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Christian Music. What Do You Think?


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#21 Dave

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Posted 19 September 2008 - 07:52 AM

Scott,

The things you listed are personal, subjective things ... emotions. What I was asking for was the fruit produced in our country, our society our culture by rock music.

You mentioned quite a lot of bad fruit, all of which I agree with ... drugs, sexuality, rebelliousness, etc., but what are the good fruit of rock that are the opposites of these in our culture and society?

Dave

#22 scott

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Posted 19 September 2008 - 08:17 AM

Scott,

The things you listed are personal, subjective things ... emotions. What I was asking for was the fruit produced in our country, our society our culture by rock music.

You mentioned quite a lot of bad fruit, all of which I agree with ... drugs, sexuality, rebelliousness, etc., but what are the good fruit of rock that are the opposites of these in our culture and society?

Dave

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Rock is a form of music used with electrical instruments that only fairly recently appeared. Rock or any other form of music is an expressed emotion in and of itself. Music cannot be explained as NOT being an expression of emotion, because that is exactly what it is. Obviously the majority of emotions being expressed through the use of different lyrics and musical instruments will always have the sinning world on top.

Why? Because this is a lost world, the majority of this lost world expresses lost and out of touch feelings, which lead to all the sins you see that man has done. You could attribute many more things besides rock music the reason this country has fallen quickly in the past 50 years. When its all said and done the bad will outweigh the good in any debate of a material thing.

#23 ikester7579

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Posted 20 September 2008 - 01:44 AM

Just posting more examples for opinions. This is Crystal Lewis. My favorite singer.

[godtube]f904b679084778f1b328[/godtube]

[godtube]f727692c0f9c44ba613f[/godtube]

Crystal Lewis started out singing in her Father's church. She said that she soon got the calling to take her singing more solo and on the road. When many people started wanting cds of her songs, none of the recording studios would record her songs because she was a Christian, and a unknown. So her and her husband decided to get a loan and open their own recording studio. And was turned down by all the banks. The last bank almost signed it. So the next day they invited the bank president and loan officers to a private concert. the next day they got their loan.

Her Father first objected to the type music she would be singing to. He later approved when he saw how many were coming to Christ through the message in her singing.


[godtube]70c460b1cde910a71198[/godtube]

#24 ikester7579

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Posted 24 September 2008 - 09:02 PM

You guys can continue to debate this. I was just posting more examples to try and draw more opinions from other here at the forum.

#25 scott

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Posted 24 September 2008 - 10:34 PM

Dave,

I just want to know what evil you can attribute contemporary christian rock music to. I agree with ikester's explaination in the original post.

#26 Dave

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Posted 26 September 2008 - 09:04 AM

Dave,

I just want to know what evil you can attribute contemporary christian rock music to. I agree with ikester's explaination in the original post.

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Hello Scott,

I haven't abandoned you. Things have been really hectic around here, and time is an issue.

What I'm thinking I'd like to do is narrow down the discussion somewhat by shifting the debate from the "evils of rock music" to something more basic. If someone is an enthusiast of the rock music, or even CCM, culture and gives basically emotional or personal responses to questions about his preferences, then there really is no debating it.

So, how about if we try this?

Let's bring the debate into the realm of the church, and specifically worship. But, first, let's begin by getting on the same page with what those terms mean.

If you don't mind going first, please define from a Biblical perspective what is the church, and what is meant by worship and how God intends the church to worship.

I believe if we can come to agreement on these two issues the place of CCM in church and worship will be self-evident to anyone who has a discerning spirit. If we can't come to agreement, then that will be evidence enough that we shouldn't be debating this topic in the first place because we're just simply not talking about the same things.

Sound like a plan?

Dave

#27 scott

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Posted 27 September 2008 - 08:53 PM

Hello Scott,

I haven't abandoned you. Things have been really hectic around here, and time is an issue.

What I'm thinking I'd like to do is narrow down the discussion somewhat by shifting the debate from the "evils of rock music" to something more basic. If someone is an enthusiast of the rock music, or even CCM, culture and gives basically emotional or personal responses to questions about his preferences, then there really is no debating it.

So, how about if we try this?

Let's bring the debate into the realm of the church, and specifically worship. But, first, let's begin by getting on the same page with what those terms mean.

If you don't mind going first, please define from a Biblical perspective what is the church, and what is meant by worship and how God intends the church to worship.

I believe if we can come to agreement on these two issues the place of CCM in church and worship will be self-evident to anyone who has a discerning spirit. If we can't come to agreement, then that will be evidence enough that we shouldn't be debating this topic in the first place because we're just simply not talking about the same things.

Sound like a plan?

Dave

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Sounds like a plan,

Ok, I'll start. The church is the people who come together to learn more about Gods word and His Will. Worship can be defined by what we do, like praising God through music, and studying His Word. Worship is an overall combination of things we do in and out of Church (the building).

Now, where does CCM come to play in our worship? I believe that it is a form of worship outside the Church building, it is a form of worship used to convert people. By this I mean, a form of mission work. But, on occasian it can be used in place of our hymnals, because generally it uses the same message, guided by instruments other than a piano, or organ.

Our church, usually on Sunday nights, will have a band to come play, and have a Revival, that is we have preachers from other churches come to preach as well. But, this is only on special occasions.

But you may have a difference of opinion.

#28 Dave

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Posted 28 September 2008 - 03:59 PM

Hi Scott,

I'll tell you what I believe the Bible says about church, and we'll see if it agrees with your definition.

But first I need to backtrack a bit and state that there is a huge gulf between the biblical, apostolic church and what passes for church these days. If you read Revelation Chapters 2 and 3 very carefully, you'll find that Jesus has very little good to say about the church as it has evolved throughout history. Today's institutionalized, denominational, "seeker friendly," emergent, wordly church simply bears no resemblance to the body of believers that Jesus left behind upon his ascension 2,000 years ago.

According to the Bible, The Church is the body of believers that make up the body of Christ. Acts 2 has some verses that sum up pretty well what the first church consisted of. There are many more.

Acts 2:42- And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

Acts 2:43 - And fear (or reverential awe) came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.

Acts 2:44 - And all that believed were together, and had all things common;

Acts 2:46 - And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,

Acts 2:47 - Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.


Basically, The Church is made up of believers assembling for teaching and discipleship (Acts 2:43), fellowship with other believers (Acts 2:44 and 1Cor 6:14), breaking of bread, communion and shared meals (Acts 2:46), and praising God (worship) and praying together (Acts 2:42, 47).

All this was to be done with the body being in "one accord" (Acts 2:46).

During the apostolic era churches were basically what we would call home churches. Believers would go out into their communities, make new believers, and then -- only then -- bring them into the fellowship of the church. The church "service" was definitely not to be used to evangelize non-believers or to be conducted in a worldly, pagan way to attract non-believers off the street so they could possibly win them to Christ. Church is to disciple and edify those who were already in the body of Christ, and encourage them to go out and win new believers.

Throughout the epistles we read where those who violated God's principles regarding the church are brought under church discipline.

Also, there is nowhere in the New Testament where God says that any music, let alone pagan-style music, should be used to lure non-believers into the church.

I'm running out of time. I'll address worship next time.

Dave

#29 scott

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Posted 28 September 2008 - 09:16 PM

Hello Dave,

I totally agree, with the way you presented how the Biblical church was. There is a big difference between todays church and the church from the apostolic era.

Your right, todays mainstream (worldy churches) are a good bit liberal in the way they conduct themselves. They let anyone and everyone come into the church building, but those people who do, aren't a part of the real church, that makes up the body of Christ. In todays environment it's hard to judge who is and who isn't a part of the body of Christ, by this you know I mean saved. No one, can judge the hearts of men besides God. However, we can get a pretty clear idea of these people by the fruit they are producing.

Looking back at the apostolic era, we notice why the churches were smaller, and for good reason. Back then, Christianity wasn't very well accepted, and if you were to be found out to be one, there could be some serious consequences. Such as being beatin, imprisonment, or death. This also gives good reason for not openly playing music to attract converts.

This is why most early christianity was underground, christains made entire cities underground that could hold up to 3,000 to 50,000 people. Derinkuyu, Turkey, is a good example of this. This also brings up a good question, though off topic, as to if christianity was false, then why did they fight so hard to survive, and spread the truth.

Though praising God through psalms and music may not have been mentioned in the new testament, I am quite sure the early Christians used songs to help lighten the load of stress they were receiving from the pressures of the anti- Christ people of the day. Because I believe that music was more of a tradition back then, than it is today.

Now, today, the sound of electric gutiars , cannot be soley attributed to Satanic movements, because when this technology became available, it was available to all people, good and bad. Drums cannot be soley attributed to the Satanic movement, because drums are one of the oldest known musical instruments known to man, that have been used by the Hebrews of the old testament.

In and of itself, the guitar can be viewed as the more advanced version of the Harp. Rock music, is just a simple way of saying, those musical lyrics are accompanied by the electric guitar. Now, whether or not someone is going to use an instrument for or against God, is up to them.

I believe the confusion about rock music, stems from the majority of rock music being used for evil, such as s@x, drugs, and violence. Now, if you were listening to a rock song that was glorifying those 3 things, then I would have to seriously consider not listening to it, but if the rock song was glorifying God, then I might just have to leave that song playing.

Does anything I said go along with what you believe?

#30 Dave

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Posted 29 September 2008 - 08:14 PM

Hi Scott,

OK. Now on to worship. There might be some surprises in store for you here.

What is worship? How does God expect to be worshipped?

Again, as always, the Bible gives us the final word.

95% of the time when worship is mentioned in the Old Testament the word used is "sachah," which means to prostrate in homage to God, to bow down, to humbly beseech, to do reverence.

In the New Testament, the word most commonly used for worship is proskuneo, which means to kiss like a dog licking his master's hand, to fawn or crouch down, to prostrate oneself in homage.

Some example scriptures:

Jos 5:14 ... And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant?

Psa 95:6  O come, let us worship and bow down: let us kneel before the LORD our maker.

Mat 4:9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

1Cr 14:25  And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on [his] face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.

Rev 3:9  Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

Rev 4:10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne,...


So, you can see that worship is to be accompanied with the attitude of abject humility, subservience, reverence and awe, and in a posture expressing those characteristics. Certainly these are rare in today's church, much less in our society in general -- what with decades of "self-esteem" being taught in the government school systems.

What's interesting is the number of times that God uses worship in the Bible in conjunction with sin -- man worshipping idols, other gods, riches, power, prideful things.

Here's an example that stood out for me. God relates an event that specifically uses "all kinds of musick" to call everyone to worship a false god.

Dan 3:5 [That] at what time ye hear the sound of the cornet, flute, harp, sackbut, psaltery, dulcimer, and all kinds of musick, ye fall down and worship the golden image that Nebuchadnezzar the king hath set up:


There are two ideas we can take away from the biblical descriptions of church and worship:

1) That was then, and this is now. Things are different. We've progressed beyond that bow down, humility stuff. Nobody would come to church if we did all that biblical stuff.

2) God means what He says, says what He means, and never changes.

So, either church and worship are what God has expressed in His Word that it should be, or it is something else, a product of fallen flesh, and a worldly view.

Where exactly does CCM fit into these idesa? Number 1 or Number 2?

Dave

#31 ikester7579

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Posted 30 September 2008 - 05:58 AM

Israelite prophets were musicians. During the exodus Miriam the prophetess, taking her tambourine, led the women in song and dance, celebrating the Lord's triumph over the Egyptians (Exod. 15:20-21). Saul encountered a band of sanctuary prophets who prophesied accompanied by instruments (1 Sam. 10:5). Isaiah composed songs, including one celebrating the Lord's deliverance of those who trust in him (Isa. 26:1-6). The public regarded Ezekiel as "one who has a beautiful voice and plays well on an instrument" (33:32).

David, a musician as well as a warrior, established the place of music in the worship of the Lord. Even before the sacrifices had been moved to Jerusalem, he instructed the Levitical musicians to celebrate the ark's journey to Zion (1 Chron. 15:16-24), and appointed Asaph as chief musician in charge of continual thanksgiving and praise (1 Chron. 16:1-7). The description of this activity (1 Chron. 25:1-7) suggests that these musicians led in a spontaneous and overwhelming outpouring of worship, especially at high moments like the dedication of Solomon's temple (2 Chron 5:11-14). This may be the "new song" to which the Psalms refer (33:3, 40:3, 96:1, 144:9, 149:1). Many Psalms perhaps originated in this pre-temple Davidic worship centering around the ark of the covenant.

In the temple, music functioned as a "sacrifice of praise," an offering of song to accompany the offering of sacrifice. Under the Judean rulers, the performance of music became regulated and standardized. The titles of 55 Psalms refer to the music director, with instructions for performance on various instruments or using certain tunes. This psalmody remained a feature of Israelite and Jewish worship. After the exile, Ezra recruited more than 200 Levites for service in the sanctuary (Ezra 8:18-20). First-century Jewish sources indicate that the choir of Herod's temple consisted of at least twelve adult male singers, with no upper limit. Singers served between the ages of thirty and fifty, after a five-year training period. The sources also describe the instruments in use at that time.

After the Babylonian exile, most Jews lived in the Dispersion (areas outside of Palestine) and could not participate in temple worship. Therefore the synagogue arose for prayer and the study of the Scriptures. The Psalms continued to be sung, and other portions of the Scriptures as well as prayers were chanted according to a developing system of "modes." Such Jewish music influenced the worship of the early church.

Israelite worship music was both vocal and instrumental; the sanctuary orchestra contributed to the celebration of Israel's covenant with the Lord. Its instruments fall into the same general classes with which we are familiar — percussion, winds (pipes) and strings. Horns, trumpets, cymbals, harps and lyres were used when the ark was brought to Mount Zion, and their continued use is reflected in their mention in the Psalms. The sanctuary instruments were not solo instruments, but sounded simultaneously to call the assembly to worship (Psa. 98:6). Strings and pipes, if used, probably played the modalities (tune elements) in the psalm being sung, with perhaps distinctive patterns of ornamentation. Horns, trumpets and cymbals added to the festive joy by creating a larger sound. The selah of the Psalms may have been an instrumental interlude, or a "lifting up" of sound by both singers and instrumentalists. Tambourines, usually played by women, are mentioned in connection with dancing at Israelite festivals (Psa. 68:25), but were not used in the sanctuary where only men served as priests and musicians.

What did the music of Israel's worship sound like? While we cannot know today exactly how it sounded, recent research has confirmed the similarity between Hebraic music and ancient forms of Christian chant. Biblical music incorporated several characteristic features:

Monophony, the use of an unharmonized melodic line — although ornamentation and instrumental accompaniment could create a primitive form of harmony.
Modality refers to the use of various musical motifs within a certain scale, each with its own function.
Ornamentation, the use of enhancements suited to the skill of the performer.
Rhythm — Semitic music does not use the regular beat of modern Western music but has a more complex pattern of time structuring.
Scale — Semitic music follows a generally diatonic melody, but with some use of quarter-tone intervals as well as whole or half tones.
Improvisation, the practice of composing the music in the process of performing it using skills acquired through a long period of training.
Antiphony — In antiphonal music, groups of performers answer one another in statement and response. Examples in biblical worship may be found in the Psalms (Pss. 24, 118) and the "Holy, holy, holy" of Isaiah's seraphim (Isa. 6:3), in a vision no doubt influenced in its expression by the chanting of priestly choirs. This last feature suggests that the congregation, as well as trained musicians, may have been involved in the musical responses of the service.

Etc...

http://www.laudemont...rg/a-mawitb.htm

#32 scott

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Posted 01 October 2008 - 07:32 AM

I guess there really is nothing new under the sun. Because when the Israelites used the musical instruments to praise God, we must also remember that at that time, people used those same instruments to praise their false gods.

Just like today, musicians can use their music to serve God, or to serve the world. The majority has always been people serving the world, and the only time this will change is when Jesus comes back.

#33 Dave

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Posted 01 October 2008 - 02:08 PM

Scott and Isaac,

I hope I haven't given the impression that I am against music. We have in our family quite a few musical instruments: 3 guitars, 1 violin, 1 mandolin, 1 autoharp, 1 piano, probably a dozen and a half recorders and Irish tin whistles, 1 complete set of bagpipes, several practice chanters (for quieter bagpipe practice), 1 5-string bluegrass banjo, 1 hammered dulcimer, a couple of harmonicas, and several ocarinas. Someone in our family is playing at least one, if not several, of these instruments pretty much daily.

As you can guess, our musical tastes run mostly to folk -- American and Scottish/Irish -- plus, we play and sing quite a few hymns, and my wife is accomplished at playing classical pieces on the piano.

To state that there was a lot of music in the Old Testament is to overstate the obvious -- but it is hardly germane to the discussion. The direction I was trying to take this discussion is toward an understanding of how music can and should fit today into biblical worship during a gathering of believers at a biblically-true church. I believe God has given us a lot of direction in that regard, and believe it would be instructive for us to look at what He says about it.

That's why I don't want to get sidetracked into discussions about electric guitar vs. acoustic, for example. I believe once we agree on what a true Godly church is (or is supposed to be) and what true Godly worship is we'll be able to discern what is the style of music that pleases God's ears, shows honor and glory to Him, and bestows grace on us for worshipping Him according to His desires, not our own fleshly preferences.

Part three in my discussion will center on "unity," God's desire for believers to be in one accord.

Dave

#34 ikester7579

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Posted 01 October 2008 - 10:24 PM

Dave,

I notice you use the phrases: true Godly church, biblically-true church.

If a church adheres to true biblical principles. But does not do what you think they should do as far as music is concerned. Have they fallen from grace? And is every one that is saved only saved through the excitement of the music in the church?

Christ made it very clear in scripture that those who come to know Christ are drawn to Christ through God the Father "only". It is never said any where in scripture that there is any other power that can draw someone to Christ. So to say or imply that the excitement of music can draw a person forward to accept Christ is like also claiming there is another way to Heaven. And to also imply that the ones who come forward in places where the music you disapprove is being played are not saved. Is to also imply that you have God knowledge and are implying judgement as such. Neither of these claims can be supported biblically.

I hope I haven't given the impression that I am against music. We have in our family quite a few musical instruments: 3 guitars, 1 violin, 1 mandolin, 1 autoharp, 1 piano, probably a dozen and a half recorders and Irish tin whistles, 1 complete set of bagpipes, several practice chanters (for quieter bagpipe practice), 1 5-string bluegrass banjo, 1 hammered dulcimer, a couple of harmonicas, and several ocarinas. Someone in our family is playing at least one, if not several, of these instruments pretty much daily.


With all due respect, what I see here is a person who has become "bias" of certain instruments and music that these instruments can produce. Banjos can be played to promote sin, Or to praise God.

Example: The woman singer I listed above (Crystal Lewis) is part of my testimony of how I was drawn back to God when I had strayed so far away. Now because you have implied here that the excitement of music can produce the same draw as the calling for salvation. Would that also mean that my coming back was false? And on the other end of this issue, what if I thought that this music was not right because I was taught such things by me religion? And because of that I was never drawn back? Would not that teaching just denied me of salvation?

You cannot claim that music you disapprove of does certain things, then recant it for certain conditions (just in case you say you see nothing wrong with Crystal's music). What is evil will always be evil, and cannot draw anyone to Christ period.

So me listening to her music and song, and being drawn back to Christ. What would you say was the drawing power here?

#35 Dave

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Posted 02 October 2008 - 07:37 AM

Dave,

I notice you use the phrases: true Godly church, biblically-true church.


Just using God's descriptions from His own words.

If a church adheres to true biblical principles. But does not do what you think they should do as far as music is concerned. Have they fallen from grace?


Can a church follow some of God's principles, and not others remain in God's graces very long? A little leaven corrupts the whole lump. In Jesus' own words (Rev. 2-3) there are many churches that have already fallen far from his grace.

And is every one that is saved only saved through the excitement of the music in the church?


I'm sorry, I cannot parse your question enough to answer that. Can you rephrase it?

So to say or imply that the excitement of music can draw a person forward to accept Christ is like also claiming there is another way to Heaven. And to also imply that the ones who come forward in places where the music you disapprove is being played are not saved. Is to also imply that you have God knowledge and are implying judgement as such. Neither of these claims can be supported biblically.


Again, I can't parse your non-sequitor question into any fashion that I can answer . Can you rephrase it.

With all due respect, what I see here is a person who has become "bias" of certain instruments and music that these instruments can produce. Banjos can be played to promote sin, Or to praise God.


No offense, but that's a "Duh" kind of thing. Of course I am biased in my choice of instruments and music. Who isn't? The question before us is if our choices and biases please or displease the Lord.

Now because you have implied here that the excitement of music can produce the same draw as the calling for salvation. Would that also mean that my coming back was false?


Again, I have no idea what you are talking about that I "have implied here that the excitement of music can produce the same draw as the calling for salvation."

You cannot claim that music you disapprove of does certain things, then recant it for certain conditions (just in case you say you see nothing wrong with Crystal's music). What is evil will always be evil, and cannot draw anyone to Christ period.


What I was attempting to do in this discussion is get away from personal, preferencial experience and show how believers following God's principles from the Bible will choose a musical worship style that pleases the Lord. It's got nothing to do with what I approve or disapprove of.

So me listening to her music and song, and being drawn back to Christ. What would you say was the drawing power here?

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I'd suggest your answer can be found in a thorough, honest, sincere examination of yourself meditating verse by verse through the book of 1John.

Dave

#36 ikester7579

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Posted 02 October 2008 - 07:47 PM

No offense, but that's a "Duh" kind of thing. Of course I am biased in my choice of instruments and music. Who isn't? The question before us is if our choices and biases please or displease the Lord.


Then here you just relayed that your opinion is in this debate as well. I tried to get you to show me where people can be drawn forward to Christ because of music and not God. And I have yet to see anything to confirm this. There is only one way to heaven, right? So to say there is also another drawing power through music, that does not include God, is claiming another way to Heaven.

Example: The only way to heaven is to accept Christ right? But then Christ said that the only drawing power to Him was by the Father God. So one controls the salvation, while the other controls who gets drawn to get salvation. And I can supply scripture to support both. But you imply that there is another drawing power not of God that is only because of music. I have yet to see any scripture to support this yet.

In fact, how does God show His approval in a ministry?

And how does God show His disapproval in a ministry?

Or is it determined by the individual who decides to judge such things?

You will never guess that I was once against this type of music being in ministry. But once I realized what the sign of God's approval was, I then also realized that it was not up to me to make such a judgement. If I did not understand why certain ministries were getting approval with things I did not approve of. Then there is something wrong with my thinking and not God's.

Which can relay to several things:
No Pastor, minister, etc... is perfect. God works on these people even while they are in ministry. So while they run there ministry, is God supposed to condemn it why they make mistakes? Because if God requires perfection from his shepherds, as you seem to imply. Then every ministry upon this earth would be out of His will.

Name a perfect ministry, and I'll sell you ocean front property in Arizona.

So if God tolerates imperfect ministries. To what point is the imperfection tolerated? And what variables does God use to determine this? I don't know and neither do you. So how do we determine what is being approved of? I determine it by God's drawing power to His Son in a ministry. I have yet to see you refute this by using any scripture, only opinion.

What I was attempting to do in this discussion is get away from personal, preferencial experience and show how believers following God's principles from the Bible will choose a musical worship style that pleases the Lord. It's got nothing to do with what I approve or disapprove of.


Can evil draw a person to the Son of God? Yes or no? If you say yes, then support it with scripture.



Okay, to get to the core base of this. I can conclude that you do not approve of Third Days music. So when people get saved and come to know the Lord because of this music ministry. What was the drawing power that led them to Christ?

1) Was it God? Which can be supported by scripture.
2) Or Was it music only? Which is not supported by scripture as an alternative drawing force.

jn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Now can you take this verse and truly imply that there is another drawing power to Christ other than Father God?

And where did I get the idea that you implied another drawing force?

For example, we would probably disagree on the actuality of the "drawing power to Christ" that comes from the emotions elicited by a particular CCM event.


And then you more or less imply that any testimonial written by anyone who would even be associated with CCM is lying.

A written testimony is easy to write up. However, the actual testimony of CCM rock stars' lives almost invariably exhibits a different kind of fruit. That's to say nothing about the downright Satanic origins of rock music and the founders of that musical genre.


If people are getting saved, what other kind of fruit are they producing?

Now I do know that some bands are a total bad representation of our Lord. But what you are doing here is stereotyping everyone that is associated in a certain group. If God did this, no one on this earth would be going to Heaven. This is because we can all be stereotype as sinners.

#37 ikester7579

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Posted 02 October 2008 - 08:33 PM

Here is some more music by the Isaac's:

[godtube]a15e7dbe2c7ad5874b7e[/godtube]

[godtube]2b9060f6f6f4d57aa637[/godtube]

So what determines music as evil? What words it is sung to, or how it's played? And where would this be supported in scripture?

#38 Dave

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Posted 03 October 2008 - 09:56 AM

Isaac,

You seem obsessed about going down this particular rabbit trail, even though it has nothing to do with the biblical appropriateness of rock music in the Lord's church. So, I'll answer it, hoping we can move on.

If I really work hard at trying to parse your obfuscation of this issue, I come up with this paraphrase to get to the nut of what you are saying:

You are saying that rock music can't be evil because people come to the Lord after listening to it.

Then you taunt me to prove from scripture either that evil can be used to lead people to the Lord (you're hoping, of course, that I can't do that) or to fail to find the scripture, which proves your case that rock music isn't evil because it brings people to the Lord.

Correct me if I'm wrong so far.

To answer your question: Yes, God has used evil people, bad circumstances, and tragedies to draw people to Him. There are so many examples throughout the Bible and historically, I don't know where to begin.

Noteably, Exodus 9:16 is a very good example -- "And in very deed for this [cause] have I raised thee up, for to shew [in] thee my power; and that my name may be declared throughout all the earth."

God is talking about using Pharoah's stiff-necked, unrepentent, murderous character to insure that the Israelites would follow Moses out of Egypt and into the promised land. Please note that God not only allowed the evil Pharaoh to perform that role, but He raised him up for that purpose!

Would you suggest that because God used an evil person like Pharaoh to bring people to where He wanted them Pharaoh would be an OK person to be worship leader at your church?

WWII is full of so many stories illustrating how God used evil circumstances to bring people to Him. The big picture is how Hitler's persecution of the Jews is actually responsible for beginning their return to the Holy Land that was needed to progress to these end times. God used Hitler to draw His people back to where he wanted them to be so they could eventually recognize Him as Lord and Savior.

In fact, historically, the greatest church growth comes during times of the worst persecution of the saints.

Would you suggest that Hitler would be a great pastor for your church? Or that you should employ assassins to come in and shoot up your church once in awhile?

A specific event during WWII was Corrie TenBoom's experience. She relates how lice were so bad in the concentration camp it was driving everybody crazy. She, however, prayed to thank God for the lice. When asked by the other inmates how she could do that she explained that the lice is what was keeping the German jailers away from their building, thus sparing the women from "visits" from the men. Her faith and testimony about that incident has won many, many souls.

Would you suggest that it would be a good thing to sprinkle a bucket of lice around the next time your church gets together for a potluck?

I think the biggest, most poignant example is from the Lord Jesus Himself. "Isa 53:10 -- Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him;" speaking of Christ's time on the cross.

Surely, no man has ever suffered like Christ did, both physically and emotionally, having come from being God, the son of God, spotless, beautiful, righteous, to being nailed to a tree like so much meat, taking on the sins of the world. Yet, God said it pleased Him to do that!

A watcher during that time would be excused for thinking there was a major tragedy going on. However, God had a purpose for putting his son through that.

Would you suggest that there should be a ritual cross nailing by some volunteer during your average church service? Of course not.

There are many, many examples from the Bible, both Old and New Testament where God used evil people and tragic circumstances to bring people closer to Him. However, nobody, especially God, suggests that those things should be used on a continuous basis by fleshly man in a church service to draw people to Him.

I hope this settles that particular issue for you Isaac.

So, that brings us back to the issue of whether someone can be saved by rock music, and if that justifies its use during a meeting of the Body of Christ.

Statistically and historically, it is shown that only a very small minority of rock music "converts" are truly saved if given the 1John test of assurance of salvation. You have to realize that someone has to make up the group who Jesus talks about that He "never knew." So, you have to admit that it happens.

What is tragic about the multitudes who profess faith as believers at a rock concert because of the emotional appeal but who aren't truly saved is that they might never really take the steps to truly accept Jesus Christ as savior, receive the Holy Spirit, and be saved. There are probably untold millions out there who have been lead to their everlasting doom at rock concerts simply because they have believed a lie and think they already have the truth.

I've already taken up more time than I have available in following your rabbit trail. Next time, I'll return to my exposition of whether or not rock music is appropriate for church worship.

Dave

#39 ikester7579

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Posted 04 October 2008 - 12:45 AM

Isaac,

You seem obsessed about going down this particular rabbit trail, even though it has nothing to do with the biblical appropriateness of rock music in the Lord's church. So, I'll answer it, hoping we can move on.

If I really work hard at trying to parse your obfuscation of this issue, I come up with this paraphrase to get to the nut of what you are saying:

You are saying that rock music can't be evil because people come to the Lord after listening to it.

Then you taunt me to prove from scripture either that evil can be used to lead people to the Lord (you're hoping, of course, that I can't do that) or to fail to find the scripture, which proves your case that rock music isn't evil because it brings people to the Lord.

Correct me if I'm wrong so far.


Taunt you? You require of me what cannot be produced by you.

To answer your question: Yes, God has used evil people, bad circumstances, and tragedies to draw people to Him. There are so many examples throughout the Bible and historically, I don't know where to begin.

Noteably, Exodus 9:16 is a very good example -- "And in very deed for this [cause] have I raised thee up, for to shew [in] thee my power; and that my name may be declared throughout all the earth."

God is talking about using Pharoah's stiff-necked, unrepentent, murderous character to insure that the Israelites would follow Moses out of Egypt and into the promised land. Please note that God not only allowed the evil Pharaoh to perform that role, but He raised him up for that purpose!

Would you suggest that because God used an evil person like Pharaoh to bring people to where He wanted them Pharaoh would be an OK person to be worship leader at your church?


Pharoah had already been condemned because of what he was born into. Moses was not condemned because his parents were not the same as Pharoah.

Also sin is what brings the rest that comes upon us. And if we need to be tested like Job, then that also brings these things. But this is through God lifting His hand of protection from us. It is not a direct action of God. Unless it is God's rath for sin. And that is always pointed out in scripture.

WWII is full of so many stories illustrating how God used evil circumstances to bring people to Him. The big picture is how Hitler's persecution of the Jews is actually responsible for beginning their return to the Holy Land that was needed to progress to these end times. God used Hitler to draw His people back to where he wanted them to be so they could eventually recognize Him as Lord and Savior.


Would it have been better to use a Christian to do that? Hitler choose his path. God used that path to get the job done. Now some might make the claim that Hitler was Christian. Hitler gave that up. But he used religion to make people that were gulible think he was on their side. Through that mistake on their part for trusting Hitler, many found out that he was a pathalogical liar. He even went as far as to have the crosses removed from Nazi soldiers graves in favor of pagan symbols.

Attached File  Hitler_cross_replacment.jpg   118.91KB   17 downloads

In fact, historically, the greatest church growth comes during times of the worst persecution of the saints.


Yes because some people have to fall into a deep hole before they will look up.

Would you suggest that Hitler would be a great pastor for your church? Or that you should employ assassins to come in and shoot up your church once in awhile?


And for what reason would you say that? This debate is not a one up game. And you just proved to me that this is more of a personal opinion by that comment.

A specific event during WWII was Corrie TenBoom's experience. She relates how lice were so bad in the concentration camp it was driving everybody crazy. She, however, prayed to thank God for the lice. When asked by the other inmates how she could do that she explained that the lice is what was keeping the German jailers away from their building, thus sparing the women from "visits" from the men. Her faith and testimony about that incident has won many, many souls.


This was to show that good can be found in anything, if you look hard enough.

Would you suggest that it would be a good thing to sprinkle a bucket of lice around the next time your church gets together for a potluck?


Here again you are making uncalled for comments.

I think the biggest, most poignant example is from the Lord Jesus Himself. "Isa 53:10 -- Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him;" speaking of Christ's time on the cross.

Surely, no man has ever suffered like Christ did, both physically and emotionally, having come from being God, the son of God, spotless, beautiful, righteous, to being nailed to a tree like so much meat, taking on the sins of the world. Yet, God said it pleased Him to do that!


It pleased Him because God knew how many souls would be saved from hell. If you could take a beating for a loved one, so that they did not have to suffer, would you? If a person who held you and a family member hostage, gave you the choice of your whole family being beaten. Or just you. What would you choose? We are called sons and daughters of God for a reason. We are part of that family. Christ had the choice, He made the choice of the cross. And it pleased God because he would only have to punish one for sins committed and not millions. Which would you choose? And which would please you? One to punish, or millions?

A watcher during that time would be excused for thinking there was a major tragedy going on. However, God had a purpose for putting his son through that.

Would you suggest that there should be a ritual cross nailing by some volunteer during your average church service? Of course not.

There are many, many examples from the Bible, both Old and New Testament where God used evil people and tragic circumstances to bring people closer to Him. However, nobody, especially God, suggests that those things should be used on a continuous basis by fleshly man in a church service to draw people to Him.

And what you imply is that false churches can bring people to Christ as well as real ones. So if I use that logic, it really does not matter what church I go to, right?

I hope this settles that particular issue for you Isaac.

I don't see what you see. And I don't believe that God would ever draw anyone to His son through a deceptive ministry.

So, that brings us back to the issue of whether someone can be saved by rock music, and if that justifies its use during a meeting of the Body of Christ.

Statistically and historically, it is shown that only a very small minority of rock music "converts" are truly saved if given the 1John test of assurance of salvation. You have to realize that someone has to make up the group who Jesus talks about that He "never knew." So, you have to admit that it happens.

And could you claim that every person that walks forward in your church is saved? You are claiming knowledge that is impossible to have. Salvation is an individual choice. And people can change their minds.

What is tragic about the multitudes who profess faith as believers at a rock concert because of the emotional appeal but who aren't truly saved is that they might never really take the steps to truly accept Jesus Christ as savior, receive the Holy Spirit, and be saved. There are probably untold millions out there who have been lead to their everlasting doom at rock concerts simply because they have believed a lie and think they already have the truth.

What is the requirement for salvation?

rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Faith and belief save you. A tool of evil or deception cannot draw a person to a rightous God. There is a difference between what is purely evil, and what can be made evil.

Example: The word of God can be made to use as an excuse to do evil. Does that make it evil? The word is a tool, just like music is a tool. It's how you use the tool that makes it evil or good.

I've already taken up more time than I have available in following your rabbit trail. Next time, I'll return to my exposition of whether or not rock music is appropriate for church worship.

Dave

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You call my subject a rabbit trail because you cannot address it directly. And you prefer to use a book instead of the Bible to prove what you believe. One person's experience does not determine everyone else's. Just because one person could not deal with the temptations of rock music does not mean another person cannot. We all have our weaknesses, the book you refer to maybe someone who writes about his weakness, and then stereotypes it to a whole category of music because he refuses to see that it applies to him, and not everyone else.

To sell a book you have to convince everyone that you are right. I don't see where that book can make that case using the Bible. This is why his book is more based on personal experiences and opinions than Biblical support. One verse I use to gauge things by that never fails me is:

2tim 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

What is the power denied?

jn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The verse is as clear about this as one can be (no man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him). The book you refer to denies this. I cannot be a part of this. The word instructs me to turn away.

1) You imply, using that book, that evil can save people. And that God would use this to do so.
2) You imply, using that book, that dececption can save people. And that God can use this to do so.
3) You imply, using that book, that there is more than one drawing power to Christ. And that denies what is written clearly on this subject.
4) You imply, using that book, that God will use what ever means available to save someone whether it be good or evil. And evil person is controlled by Satan. God hardened the heart of Pharoah, He did not put the words into Pharoah's mouth. What was in his heart came out.

If God can do all of these things, then how can He look into an unsaved sinners eyes, and with full holliness and rightousness, condemn them to hell when He looks no better?

Basically, the book implies that God can use sin for salvation. I don't believe that. There is no exempt status in Heaven for sin. Why do you think Lucifer was cast out?

#40 Dave

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Posted 04 October 2008 - 07:19 AM

Isaac,

You asked me for examples of how evil people, evil practices, or evil circumstances had been used by God to bring people closer to Him. I gave the examples. If you don't like my examples, I'm sorry.

I refuse to continue to waste time chasing down this rabbit trail of one's personal preference for different styles of music. What one chooses to listen to, or worship, is strictly between him and God. It is not a salvation issue, and not germane to my main reason for being in this discussion -- the appropriateness of a music style for worship in a body of believers practicing in a Godly church the way God would have it.

Isaac, let me ask you the same question I asked Scott, only reworded slightly. Can you show me the fruit, from scripture, of the introduction of rock music into the assembly of the body of Christ?

I don't care what people listen to on their iPods while walking down the street, or in the privacy of their own homes. I want to talk about rock music in church, and whether it pleases, or displeased God.

OK?

Dave




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