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Psalm 22


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#1 scott

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Posted 26 August 2008 - 08:12 PM

this book of the bible stands out to me, at any point it IS a FULFILLED prophecy of the BIble. Remember Psalm is in the old testament, and this book was written hundreds of years before Jesus.

Verse 1: " My God, My God, why have You Forsaken Me?"

Verse 14: " I am poured out like water, and all My bones are out of joint: My heart is like wax it has melted within Me."

Verse 15: " My strength is dried up like a potsherd, and My tongue clings to My jaws; You have brought Me to the dust of death."

Verse 16: " For dogs surrounded Me; The congregation of the wicked has enclosed Me. They pierced My hands and My feet:"

Verse 17: " I can count all My bones. They look and stare at Me."

Verse 18: " They divide My garments among them, and for My clothing they cast lots."

This evidence can speak on its own.

#2 ikester7579

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Posted 26 August 2008 - 11:44 PM

Here is an interesting tibit. Christ shed His blood in the same order of things happening in the old testament.

1) Where was the first sin? In the "Garden" of Eden. Where did Christ shed the blood first? In a "Garden" when He prayed.

2) When was the first curse put forth? When God cursed the groun with thorns and thickets, and said that man would have to work by the sweat of his brow. Christ shed the second blood when the same type of thorns were used to make a crown of thorns, and the blood ran across His brow.

3) When was the first plague? Diring Egyptian times with Pharoah and Moses. Christ shed His blood the third time (by His stripes we are healed).

It's been a while since I posted this. So I'm doing it from memory.

#3 TempestTossed

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Posted 26 August 2008 - 11:49 PM

this book of the bible stands out to me, at any point it IS a FULFILLED prophecy of the BIble. Remember Psalm is in the old testament, and this book was written hundreds of years before Jesus.

Verse 1: " My God, My God, why have You Forsaken Me?"

Verse 14: " I am poured out like water, and all My bones are out of joint: My heart is like wax it has melted within Me."

Verse 15: " My strength is dried up like a potsherd, and My tongue clings to My jaws; You have brought Me to the dust of death."

Verse 16: " For dogs surrounded Me; The congregation of the wicked has enclosed Me. They pierced My hands and My feet:"

Verse 17: " I can count all My bones.  They look and stare at Me."

Verse 18: " They divide My garments among them, and for My clothing they cast lots."

This evidence can speak on its own.

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scott, whenever you make an argument, I know that it will not be a waste of time. You find the best evidence there is to support your position, and you put serious time and thought into it.

I think this passage is indeed very important to Christianity, because it had an influence in shaping the gospel narratives, much like Isaiah 53. I am a person who favors the critical camp. Moreover, I am someone who believes that prophecy fulfillments in general are not likely to be legit, be it Christian, Muslim, Zoroastrian, or Hindu. Prophecy fulfillments are very often presented as evidence because of their persuasive value, but I have found that there are very many ways that a prophecy fulfillment claim can go wrong, ways that people often overlook, and prophecy is perhaps the toughest way to go about proving the legitimacy of a religious doctrine to a trained skeptic.

There are several things seemingly wrong with the prophecy fulfillment claim that you presented.

Problem 1: Reinterpretation.
The first red flag is that the proposed prophecy does not seem meant to be a prophecy at all. Prophecies, if they are meant to predict the future, are in future tense. This passage is not in future tense. It is in past tense. The passage changes to future tense only after salvation is delivered from YHWH. "They will proclaim his righteousness to a people yet unborn—for he has done it."

Moreover, it is never stated specifically who the subject is in this passage. It was not, before Christianity, traditionally interpreted as a messianic prophecy. The suffering subject of the passage was interpreted as an allegory for the nation of Israel, which would explain the past tense. Israel was many times conquered and enslaved by foreign empires (according to history and myth).

Problem 2: Cherry picking. Verses 12 and 13 state: "Many bulls surround me; strong bulls of Bashan encircle me. Roaring lions tearing their prey open their mouths wide against me." So where were these bulls and lions attacking Jesus at the crucifixion? You must think they are metaphorical. But certainly you would NOT take them to be metaphorical if it was shown that there WERE literally bulls and lions present. This hurts the idea that there is a tight fit between the prophecy and the proposed fulfillment. If you claim allegory with part of the prophecy for no reason other than to fit it to the proposed fulfillment, then you render the entire prophecy ambiguous.

Problem 3: Fulfillment embellishment. This is the most serious problem. The gospels were not written by eyewitnesses. They could not have been. They were originally written in the Greek language by Greek Christian men, not literate Jews, and the earliest gospel (the gospel of Mark) is dated by historical linguists to the late 60s or early 70s, or about 40 years after the death of Jesus. This means that there was ample opportunity and motivation to embellish the story in order to persuade adherence, much like we see in the historical accounts of other religious figures. Perhaps there was an early Christian who told embarrassing truths about what happened at the death of Jesus, and perhaps his accounts were ignored and lost in favor of the accounts that make Jesus seem to fulfill perceived scriptural prophecies. The histories of all religions are histories of ideological warfare, and the surviving accounts are written by those who manage to gain the most converts and inspire the most zeal.

#4 scott

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Posted 27 August 2008 - 07:52 AM

We also need to remember, that David was the one saying this, many times in the Bible Gods calls David his son. The lions and the bulls David was speaking of was obviously metaphorical of his enemies, as many times in Psalms. I also believe that Jesus death was vice versa, metaphorical to David, even though Jesus' crucifixtion and the things that happened there i believe happened.

Evidence itself is in the eye of the beholder, mostly fossils, which in turn can bite back at an evolutionist like he never thought possible. When evolutionist speak of things such as the KT boundary, and the history of anscestors shown in layers in the rocks in the textbooks, REAL hands on evidence for both of these is lacking severely.

Just take a trip to a fossil site, and see physically which layer is the one thats supposedly 65million years old. You could say, well i believe its that old because its been tested to be that old. Well unfortunately you cannot date rocks or soil, unless its been documented for thousands of years by humans, which it has not.

Now if you think you can find a dinosaur layer, then a modern mammal layer in exact order then be my guest. None has yet to be found.

#5 Dave

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Posted 27 August 2008 - 10:16 AM

Moreover, I am someone who believes that prophecy fulfillments in general are not likely to be legit, be it Christian, Muslim, Zoroastrian, or Hindu.


Tempest, I would respectfully request that you read the "Purpose of this Forum" pinned topic. This part of the forum is considered a "safe haven" for believers to discuss their discoveries in the Bible. It is not for non-believers to pounce on the writers of the post and declare that God's word in the Bible is "not likely to be legit."

My interpretation of Fred's comments is that non-believers are welcome to participate providing they bring with them a sincere desire to understand and learn from the insights given by the writer of the post. Questions may be asked, but combative debate is not allowed.

I'm not a forum mod, so this is just my opinion. But, I found your comments offensive, and I'm hoping you'll respect the purpose of this area of the forum in both the letter and spirit of the rules.

OK?

Having said that, there were quite a few of your comments that should be addressed because of their biblical inaccuracies, misinterpretations, and being just plain wrong.

Might I suggest you narrow your comment down to one statement at a time and pose it as a sincere question in the Bible Q&A forum?

It might not surprise you to know that I take Bible prophecy very seriously and would appreciate the chance to clarify your misstatements. But, not here in this particular area of the forum.

Dave

#6 TempestTossed

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Posted 27 August 2008 - 05:18 PM

Dave, I am sorry. I kinda remember this thread being in the Miscellaneous section, and that is where I posted, and then a moderator must have moved it here. I am trying to be careful to stay within the limits.

#7 Dave

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Posted 27 August 2008 - 06:26 PM

Dave, I am sorry.  I kinda remember this thread being in the Miscellaneous section, and that is where I posted, and then a moderator must have moved it here.  I am trying to be careful to stay within the limits.

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Apology accepted. And thank you. I believe that is likely what could have happened. The OP would belong here rather than in Miscellaneous, but your response didn't. I can see how that could happen.

In any event, if you'd like to entertain a dialogue about prophecy in the Bible Q&A forum, it is a topic that interests me.

Dave

#8 TempestTossed

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Posted 27 August 2008 - 08:21 PM

Apology accepted. And thank you. I believe that is likely what could have happened. The OP would belong here rather than in Miscellaneous, but your response didn't. I can see how that could happen.

In any event, if you'd like to entertain a dialogue about prophecy in the Bible Q&A forum, it is a topic that interests me.

Dave

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Cool, I started a thread in Bible Q&A.

#9 Hawkins

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Posted 24 September 2008 - 01:06 AM

This evidence can speak on its own.

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And the Bible seems to agree with you. :)

John 19:24 (NASB)
So they said to one another, "Let us not tear it, but cast lots for it, to decide whose it shall be"; this was to fulfill the Scripture: "THEY DIVIDED MY OUTER GARMENTS AMONG THEM, AND FOR MY CLOTHING THEY CAST LOTS."




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