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#1 ikester7579

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Posted 27 February 2008 - 11:53 PM

I have been working on a new theory of why the earth dates old but yet the bible time-line says it's only 6,000 years old. So far, no one has been able to shoot any holes in it. Biblically, or scientifically. Unless you count those who would call me names, from other forums and blogs, for even bringing it up LOL. But here it is in a nut shell and as condensed as I can explain it.


Why does the earth "date" 4.6 billion years old if the bible time-line claims that it was created 6,000 years ago?

Does dating something really "prove" that this "actual" time even passed? No, it does not. The only actual recorded record of time passage is the bible. The fossil and geologic column is only a "age date" record, not a "time passage record".

Why is this important? In eternity, time is not connected to age. Why? Age is a direct process of death, it's "only" goal for all life is death. And death did not exist until the first sin. It is already clear that on the first day that time existed. Because how could you measure a day unless there was something to measure it with?

Why is eternity important for creation? Sin did not happen until the end of the 6th day during creation. So everything up to that point was created in eternal laws, which are laws that do not contain age or death. But time can exist and is a separate process from age.

The process of age did not exist until man sinned. So time existed by itself, and when man sinned age was added to the time process.

So basically God created "all" things already fully formed (aged) in the 6 days of creation that were before the first sin.

Example: If I build a house using lumber from a old house that is already 200 years old. Even though I built the house a year ago, is the house 1 year old or 200 years old? If you want it's creation date, it would be 1 year ago. If you want it's age date (carbon dating), it would be 200 years old. So in this sense, both answers are correct.

This is the same way the earth was created. God created it using material that was 4.6 billion years old. But it's creation date was 6,000 years ago. Simple? So far.

The rest is my opinion....

Now for the reason the earth seems to have an aged history that is buried.

If any of you have ever read the book of Job, you will see how Satan is allowed to work in certain bounderies that are set by God. Now the flood was done because of man's sin. Sin allows Satan to have more power to do what he wants to mankind. So when the flood happened, it was man reaping what he had sown which was evil. And because God allowed Satan to do this. Satan used the flood to set up a fake time passage (geologic column). One since the day of it's discovery has challenged God's creation on "every issue".

From this ideas like:
1) old earth.
2) evolution.
3) Big bang.

etc... have emerged from this. Each one denies something about God's creation. And when further investigated, deny a whole lot more about God's word. This is how so many things from one event (the flood) has done so much harm to God's word.

From the destruction of the flood because of our choice of evil over God. Satan is able to gain such power to challenged God on every issue. But, it is our choice on whom we shall believe. Because choice is what God is all about.

#2 digitalartist

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Posted 29 February 2008 - 10:34 AM

a couple of things.

Age Date and Time passage are the same thing. For example, say that a man named Fred is 50 years old. He has an age date of 50 years but it also indicates that 50 years of time passed for him to reach that age.


Your comment about God using material already 4.6 billion years old and Satan setting up the "fake time passage (geologic column)" are contradictory. If Satan set up the fake time passage, then God could not have used material that was 4.6 billion years old and if God did use materials that were 4.6 billion years old then it could not be a fake time passage created by Satan.

#3 ikester7579

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Posted 01 March 2008 - 01:55 AM

a couple of things.

Age Date and Time passage are the same thing.  For example, say that a man named Fred is 50 years old.  He has an age date of 50 years but it also indicates that 50 years of time passed for him to reach that age.
Your comment about God using material already 4.6 billion years old and Satan setting up the "fake time passage (geologic column)" are contradictory.  If Satan set up the fake time passage, then God could not have used material that was 4.6 billion years old and if God did use materials that were 4.6 billion years old then it could not be a fake time passage created by Satan.

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In the creation, were man and woman created with or without age? They sinned on the very same day they were created. So did 1 day old babies sin and get thrown out of the garden? Were one day old babies able to speak?
etc...

Now since God created life already aged, why not the rest of the universe as well?

#4 The Debatinator

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Posted 01 March 2008 - 08:42 PM

I was unaware that scripture said that the very same day they were created they sinned.

#5 ikester7579

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Posted 02 March 2008 - 01:33 AM

I was unaware that scripture said that the very same day they were created they sinned.

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Genesis 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

How do you create something with generations the same day they were created?


It took me a while to figure this out (that they sinned on the same day that they were created). Genesis chapter two reverts back to day six the creation of man because God said there was no man to till the ground.

Genesis 2:5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.

This means that chapter two was going back to day six just before the creation of man. The rest of the chapter deals with this in more detail.

Chapter three never mentions "any" time passage. God spoke to both man and woman the moment they were created which means they were created with comprehension skills. Another sign of being created with age. Now the bible does not mention days unless it is also going to mention what day. As it did all through creation. So what does it say about the day they sinned?

Genesis 3:8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.

Cool of the day does not mean another day. It's a different "part" of the day. Which also means it was the same day they were created.

This also fits with the different meanings of the number six.
1) Six is the number of man.
2) 666 is the anti-christ.
3) And six has several things to do with sin.

All things in the universe contain these three subatomic particles. Protons, neutrons, and electrons (trinity). Even quarks form a trinity inside some of these particles as some contain 3 quarks.

Man is considered carbon based. Carbon contains 6 protons, 6 neutrons, and 6 electrons (666).

Now the evolutionists will try and claim that the real numbers are 616, not 666. I have not seen any "real" evidence to back this up. And it would seem that only those who are against things in God's word are the only ones claiming this. Which means there is an agenda. And possibly an agenda to lie to discredit the word. Because once you don't believe that the word is not true, then you can justify lying about what it says. Because lying about what you believe to already be a lie has no moral feelings to it.

My basic rule of thumb when debating is that when someone implies or says the bible is a lie. From that point forward I do not trust any claim they make about what the bible says or means. For why would they feel a need to tell a truth about something they deem as a lie already?

#6 rbarclay

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Posted 02 March 2008 - 03:27 PM

Genesis 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

How do you create something with generations the same day they were created?
It took me a while to figure this out (that they sinned on the same day that they were created). Genesis chapter two reverts back to day six the creation of man because God said there was no man to till the ground.

Genesis 2:5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.

This means that chapter two was going back to day six just before the creation of man. The rest of the chapter deals with this in more detail.

Chapter three never mentions "any" time passage. God spoke to both man and woman the moment they were created which means they were created with comprehension skills. Another sign of being created with age. Now the bible does not mention days unless it is also going to mention what day. As it did all through creation. So what does it say about the day they sinned?

Genesis 3:8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.

Cool of the day does not mean another day. It's a different "part" of the day. Which also means it was the same day they were created.

This also fits with the different meanings of the number six.
1) Six is the number of man.
2) 666 is the anti-christ.
3) And six has several things to do with sin.

All things in the universe contain these three subatomic particles. Protons, neutrons, and electrons (trinity). Even quarks form a trinity inside some of these particles as some contain 3 quarks.

Man is considered carbon based. Carbon contains 6 protons, 6 neutrons, and 6 electrons (666).

Now the evolutionists will try and claim that the real numbers are 616, not 666. I have not seen any "real" evidence to back this up. And it would seem that only those who are against things in God's word are the only ones claiming this. Which means there is an agenda. And possibly an agenda to lie to discredit the word. Because once you don't believe that the word is not true, then you can justify lying about what it says. Because lying about what you believe to already be a lie has no moral feelings to it.

My basic rule of thumb when debating is that when someone implies or says the bible is a lie. From that point forward I do not trust any claim they make about what the bible says or means. For why would they feel a need to tell a truth about something they deem as a lie already?

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ikester7579

The creation account in Genesis 1 and 2 are talking about two different perspectives in the same event. Genesis 1 tells us about God (Elohim) creating everything in an orderly fashion. Elohim literally means Mighty ones at bind with an oath. This can be seen when you read day 1,2,3,4, etc. It also speaks to Elohim binding order in nature, for example, in the genetic code He says everything will reproduce after its kind, to the he set the seasons in order, etc. This is how the Ones that bind created with an oath the heavens and the earth and all that is within them.

Genesis 2 now speaks of creation is a different light. In verse two you read that creation will now be told in the light of Jehovah God. Jehovah is the name Moses is instructed to tell the Hebrews if they ask who sent you at the burning bush. It means I Am and speaks of the covenant side of the Godhead. This is why you do not read the full account of creation only that part of which vital to know in regards to the covenant making God in creation. Literally the name of God used in verse 4 says “I Am of the Might Ones that bind with an oath.” This is speaking specially of Jesus’ role in creation He is the covenant making person in the Trinity. Certainly Jesus was there in chapter 1 it is that chapter 2 is giving Him the preeminence. This account of creation talks about what is referred to as the Edenic Covenant; placing (literally put him to rest) man in, tells him to tend it, and gives the first moral law, that is, eat of everything you see expect. It is why from chapter 2 on you read about God making covenants with man. When ever you read Jehovah, LORD, or GOD in the Old Testament it refers to I Am.

Writing more than one account of a subject was common for the Hebrews because each account gave a different perspective on the events talked about. This can be seen in their Historical books in the bible.

With that little bit of background we come to the word “generations.” In their commentary Keil & Delitzsch write this about the word generations:

“The history of those who are begotten or the account of what happened to them and what they performed. Just as the tholedoth of Noah, for example, do not mention his birth, but contain his history and the birth of his sons; so the tholedoth of the heavens and the earth do not describe the origin of the universe, but what happened to the heavens and the earth after their creation.”

In John Gill’s Expository of the Entire Bible we read this:

“Gen 2:4 - These are the generations of the heavens and the earth, when they were created,.... That is, the above account, delivered in the preceding chapter, is a history of the production of the heavens and earth, and of all things in them; the creation of them being a kind of generation, and the day of their creation a sort of birthday.”

The above account refers to God creating in Genesis 1.
There is no evidence that man sinned the same day he was created that can be found in Scripture. Time lapses in the Bible without mentioning how much time went by is common. For instances Abraham was told to go to land that God would show him we are not given the amount of time it took to get there. Yet the Biblical account tells us he was told to go the next couple of verses we read that he is in Egypt. Now we know he could not do that in one day so we can safely assume some time past before he got there. It is the same with when man sinned we do not know exactly when or how much time past but we do know and read he sinned.

As far as your theory of day age and time passing and the built in appearance of age is not new this was suggested by Dr. Charles Stanley a few decades ago. His theory was that man was created as an adult no childhood. The problem with this theory is the doctrine of Creation ex nihilo. That is God created everything out of nothing so that means that there was nothing to use that would appear to be aged. He did not use old materials to create the earth. It was brand new from the start. As far as earth dating back to 4.6 million years yet still is young? I would have to ask first how do you know how old something should look if you have no references or comparisons to use in this estimation. Also we now that radiometric dating is unreliable. There are varieties of studies by creation scientists that are proving evidence that the earth is not as old as evolutionists think.

When it comes to man God used the dust of the earth remember the earth at this time was new and it was good. So man was new and good. The Hebrews believe this dust is actually the fine clay used by potters. This belief can be seen in their references to man and clay in Job 33: 6, Is. 64: 8, and Romans 9: 211 – 23. Man is a three dimensional being; body the dust of the earth, soul that intangible part that makes us uniquely individual and the spirit that which God breathed into us.

Bob Barclay

#7 ikester7579

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Posted 02 March 2008 - 07:51 PM

ikester7579

The creation account in Genesis 1 and 2 are talking about two different perspectives in the same event.  Genesis 1 tells us about God (Elohim) creating everything in an orderly fashion. Elohim literally means Mighty ones at bind with an oath. This can be seen when you read day 1,2,3,4, etc. It also speaks to Elohim binding order in nature, for example, in the genetic code He says everything will reproduce after its kind, to the he set the seasons in order, etc. This is how the Ones that bind created with an oath the heavens and the earth and all that is within them.

Genesis 2 now speaks of creation is a different light. In verse two you read that creation will now be told in the light of Jehovah God. Jehovah is the name Moses is instructed to tell the Hebrews if they ask who sent you at the burning bush. It means I Am and speaks of the covenant side of the Godhead. This is why you do not read the full account of creation only that part of which vital to know in regards to the covenant making God in creation.  Literally the name of God used in verse 4 says “I Am of the Might Ones that bind with an oath.” This is speaking specially of Jesus’ role in creation He is the covenant making person in the Trinity. Certainly Jesus was there in chapter 1 it is that chapter 2 is giving Him the preeminence. This account of creation talks about what is referred to as the Edenic Covenant; placing (literally put him to rest) man in, tells him to tend it, and gives the first moral law, that is, eat of everything you see expect. It is why from chapter 2 on you read about God making covenants with man. When ever you read Jehovah, LORD, or GOD in the Old Testament it refers to I Am.

Writing more than one account of a subject was common for the Hebrews because each account gave a different perspective on the events talked about.  This can be seen in their Historical books in the bible.

With that little bit of background we come to the word “generations.” In their commentary Keil & Delitzsch write this about the word generations:

“The history of those who are begotten or the account of what happened to them and what they performed. Just as the tholedoth of Noah, for example, do not mention his birth, but contain his history and the birth of his sons; so the tholedoth of the heavens and the earth do not describe the origin of the universe, but what happened to the heavens and the earth after their creation.”

In John Gill’s Expository of the Entire Bible we read this:

“Gen 2:4 - These are the generations of the heavens and the earth, when they were created,.... That is, the above account, delivered in the preceding chapter, is a history of the production of the heavens and earth, and of all things in them; the creation of them being a kind of generation, and the day of their creation a sort of birthday.”

The above account refers to God creating in Genesis 1.
There is no evidence that man sinned the same day he was created that can be found in Scripture. Time lapses in the Bible without mentioning how much time went by is common. For instances Abraham was told to go to land that God would show him we are not given the amount of time it took to get there. Yet the Biblical account tells us he was told to go the next couple of verses we read that he is in Egypt. Now we know he could not do that in one day so we can safely assume some time past before he got there. It is the same with when man sinned we do not know exactly when or how much time past but we do know and read he sinned.

As far as your theory of day age and time passing and the built in appearance of age is not new this was suggested by Dr. Charles Stanley a few decades ago.  His theory was that man was created as an adult no childhood. The problem with this theory is the doctrine of Creation ex nihilo.  That is God created everything out of nothing so that means that there was nothing to use that would appear to be aged. He did not use old materials to create the earth.  It was brand new from the start. As far as earth dating back to 4.6 million years yet still is young? I would have to ask first how do you know how old something should look if you have no references or comparisons to use in this estimation. Also we now that radiometric dating is unreliable. There are varieties of studies by creation scientists that are proving evidence that the earth is not as old as evolutionists think.

When it comes to man God used the dust of the earth remember the earth at this time was new and it was good. So man was new and good. The Hebrews believe this dust is actually the fine clay used by potters. This belief can be seen in their references to man and clay in Job 33: 6, Is. 64: 8, and Romans 9: 211 – 23. Man is a three dimensional being; body the dust of the earth, soul that intangible part that makes us uniquely individual and the spirit that which God breathed into us. 

Bob Barclay

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This nice, but there is "one" problem with the whole idea. Does anything age in eternity? If so, how does something age but not die?

Aging only has one goal, and that goal is death of life. And decay of everything else involved.

Adam and Eve, were they created to live for ever? Or was it sin that brought death into their lives? It was sin of course. So they were created before sin which means they were created to live forever. Living forever means you live where eternity "can exist". This is why God could walk among them, and did not have to use a burning bush, or a Holy of Hollies place to meet with man. Which means that before sin this was Heaven on earth.

So being eternity, when would man age if in eternity you cannot age?

If things needed to age and die, then things would not have been created, they would have been birthed. But birthing, and the pains that go along with it, did not happen until man sinned.

Genesis 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

Don't believe that generations of heaven were made in the day the heavens were created? If the generations were of life and not time, then God's word would have said: Generations of man. Which would have pointed to time passage that included the aging and man reproducing generations. But, the Generations point only to heaven. Not to life.

And it also points directly at two things: heaven and earth. There are three heavens.

2cor 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

These heavens are:
1) The physical heaven (where we are).
2) Where Satan and the fallen angels are, which was created when the first like was separated to created darkness. Which is a spiritual heaven
3) where God is.

So one day one, the physical heaven was created and the earth was created within it.

So what happened on that same day?

Genesis 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

In the day they were created, generations were added. Why use the word generations? What is the geologic column? Is it not evidence of a passage of ages? For if the whole earth was created as one age, then generations of ages would not be needed. So different parts of the earth were aged differently. You cannot put that into a more understandable word then to use the word generations.

Generations of heaven and earth are generations of space (heaven) and matter (earth).

1) Do the things created in space have generation of time? Yes, because they are not all of the same time periods.

2) Do the things created in the earth have generations of time? Yes, the evidence is the geologic column.

Generations: are periods of time.
Geologic column shows periods of time through it's layers.
Space shows periods of time through the different ages of things within it.

So we have generations of earth. Evidence: Geologic column.
Then we have generations of heaven (space). Evidence: Things in space are of different ages.

Need more evidence? There are two phrases in God's word as a reference to which time something was done or referred to.

1) Of old.
2) Of old time.

Of old is from time eternal (before sin):
ps 93:2 Thy throne is established of old: thou art from everlasting

The term "of old" is of time eternal. Does it apply to the earth and how it was created?
ps 102:25 Of old hast thou laid the foundation Of the earth: and the heavens are the work Of thy hands.

Of old time is a referrence to actual time and age passage (after sin):
deut 19:14 Thou shalt not remove thy neighbor's landmark, which they of old time have set in thine inheritance, which thou shalt inherit in the land that the LORD thy God giveth thee to possess it.

So if you use this you can also determine some things.

Who were the Sons of God that went into the daughters of men, and where did they come from?

gen 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

The reference: of old. Shows that the Sons of God came from the eternal side of time. Which means they were angels. Now which angels could sin? The fallen ones.

If you would like to do a study on this, just do some searches on the terms: "of old" and "of old time". It makes things much clearer knowing what the phrases are referring to.

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Posted 03 March 2008 - 07:25 AM

i thought that all live was carbon based?

#9 ikester7579

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Posted 03 March 2008 - 07:32 AM

i thought that all live was carbon based?

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What would that have to do with living forever? You are either in eternity or not.

#10 rbarclay

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Posted 03 March 2008 - 08:01 AM

i thought that all live was carbon based?

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When speaking of the physical or earthly life you are now talking about carbon based life forms. This is because mankind is made of the dust of the earth Genesis 2: 7.

However, when you talk about spirit life you are now talking spirit based life forms Proverbs 20: 27.

There is also a third part that is the soul. This is the intangible cognitive part of mankind that makes them unique or inidividual, that is, emotions, personality, problem solving, etc. Deuteronomy 11: 13.

Bob Barclay

#11 digitalartist

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Posted 03 March 2008 - 09:55 AM

In the creation, were man and woman created with or without age? They sinned on the very same day they were created. So did 1 day old babies sin and get thrown out of the garden? Were one day old babies able to speak?
etc...

Now since God created life already aged, why not the rest of the universe as well?

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No God did not create babies for he knew that they would have to be able to fend for themselves and babies are unable to do so. However, God did create Humans, Animals, Plants, etc... with an aging process built in. God being omniscient, would have known that since the earth has finite room, Eternal life would have become a nightmare as eventually every square inch of the earth would be populated by humans and animals all vying for a place to live. Chaos would have ensued with wholesale slaughter on both sides. Thus God added the aging process that leads to death and allows for the continuation of the species.

Yes God could have created the universe already aged. There is no question God can do anything. It is not about what God could have done but what he did do. There is no indication in the bible or other literature that God created the universe already aged.

#12 rbarclay

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Posted 03 March 2008 - 10:15 AM

This nice, but there is "one" problem with the whole idea. Does anything age in eternity? If so, how does something age but not die?

Aging only has one goal, and that goal is death of life. And decay of everything else involved.

Adam and Eve, were they created to live for ever? Or was it sin that brought death into their lives? It was sin of course. So they were created before sin which means they were created to live forever. Living forever means you live where eternity "can exist". This is why God could walk among them, and did not have to use a burning bush, or a Holy of Hollies place to meet with man. Which means that before sin this was Heaven on earth.

So being eternity, when would man age if in eternity you cannot age?

If things needed to age and die, then things would not have been created, they would have been birthed. But birthing, and the pains that go along with it, did not happen until man sinned.

Genesis 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

Don't believe that generations of heaven were made in the day the heavens were created? If the generations were of life and not time, then God's word would have said: Generations of man. Which would have pointed to time passage that included the aging and man reproducing generations. But, the Generations point only to heaven. Not to life.

And it also points directly at two things: heaven and earth. There are three heavens.

2cor 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

These heavens are:
1) The physical heaven (where we are).
2) Where Satan and the fallen angels are, which was created when the first like was separated to created darkness. Which is a spiritual heaven
3) where God is.

So one day one, the physical heaven was created and the earth was created within it.

So what happened on that same day?

Genesis 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

In the day they were created, generations were added. Why use the word generations? What is the geologic column? Is it not evidence of a passage of ages? For if the whole earth was created as one age, then generations of ages would not be needed. So different parts of the earth were aged differently. You cannot put that into a more understandable word then to use the word generations.

Generations of heaven and earth are generations of space (heaven) and matter (earth).

1) Do the things created in space have generation of time? Yes, because they are not all of the same time periods.

2) Do the things created in the earth have generations of time? Yes, the evidence is the geologic column.

Generations: are periods of time.
Geologic column shows periods of time through it's layers.
Space shows periods of time through the different ages of things within it.

So we have generations of earth. Evidence: Geologic column.
Then we have generations of heaven (space). Evidence: Things in space are of different ages.

Need more evidence? There are two phrases in God's word as a reference to which time something was done or referred to.

1) Of old.
2) Of old time.

Of old is from time eternal (before sin):
ps 93:2 Thy throne is established of old: thou art from everlasting

The term "of old" is of time eternal. Does it apply to the earth and how it was created?
ps 102:25 Of old hast thou laid the foundation Of the earth: and the heavens are the work Of thy hands.

Of old time is a referrence to actual time and age passage (after sin):
deut 19:14 Thou shalt not remove thy neighbor's landmark, which they of old time have set in thine inheritance, which thou shalt inherit in the land that the LORD thy God giveth thee to possess it.

So if you use this you can also determine some things.

Who were the Sons of God that went into the daughters of men, and where did they come from?

gen 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

The reference: of old. Shows that the Sons of God came from the eternal side of time. Which means they were angels. Now which angels could sin? The fallen ones.

If you would like to do a study on this, just do some searches on the terms: "of old" and "of old time". It makes things much clearer knowing what the phrases are referring to.

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ikester 7579

Hebrews 13: 8 tells us Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. The only time He changed in age appearance is when He became a human. So for 33 years He did show aging then after His resurrection He became unchangeable again.

As far material things appearing to age in eternity there is no clear reference mainly because it is irrelevant. In Revelations 4: 2-3 John tells us he saw throne with some one sitting on it that some one of course was God the Father. Now John did not say anything about the appearance of age of the throne He sat on because it is not important. However, I assume that in His presence everything will be eternal such as His throne. I have never pictured the Spiritual Kingdom of God as having aged appearance since in Spiritual being does not age I say this is also true spiritual objects such as God's throne.

Adam and Eve were not created with eternal bodies they were not eternal. Look at Genesis 3: 22 we see God had created the tree of life that would give them eternal life. Since they have not eaten of of this tree yet God sent them out of the garden. However, we know from Scripture they could live many centuries. There are a variety of ideas as to why they could live so long but that is only speculation.

Also your reference to Genesis 6: 4 about the Sons of God being angels is taken out context. If you go back to Genesis 4: 26 we are told that Seth and promised line of the Messiah began to call on the name of the LORD (Jehovah). This is an important reference in the fact that Jehovah is the Old Testament revealed name of Jesus. This is witnessed in Romans 10: 9-13 where Paul tells us that if you believe in your heart and confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord (Jehovah) you will be saved and he concludes this revelation with anyone who call son the name of the Lord (Jesus) will be saved. Genesis chapter 5 tells us that the population of the earth began to multiple and that not all of them called on the name of the Jehovah. So the Genesis 6: 4 reference to the Sons of God is a reference to the righteous line of Seth this is referring to the eternal life God had promised to all who believed and the daughters of men are those born, after the promised line of the Messiah, that did not call on the name of the LORD.

Genesis chapter 5 tells us where the daughters came from. Adam lived another 800 years after Seth was born and that he had sons and daughters during that time. If you look at the entire chapter everyone mentioned had sons and daughters after the Promised line of the Messiah was born. That is a lot of people being reproduced exponentially and from the Scriptures we know not all of them were calling on the name of the LORD. We can not forget that Cain's descendent's were in this picture also he left Adam and Eve and started his own population.

As far the angels s@x with the daughters of men Jesus answers this in Matthew 22: 29-30. He tells the Sadducees that no one in God's (Spiritual) Kingdom will being marrying because they will be like the angels. This is a clear reference to the fact angels do not have s@x with humans because they were not given the capability to do so. To say that the fallen angels could is a incorrect inference as to the fact that are still spirit beings. Jesus states in Luke 24: 39 that spirit beings do not have flesh and bones therefore they are not capable of having s@x. John Gill in his commentary states:

"Those "sons of God" were not angels either good or bad, as many have thought, since they are incorporeal beings, and cannot be affected with fleshly lusts, or marry and be given in marriage, or generate and be generated."

I have read several commentaries that say basically the same thing Sons of God does not refer to angels good or bad but do refer to Seth's promised line of the Messiah.

Bob Barclay

#13 ikester7579

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Posted 03 March 2008 - 10:34 AM

I did a youtube video on it, maybe this will better explain it to you:
Sons of God:


Aged earth:


Creation day one:


Creation day two:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFKJTf8HIKM

Creation day three:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9DonJOgWPg

#14 rbarclay

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Posted 03 March 2008 - 04:15 PM

I did a youtube video on it, maybe this will better explain it to you:
Sons of God:


Aged earth:


Creation day one:


Creation day two:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFKJTf8HIKM

Creation day three:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9DonJOgWPg

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ikester7579

I have seen the YouTube sites and I have heard and read of these ideas. I am neither here nor there on what the water canopy it could be a crystalline layer, water layer, vapor layer, etc. Without being there when it was created it can not be proven one way or the other. We do know it was a firmament of water as to its condition that is speculating. I am not saying that speculating is good or bad I am simply saying it can not be proven one way or the other.

In regards to appearance of age I am have not been convinced that this is the case. There is just as much evidence in radiometric dating to support the young earth belief. Here are two articles on helium that speak to that:

http://www.icr.org/article/302
http://www.icr.org/article/247

As to the light and darkness in Genesis 1: 3-5 saying that it is the light of God is what I believe is being talked about here. As far as the darkness speaking of Satan’s fall is something I do not think is being referred to here. It is not clear when Satan tempted Eve we do know Satan fell before this but when is not clear.

To the question of how long Adam and Eve were in the garden it is less than 130 years. Genesis 5: 3 tells us Seth was born to after 130 years had past; however, as to when Cain and Abel were born we do not know except that it was shortly after their exile from the garden.

Bob Barclay

#15 fallan

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Posted 12 March 2008 - 10:05 AM

Genesis 1.v 2.And the earth was without form and void and darkness was upon the face of the deep.

Now why is this mentioned in Genesis.How long was the earth in this condition before the Holy Spirit moved upon the face of the "WATERS".What exactly does this mean.Was there already water on the earth when it was without form and void

God doesnt put things in His word without some reason and I believe saying the earth was without form and void is put there for us to understand and it could be the reason why this earth is said by scientists to be 4.5billion years old.Surely a day with the Lord is like a thousand years and a thousand years is like a day. I also notice that His involvement regarding earth started on the 3rd day see Gen1v9-13.This is just a thought and I might be completely wron about this :D

#16 Fred Williams

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Posted 12 March 2008 - 10:30 AM

God doesnt put things in His word without some reason and I believe saying the earth was without form and void is put there for us to understand and it could be the reason why this earth is said by scientists to be 4.5billion years old.Surely a day with the Lord is like a thousand years and a thousand years is like a day. I also notice that His involvement regarding earth started on the 3rd day see Gen1v9-13.This is just a thought and I might be completely wron about this :D

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If God literally meant 1 year = 1000 years, did Joshua walk 6000 years around Jericho, or just 6 days? :) Why is the meaning of 'day' only questioned in Genesis 1?

Posted Image

Please see this thread and feel free to comment there if you like:

http://www.evolution...?showtopic=1006

Fred

#17 fallan

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Posted 12 March 2008 - 10:48 AM

If God literally meant 1 year = 1000 years, did Joshua walk 6000 years around Jericho, or just 6 days? :D Why is the meaning of 'day' only questioned in Genesis 1?

Posted Image

Please see this thread and feel free to comment there if you like:

http://www.evolution...?showtopic=1006

Fred

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Ok Fred Lets forget about the 1000 days I see your point :) but what about my other points earth being without form and void this was "before"the Spirit moved on the face of the waters

#18 rbarclay

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Posted 13 March 2008 - 07:08 AM

Ok Fred Lets forget about the 1000 days I see your point :D  but what about my other points earth being without form and void this was "before"the Spirit moved on the face of the waters

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Genesis 1: 1-2 are part of the thought that ends in verse 5 or in other words it is the first day of creation. God created the earth and it was in darkness and then He created light. This division of light and darkness began the first of six days of creating the world.

Bob Barclay

#19 Fred Williams

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Posted 13 March 2008 - 05:54 PM

Ok Fred Lets forget about the 1000 days I see your point :D  but what about my other points earth being without form and void this was "before"the Spirit moved on the face of the waters

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How about the following trifecta:

1) Whenever day is used with an ordinal or with evening and morning, it always refers to an ordinary day - at least everywhere else in the Bible except Genesis 1. :)

2) For those who didn’t catch it in the first chapter, God reminded us in Exodus 20:11:

Ex 20:11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

3) Jesus was a young earth Creationist.

Matt 19:4 Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning 'made them male and female ,'

Mark 10:6 But from the beginning of the creation, God 'made them male and female .'


Fred

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Posted 15 March 2008 - 05:32 AM

For those who didn’t catch it in the first chapter, God reminded us in Exodus 20:11:

Ex 20:11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.


Well.... There are grammatical and scritpural reasons to see that as beginning in Gen1:3, and that Gen1:1~2 were some unknown period of time before.

Its very easy to read them altogether, butit can also be understood as Gen1:1 is God created, and then Gen 1:2 can be translated the Earth became waste and void.

But Isaiah 45:18 says that God did not create the earth waste and void.

You can look at it either way, i.e. Isaiah 45:18 refers to an overall creation description in Gen1, or that it supports a creation, judgement, and re-creation in Gen 1.

I've setteled on the earth probably being less than 10k years old, but I would not criticize people too much for seeing it the other way, at least from a Biblical point of view.

Either way, the universe had an obvious age, my guess is tha Adam and Eve probably were created in their early 30's. Christ was the 2nd Adam and his minitisry began when he was around 30 so there could be some correlation between them. Just speculating...

Terry




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