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Biological Theory: Postmodern Evolution?


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#41 jason78

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Posted 16 November 2008 - 02:10 PM

The old homology argument, that´s all evolutionists have.

I´ve already said that : "Common Design"

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So if it just looks like the chromosomes were fused, what's the difference?

#42 jason777

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Posted 16 November 2008 - 03:51 PM

How do you explain the apparent similarity then?

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Nobody has to explain their apparent similarity,since they are testably and completely different.Fusing chimp chromosomes together has never produced human chromosomes.

#43 NowhereMan

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Posted 17 November 2008 - 11:30 AM

You are really laughable. You answered the probability argument using a Sidestepping fallacy about flagellum, when you are inquired about flagellum you say you want to stay on topic.

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Not at all. I suggested continuing the topic on relevant threads as a response to Jason's comment that we were off topic. My answer about the flagellum was because one of your links was a probability argument about the its evolution. You brought it up. It is impossible to make a probability argument about the evolution of a complex feature without knowing whether or not the component parts of that feature could have been selected for in the ancestors of the organism concerned.

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Posted 17 November 2008 - 11:38 AM

Nobody has to explain their apparent similarity,since they are testably and completely different.Fusing chimp chromosomes together has never produced human chromosomes.

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Yup, completely different. Oh wait, they're not completely different. Oops.

(Still waiting for someone to explain the telomere pattern located near the centomere of human chromosome 2 if not from a fusion event.)

#45 jason777

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Posted 17 November 2008 - 02:19 PM

Quote;Yup, completely different. Oh wait, they're not completely different. Oops.

As usual,your source did'nt give any numbers so were supposed to beleive The chromosomes must be the result of evolution.

The last time i checked,chimps and humans have at least 2.8 million genetic differences.I'm sure it's way more than that now.

#46 jason777

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Posted 17 November 2008 - 02:42 PM

Quote;(Still waiting for someone to explain the telomere pattern located near the centomere of human chromosome 2 if not from a fusion event.)

I dont know anyone who says these chromosomes arent fused.We know why they are fused,and it isnt because of common acestory.

Humans normally have 46 chromosomes. However, sometimes two chromosomes will fuse together to form one big chromosome. Centric fusions are where two acrocentric chromosomes (chromosomes with the centromere very close to one end) fuse to make a large metacentric chromosome (one with the centromere near the middle). It is estimated that around 1/1000 people carry this type of chromosomal rearrangement. While they are sometimes associated with problems such as infertility or serious chromosomal aberrations in the offspring, often they are asymptomatic.2 This is because all of the necessary information is there in the proper amount; it is just packaged differently.

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Posted 17 November 2008 - 04:13 PM

I dont know anyone who says these chromosomes arent fused.We know why they are fused,and it isnt because of common acestory.


What is it from then? Magic?

Even if you believe humans were specicially created, they still would have undergone a fusion event. So it is common ancestry.

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Posted 17 November 2008 - 04:22 PM

As usual,your source did'nt give any numbers so were supposed to beleive The chromosomes must be the result of evolution.


Check the banding patterns. Notice anything? (Hint: They are not "completely different".)

The last time i checked,chimps and humans have at least 2.8 million genetic differences.I'm sure it's way more than that now.


Er, that's the average diversity between people. The chimp-human diversity has always been higher than that.

#49 scott

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Posted 17 November 2008 - 04:59 PM

What is it from then?  Magic?

Even if you believe humans were specicially created, they still would have undergone a fusion event.  So it is common ancestry.

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No, it would not be common ancestry because they would have been created fused.

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Posted 17 November 2008 - 05:02 PM

No, it would not be common ancestry because they would have been created fused.

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So you are claiming they weren't fused, they were created that way.

Why the telomere patterns near the centromere then?

#51 scott

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Posted 17 November 2008 - 09:29 PM

So you are claiming they weren't fused, they were created that way.

Why the telomere patterns near the centromere then?

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What would prevent them from being created fused?

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Posted 17 November 2008 - 09:44 PM

What would prevent them from being created fused?


If they were created that way, why the telomeres near the centromere? I mean, other than if they were created to make it look like an ancestral fusion took place.

#53 jason777

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Posted 17 November 2008 - 10:29 PM

Quote;If they were created that way, why the telomeres near the centromere? I mean, other than if they were created to make it look like an ancestral fusion took place.

While they are sometimes associated with problems such as infertility or serious chromosomal aberrations in the offspring, often they are asymptomatic.

If you think that makes it look like common ancestry then theres nothing i can do to help you.

Heres a paper on cattle chromosome fusions,without macro evolution occuring.

www.answersingenesis.org/articles/arj/v1/n1/karyotype-variability-cattle - 87k

Enjoy.

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Posted 17 November 2008 - 10:41 PM

While they are sometimes associated with problems such as infertility or serious chromosomal aberrations in the offspring, often they are asymptomatic.

If you think that makes it look like common ancestry then theres nothing i can do to help you.


Do you even know what telomeres are?

For reference: http://www.pubmedcen...cgi?artid=52649

#55 jason777

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Posted 18 November 2008 - 12:14 AM

Quote;Do you even know what telomeres are?

No.But i did stay at a holiday inn express last night....just kidding.

I understand your position.You thnk it's evidence of evolution because of the location that it has occured.I'm trying to tell you that we have observed chromosome fusion in cattle and it was not the result of genetic mutation.

If chromosome fusion was the result of common ancestory from chimps then everyone would have chromosome 2 fusion.Only 1/1000 people have that fusion event.

How does chromosome 2 fusion increase genetic information,in this imaginary scenario of yours,that has'nt occured in cattle?No imperical evidence is'nt evidence of anything.

Thanks.

#56 deadlock

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Posted 18 November 2008 - 03:37 AM

One thing I've never understood is what the "common design" argument actually means.  And if similarities imply the same designer, does this mean differences imply different designers?


Your assertion is no sense.Do you think two different cars have the same engineer for the similarities and different engineers for the differences?

At any rate, when it comes to the chromosome 2 argument, it's obvious they were fused since the telomere sequences clustered near the centomere are a dead giveaway.


There´s no problem if they got fused.The problem is to use it as argument for common ancestor with chimps.Although it´s difficult to explain how such event which decreases the fertility in 50% passed through natural selection filter.

#57 deadlock

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Posted 18 November 2008 - 03:41 AM

So if it just looks like the chromosomes were fused, what's the difference?

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The fusion event is not your argument.As I said the fusion event is exclusive to humankind.Your argument is homology, you think because they have similarities with chimps chromosomes, man and chimps should have evolved from a common ancestor.But homology can be explained by common design too, so it´s not argument at all for any side.

#58 deadlock

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Posted 18 November 2008 - 03:43 AM

Not at all. I suggested continuing the topic on relevant threads as a response to Jason's comment that we were off topic. My answer about the flagellum was because one of your links was a probability argument about the its evolution. You brought it up. It is impossible to make a probability argument about the evolution of a complex feature without knowing whether or not the component parts of that feature could have been selected for in the ancestors of the organism concerned.

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But my only argument at this time is probability, and it does not depend on irreducible complexity.

#59 deadlock

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Posted 18 November 2008 - 03:45 AM

What is it from then?  Magic?

Even if you believe humans were specicially created, they still would have undergone a fusion event.  So it is common ancestry.

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of course not.The fusion event is exclusive to humankind.So, it is a common ancestry if you are considering that ancestor as being human.

#60 NowhereMan

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Posted 18 November 2008 - 05:50 AM

If chromosome fusion was the result of common ancestory from chimps then everyone would have chromosome 2 fusion.Only 1/1000 people have that fusion event.

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The chromosome 2 fusion is fixed across the human population, Jason, and the two chromosomes that make it up are unmistakeably 2 of the ape chromosomes.

Your 1/1000 people statistic is the proportion of the population who have new chromosome fusions. :)




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