Jump to content


Photo

Is Randomness Not Part Of Evolution?


  • Please log in to reply
274 replies to this topic

#21 jason777

jason777

    Moderator

  • Moderator Team
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 2,670 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:Machining, Engine Building, Geology, Paleontology, Fishing
  • Age: 40
  • Christian
  • Young Earth Creationist
  • Springdale,AR.

Posted 21 December 2008 - 07:33 PM

...... Oh YEC's, they still exist well I am off of this board now.


That has got to be the funniest thing I've ever seen on this forum.It must have really freaked him out because he left.

#22 Adam Nagy

Adam Nagy

    Honorable Member

  • Veteran Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,053 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Age: 37
  • Christian
  • Young Earth Creationist
  • Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania

Posted 21 December 2008 - 07:48 PM

That has got to be the funniest thing I've ever seen on this forum.It must have really freaked him out because he left.

View Post


You know Jason, at some point there really is nothing to talk about when people want to play word games.

Hazard was a young guy, maybe I was to hard on him, but I hope he looks a little closer at his own arguments before he convinces himself that he left here with a victory. :blink:

#23 scott

scott

    Veteran Member

  • Veteran Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,749 posts
  • Age: 21
  • Christian
  • Young Earth Creationist
  • mississippi

Posted 21 December 2008 - 07:54 PM

You know Jason, at some point there really is nothing to talk about when people want to play word games.

Hazard was a young guy maybe I was to hard on him but I hope he looks a little closer at his own arguments before he convinces himself that he left here with a victory. :blink:

View Post


I make one comment about evolution being random, and come back another day and a whole thread has been made on the subject. Yes, I missed it all, but I think it's funny.

#24 JudyV

JudyV

    Member

  • Veteran Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 362 posts
  • Age: 50
  • no affiliation
  • Atheist
  • Augusta, ME

Posted 21 December 2008 - 07:59 PM

Oh fabulous job, gentlemen, *applause, applause*! I know I'm certainly impressed by the Christian love you've all shown towards this young teenager. I'm sure he's ready to convert to Christianity now.

Really, bravo to all of you, especially you, Bro'!

#25 scott

scott

    Veteran Member

  • Veteran Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,749 posts
  • Age: 21
  • Christian
  • Young Earth Creationist
  • mississippi

Posted 21 December 2008 - 08:09 PM

Oh fabulous job, gentlemen, *applause, applause*!  I know I'm certainly impressed by the Christian love you've all shown towards this young teenager.  I'm sure he's ready to convert to Christianity now.

Really, bravo to all of you, especially you, Bro'!

View Post


What else can you do, when the truth is presented you can't just keep putting candy coated toppings on it, because you loose the original taste... the truth.

Remember, no one was born with a label on them saying their feelings would not get hurt ever. If someone is offended by the truth, then it is them who is in the wrong, not the truth that is the wrong, because the truth is all there really is.

#26 Adam Nagy

Adam Nagy

    Honorable Member

  • Veteran Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,053 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Age: 37
  • Christian
  • Young Earth Creationist
  • Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania

Posted 21 December 2008 - 10:06 PM

What else can you do, when the truth is presented you can't just keep putting candy coated toppings on it, because you loose the original taste... the truth.

Remember, no one was born with a label on them saying their feelings would not get hurt ever.  If someone is offended by the truth, then it is them who is in the wrong, not the truth that is the wrong, because the truth is all there really is.

View Post


Thank you, Scott.

I sincerely hope that Hazard, if he did get his feelings hurt, thinks about what he has bought into.

This life isn't about self-esteem, it's about finding the truth and holding on to it. Self-esteem can be deadly if it's wrapped up in lies.

#27 jason777

jason777

    Moderator

  • Moderator Team
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 2,670 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:Machining, Engine Building, Geology, Paleontology, Fishing
  • Age: 40
  • Christian
  • Young Earth Creationist
  • Springdale,AR.

Posted 21 December 2008 - 10:07 PM

Oh fabulous job, gentlemen, *applause, applause*! I know I'm certainly impressed by the Christian love you've all shown towards this young teenager. I'm sure he's ready to convert to Christianity now.


Hi Judy,

I'm sure your just kidding around,but the greatest act of love a person can give another person is the truth.If that truth exposes the darkness in our hearts or minds the bible prophisied that they would rather curse God to his face than repent and be saved.

Why does it have to be a failure at conversion rather than a failure of acceptance?



Thanks.

#28 Adam Nagy

Adam Nagy

    Honorable Member

  • Veteran Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,053 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Age: 37
  • Christian
  • Young Earth Creationist
  • Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania

Posted 21 December 2008 - 10:08 PM

Oh fabulous job, gentlemen, *applause, applause*!  I know I'm certainly impressed by the Christian love you've all shown towards this young teenager.  I'm sure he's ready to convert to Christianity now.

Really, bravo to all of you, especially you, Bro'!

View Post


So if evolution has produced Christianity what would you say your roll is in fighting a normal by-product of natural selection?

Sis, if you want to stay with this thread, maybe you can pick up where Hazard left off.

What's more important to you the truth or someone's self-esteem?

#29 CTD

CTD

    Banned

  • Banned
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 2,059 posts
  • Age: 44
  • Christian
  • Young Earth Creationist
  • Missouri

Posted 22 December 2008 - 02:55 AM

Am I allowed to hand this out or are only moderators allowed to do it?

I'm really tempted to give this to you, Hazard, but I could wait a little bit longer:

Posted Image

View Post

I don't know that it is what we typically think of as evobabble. The problem is that the conclusion is in direct opposition to the argument(s) he presents - a kind of debate suicide, for lack of a better term.

It demonstrates devotion. I didn't see much beyond that. It's somewhat convenient to deal with such arguments, because it saves you the trouble of formulating your own. The problem and frustration comes from trying to convince the devoted to open their eyes and employ sound reasoning. But there's not much danger of such methods contaminating by-passers, at least.

#30 CTD

CTD

    Banned

  • Banned
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 2,059 posts
  • Age: 44
  • Christian
  • Young Earth Creationist
  • Missouri

Posted 22 December 2008 - 03:03 AM

CTD, this actually a great point that cuts to the heart of the matter. Random chance is a non-force it actually has no power. Randomness is something we use to describe events that are too complex to track.

I can see the temptation to declare that evolution is not random chance but this begs the question; well, what did it then? The evolutionist will pull out natural selection, but this is just to white wash what an undirected and un-caused universe boils down to.

I offered this personal and analytic explanation on a hostile Forum to the same question:

http://www.freeratio...678#post5443678

View Post

Haven't followed the link yet, but I have a hunch your opposition holds a double standard. Check the old threads for discussions on quantum mechanics & there's a good chance you'll find them subscribing to dogmatic randomness.

#31 Adam Nagy

Adam Nagy

    Honorable Member

  • Veteran Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,053 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Age: 37
  • Christian
  • Young Earth Creationist
  • Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania

Posted 22 December 2008 - 04:17 AM

I don't know that it is what we typically think of as evobabble. The problem is that the conclusion is in direct opposition to the argument(s) he presents - a kind of debate suicide, for lack of a better term.

View Post


I may have jumped the gun. Hazard was definitely playing word games and he was also reasoning in a circle. Well, I hope he looks back across this thread to see what we're talking about.

I really don't know how Richard Dawkins gets away with convincing so many people with his philosophy. Is he really that clever? I've never read any of his books but I seek out his debates and speeches and I find him less then compelling.

Anyway, Hazard, if you're reading this, I didn't mean to hurt your feelings. I just hope you consider what happened here.

#32 falcone

falcone

    Member

  • Banned
  • PipPipPip
  • 497 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Age: 36
  • no affiliation
  • Agnostic
  • Scotland

Posted 22 December 2008 - 04:33 AM

I've been following along and have to confess that I can't see the point of this thread other than to be argumentative.

In answer to the question, yes, randomness is part of evolution. Organisms undergo random mutations.

Non-randomness is also part of evolution. Natural selection ensures survival of organisims who's random mutations best adapt them to their environment.

That's it, there's two things going on. Random mutations and non-random filtering by the environment. As I understand it, that's the basics of the theory. Whether or not you dispute the validity of the theory is irrelevant.

The point of arguing that evolution is non-random is to refute 'tornado in the junkyard' type arguments. The end result is not an organism that has been randomly been thrown together.

I've always liked this video. It nicely shows how random mutations produce a non-random end product when there are selection filters. It's only 10 mins long and you don't need to focus too much on the first minute or so, it's old ground. Once again though, whether or not you think this is what happens to life on this planet doesn't matter.

#33 deadlock

deadlock

    Veteran Member

  • Veteran Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,196 posts
  • Age: 43
  • Christian
  • Creationist
  • Rio de Janeiro

Posted 22 December 2008 - 04:44 AM

I've been following along and have to confess that I can't see the point of this thread other than to be argumentative.

In answer to the question, yes, randomness is part of evolution. Organisms undergo random mutations.

Non-randomness is also part of evolution. Natural selection ensures survival of  organisims who's random mutations best adapt them to their environment.

That's it, there's two things going on. Random mutations and non-random filtering by the environment. As I understand it, that's the basics of the theory. Whether or not you dispute the validity of the theory is irrelevant.

The point of arguing that evolution is non-random is to refute 'tornado in the junkyard' type arguments. The end result is not an organism that has been randomly been thrown together.

I've always liked this video. It nicely shows how random mutations produce a non-random end product when there are selection filters. It's only 10 mins long and you don't need to focus too much on the first minute or so, it's old ground. Once again though, whether or not you think this is what happens to life on this planet doesn't matter.

View Post


The problem with natural selection is that it´s not a 100% selection filter.So, if it´s not 100% then it´s random.

#34 falcone

falcone

    Member

  • Banned
  • PipPipPip
  • 497 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Age: 36
  • no affiliation
  • Agnostic
  • Scotland

Posted 22 December 2008 - 04:55 AM

The problem with natural selection is that it´s not a 100% selection filter.So, if it´s not 100% then it´s random.

View Post

What do you mean?

#35 deadlock

deadlock

    Veteran Member

  • Veteran Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,196 posts
  • Age: 43
  • Christian
  • Creationist
  • Rio de Janeiro

Posted 22 December 2008 - 05:08 AM

What do you mean?

View Post


I mean that if you flip a coin you have 50% chance of tail or head, but each flip is random you don´t know what will be the result.

If you have an specie with 50% of surviving rate and it appears a mutant with 51% of surviving rate, the mutant does not take the surviving for granted.He cannot survive only 51%, or he survives or he doesnt.So, it´s only a matter of chance.

#36 JudyV

JudyV

    Member

  • Veteran Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 362 posts
  • Age: 50
  • no affiliation
  • Atheist
  • Augusta, ME

Posted 22 December 2008 - 05:46 AM

Hi Judy,

I'm sure your just kidding around,but the greatest act of love a person can give another person is the truth.If that truth exposes the darkness in our hearts or minds the bible prophisied that they would rather curse God to his face than repent and be saved.

Why does it have to be a failure at conversion rather than a failure of acceptance?
Thanks.

View Post



Sorry. My mistake. I was under the impression that you were polite people trying to convince others of the rightness of your beliefs. When you grownups gleefully ganged up on a young man and then shook hands and congratulated each other on how soundly you trounced him, and had a good chuckle about it, I was a little taken aback, that's all.

#37 Adam Nagy

Adam Nagy

    Honorable Member

  • Veteran Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,053 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Age: 37
  • Christian
  • Young Earth Creationist
  • Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania

Posted 22 December 2008 - 05:49 AM

Sorry.  My mistake.  I was under the impression that you were polite people trying to convince others of the rightness of your beliefs.  When you grownups gleefully ganged up on a young man and then shook hands and congratulated each other on how soundly you trounced him, and had a good chuckle about it, I was a little taken aback, that's all.

View Post


What did we say wrong and why was it wrong? How come atheists ganging up on Christians is a-okay but now you feel that we deserve a scolding? very consistent. Sometimes the truth hurts.

#38 Adam Nagy

Adam Nagy

    Honorable Member

  • Veteran Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,053 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Age: 37
  • Christian
  • Young Earth Creationist
  • Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania

Posted 22 December 2008 - 05:52 AM

In answer to the question, yes, randomness is part of evolution. Organisms undergo random mutations.

View Post

Hi falcone,

Then maybe you can help people, maybe even help Richard Dawkins, when he says things like; “Evolution is the exact opposite of random chance”. He’s convincing people this is reasonable when it’s bad reasoning on so many levels.

Non-randomness is also part of evolution. Natural selection ensures survival of  organisims who's random mutations best adapt them to their environment.

View Post

We should really be clear on what randomness is. Randomness doesn’t come and go based on observation. Let me expound on that. The randomness of genetic mutations is no more or less random then which zebra gets ambushed at the watering hole by the crocodile because randomness is an explanation for complex actions that have probability factors. Random chance is not a force. It has no power. It is a concept of complexity and probability. This needs to be grasped.

That's it, there's two things going on. Random mutations and non-random filtering by the environment. As I understand it, that's the basics of the theory. Whether or not you dispute the validity of the theory is irrelevant.

View Post

This is more word games. Disputing the validity of the theory is the heart of the issue, falcone. Why would you say it is irrelevant?

The point of arguing that evolution is non-random is to refute 'tornado in the junkyard' type arguments. The end result is not an organism that has been randomly been thrown together.

View Post

We know this. This is why the argument of non-randomness must be understood and soundly refuted. When you look at life and the order of this universe the tornado in a junkyard making a 747 is a viable description of what evolutionists have swallowed when they try to protect their precious mindlessly directed/undirected processes.

I've always liked this video. It nicely shows how random mutations produce a non-random end product when there are selection filters. It's only 10 mins long and you don't need to focus too much on the first minute or so, it's old ground. Once again though, whether or not you think this is what happens to life on this planet doesn't matter.

View Post

So now we have pretend animations of mating clocks :blink: trying to shore up this theory that’s on life support and based on bad philosophy? This video is such a good example of the lengths people go to, not to have their wonderful fairytale of evolution scrutinized.

Comparing a non-replicating clock to even the simplest replicating bacteria and declaring victory because one has the ability to self-duplicate and the former does not, is such bad logic. This is equivocating and it puts evolution blinders on the recipient. All we have to do is look at the simplest representative organism, a bacterium, and see that we aren’t talking about a 747 in a junkyard, we’re talking about the space station times a 1000 in a junkyard and one special added feature that the current space station doesn’t have; the ability to self-duplicate.

Trying to separate abiogenesis from evolution is, I must say, a smart maneuver on the part of evolution theorists because just how the big bang of the universe is fundamentally ignored to protect naturalism the big bang of life is also ignored to protect naturalism.

If Darwin just hadn’t called it “Origin of species” and if High-school students today in your local science classroom weren’t getting taught from big bang to goo to zoo to you in a seamless fashion maybe this issue wouldn’t keep coming up. Even with that said, if you successfully convince someone to ignore abiogenesis the theory of evolution is still a fairytale.

#39 Adam Nagy

Adam Nagy

    Honorable Member

  • Veteran Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,053 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Age: 37
  • Christian
  • Young Earth Creationist
  • Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania

Posted 22 December 2008 - 05:54 AM

Sorry.  My mistake.

View Post


Can you admit another mistake because you once bought the; "evolution is the exact opposite of random chance" mantra. What do you say?

#40 JudyV

JudyV

    Member

  • Veteran Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 362 posts
  • Age: 50
  • no affiliation
  • Atheist
  • Augusta, ME

Posted 22 December 2008 - 06:04 AM

So if evolution has produced Christianity what would you say your roll is in fighting a normal by-product of natural selection?

Sis, if you want to stay with this thread, maybe you can pick up where Hazard left off.

What's more important to you the truth or someone's self-esteem?

View Post



I don't see my role as fighting anything. I'm not an atheist warrior, out to convert the entire world to atheism. I haven't declared a jihad on all belief in gods. I do find it interesting what lengths believers will go to, in order to bolster their beliefs and make themselves believe in things that have no evidence to back them up.

As far as whether evolution is random, I also find it interesting that you guys have a difficult time seeing that it has both random and non-random components working together. Maybe it's got something to do with how you see the world as black/white, good/evil, in other words, through a filter of absolutes, no gray areas allowed.

The word "random" means something to you. The way I understand Creationist dogma, random means "a whole bunch of atoms just got caught up in a storm and randomly assembled themselves into a human being." That's ridiculous, of course. That's the "747 in a junkyard" way of looking at your caricature of evolutionary theory.

The random portion of evolution is mutations. The non-random portion is natural selection.

It's like a Creationist looking at a river flowing through a riverbed, and only seeing the water, which naturally would disperse unless bounded by the river's banks, and saying, "It's a miracle! The water is flowing in an orderly fashion, along a seemingly undirected route!"

The water is like mutations. The riverbanks are like natural selection. Two things working together to achieve seemingly miraculous order.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users