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A Beautiful Interpretation Of Heaven


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#1 Countic16

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Posted 07 November 2007 - 10:32 PM

Many of you know Tolkien wrote The Lord of the Rings. Many of you might quickly realize the secularism that was introduced in the movies that was not part of the books. I had the privilege of taking a 1cr course in college discussing and reading Tolkien's works. The writings included all 3 books of LOTR, The Hobbit, as well as 3-5 of other similar books caught up in the fantasy world of Tolkien's Middle Earth. One such book is "The Sylmarillion." More on that in a minute.

Of you who have seen LOTR, you may or may not know that Tolkien was a devout Christian. A very devout Christian. A kind of devout Christian that secularists and naturalists hate to admit to a famous person being it. In his writings and letters, Tolkien had always emphasized his writings as a way to glorify God, represent spiritual battles on Earth, and place mankind in the midst of such battles. Thus how Tolkien created the structure of creatures in his Middle Earth in heirarchal rank. LOTR, when read by a Christian, and read intently to see heavenly concepts, can be a very astounding and heartrate-rising book to read! I would like to start off with one of the basics, yet short, precise, brilliant, and beautiful pieces from the book "The Sylmarillion."

The Sylmarillion is considered the book of the history of the elves prior to the events that occurred in the LOTR series. It is a very long and heavy book, much like the first 5 books of the Bible in that it describes lineages. It can be dry. However, in the very beginning of this book, there is a very glorifying piece of literature...the description of the heirachy of demi-gods and God of Middle Earth.

Top God: The One. Official Name was "Illuvatar." This figure represented God himself.

The Ainur: The Demi-Gods, representatives of Illuvatar's thoughts. These figures would represent the angels, righteous and fallen both. It may be said that more specifically, this council represented the highly ranked angels or archangels (such as Michael, Gabriel, Satan, etc). 14 in total.

The Valar: 13 of the 14 Ainur. They are given a special name because they represented the righteous Ainur, or in other words, the ones who honored Illuvatar's glory.

Melkor: The 14th Ainur not represented in the Valar. The one who resisted Illuvatar's glory, power, and dominance. He represents Satan. He also is considered the most powerful Ainur. The Syl makes this clear, but also makes clear that the extent of his power is unknown. It is made clear he has at least a little bit of each and every other Ainurs' powers, but it is not made clear as to just how much of each other Ainurs' powers he has, if not all of their powers. In this way, it represents how Satan was considered the most powerful and glorious of all the angels.

Manwe: The high priest of the council of the Valar, considered the chief of the 13, and most wise.

The Maiar: The lesser valar. Represent normal angels in heaven. They, like all of the above, rested mainly in the heavens. However, were given the opportunity to dwell on Middle Earth. Thus, we see an active role in LOTR starting from this rank. The Maiar would be considered Gandalf, Sauron, and Saruman among others not given much screen time. Sauron was considered of loyalty, the chief ranking commander for Melkor. When Melkor was captured and jailed by the Valar, Sauron took over the reigning of Melkor's ambition to dominate Middle Earth. Saruman was considered the chief council/high priest of all the Maiar, including Sauron himself.

The Istari: The specific Maiar who came to Middle Earth to battle Sauron. Specifically, this group represented Gandalf and Saruman, and a couple others I think. (Thats right, Saruman the White was aligned with the righteous, and indeed was righteous, for a very long time).

Ok so thems the basics. So here is the juicy tidbit of my post. I will not repeat the literature word for word, but I will give a light description, and leave it to you all to search out the book and read for yourself, hopefully not giving too much away in the process.

In the beginning of The Syl. Tolkien describes how Middle Earth was created. He had the Ainur sing as a choir of archangels. The music was so beautiful human ears would crush at hearing it. It glorified Illuvatar greatly. There were perfect harmonies, rhythms, and melodies all woven into perfect music. Each archangel brought glory to Illuvatar, but the chorus of them together multiplied that glory beyond measure. All of which was done at the orchestration of Illuvatar, as the maestro. One Ainur, however, wished to become the orchestrator. One Ainur began to sing discordance. One Ainur bent his will against Illuvatar to sway the other Ainur to harmonize with him and against Illuvatar. That Ainur was Melkor (Satan. Are you catching the fall of the 1/3 angels here?) Each attempt of his discourse brought a response by Illuvatar to overpower him. Each response by Illuvatar caused Melkor to try even harder to overpower Illuvatar. This went back and forth, back and forth. Think Beethoven or some other masterful symphony here. It went on and on and on, each time the music growing louder. Sometimes Melkor would successfully draw one or two other Ainur to his own discourses, and every time Illuvatar would pull them back. All the while, the chorus rang louder and louder. Melkor truly believed he was achieving his goal, and strived with all his might and ability to overcome Illuvatar. Ironically, the entire discourse that Melkor strove to differentiate from Illuvatar ended up complimenting and harmonizing the entire chorus to a "T" until it was finished. All of Melkor's work, which appeared to make discourse, in reality, added unimaginable harmony (Demonstrating how Satan's work for evil will in the end, bring ultimate glory to God). Illuvatar then commands an abrubt stop to all the music. He then shows the results of the music. The results are the creation of Middle Earth and its entire predestined course. Each discourse brought on by Melkor would represent a major war or conflict. Some of his ability to pull other Ainur into alliance with him is represented by how Saruman the White turns to evil through Sauron.

If you liked what you read, I urge you to go to a local library and check out The Syl to at least read the full version. Its much more articulate and beautiful. It really strikes me as much that the first time I read it, my heart was beating very fast and I almost teared in my eyes at how, even though the fantasy is indeed imaginary, it acts as a tribute to God and his glory.

I also urge you all to read the full LOTR series, as it has a lot to offer in terms of glory to God through subtle insinuations. I read the books before I saw the movies. I will not give away some of the parts as there might be some readers here who have not seen the movies. I seriously beg you not watch the movies prior to reading the books. You will lose a lot of edge, and gain a lot of "trash" that was placed into the movies. For instance the movies make Gandalf seem a lot more foolish than he was in books.

A neat little tidbit: Did you know that Tolkien was best friends with C.S. Louis, and that C.S. Louis became a Christian as part of Tolkien's witnessing to him?

#2 ikester7579

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Posted 08 November 2007 - 01:27 AM

I did not watch all the movies in the Lord of the Rings. But from what I saw, I saw no God in it. So I deem the books the same way.

1) What makes the movie bad?

There is really no good representation of God in it.

2) What makes the movie a promotion of evil?

There is no such thing as good evil and bad evil. The movies represent good wizards and bad wizards. From this many confused teenagers started to dabble in white witchcraft. Why not? After all the white wizards were good, correct?

lev 19:31 Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the LORD your God.

lev 20:6 And the soul that turneth after such as have familiar spirits, and after wizards, to go a whoring after them, I will even set my face against that soul, and will cut him off from among his people.

lev 20:27 A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them.

The scene where the big war was taking place. And the white wizard rode upon a white horse to lead the army. What was this a representation of? Will Christ come as a wizard on a white horse? Will His powers be from where the wizard gets his (from evil)?

Now Christ also defeated all that waged war against Him. The representation in this movie had to have people conjure up the dead who road on a ship. Now what does the bible say about speaking to the dead?

deut 18:11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.

King Saul went to a witch to speak to the Prophet Samuel which was dead. Remember what happened to him because of this? He and his sons were killed in battle the very next day.

I could go on and on with examples of how this movie and those books represent not God regardless of who wrote them. And what they believe. Now I know the justification of this will be that: It's only a movie. Which makes God just like every other god. No better than the evil they use to deceive the followers they have.

Everything in those movies was about magic. There was no mention of a divine power. And there was not even a prayer. All power was conjured up by both the supposed good side and bad side of evil.

What these movies did more than anything, was introduce our children to witchcraft. And this introduction put witchcraft in a very positive light because evil had a good and bad representation. It was shortly after these movies that witchcraft and wizardry really got going.

http://www.lasttrump...ts/tract11.html
http://biblia.com/ring/
http://www.ericbarge.../lotr.c.c.2.htm

If the Lord of the Rings was a Christian movie, how come tarrot cards were made from it? http://paganwiccan.a...r/LOTR_Deck.htm
http://www.ecauldron.com/trtlotr.php
http://everythingels...6QQsacatZ102520

Here we have the Lord of the Rings "ring" being sold on what kind of site?
http://www.newmoon.u...elvish_ring.htm
http://mywitchshop.c...ore/Rings.shtml

And to appeal to our kids even more, cartoons were made about the movie that introduced even a younger age of children to magic and witch craft.
http://www.cedmagic....-the-rings.html

And what is the most amazing thing about this movie is that so many Christians fell for it. And those who actually dabble in magic, etc... Did not have to twist one thing in the movie to make it look good for their side. Now why do you think that is?

Example: When Christ was led into temptation, and Satan was lying to try and tempt Him. He had to lie but Christ kept repeating the truth. This also happened with Eve as Satan spoke through the snake and made Eve question everything God told her about the tree of knowledge.

Evil always has to twist good in order to get it to look bad. But not one thing had to be twisted in the Lord of the Rings. Like one person on one website said: Reading the Lord of the Rings was like reading a manual on magic.

#3 Countic16

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Posted 08 November 2007 - 06:34 AM

Wow you took it way out of proportion. You do realize the difference between witchcraft and fantasy entertainment, correct? Would you say that I, a Christian who can testify has never dabbled in witchcraft, have dabbled in witchcraft regardless of what I say because I played a card game called "Magic: The Gathering" which was a cool little card game based around having creatures and spells to attack and kill your opponents, other players with their own decks? Are you seriously equating gaming and entertainment with actual witchcraft?

Look, do you refuse to acknowledge that Tolkien was a devout Christian who purposely made a fantasy world for strictly entertainment and reading pleasure, dabbled in witchcraft? When I say Tolkien was a devout Christian, I mean he was scholarly, theological. With Tolkien's knowledge of the Bible, C.S. Louis was able to follow in his footsteps and create some of the best apologetics known to mankind.

Am I arguing a defense for those who dabble in witchcraft as a result of watching LOTR? Certainly not. Infact, I hardly believe LOTR caused any person to dabble into witchcraft. I believe their heart's desire was to already dabble in it to begin with. Either way, the blame does not rest on the shoulders of a book. Thats like blaming guns for deaths. The true blame for death is sin and the evil heart of mankind. Nowhere does the book condone witchcraft or say to children "you need to become a witch!" Gandalf represented Christ, for jiminy's sake! How is Gandalf doing miracles evil, when it is portraying Christ's miracles? You are doing the same thing the Pharisees did, call Christ evil, and his works evil. Honestly, you sound like my exmanager at a food joint I worked at in high school. She called me a devil child because I played a simple innocent game that had nothing to do with witchcraft, taking fantasy and entertainment to an entirely different level.

#4 ikester7579

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Posted 09 November 2007 - 01:32 AM

Wow you took it way out of proportion.  You do realize the difference between witchcraft and fantasy entertainment, correct?  Would you say that I, a Christian who can testify has never dabbled in witchcraft, have dabbled in witchcraft regardless of what I say because I played a card game called "Magic: The Gathering" which was a cool little card game based around having creatures and spells to attack and kill your opponents, other players with their own decks?  Are you seriously equating gaming and entertainment with actual witchcraft?


It does not matter what "I" think about the movie, it is what God thinks. God's word is pretty clear on stuff like this. Entertainement is "carnal justification". If I say I like to watch a witch cast spells on people because "I" consider it entertainment. Does that make it not a sin to do? "I" do not determine what sin is, God's word does.

Look, do you refuse to acknowledge that Tolkien was a devout Christian who purposely made a fantasy world for strictly entertainment and reading pleasure, dabbled in witchcraft?  When I say Tolkien was a devout Christian, I mean he was scholarly, theological.  With Tolkien's knowledge of the Bible, C.S. Louis was able to follow in his footsteps and create some of the best apologetics known to mankind.


Then it is all the more reason that his books should have focused more on glorifying God, and the divine power of God. Where do you think those ideas came from for those books? Do you actually think they were God inspired?
Do you think that God would consider Tolkien's work a kingdom work that brought may to salvation? Or would you say that it represented the enemy in a more powerful positive light?

Also, do you think Tolkien will recieve a crown in heaven for his work in those stories?

Am I arguing a defense for those who dabble in witchcraft as a result of watching LOTR?  Certainly not.


Those books prove that Toilkien most of had some faith problems. And he may even have dabbled in what you say. Many Christians are drawn to other powers, not always by choice. But a lot of times through the deception of others.

Infact, I hardly believe LOTR caused any person to dabble into witchcraft.


Again, carnal justification. What you or I believe has no bearing on the matter. Research it and look it up. Because if you don't because you like the movies more than you like to learn the truth about them. Then you will be considered someone who might have denied truth and there will be not excuse on judgement day.

jas 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

Knowledge of sin makes it a sin that cannot be covered if we perfer it instead of truth. Do you refuse to research this? And for what reason? And will that reason be accepted by God? Because it does not matter where you could convince me, or anyone else here. But it does matter where you could convince God.

Example:

God: Why did you watch those movies, and make it sound okay for others to watch them when you knew that they basically promoted witchcraft and wizards?

You: God, do you not know the difference between fantasy entertainement and witchcraft?

God: Yes I do, I wrote the book on it. I also gave it as a choice for man to choose good or evil. Why did you choose evil?

Also, the word fantasy has more connections to evil than it has to do with God.

I believe their heart's desire was to already dabble in it to begin with.  Either way, the blame does not rest on the shoulders of a book.  Thats like blaming guns for deaths.  The true blame for death is sin and the evil heart of mankind.  Nowhere does the book condone witchcraft or say to children "you need to become a witch!"  Gandalf represented Christ, for jiminy's sake!  How is Gandalf doing miracles evil, when it is portraying Christ's miracles?  You are doing the same thing the Pharisees did, call Christ evil, and his works evil.  Honestly, you sound like my exmanager at a food joint I worked at in high school.  She called me a devil child because I played a simple innocent game that had nothing to do with witchcraft, taking fantasy and entertainment to an entirely different level.

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Are we to fantasize about God? Are we to fantasize about Jesus?

Also, type in the word fantasy into the google images section. Now do you see anything Godly?

#5 Countic16

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Posted 09 November 2007 - 01:53 PM

"It does not matter what "I" think about the movie, it is what God thinks." -IK

Ok, then it should be easy to settle...the stuff isn't witchcraft. The Bible has nothing to say against it. If you think otherwise, I ask that you please cite scripture stating that playing imaginary games has *real* harmful powers, and invokes *real* witchcraft. As far as scripture states, only *real* evocation of witchcraft is banned.

"If I say I like to watch a witch cast spells on people because "I" consider it entertainment. Does that make it not a sin to do?" -IK

It absolutely is a sin. If a *real* witch casts a *real* spell, it has a *real* effect. If a person is playing a simple board game or card game for pure entertainment, knowing that they are strictly just playing in fantasy and there is no reality to it, then your question does not address that person. If you say you like to watch a person immitate a witch by pretending to cast a spell (but not really casting one...and blatantly obvious that they aren't)...then it is not a sin by definition.

"Does that make it not a sin to do? "I" do not determine what sin is, God's word does." -IK

Right, and no where in scripture does it say its a sin to pretend to be a witch or pretend to cast fake spells.

For one second, let us think the consequences if your line of reasoning were correct. Mickey mouse would be evil because he once wore a wizard's costume. SpongeBob Squarepants and countless other cartoons would be blatantly demonic because of their constant defying of universal laws of physics, which obviously must be the result of witchcraft. Halloween would definitely be out of the question. Actors in plays would be demonic for wearing costumes, thus invoking shapeshifting even though they were just costumes. The sky is the limit when using that line of logic. Heck, monopoly would be demonic because you use little figurines and fake money that represents real money.

"Then it is all the more reason that his books should have focused more on glorifying God, and the divine power of God" -IK

And if you read the books, and Tolkien's personal letters...you would know that that is EXACTLY what the books do. They glorify the Christian God.

"Do you think that God would consider Tolkien's work a kingdom work that brought may to salvation?" -IK

Absolutely. If that boggles you, feel free to ask me why, and I will try to dig up a few particulars.

"Or would you say that it represented the enemy in a more powerful positive light?" -IK

Only as much as a slandering Pharisee would like to argue that Christ represented the enemy. Tolkien's literature is completely devoted to depicting the power of Good over Evil, not a lesser Evil over a greater Evil.

"Also, do you think Tolkien will recieve a crown in heaven for his work in those stories?" -IK

Its pretty hard to figure out what people would get crowns in heaven for. I'd say there is a shot at it.

"Those books prove that Toilkien most of had some faith problems." -IK

No, they prove you have some non-Biblical issues with the books. Let me re-iterate....Tolkien was the witness to C.S. Louis' salvation, and his MENTOR. C.S. Louis came to be a great witness through his literature to many mens' salvation by apologetics. Both men were astounding Christians. To say Tolkien had faith issues is to say Martin Luther had faith issues, or Paul had faith issues. I mean, yes, we all have some issues and aren't perfect. But you are trying to cast a doubt on one of the more pious men of our century....

"Knowledge of sin makes it a sin that cannot be covered if we perfer it instead of truth. Do you refuse to research this?" -IK

Nope, I don't deny that. But you have a canyon-sized gap to bridge before you can use that as literature to say that blatantly faking wizardry is the same as actually committing it. You need to show scripture that says "faking wizardry is as bad as committing wizardry itself." Yes, THAT specific. Christ made specifics on its bad to even lust from the heart, let alone act on it. Why did he not make such an example against fantasy books and children's games?

"But it does matter where you could convince God." -IK

Well, I've got two major sources to look to to figure it out: The Word, and The Spirit. I've never felt an ounce of conviction that such things were sinful. And to make sure it wasn't my heart playing a trick on me, The Word also never speaks of such things being sinful. The scripture you have represented thus far does not address the issue. It addresses true, intentful wizardry. It does not address fake, blatantly fantasy playfulness and entertainment.

*Response to your God/You dialogue*

God: Why did you persecute individuals for the simple harmless entertainment they had in watching movies that never promoted witchcraft and wizardry as actual powers that should be harnessed by common folk? (Notice how none of the commonfolk in LOTR have such powers...only those who represent angels or higher have such powers)

You: But but, its the devil! How could you let such things be allowed!

God: Those people did not commit any witchcraft or wizardry. They did not invoke any spirits. They simply played a little harmless game that had absolutely no realism to it. Why do you choose evil in persecuting your brothers?

"Are we to fantasize about God? Are we to fantasize about Jesus?" -IK

Sure, why not. Theres no scripture in the Bible against it.

"Also, type in the word fantasy into the google images section. Now do you see anything Godly?" -IK

Thats about as dumb as "if God wanted me to fly he woulda put wings on my shoulders." A better refutation would be to point out scripture using the word fantasy (or anything similar) and stating whether it was innately evil or not. Again, you find nothing. But how about this....type in the word "love" into an internet search engine and see what you come up with. Are you about to say that love is an evil word?

Christianity is a religion of "Do's" not a religion of "Don'ts" It is a religion of freedom, not a religion of bondage.

#6 ikester7579

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Posted 09 November 2007 - 02:02 PM

Can you supply any scripture that says that if the act is fake it's not a sin? Because if this is your reasoning, then books about it can be written to teach people how to. But since the book is not actually doing it, then it's ok.

Do you believe that the eyes are the gateway to the soul?

You see, how we understand something is how we are convinced.

mt 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

What the ears hear, and what the eyes see, they should understand in their heart. And what they understand in their heart can convert. So when they go see the movie:

1) what is it that they see?
2) What is it that they hear?
3) And what is it that they can be convinced of and converted to?

#7 Countic16

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Posted 09 November 2007 - 02:51 PM

"Can you supply any scripture that says that if the act is fake it's not a sin? Because if this is your reasoning, then books about it can be written to teach people how to" -IK

Can you supply any scripture that says that riding a bike is not a sin? Because using your line of reasoning (that in order for something to not be sinful it better be stated in the Bible), there are a LOT of activities that could be deemed sinful. Instead, the much more logical, and reasonable method to determining sinfulness on this subject is to find scripture stating that unintentful imaginations are sinful.

"Because if this is your reasoning, then books about it can be written to teach people how to" -IK

No. False. Flat out wrong. Writing a book on how to *actually* commit witchcraft and wizardry is still a *real* thing...not imaginative. If a person grabs a plastic toy wand, points it at the TV, and says "abra cadabra!" as a joke/fantasy...its hardly comparable to a manual that depicts exactly how one should cast a *real* spell. Your reasoning is analogical to asking a child how to build skyscrapers by using legos, and then saying "See! This kid truly understands the mechanics of building skyscrapers!" Totally different...

"So when they go see the movie:

1) what is it that they see?
2) What is it that they hear?
3) And what is it that they can be convinced of and converted to?" -IK

They see actors representing authority figures that they themselves will never be able to become in terms of power, might, and magic. They see those actors doing acts of goodness and kindness that they themselves can emulate. They see that those characters of those books represent Christ and the angels, and the powers that such beings do, infact, have. They see said characters preaching to the rest of the characters of the movie that "no, you do not have my powers....but more importantly, you can do the acts of kindness that I do...without my powers."

#8 ikester7579

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Posted 10 November 2007 - 01:36 AM

I guess you do not understand spiritual warfare. You must think that everything is okay as long as you see it that way. Do you know what opening a door to evil means?

I doubt you do or you would not be defending the movie like you do. The movie opens the door to what is called interest in what the movie promotes. This interest makes one wonder about the fantasy of wizards and witches. Once they have interest, the door for Satan to now work is wide open. Those who are not mature in Christ will fall for it. And then begin to dabble in it.

Your lack of knowledge in this area makes you not see what these movies can do. So to continue this back and forth arguing is not going to solve anything. And it's going no where quick.

So I will close this thread unless you have something to say that does not go along the same lines as what this thread is currently doing. And I also ask that this promotion of this movie not be brought up again. This is because you refuse to see what is clearly all over the internet about this. You cannot make a new reality by ignoring evidence that is currently out there just because you disagree with it. No more than I could.

So what say you?

#9 Countic16

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Posted 10 November 2007 - 01:43 PM

"I guess you do not understand spiritual warfare. You must think that everything is okay as long as you see it that way. Do you know what opening a door to evil means?" -IK

I do understand spiritual warfare. I do not think that everything is ok as long as I see it that way. I do know what opening a door to evil means. An example of opening a door to evil would be a person purposely and intentively being active in a (real) ritual, in which the ritual itself was specifically and intentionally designed, to give opportunity for a demonic angel to make its presence.

Do you know the difference between a purposeful, intentive, specifically designed ritual and a simple, fake, not real portal to evil, board game?

Do you realize that by saying there is no difference, you give yourself the opportunity (not scripture, not God, not Satan...just you) to judge others for *any* activity that they participate in? You could take it even to the extent that a church picnic gathering in a park was a demonic ritual. They might have been worshipping God, praying to God, but because their intentions don't matter, and they performed a ritual...they must have been committing a demonic ritual. That ENTIRE line of reasoning is bogus and you know it.

"The movie opens the door to what is called interest in what the movie promotes. This interest makes one wonder about the fantasy of wizards and witches. Once they have interest, the door for Satan to now work is wide open. Those who are not mature in Christ will fall for it. And then begin to dabble in it."

Thus another flaw of a person who believes salvation can be lost. Ever thought that Grace = Protection?

John 17:12 "While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled"

Romans 8:29-30 "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

Ephesians 4:30 "And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption."

Philippians 1:5-6 "For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now; being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ"

There is also scripture describing the fact that we live in a carnal world. We may not be "of" it, but we are "in" it. To think that a simple movie that is hardly anything in comparison to other sins that lead to open doors is the worst of all things to ever consider....is childish. ITS JUST A MOVIE. And one with a positive theme at that. Though, I do understand how much of the allegory, and beauty and glory to God from the books was lost when Hollywood turned it into a movie. But your reaction is way off base. It is a reaction of fear, not reason. The movie and books themselves were not a proactive portal to Satanism. The typical mind that watches the movie will not generally proactivate to desire Satanism. There is NO issue there. Are there people who take it to the next step? Probably. But I guarantee you it wasn't because of the story. It was because they were already bent on dabbling in Satanism. You cannot assert the claims you make because they are beyond extreme. If I watch the movie "Herby", am I under the influence of Satan to believe that cars will come to life? And that each car I get into will throw me into a fit of insanity trying to cast spells to make the car talk? No! The idea is ludicrous.

Ultimately, why are you letting yourself be thrown into irrational, fearful behavior over something miniscule? You do not see scripture showing such fearfulness towards games and things of children's imaginations, do you? Nope. Infact, your irrational fear of evil is against scripture:

Psalms 23:4 "Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me."

A saved individual need not fear the evil of this world around him.

Proverbs 1:33 "But whoso hearkeneth unto me shall dwell safely, and shall be quiet from fear of evil."

Proverbs 19:23 "The fear of the LORD tendeth to life: and he that hath it shall abide satisfied; he shall not be visited with evil."

IK...I say to you...do not fear evil. It hath no grasp on you. I say you respond to scripture, and ask you provide scripture showing such docile things as a threat.

I say to the rest, if you wish to talk and discuss more about how LOTR glories God, feel free to email me about it and discuss it there, if it is not allowed here.

#10 Countic16

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Posted 10 November 2007 - 02:00 PM

Actually, I have one more point to bring up. I was not saved all my life. I became saved at age 22. I played Magic: The Gathering from age 14-22+. If MTG, like LOTR, is such a huge portal for evil to present itself, how come I was never once manipulated? I was not even saved at that time. Heck, how in the world would evil allow such an opportunity to just pass it by, that I should ever consider salvation down the road?

There is only one answer...evil has not nearly the amount of power as you might think (yes it has some, but nothing remotely close to God), and MTG...was not a portal. Evil surely would have at least attempted to manipulate me at least ONCE in every 50 or so games I played every week. It never did in over 10 years...Infact, of the dozens of people I have played MTG with, and of the dozens of people I have watched LOTR with not one, no not a single one, has ever been approached by evil as a result.

Is a man who has s@x with his wife sinning, because he runs the possibility of temptation of thinking of another woman when he has s@x (all men have that possibility)? No! The argument to avoid a normally non-sinful act because sin might resolve from its action is unreasonable, and anti-Biblical. There is not a single act in all of the world that man could commit without running the risk of sinning during the process.

#11 Countic16

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Posted 10 November 2007 - 10:47 PM

I've been searching around to see what all the hype was with the stuff you were proclaiming about LOTR that contrasted my concepts of LOTR prior to posting. I search for "LOTR + witchcraft" to see what came up. I came across a CAP site, whatever that means, but basically rates movies. It had a decent degree of objectivity to it in terms of rating certain things, but also some bias and lack of understanding of the movie/books itself.

I guess the main issue that the CAP site, as well as some of the others has is that "good is using wizardry to fight evil, and thus good is using evil to fight evil." Perhaps this negativeness wouldn't be nearly as strong if good characters were not using wizardry to fight evil, but if evil used wizardry it might not be so bad? I'm not entirely sure. If it is, though, then its good to remind that the only "good" characters that use wizardry by their own power are those that have a rank equivalent to or greater than angels. Any other ranks lower than the rank of angels have no such powers or abilities unless granted them by some sort of physical item (all such items in LOTR are created by angelic+ characters). Incase you might think that a bad thing...the use of said items, in all cases, presents the exposure and potential to become devoured by evil and thus emphasis is placed on the non-angelic characters to never use such items. So really, LOTR matches up with the Bible quite well when talking about the subject of wizardry, and (if any subliminal message exists) teaches children to stay away from such crafts.

The second site I visited that was calling LOTR demonic...was way off base in calling Tolkien and C.S. Lewis non-Christians and promoters of Satanism. The site gave so many false facts and appalling assumptions, claiming that Tolkien and C.S. Lewis never even wrote literature beneficial to Christianity, and then attacking their own personal lives. It was so distasteful that the quoted "evidence of demonic emphasis" cases were probably fabricated. It basically amounted to a site that was not worthy of respect nor belief. Heck, it reminded me of those chick tracts that do such a horrible job of witnessing, and sometimes such a great job of brainwashing or fabricating lies.

In the end, if you wish not to discuss the movie, citing the scripture talking about meat eaters and non-meat eaters would be an appropriate means. If a Christian be uncomfortable with a discussion, then I will lay it to rest.

#12 Countic16

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Posted 10 November 2007 - 11:14 PM

I actually found a site that gives a great description of why LOTR promotes the Bible message, and not confounds it. It gives a basic summary of the plot, and the intent and actions of all the characters, specifying the point that wizardry is not to be dabbled in. Take two minutes to read it. It will clear up a lot of the crap that is misleading when reading the other slanderous sites.

http://daisyshobbith....com/story.html

#13 ikester7579

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Posted 11 November 2007 - 12:34 AM

Do you think I got all those ideas from reading websites? In my personal experience in watching the movie. I could actually feel the evil from the movie as I watched it. I had to actually force myself to watch it. I felt sick inside that so many would promote this as being Godly. When a divine power was never present or represented anywhere in that movie.

So I knew that it was wrong even before the books and websites came out about it. They just confirmed it.

But since what I feel is implied as slanderous crap, I will close the thread. There is no need for it to continue. Don't bring this subject up again.




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