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Retrograde And Direct Motion


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#1 Adam Nagy

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Posted 05 December 2008 - 09:26 AM

When assuming a totally natural result following the supernatural (but unintelligently caused) Big Bang, how do Evolutionists attempt to white wash the evidence of angular momentum violated by some planets spinning in the wrong direction and entire galaxies spinning in the wrong direction?:

http://en.wikipedia....d_direct_motion

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#2 jason78

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Posted 05 December 2008 - 11:21 AM

When a thin hydrogen gas cloud collapses under its own gravity, which way will it start spinning?

#3 Adam Nagy

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Posted 05 December 2008 - 12:13 PM

When a thin hydrogen gas cloud collapses under its own gravity, which way will it start spinning?

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Can you demonstrate how gas clouds collapse under their own weight, first? If you say; Well, if it hadn't collapsed we wouldn't have stars." Then my baloney detector will go off.

Take a closer look at that Galaxy, too. From the article, it's supposed to spin clock-wise. How does that work?

#4 jason777

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Posted 05 December 2008 - 01:34 PM

Bohles gas law is 60 times more powerful than gravity.Thats why see gas and dust clouds in the universe instead of tightly compacted gas and dust balls.

Thanks.

#5 Adam Nagy

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Posted 05 December 2008 - 01:47 PM

Bohles gas law is 60 times more powerful than gravity.Thats why see gas and dust clouds in the universe instead of tightly compacted gas and dust balls.

Thanks.

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Oh, it makes sense now, thanks, Jason. I wasn't going to post Boyle's Gas Law because I wasn't sure if I could argue it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boyle's_law

What you just said made a light switch go on. Gravity is a weak force which means the idea of gravity overcoming Boyle's Gas Laws is the kind of stuff fairytales are made of...

I get it now, thanks!

That makes the little animation on Wikipedia all the more vital.

Wait hold on a second. I just want to cover all my bases. Is hydrogen known to exist in a liquid state in the vacuum of space? I want to give Big Bangers the benefit of the doubt.

That doesn't really matter though does it? As soon as there's enough pressure to generate any heat poof! Back to gas, huh?

It sounds to me like you need something a little more stable, like say an Iron Core, before things start "lumping" together. I think we have another chicken and egg problem on our hands. ;)

I love it when thoughts fall together. It's painful since us Christians hate learning ;) but that was awesome!

#6 A.Sphere

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Posted 05 December 2008 - 01:54 PM

When assuming a totally natural result following the supernatural (but unintelligently caused) Big Bang, how do Evolutionists attempt to white wash the evidence of angular momentum violated by some planets spinning in the wrong direction


Our solar system was a messy place during the early days. In fact we have strong evidence for collisions on the planetary scale. A large collision could change the spin of a planet.

and entire galaxies spinning in the wrong direction?:

Not sure what you mean by a galaxy spinning the wrong way - there is no right way for a galaxy to spin. Cosmology tells us that our universe is isotropic. This means that we should find that half of the galaxies in our universe spin in one direction and the other half in a different direction. Statistical analysis shows this to be true.

http://arxiv.org/abs/0803.3247

#7 Adam Nagy

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Posted 05 December 2008 - 02:07 PM

Not sure what you mean by a galaxy spinning the wrong way - there is no right way for a galaxy to spin.


Read that article that I linked and think about what its saying. The observations from Hubble have astronomers concluding that the arms are backwards for the direction that they perceive that the galaxy is rotating. I’m assuming this is determined by the red shift difference from the side that’s closer to us.

I think I'm reading it correctly. ;) According to the article, when you look at the picture it's spinning clock-wise.

#8 A.Sphere

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Posted 05 December 2008 - 02:12 PM

Oh, it makes sense now, thanks, Jason. I wasn't going to post Boyle's Gas Law because I wasn't sure if I could argue it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boyle's_law

What you just said made a light switch go on. Gravity is a weak force which means the idea of gravity overcoming Boyle's Gas Laws is the kind of stuff fairytales are made of...

I get it now, thanks!

That makes the little animation on Wikipedia all the more vital.

Wait hold on a second. I just want to cover all my bases. Is hydrogen known to exist in a liquid state in the vacuum of space? I want to give Big Bangers the benefit of the doubt.

That doesn't really matter though does it? As soon as there's enough pressure to generate any heat poof! Back to gas, huh?

It sounds to me like you need something a little more stable, like say an Iron Core, before things start "lumping" together. I think we have another chicken and egg problem on our hands.  ;)

I love it when thoughts fall together. It's painful since us Christians hate learning  ;)  but that was awesome!

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No no no no. Gravity is weak but when you have tons of matter the sum of gravitational forces are strong. Look at the sun - gravitational collapse holds out against nuclear pressure from the strong nuclear force (the strongest force). You can't really apply and ideal gas law to a gas cloud - for one it is not ideal. However you probably can apply something similar that has the overall relationship of P=k/V with some correction terms. However, gravitational collapse from large amounts of matter would exceed ideal gas pressures many times over.

We are not using a single mass in analysis but a cumultive mass. For those of you who know a little calculus this means

M=integral_0^r (4pi s^2)rho(s)ds

This cumulative mass makes the gravitational force cumultive as well. If you want the details see:

http://www.sjsu.edu/...ravcollapse.htm

Do a google scholar search "gravitational collapse of gas cloud" and you will get tons of info.

#9 Adam Nagy

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Posted 05 December 2008 - 02:15 PM

This means that we should find that half of the galaxies in our universe spin in one direction and the other half in a different direction.  Statistical analysis shows this to be true.


Would you say the Law of angular momentum did not get "invented" until after your hot spinning ball of nothing exploded?

#10 A.Sphere

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Posted 05 December 2008 - 02:15 PM

Read that article that I linked and think about what its saying. The observations from Hubble have astronomers concluding that the arms are backwards for the direction that they perceive that the galaxy is rotating. I’m assuming this is determined by the red shift difference from the side that’s closer to us.

I think I'm reading it correctly.  ;) According to the article, when you look at the picture it's spinning clock-wise.

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They kind of answer what they suspect in the article though. Galactic collisions happen all of the time and if one of the participate galaxies was small it would be absorbed. This could account for the oddities present in NGC 4622.

#11 jason777

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Posted 05 December 2008 - 02:20 PM

I love it when thoughts fall together. It's painful since us Christians hate learning  but that was awesome!


I'm much less educated than most people on this forum,but it does take the ideas of many people combined to figure out a lot of things.

Just look at the first atomic bomb,it took 100 of the best phyisists' in the world working night and day for years to figure out how to make that thing work.

Being phyisists' they knew more than most that the project would be bound by the laws of physics which can't be violated except by a miracle.

thanks.

#12 Adam Nagy

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Posted 05 December 2008 - 02:22 PM

Look at the sun - gravitational collapse holds out against nuclear pressure from the strong nuclear force (the strongest force).


Yeah, I see the sun. What does that prove? Can you demonstrate gas clumping? It seems to me that you have no way to show how this works. If the entire universe was filled with hydrogen gas and some helium, what would spark a gravitational center? Actually a bunch of gravitational centers? Sounds like fairytale stuff... ;)

#13 Adam Nagy

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Posted 05 December 2008 - 02:28 PM

They kind of answer what they suspect in the article though.  Galactic collisions happen all of the time and if one of the participate galaxies was small it would be absorbed.  This could account for the oddities present in NGC 4622.

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So you have things flying in all different directions after things came spewing out in a direction away from a central location that was hot and spinning in one direction, the size of the dot on the end of my question mark?

#14 jason78

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Posted 05 December 2008 - 02:30 PM

Yeah, I see the sun. What does that prove? Can you demonstrate gas clumping? It seems to me that you have no way to show how this works. If the entire universe was filled with hydrogen gas and some helium, what would spark a gravitational center? Actually a bunch of gravitational centers? Sounds like fairytale stuff... ;)

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Watching gas clouds collapse to become stars is an area of on going research in astronomy, NGC 7538

#15 Adam Nagy

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Posted 05 December 2008 - 02:36 PM

Watching gas clouds collapse to become stars is an area of on going research in astronomy, NGC 7538

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So we're holding our breath to see a star form while other one's are blowing up all the time. It seems the birth to death ratio doesn't add up. ;)

I still haven't got an answer on the angular momentum question.

#16 jason78

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Posted 05 December 2008 - 02:36 PM

So you have things flying in all different directions after things came spewing out in a direction away from a central location that was hot and spinning in one direction, the size of the dot on the end of my question mark?

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Galaxies are much bigger than question marks. They are huge. Really huge, like thousands of light years across. They do collide, and we have the pictures.

Picture of a galaxy colliding with another galaxy.

#17 jason78

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Posted 05 December 2008 - 02:38 PM

So we're holding our breath to see a star form while other one's are blowing up all the time. It seems the birth to death ratio doesn't add up.  ;)

I still haven't got an answer on the angular momentum question.

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I don't understand the question, where can you show the conservation of angular momentum not being conserved?

#18 Adam Nagy

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Posted 05 December 2008 - 02:38 PM

...physics which can't be violated except by a miracle.

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You better talk to David Hume before you let something like that slip out of your mouth again. ;)

#19 Adam Nagy

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Posted 05 December 2008 - 02:46 PM

Galaxies are much bigger than question marks.  They are huge.  Really huge, like thousands of light years across.  They do collide, and we have the pictures.

Picture of a galaxy colliding with another galaxy.

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Posted Image

Man! that is a really cool picture. Those crashing galaxies make the Big Bang theory look really dumb.

What do you suppose promoted a change in direction from the movement everything had, away from everything else, when it fell off of the hot little spinning ball of nothing in the beginning?

Since everything is moving away, presumably because of the Big Bang, who was behind the wheel of one of those galaxies to turn it towards a collisions course with another one?

#20 Adam Nagy

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Posted 05 December 2008 - 02:49 PM

Posted Image

This backwards galaxy looks a little to uniform to have gone through a collision with another galaxy. If you had to guess how would the impact have gone to make this thing so neat?




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