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If There Was Not A World Wide Flood, Explain This...


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#21 ikester7579

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Posted 19 January 2009 - 05:17 AM

Also, the Bible says that the rain and water from underground continued for 40 days and nights. Now imagine sediments continually being added to the water for 40 days and nights.

1) You have the sediments continually making layers for this time period.
2) And you have hydrologic sorting of the animals when they died.

In case you are not sure what hydrologic sorting is. Ponder this question. If you drop a mouse and a elephant in the ocean, which would reach the bottom first? You would normally think the elephant would because of it's weight, right? But there are several factors that determine the out come.

1) Weight.
2) Bouncy.
3) Size. More water has to move around a big animal, which would slow up the process of getting to the bottom.
4) If said animal floats, how long until it starts to sink after death?

The other factor to hydrolic sorting, and how the sediments worked for the flood. Is that bottom dwellers would end up covered first along with any life that happened to be down there when this happened. And because they would not have been dead yet. A lot of the fossil record would have shown this.

Attached File  fish_fossil.jpg   108.68KB   55 downloads

http://blogs.answers...ictures/6j1.jpg



etc...

Now if the fossil record worked the same for all life. Then life above the bottom dwellers would have been caught in life actuvities as well. But because the upper layers were not laid until several days latter, the animals there were dead (not burried alive). So we don't get one life feasting upon another, or one life giving birth and being covered up. What we have in the upper layers are already dead animals being buried, and the fossil record supports this.

Edited by ikester7579, 23 January 2009 - 03:10 AM.


#22 jason777

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Posted 18 February 2009 - 02:13 PM

Hi ikester,I thought I would add some geolocic correlations i've been working on and thought I would share what i've found.


We would first expect sorting according to ecolological niches towards the bottom.Then we would expect organisms from hundreds or thousads of miles away to be transported and sorted on top of those layers in random patterns depending on flow veloscity,desinty,and distance from the location (Thats why patterns of ecology shoud appear first).If this was the case then it would invalidate index fossils because these organisms lived at the same time.

The question is,how could such a model be tested.

The answer is,through geologic correlations instead of starting with the assumption that fossils date the layers.

We would first need to find a global layer (the great unconformity which can be found anywhere on the planet)this massive global erosion event is best explained by a global flood.

Then we would need to find sedimentary layers that have no local origin,but must have been transported from many hundreds or thousands of miles away.


The Grand Staircase


Posted Image
..............................Deep Sea............. Shallow Sea............ Coastal Plains


We can not correlate the lower paleozoic into the next level and we can not correlate the lower mesozoic into the next.Each level of the Grand Staircase rest on the Great Unconformity.

Here we have made a prediction of what the first and upper layers would look like
and we have confirmed it through geologic correlation (connecting one geologic layer to another) similar to tree ring chronolgy.

We can also confirm transportation over long distances in the upper layers.The closest origin of the Coconino Sandstone is the Appalachian Mountains,which is well over 1,000 miles to the east,but looking at the sediment flow direction in the Coconino,it flows from north to south.That makes Canada the closest origin (even further away).





Enjoy.

#23 jason78

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Posted 18 February 2009 - 03:36 PM

If the world wide flood/hydrolic sorting theory is correct, why are trilobites (ocean creatures) not alive today?

#24 jason777

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Posted 18 February 2009 - 03:45 PM

If the world wide flood/hydrolic sorting theory is correct, why are trilobites (ocean creatures) not alive today?

View Post


How do you know thier not?


We know less about our deep oceans than we know about the surface of the moon.Besides,graptolites were considered one of the most important paleozoic index fossil and they have been found still living in the deep ocean.



Graptolites, Sue Rigby, British Geol. Survey, "All paleontologist dream of finding a 'living fossil.' Noel Dilly, it seems has done so... As graptolites are arguably the most important zone fossils of the Lower Palaeozoic (570-360 MYBP), this is far from an esoteric issue." Nature, Vol.363, p.209, 3/18/'93.



Thanks.

#25 CTD

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Posted 18 February 2009 - 05:34 PM

How do you know thier not?
We know less about our deep oceans than we know about the surface of the moon.Besides,graptolites were considered one of the most important paleozoic index fossil and they have been found still living in the deep ocean.

View Post

The extinction of the trilobite isn't undisputed.

http://www.geocities...rbbug2doc2.html

http://www.trilobite...loimposters.htm

The search provided some other interesting information, too.

http://www.abc.net.a...ce&topic=latest

http://planetearth.n...ory.aspx?id=212

http://www.nwcreatio...silsliving.html

http://www.proctormu.../Trilobites.htm

#26 jason777

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Posted 18 February 2009 - 11:40 PM

Planation surfaces

How can evolutionists explain global planation surfaces that can be found on every continent?



[godtube]33a3cf9feba584bcc646[/godtube]

#27 jason777

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Posted 19 February 2009 - 03:16 PM

The Navajo Sandstone in the Grand Staircase

Evolutionists have for a long time argued against the global flood with the existance of deserts between flood layers.The question is,are these deserts or sandy flood deposits?I like to use the Grand Staircase as an example because I can correlate one geologic layer into the next without assuming stratagraphic position based on the fossils it contains.




An Unlikely Giant in Capitol Reef National Park

The discovery of giant stromatolite fossils in the Navajo Sandstone is part of a growing body of research challenging some long-held assumptions about the Paleo-environment of the Navajo erg.

The Navajo Sandstone, a prominent and well-exposed rock unit in the Colorado Plateau, was once an enormous, arid sea of blowing sands (called an erg) often compared to the present Sahara Desert. This early Jurassic dune field covered close to half a million square kilometers and reached a thickness in excess of 700 meters making it one of the largest dune fields in the history of Earth.

Although the Navajo erg is generally thought to have been an expansive and lonely desert, new fossils found in Capitol Reef National Park suggest otherwise. During an extended backpacking trip, the senior author stumbled across what he described looked “almost like a giant haystack” or “a giant limestone onion slowly being peeled.” This turned out to be the serendipitous discovery of the first known stromatolite in the Navajo Sandstone and possibly the first stromatolite within an erg setting. Eisenberg, an independent geology consultant, spent the next several years researching the occurrence and the discovery was reported in the February, 2003 issue of Geology.


http://www.nps.gov/c...tromatolite.htm


Now we have to ask,if these are not flood deposits then how do you explain stromatilites growing in a barren desert?And how is it that my model predicted the Navajo Sandstone should be a coastal plain and we find the type of fossil that confirms the predicton?

Here are living stromatilites at Shark Bay in Austrailia.
Posted Image




Enjoy.

#28 Adam Nagy

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Posted 19 February 2009 - 07:58 PM

Jason777,

Can you lay this out in plain language what it all means?

#29 jason777

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Posted 19 February 2009 - 09:20 PM

Jason777,

Can you lay this out in plain language what it all means?

View Post


Hi Adam,

As a Creationists I accept that the precambrian granites are creation rocks and the very little amounts of precambrian sedimentary rocks are pre-flood rocks.Using that as a starting point I believe the sedimentary rocks above the precambrian are flood rocks and the fossils buried at the bottom layers should be deposited close to where they lived and the layers above would be carried there from long distances away.

The lowest layer in the Grand Canyon contains trilobites and other deep ocean organisms.If we move to the next level and bottom layer in the Grand Staircase (the kaibab limestone) then we should expect to find shallow ocean organisms.Then moving on to the next level of the Grand Staircase we should expect the bottom layer (the navajo sandstone) to have fossils that live in coastal plains.

So somewhere in the Navajo Sandstone we should find a transition from shallow seas to coastal plains and stromatilites confirm that transition.So here we not only have a fossil that cast doubt on the evolutionists interpretation of the Navajo Sandstone,but actualy confirms what Creationists predicted to find.

Note that we are looking for ecological niches from the bottom up because the upper layers were transported from long distances away.






Thanks.

#30 jamesf

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Posted 20 February 2009 - 10:29 AM

The Navajo Sandstone in the Grand Staircase

Evolutionists have for a long time argued against the global flood with the existance of deserts between flood layers.The question is,are these deserts or sandy flood deposits?I like to use the Grand Staircase as an example because I can correlate one geologic layer into the next without assuming stratagraphic position based on the fossils it contains.
An Unlikely Giant in Capitol Reef National Park
http://www.nps.gov/c...tromatolite.htm
Now we have to ask,if these are not flood deposits then how do you explain stromatilites growing in a barren desert?And how is it that my model predicted the Navajo Sandstone should be a coastal plain and we find the type of fossil that confirms the predicton?

Here are living stromatilites at Shark Bay in Austrailia.
Posted Image
Enjoy.

View Post


A few points to note.

1. This collection of giant stromatolites is in the middle of the 10000 feet of geological layers with thousands of feet of sedimentary layers below and many hundreds of feet in the cliffs above.

2. These giant stromatolites took approximately 7500 years to grow this big based on growth rates of current stromatolites. Some of these are over 5 meters tall and way many tons. They appear upright and appear to have grown there. The existence of these stromatolites demonstrate that for some period of at least a few thousand years, there existed a region with calm shallow seas here.

3. The surrounding area appears to show a very arid area (much like the area near the Australia stromatolites). The surrounding sand dunes of the Navajo formation show many signs that they were not marine. Surrounding area show "in situ" tree stumps. That is they are upright with root structures. The area also includes a number of dinosaur trackways and terrestrial fossils.

4. It appears that the Navajo formation was around long enough for animals to make footprints, and giant stromatolites to grow.

5. Other deeper layers in this area of Utah show other kinds of stable environments. Some of the salt layers in the area are hundreds and sometimes thousands of feet thick (e.g., the Paradox formation). These show the same classic forms of evaporite basins shown in modern evaporite basins.
http://en.wikipedia....i/Paradox_Basin

6. These large salt layers are found at a number of different levels around the world, and they serve as the main source of salt in the United States. I have one 2000 feet below me that is underneath much of New York, Ohio and Michigan.

#31 jason777

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Posted 20 February 2009 - 01:11 PM

Hi James,

1. This collection of giant stromatolites is in the middle of the 10000 feet of geological layers with thousands of feet of sedimentary layers below and many hundreds of feet in the cliffs above.


The Navajo Sandstone can be traced directly to the Great Unconformity.Thats why I predicted to find that kind of fossil in that layer.The pre-flood surface was above the great unconformity not the layers the flood deposited.The stromatilte fossils at Capital Reef were likely deposited from a short distace away where the Navajo Sandstone rest on the precambrian.They are hard to find,but living colonies grow side by side and over time will grow into one another.



2. These giant stromatolites took approximately 7500 years to grow this big based on growth rates of current stromatolites. Some of these are over 5 meters tall and way many tons. They appear upright and appear to have grown there. The existence of these stromatolites demonstrate that for some period of at least a few thousand years, there existed a region with calm shallow seas here.


Uniformitairianism again?When God created Adam how old was he?When God created trees how old were they?

3. The surrounding area appears to show a very arid area (much like the area near the Australia stromatolites). The surrounding sand dunes of the Navajo formation show many signs that they were not marine. Surrounding area show "in situ" tree stumps. That is they are upright with root structures. The area also includes a number of dinosaur trackways and terrestrial fossils.


When the flood waters poured off of the continents it carved out the Grand Staircase.Then plants and animals began to recolonize leaving footprints in the still soft sediments.These tracks and trees are always found at or near the surface,but never between the layers.

Dinosaur tracks found at the surface of the Navajo Sandstone.
Posted Image

Petrefied trees also found at the surface of the Navajo Sandstone.
Posted Image

http://www.lakepowel.../navajowet.html

You also only find animal tracks at the surface of layers in the Grand Canyon,but never between the layers.

Posted Image

The surface must have been still soft and unsolidified when these tracks were made,indicating post-flood recolonization.With 4,300 years of flash floods,mudslides,and erosion we would expect some of them to be covered up,but they will always be found on or near the surface.

The same is true for lava flows.We can find lava flows below the Grand Canyon and flowing over the top,but you can never find them between the flood layers.

Posted Image

5. Other deeper layers in this area of Utah show other kinds of stable environments. Some of the salt layers in the area are hundreds and sometimes thousands of feet thick (e.g., the Paradox formation). These show the same classic forms of evaporite basins shown in modern evaporite basins.
http://en.wikipedia....i/Paradox_Basin

6. These large salt layers are found at a number of different levels around the world, and they serve as the main source of salt in the United States. I have one 2000 feet below me that is underneath much of New York, Ohio and Michigan.


Creationists predict to find salt basins between layers because we believe these layers were formed during a global flood.



Thanks.

#32 jamesf

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Posted 20 February 2009 - 10:05 PM

Hi James,
The Navajo Sandstone can be traced directly to the Great Unconformity.Thats why I predicted to find that kind of fossil in that layer.The pre-flood surface was above the great unconformity not the layers the flood deposited.The stromatilte fossils at Capital Reef were likely deposited from a short distace away where the Navajo Sandstone rest on the precambrian.

View Post

You do realize that there are some 10,000 feet of sedimentary layers between the Cambrian layers and the Navajo sandstone. Thousands of drill samples have been made in the area by oil companies, coal companies and gas companies. Here is a basic picture of the underlying strata. No where does the Navajo sandstone rest on the pre-cambrian or come near the "great unconformity".

Posted Image

Here is a larger version, that you can zoom.
http://creationwiki....d_Staircase.jpg


Here are some comments by the oil geologists including a cross section.
http://www.nevtahoil...h-tar-sands.htm

They are hard to find,but living colonies grow side by side and over time will grow into one another.
Uniformitairianism again?When God created Adam how old was he?When God created trees how old were they?

View Post


Do you know what a stromatolite is? Only the top layers are alive. A 15 foot thick stromatolite is almost entirely dead material with a layer of single cell algae on top.

So you are saying that after God laid down 10,000 feet of sediment in the flood, he decided to create a collection of 15 foot thick stromatolites which just looked 7500 years old? And this was done so that it would look really old? That is like saying that God created fossil bones during creation to "give the appearance" of age.

You also only find animal tracks at the surface of layers in the Grand Canyon,but never between the layers.

View Post


I love your predictions, but they are really quite wrong. You really want to claim that the best footprints are found only in exposed layers when animals were hopping down the sides of the Grand Canyon? The best footprints are found when layers of rock are removed and the fresh foot prints are found. The exposed footprints will become weathered with a few thousand years of exposure (depending on the rock). In the Grand Canyon, footprints are not found on the top but within the rocks on the cliff faces corresponding to the time that those layers were dry, or at least quite shallow. The top layers are once again marine layers with marine animals.

The same is true for lava flows.We can find lava flows below the Grand Canyon and flowing over the top,but you can never find them between the flood layers.

View Post


That is true for the Grand Canyon, but not true for many other canyons. Multiple volcanic layers are found in Dinosaur National Monument just north. In fact, many of the best preserved fossils around the world are found buried in ash (it keeps out the oxygen and helps preserve them). Here is a good link. There are many like this.
http://ashfall.unl.edu/

Creationists predict to find salt basins between layers because we believe these layers were formed during a global flood.
Thanks.

View Post


That sounds fun. Please show me the research on that. Some of these salt layers are exposed and still accumulating salt (Bonneville salt flats, Minchin flats etc) with billions of tons of accumulated salt. Salt is what happens when you take the water out of salt water. So show me how a flood creates all these salt layers under Kansas, Utah, New York, Michigan, etc.

Posted Imagehttp://wikitravel.org/upload/en/thumb/3/3c/Shadow_on_salar_de_uyuni.jpg/300px-Shadow_on_salar_de_uyuni.jpg

#33 jason777

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Posted 20 February 2009 - 10:55 PM

Thanks James,

You do realize that there are some 10,000 feet of sedimentary layers between the Cambrian layers and the Navajo sandstone. Thousands of drill samples have been made in the area by oil companies, coal companies and gas companies. Here is a basic picture of the underlying strata. No where does the Navajo sandstone rest on the pre-cambrian or come near the "great unconformity".


I don't know if you looked at that data for yourself or not,but each level of the Grand Staircase rest on the precambrian unconformity.

Lets start by looking at the second level "The Capital Reef".

The exposed geology of the Capitol Reef area presents a record of mostly Mesozoic-aged sedimentation in an area of North America in and around Capitol Reef National Park. Nearly 10,000 feet (3,000 m) of sedimentary strata are found in the Capitol Reef area, representing nearly 200 million years of geologic history of the south-central part of the U.S. state of Utah. These rocks range in age from Permian (as old as 270 million years old) to Cretaceous (as young as 80 million years old.) Rock layers in the area reveal ancient climates as varied as rivers and swamps (Chinle Formation), Sahara-like deserts (Navajo Sandstone), and shallow ocean (Mancos Shale).


http://en.wikipedia....pitol_Reef_area

Here is a cross-section.

Posted Image

As you can see the permian white rim sandstone rest comfortabily on the precambrian great unconformity.

Now lets look at the third level "Bryce Canyon".

The exposed geology of the Bryce Canyon area in Utah shows a record of deposition that covers the last part of the Cretaceous Period and the first half of the Cenozoic era in that part of North America. The ancient depositional environment of the region around what is now Bryce Canyon National Park varied from the warm shallow sea (called the Cretaceous Seaway) in which the Dakota Sandstone and the Tropic Shale were deposited to the cool streams and lakes that contributed sediment to the colorful Claron Formation that dominates the park's amphitheaters.


http://en.wikipedia....yce_Canyon_area

At Bryce Canyon the Navajo Sandstone rest on top of the precambrian Great Unconformity.


Here is a cross-section of all three levels.

Posted Image





Enjoy.

#34 jason777

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Posted 21 February 2009 - 01:00 AM

I love your predictions, but they are really quite wrong. You really want to claim that the best footprints are found only in exposed layers when animals were hopping down the sides of the Grand Canyon? The best footprints are found when layers of rock are removed and the fresh foot prints are found. The exposed footprints will become weathered with a few thousand years of exposure (depending on the rock). In the Grand Canyon, footprints are not found on the top but within the rocks on the cliff faces corresponding to the time that those layers were dry, or at least quite shallow. The top layers are once again marine layers with marine animals.


That is true for the Grand Canyon, but not true for many other canyons. Multiple volcanic layers are found in Dinosaur National Monument just north. In fact, many of the best preserved fossils around the world are found buried in ash (it keeps out the oxygen and helps preserve them). Here is a good link. There are many like this.
http://ashfall.unl.edu/


When you learn what layers are there and which ones are not there and how to correlate those layers then we can continue the discussion.Without that basic knowledge you would be unable to determine pre-flood,flood,and post-flood.In that case you would try to claim every geologic feature on the planet has to fit the flood model.





Thanks.

#35 jamesf

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Posted 21 February 2009 - 07:49 AM

Thanks James,
I don't know if you looked at that data for yourself or not,but each level of the Grand Staircase rest on the precambrian unconformity.

Lets start by looking at the second level "The Capital Reef".
http://en.wikipedia....pitol_Reef_area

Here is a cross-section.

Posted Image

As you can see the permian white rim sandstone rest comfortabily on the precambrian great unconformity.

View Post


Where does this say anything about the Cambrian or the unconformity? This particular graph does not show what is below the Permian. Your picture shows the geology above the Permian and says nothing at all about what is below. Although it provides a very nice description of the paleoenvironment that laid down each layer. I hope everyone takes a close look at that.

If you go to the link you provided you can see how the layers extend below the Permian exposed layers. The layer marked B represent the Permian layers. See how all the layers extend north (to the right) under Bryce Canyon?
http://en.wikipedia....yce_Canyon_area
Posted Image


The exposed geology of the Bryce Canyon area in Utah shows a record of deposition that covers the last part of the Cretaceous Period and the first half of the Cenozoic era in that part of North America. The ancient depositional environment of the region around what is now Bryce Canyon National Park varied from the warm shallow sea (called the Cretaceous Seaway) in which the Dakota Sandstone and the Tropic Shale were deposited to the cool streams and lakes that contributed sediment to the colorful Claron Formation that dominates the park's amphitheaters.


http://en.wikipedia....yce_Canyon_area

View Post


Nice quote. I accept the quote. Nice link. That is the one that explains what is found in the unexposed layers.

At Bryce Canyon the Navajo Sandstone rest on top of the precambrian Great Unconformity.
Here is a cross-section of all three levels.

Posted Image
Enjoy.

View Post


Are you joking with me? The graph simply says "older rocks not exposed". Do you know what that means? That says nothing about non-conformities. It simply means that you can not see these layers if you just stare at the cliff face.

To see the layers that are "not exposed", you need to drill into the rock as has been done many thousands of times by gas companies, coal companies, oil companies and curious geologists. From all these drill holes we know a great deal about the "rocks not exposed". When you drill through you see all the layers. Drill down in Bryce Canyon about 10,000 feet and you will find most of the layers you find in the Grand Canyon.

Do you understand that the graph below is the same as your graph, but it shows the layers that are "not exposed". I hope you understand that this is not controversial. The following picture even comes from a creation site (North is now to the left).

Posted Image
http://creationwiki....d_Staircase.jpg

Do you now realize that you have stromatolites that were 7500 years old and several tons in weight when they were buried in the Navajo Sandstone? And this Sandstone is 10,000 feet above the Cambrian layers. I am happy to help if this seems difficult.

James

#36 jason777

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Posted 21 February 2009 - 12:53 PM

Hi James,

Where does this say anything about the Cambrian or the unconformity? This particular graph does not show what is below the Permian. Your picture shows the geology above the Permian and says nothing at all about what is below. Although it provides a very nice description of the paleoenvironment that laid down each layer. I hope everyone takes a close look at that.


It's backed by scientific data,the Permian White Rim sandstone is the lowest layer above the great unconformity.I recommend you provide a source besides some vauge drawing thats who knows are how many centuries old.

Are you joking with me? The graph simply says "older rocks not exposed". Do you know what that means? That says nothing about non-conformities. It simply means that you can not see these layers if you just stare at the cliff face.

To see the layers that are "not exposed", you need to drill into the rock as has been done many thousands of times by gas companies, coal companies, oil companies and curious geologists. From all these drill holes we know a great deal about the "rocks not exposed". When you drill through you see all the layers. Drill down in Bryce Canyon about 10,000 feet and you will find most of the layers you find in the Grand Canyon.

Do you understand that the graph below is the same as your graph, but it shows the layers that are "not exposed". I hope you understand that this is not controversial. The following picture even comes from a creation site (North is now to the left).


It's not the same graph,it's a vauge illustration.

If you can provide a source that can verify the White Rim Sandsand stone is not the oldest layer above the precambrian,then you might be arguing outside of ignorance,until then.....

Do you now realize that you have stromatolites that were 7500 years old and several tons in weight when they were buried in the Navajo Sandstone? And this Sandstone is 10,000 feet above the Cambrian layers. I am happy to help if this seems difficult.


Again you have no idea what your talking about.The Capital reef is 10,000 feet thick.If we extend the top of the Grand Staircase over the cambrian in the Grand Canyon,it would be something like 3-4 miles thick.

You are aware that stromatilites grow in a formation side by side and they are only found at Capital Reef in a wide distribution not side by side.

Thats how we would expect to see them if they were transported there.





Thanks.

#37 jamesf

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Posted 21 February 2009 - 08:44 PM

Hi James,
It's backed by scientific data,the Permian White Rim sandstone is the lowest layer above the great unconformity.

View Post


Please point me to your scientific data or even a scientific claim made by any geologist. I can't imagine why you might believe this.

I recommend you provide a source besides some vauge drawing thats who knows are how many centuries old.

View Post


Here is the typical report you get from an oil geologist in Utah after the area is drilled.

"Paleozoic Stratigraphy and Oil Possibilities of Kaiparowits Region, Utah

Cambrian, Devonian, Mississippian, Pennsylvanian, and Permian sedimentary units are present in the subsurface, of which only the Permian is exposed. The lower Paleozoic strata are characteristic products of marine sedimentation on a broad platform bordering the Cordilleran geosyncline. Epeirogenic movements prior to the deposition of the Devonian, and again before Pennsylvanian beds were laid down, were responsible for regional unconformities in pre-Pennsylvanian rocks."

http://search.datapa...645000102C1865D

I can probably find a few hundred links like this. This is what oil, gas and coal geologist do for a living. There is no "old earth" motivation. Here is a cross section based on a number of such drillings a bit further north (near the oilsands)..

Posted Image
http://www.nevtahoil...hart1-large.jpg

So in the middle of the sedimentary layers we have huge stromatolites, fossilized forests still upright. They are no where near the bottom and show every sign that they grew there. And the evidence from fossils and footprints suggest that animals were alive and living to a ripe old age.

And you want to suggest these moved here during the flood? And the trees, termite mounds and stromatolites just happened to land upright?

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This one was estimated at 50 tons.
http://www.lakeneosh...t/38/index.html

Here is a fossilized upright termite mound in the Morrison formation. These are some of the highest layers in the Grand Staircase.
Posted Image
http://www.ldeo.colu...morisson14.html


Ok, your turn. Please provide a source for your "scientific claim" regarding what is below the Permian so that we can determine whether you are "arguing outside of ignorance" as you put it.

#38 jason777

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Posted 21 February 2009 - 09:13 PM

That was humorous James,I knew you could'nt support the claim so now you try to shift the location to a different area.the Kaiparowits Region, Utah is in the lower section of the Grand Staircase and has absolutely nothing to do with Capital Reef which is on the second level of the Grand Staircase. :mellow:

Good try,but no cigar.






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#39 jamesf

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Posted 22 February 2009 - 10:29 AM

That was humorous James,I knew you could'nt support the claim so now you try to shift the location to a different area.the Kaiparowits Region, Utah is in the lower section of the Grand Staircase and has absolutely nothing to do with Capital Reef which is on the second level of the Grand Staircase. :lol:

Good try,but no cigar.
Thanks.

View Post



Here is a link that allows you to look at the stratigraphy of any place you want in Utah including the Capital Reef area. It shows the rock type and shows the thickness of each layer all the way to the Cambrian. Just click on the tab on the link.
http://www.utahgeolo...riable=strat_91

However, it is now your turn to explain your logic. Why would you assume that the Permian was the lowest layer in the stratigraphy.

Were you assuming that because some of your charts stopped at the Permian then it must be granite underneath?

I have it easy, because I am just explaining the standard view supported by the oil companies, coal companies and the textbooks. By the 1840's it was known that different layers show entire developed eco-systems with delicate fossils unique to specific layers. They provide very very strong evidence that they lived and died in that layer. We have delicate animals that show no evidence of transport or turbulent flows. We have upright fossil forests scattered all over the earth at many many layers starting around the Devonian.

Sketch from 1883
http://www.geocities...history/vic.jpg
Posted Image

There are lots of fossil forests like this all over the planet. I believe that virtually all of these are on top of hundreds to thousands of feed of sedimentary layers providing very strong evidence that they grew there.
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And now you provide some wonderfully convincing evidence against a single worldwide flood. We have 50 ton upright 5 meter high stromatolites that are no where near the bottom of the sedimentary layers and they are many thousands of years old.


"Stromatolites are one of the most important features of Shark Bay. They
look like rocky lumps strewn around the beach but are actually built by
cyanobacteria. Within the structures are communities of diverse microbes with
population densities of 3000 million individuals per square meter. The organisms
combine with sediments and organic material to build stromatolites up to 5 feet
(1.5 m) high—up to 10 million times their size. Because they grow very slowly, a
3 foot (1 m) high stromatolite could be as much as 2000 years old.
"

However, it is now your turn to explain your logic. Why would you assume that the Permian was the lowest layer in the stratigraphy.

Look, we all make mistakes. I certainly make quite a few (just ask my wife). However, I would like to learn the reasons you believe the science points towards your view. What bit of science led you to the view that the great unconformity was underneath the Permian or underneath the Navajo Sandstone. I understand this is difficult for a flood view, if there are no Precambrian layers nearby. Is that your only reason? Or is there are geology report that conflicts with the standard geology?

I have shown you some of my evidence. I would now like to see yours.

James

#40 jason777

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Posted 22 February 2009 - 04:47 PM

Look, we all make mistakes. I certainly make quite a few (just ask my wife). However, I would like to learn the reasons you believe the science points towards your view. What bit of science led you to the view that the great unconformity was underneath the Permian or underneath the Navajo Sandstone. I understand this is difficult for a flood view, if there are no Precambrian layers nearby. Is that your only reason? Or is there are geology report that conflicts with the standard geology?



This cross-section is'nt pinpoint accurate,but it corroborates with the data provided by Wikipedia and the USGS.

Note the lower paleozoic is not found underneath the next level.
Posted Image

Your source said at the top of the page that "this data was collected on the fly" so I don't suspect accuracy is very high on their agenda.

Just to be certain I dispatched an e-mail to the USGS and the National Park Services asking them if they can verify their data.If the cambrian,ordivician,silurian,mississipian,and devonian existed underneath Capital Reef then i'm sure they would know and would have it their database.I'll let you know when they return my e-mail.

Could you tell my why you think forrest coverd by volcanic eruptions,lahars,landslides,and other local catastrophic events should of all happened during a global flood?I don't know of any creationists that would claim Mt. St. Helens occured during the flood or any other post-flood catastrophe.






Thanks.




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