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So Much Hate To Spew...


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#1 ikester7579

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Posted 02 January 2009 - 07:01 AM

I was surfing the web and ran across this so called ministry that practically condemns everything.

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/

This is a fine example of how a judgemental spirit can get going, and just goes over board. I am currently dealing with someone through e-mails that has this same attitude. Unless you believe as they do, you go straight to hell. Geez.

I was told that unless I believe osas I'm going straight to hell. This is one reason I got out of that belief. The true word of God makes one humble, not judgemental. And I get e-mails from osas believers all the time saying this. To me, it just reconfirms that I did the right thing by leaving it.

Osas = Once saved always saved.

#2 CTD

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Posted 02 January 2009 - 11:08 AM

I was surfing the web and ran across this so called ministry that practically condemns everything.

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/

This is a fine example of how a judgemental spirit can get going, and just goes over board. I am currently dealing with someone through e-mails that has this same attitude. Unless you believe as they do, you go straight to hell. Geez.

I was told that unless I believe osas I'm going straight to hell. This is one reason I got out of that belief. The true word of God makes one humble, not judgemental. And I get e-mails from osas believers all the time saying this. To me, it just reconfirms that I did the right thing by leaving it.

Osas = Once saved always saved.

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I've spent a few hours reading a wide assortment of pages at the site. Although I don't claim to have read everything, I tried to get a good idea what they're about. My assessment differs from yours by no small margin, and I have to say I disapprove of the title of this thread.

I haven't paid any real attention to the "OSAS" threads here (read a few posts and wasn't interested in arguing it) but I don't expect they contain this sort of language.

I recommend you re-evaluate your dispute and the terms you employ to express your disagreement. A body'd think they were preaching another gospel...

#3 ikester7579

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Posted 02 January 2009 - 05:32 PM

Maybe I need to clarify more.

1) I know not every osas believer has this attitude, but a lot of them do. I have met quite a few that constantly judge me and others to hell for not believing as they do. I don't believe that osas makes one hell bound, but taken to it's extreme as some will, it leaves me to question that it just might.

2) The ministry I linked to is actually trying to do good and I understand that. But here is the problem. So much negative stuff for a new in Christ to read may weaken their faith so that they may become to afraid to trust "any ministry", and turn away from God all together.

3) Also on every page they need to have a link to receive council about what they have just read. If a person gets very disturbed by what they read, and it weakens their faith. And they get no help in dealing with this and putting it into the Right prospective. They may fall away also.

Satan looks for avenues to enter into a Christian's life to work and destroy their faith. What better ministry to use for that purpose than one that condemns and then leaves you hanging to determine everything on your own?

The site is so set on judging others, they do not direct you to another ministry to follow. And it is already said on their e-mail page that they get so many e-mails they cannot answer them all. Which again leaves people hanging. If they cannot handle the load of their ministry to run it right, get help or close up.

Because like the shepherd is supposed to do, which is leave the flock to find the one who wondered away. This ministry is actually allowing people to wonder with no help in site. It's more or less: We get to you if we can. And a apology does not suffice when people maybe losing their faith because of this.

#4 de_skudd

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Posted 02 January 2009 - 07:03 PM

I was surfing the web and ran across this so called ministry that practically condemns everything.

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/

This is a fine example of how a judgemental spirit can get going, and just goes over board. I am currently dealing with someone through e-mails that has this same attitude. Unless you believe as they do, you go straight to hell. Geez.

I was told that unless I believe osas I'm going straight to hell. This is one reason I got out of that belief. The true word of God makes one humble, not judgemental. And I get e-mails from osas believers all the time saying this. To me, it just reconfirms that I did the right thing by leaving it.

Osas = Once saved always saved.

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Okay, I must admit, I'm totally ignorant of this "osas" movement (or what ever it is). But I did see some pretty disturbing messages there... What's up with that?

I use several different Bible translations, including interlinear translations, KJV, NKJV, NWS, NIV, The Masoretic Text,n Strong’s "Exhaustive" concordance, several Bible dictionaries etc… (Way too may to go into) But what’s up with the it’s the King James version or nothing?!?!?!

#5 CTD

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Posted 02 January 2009 - 07:52 PM

Maybe I need to clarify more.

1) I know not every osas believer has this attitude, but a lot of them do. I have met quite a few that constantly judge me and others to hell for not believing as they do. I don't believe that osas makes one hell bound, but taken to it's extreme as some will, it leaves me to question that it just might.

Discernment isn't automatic, or cut 'n' dried. That some make mistakes and attempt invalid shortcuts shouldn't be too surprising. The "osas" implication permeates the gospel, and for some it's difficult to acknowledge that a genuine believer could miss it. Sounds like a sort of hypothetical or "what-if" piece of speculation. But the world's a big place; scripture isn't always clearly understood; and confusion would exist even without promotion.

2) The ministry I linked to is actually trying to do good and I understand that. But here is the problem. So much negative stuff for a new in Christ to read may weaken their faith so that they may become to afraid to trust "any ministry", and turn away from God all together.

And using terminology like "spewing hate", the very same thing they get from the enemy, is likely to get them to listen to you because... ?

IMO, they could stand to present some more positive pictures. The new in Christ do not need to be shielded or kept uninformed about the enmity between spiritual and worldly - not one bit. But it's a downer looking at bad news exclusively.

3) Also on every page they need to have a link to receive council about what they have just read. If a person gets very disturbed by what they read, and it weakens their faith. And they get no help in dealing with this and putting it into the Right prospective. They may fall away also.

Satan looks for avenues to enter into a Christian's life to work and destroy their faith. What better ministry to use for that purpose than one that condemns and then leaves you hanging to determine everything on your own?

I haven't really given a lot of thought to all aspects of internet ministries. Maybe they assume too much about people's ability to use search engines and other tools. I hope they don't overestimate the Lord's capacity to provide for the needs of His children. It could be they don't intend to be a full-service ministry. I have to say that providing links as you suggest would be a good, consistent idea for specialized ministries. Now we need a way to get the suggestion heard.

The site is so set on judging others, they do not direct you to another ministry to follow. And it is already said on their e-mail page that they get so many e-mails they cannot answer them all. Which again leaves people hanging. If they cannot handle the load of their ministry to run it right, get help or close up.

One suspects their email does not all come from new, inquisitive Christians. One also expects, if they're sincere, they pray about these matters and look for guidance.

What you call "judging others" I really don't see much of. Unless you mean saying "this is wrong/unprofitable; don't do it or support it".

Because like the shepherd is supposed to do, which is leave the flock to find the one who wondered away. This ministry is actually allowing people to wonder with no help in site. It's more or less: We get to you if we can. And a apology does not suffice when people maybe losing their faith because of this.

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Calm down. If the Lord is leading so many to their ministry in the first place, I doubt He has any lack of contingency plans. When I have all the answers on how to run the ideal internet ministry, perhaps I'll be placed in charge of one. Until then, my burden is to pray and pitch in as opportunities are presented.

#6 CTD

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Posted 02 January 2009 - 08:30 PM

Okay, I must admit, I'm totally ignorant of this "osas" movement (or what ever it is). But I did see some pretty disturbing messages there... What's up with that?

People have come to believe salvation can be lost, and apparently there's a need to label those who disagree.

I use several different Bible translations, including interlinear translations, KJV, NKJV, NWS, NIV, The Masoretic Text,n Strong’s "Exhaustive" concordance, several Bible dictionaries etc… (Way too may to go into) But what’s up with the it’s the King James version or nothing?!?!?!

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This controversy's been around a while. You can assume it's all a tempest over nothing, or you can investigate.

Gives me the willies just touching any of the phony bibles. With what attitude does one approach a book that contains both God's Holy Word and Satan's propaganda? I think that's a quandry Satan intended to place me in, and I have no problem confessing his success.

I've actually been reviewing this a little lately as a sister I know took an interest. She's always used the Not-Intact Version, but she caught me watching a video on the revisions and was shocked. More interesting to me was the tactics I see in the debates. The revisionists behave exactly like evolutionists.

And the way they only half pretend to be reasonable about letting us keep our KJV is parallel with abortionists who say it's okay for individual women to choose life, but clearly prefer otherwise. The patronizing condescension of "allowing" me to keep my bible... Ha! But look at how the moment they have the numbers to do it, they try to make every pastor adopt a new age bible. Look at how "offended" they are, when they quote from these bogus books, and Christians look it up in a real Bible to find out the truth of the matter. :mellow: No, they don't have an agenda...

I have never questioned a person's salvation on the basis of using phony bibles. Not even to myself. But one who pushes a phony bible is another matter altogether. There's a big difference between being a victim of deceit, and willfully deceiving others. Anyone who says they've researched the history, and the phony bibles are the result of sincere desire to improve understanding of God's Word in English is a flat-out liar. That is a conclusion which is in direct conflict with the evidence.

#7 scott

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Posted 02 January 2009 - 09:25 PM

The thing we need to do is look at ourselves, and truly look at what we are saying.

What is salvation, and can we loose our salvation? Salvation is all about trusting in Jesus, and that He forgave us of all our sins. We must believe and continue to believe because that is how we are saved. Trusting and Believeing. Anyone can believe that Jesus exist, but not everyone trusts Jesus.

How can you have Salvation if you don't trust Jesus? If you don't trust Jesus then that automatically makes him your enemy right, or there is something you think Jesus is hiding like He is going to kick you eveytime your down, or make a mistake. Thats human reasoning. Jesus has the power to Forgive.

Lets take a closer look at the Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, and what is the unforgivable sin? Do we really even know enough about the verse to make a sound die hard judgement on it??? Is anyone absolutely sure what that scripture means??? I know I don't know enough about it, but there have been times in my life when I think that I have committed it. So, if I'm here right now can you truly say to me that there is no hope for my soul, and that I am lost for an eternity???

You see when I die, I know for a fact that God cannot say that He never knew me, because I have faith and trust in Him. I have trusted in God for many years of my life, so how in a moment of torment and anger that I call God something that He isn't that I now cannot or ever can be saved???

This mindset makes God look human, and childish. Why? Because if God cannot forgive someone for calling Him a name, then how can He expect His very own children to forgive others either???

So does anyone have any further knowledge on this??? I would very much like some answers, or opinions. This subject hits the very core of our beleifs, the very foundation.

#8 ikester7579

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Posted 03 January 2009 - 02:06 AM

Okay, I must admit, I'm totally ignorant of this "osas" movement (or what ever it is). But I did see some pretty disturbing messages there... What's up with that?

I use several different Bible translations, including interlinear translations, KJV, NKJV, NWS, NIV, The Masoretic Text,n Strong’s "Exhaustive" concordance, several Bible dictionaries etc… (Way too may to go into) But what’s up with the it’s the King James version or nothing?!?!?!

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A lot would disagree with me on this, and call me old fashion. But using the KJV only I happen to agree with and here's why.

Every time the Bible is translated, copyright laws says it has to be 10% different from all other versions out there. And the further you go, the more changes you have to make not to break that law.

Also, each translation is going to have input into it some of the author's interpretations of what he thinks certain things mean. Which will require certain word usages to make the reader see what he wants them to see. Like when I read the Genesis in the amplified Bible. I could tell that the person who wrote it was trying to promote the gap theory, and old earth theory just by the word usage.

So basically, using several versions means you will find what you want to be true, because one of the version will have it written in a way that you might like more than another does.

If I was going to use any other books to help me, it would be Greek and Hebrew books. And the Strong's concordance. In this way I would not be in a tug of war between what one translation said over another. It's hard enough when one translation seems to contradict itself, but add some more books and now you have to pick which one "sounds" right. Several translations don't make several new realities. But that is just my opinion.

#9 de_skudd

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Posted 03 January 2009 - 08:02 AM

A lot would disagree with me on this, and call me old fashion. But using the KJV only I happen to agree with and here's why.
Every time the Bible is translated, copyright laws says it has to be 10% different from all other versions out there. And the further you go, the more changes you have to make not to break that law.
Also, each translation is going to have input into it some of the author's interpretations of what he thinks certain things mean. Which will require certain word usages to make the reader see what he wants them to see. Like when I read the Genesis in the amplified Bible. I could tell that the person who wrote it was trying to promote the gap theory, and old earth theory just by the word usage.
So basically, using several versions means you will find what you want to be true, because one of the version will have it written in a way that you might like more than another does.
If I was going to use any other books to help me, it would be Greek and Hebrew books. And the Strong's concordance. In this way I would not be in a tug of war between what one translation said over another. It's hard enough when one translation seems to contradict itself, but add some more books and now you have to pick which one "sounds" right. Several translations don't make several new realities. But that is just my opinion.

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I’m old fashion as well, and to me that means (first and foremost), that I cross reference any translations and/or transliterations against the original languages using all the recourses available to me. It’s the same way I approach logic, philosophy and science, and even evolution (to name a few). This is where interlinear books, concordances (etc…) come in handy. But, to rule out other translations in favor of the King James version (which has foibles inherent to it’s translation as well) is like keeping one eye blinded.

When you recognize (re-cognize) the intent in a translation, such as “the Genesis in the amplified Bible”, you can determine the issues of the translator. This gives you the edge that allows you to better refute and/or explain the problems to other believers. This is the same way we refute evolution, liberal theology and liberal logic. And that is by knowing where they err, coming up with sound reasoning to correct the error, and reasoning with others (hopefully) to show them the error. If you do any case studies of the Apostle Paul (or any other of our great Biblical Apologists) you’ll see him use this quite effectively.

If you are using ANY materials to make them agree with you, or to promulgate your view, or make them fit your truth, you are ultimately fighting a losing battle. This is in-and-of itself one of the main reasons I am no longer an atheist that believes in evolution. The circular reasoning, circular pseudo-science, and fragmentary gap filling to support an evolutionary model makes no sense…

And, if you find contradictory translations, and you’ve educated yourself using all available recourses, you are better able to reason and show truth…. BTW, the Bible tells us to do this… But that’s another conversation…

#10 de_skudd

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Posted 03 January 2009 - 10:27 AM

The thing we need to do is look at ourselves, and truly look at what we are saying.

What is salvation, and can we loose our salvation?  Salvation is all about trusting in Jesus, and that He forgave us of all our sins.  We must believe and continue to believe because that is how we are saved.  Trusting and Believeing.  Anyone can believe that Jesus exist, but not everyone trusts Jesus.

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Scott, I in no way want to make this sound like a cop-out. Although, the questions you post here are really good ones, they (at their base) cannot be answered without going into great detail. Much scripture (the most important ingredient) logic and time would go into it, and it would easily become convoluted and prone to going off on tangents due to those intricacies.

The main suggestions I could make is to go back to any and all scriptures dealing with salvation, don’t pretend that you already have the answers, keep them in context of the overall message they are representative of. Then and only then can you have a firm foundation to build upon.

The questions you have to ask yourself in these studies are: 1- What is salvation? 2- Are there really instances in scripture where believers have fallen away from the faith, and slipped from this fleshy existence in that state? Does Jesus talk about the probability or actuality of this happening? Do the writers of the books of the Bible comment on the possibility of this happening?

I have found that I “personally” need to do these studies, and lean on that, more than on the opinions of others. Once I have a good idea of the Biblical foundations concerning this, the better equipped I am to discuss these things (in the depth you’re asking), in an open forum…. Also, don’t get me wrong, I am not condemning you for asking the question, I am only giving my opinion. So please, don’t take this post the wrong way…

I am not going to answer the salvation question right now, because I know you are going to get many different answers for it. And I would rather have the scriptural foundation at my finger tips (which I don’t have compiled right here and now) before I presented you with the options.

I will answer this question emphatically though… Trusting and believing comes from experience and evidence, because; “Faith comes from hearing, and hearing from the word of God” < Romans 10:17> …. And one must “Study to show yourself approved to God, a workman that needs not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth” <2 Timothy 2:15>….

#11 scott

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Posted 03 January 2009 - 05:44 PM

Scott, I in no way want to make this sound like a cop-out. Although, the questions you post here are really good ones, they (at their base) cannot be answered without going into great detail. Much scripture (the most important ingredient) logic and time would go into it, and it would easily become convoluted and prone to going off on tangents due to those intricacies.

The main suggestions I could make is to go back to any and all scriptures dealing with salvation, don’t pretend that you already have the answers, keep them in context of the overall message they are representative of. Then and only then can you have a firm foundation to build upon.

The questions you have to ask yourself in these studies are: 1- What is salvation? 2- Are there really instances in scripture where believers have fallen away from the faith, and slipped from this fleshy existence in that state?  Does Jesus talk about the probability or actuality of this happening? Do the writers of the books of the Bible comment on the possibility of this happening?

I have found that I “personally” need to do these studies, and lean on that, more than on the opinions of others. Once I have a good idea of the Biblical foundations concerning this, the better equipped I am to discuss these things (in the depth you’re asking), in an open forum…. Also, don’t get me wrong, I am not condemning you for asking the question, I am only giving my opinion. So please, don’t take this post the wrong way…

I am not going to answer the salvation question right now, because I know you are going to get many different answers for it. And I would rather have the scriptural foundation at my finger tips (which I don’t have compiled right here and now) before I presented you with the options.

I will answer this question emphatically though… Trusting and believing comes from experience and evidence, because; “Faith comes from hearing, and hearing from the word of God” < Romans 10:17> …. And one must “Study to show yourself approved to God, a workman that needs not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth” <2 Timothy 2:15>….

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I do agree, simply because I think I was simply leaning into my own understanding. The Bible is deffinetly a great place to start learning what the basic foundation of our Salvation is, and how it could be lost, because it is the Word of God.

I too believe I am going to have to study the Word of God a lot more on this one to make any kind of sound judgement. Anyways, I like to use the original King James Version.

#12 ikester7579

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Posted 04 January 2009 - 01:35 AM

If you guys would like, I can start another thread on whether salvation can be lost.

#13 Adam Nagy

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Posted 04 January 2009 - 05:09 AM

If you guys would like, I can start another thread on whether salvation can be lost.

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That would be great. I think the only problem with the concept of "Once Saved Always Saved" is the fact that it's rarely qualified with understanding. The last time I checked the only kind of life Jesus has on offer is the eternal variety but to understand what we are looking at with supposed backsliders, blasphemers and those that fit the real deal, some qualification is needed and some good old scripture inquiry.

BTW, since the vote seemed to be out there. I tried to fit the whole KJV only shoe on and it never quite fit. Kent H*vind has the best arguments for this position and I respect friends of mine who are hard KJV only Christians. When in doubt I'll very carefully consider the KJV Bible before believing I have a solid argument about what scripture is saying in any particular passage but usually this means having my nose buried in an interlinear bible too.

I don't think the Bible translation you're using taints your understanding of scripture nearly as much as your pride and preconceived notions.

I've heard valid arguments on both sides. I like collecting Bibles so I have a bunch of them. I have a tendency to use the NKJV as my translation of choice after I've turned over every rock and kicked every dog.

I think it's a little weird to be so dogmatic about the KJV. If I could get the phrase; "If it was good enough for the Apostle Paul it's good enough for me." out of my mouth then I'd be a KJV only guy but that just isn't the case. Some of the best translations of the Bible are in French and German from what I understand.

I think God is letting us know that He preserves His Word supernaturally and the Multiply Bible translations shouldn't bother us anymore then not having the original manuscripts should bother us. Besides, bibliolatry is just as much a potential form of idolatry as any type of idolatry.

Adam

#14 Dave

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Posted 04 January 2009 - 12:54 PM

Once the discussion about OSAS gets going, I'd like to point out something that all must consider every time they post.

In loss-of-salvation discussions it's important to distinguish what is being acted on: Is it the Spirit, the Soul or the Body? It makes a huge difference, especially when the scripture talks about death or dying, if God means our spirit, our soul, or our body. The three are vastly different in God's eyes.

I think every post on the subject should discern and qualify just which one of the three they believe applies to the scripture they are quoting.

I believe that in the OSAS/Non-OSAS debate most of the disagreement arises from not carely discerning which of the three God is talking about.

Isaac, please move this post into the OSAS thread when you get it started. Thanks.

Dave




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