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#1 ikester7579

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Posted 04 January 2009 - 01:23 PM

This is a branch off another thread. I will be moving posts in here from that thread. I am taking the osas excerpts from each post..

Me: I know not every osas believer has this attitude, but a lot of them do. I have met quite a few that constantly judge me and others to hell for not believing as they do. I don't believe that osas makes one hell bound, but taken to it's extreme as some will, it leaves me to question that it just might.


I haven't paid any real attention to the "OSAS" threads here (read a few posts and wasn't interested in arguing it) but I don't expect they contain this sort of language.


Okay, I must admit, I'm totally ignorant of this "osas" movement (or what ever it is). But I did see some pretty disturbing messages there... What's up with that?


Discernment isn't automatic, or cut 'n' dried. That some make mistakes and attempt invalid shortcuts shouldn't be too surprising. The "osas" implication permeates the gospel, and for some it's difficult to acknowledge that a genuine believer could miss it. Sounds like a sort of hypothetical or "what-if" piece of speculation. But the world's a big place; scripture isn't always clearly understood; and confusion would exist even without promotion.

People have come to believe salvation can be lost, and apparently there's a need to label those who disagree.


The thing we need to do is look at ourselves, and truly look at what we are saying.

What is salvation, and can we loose our salvation? Salvation is all about trusting in Jesus, and that He forgave us of all our sins. We must believe and continue to believe because that is how we are saved. Trusting and Believeing. Anyone can believe that Jesus exist, but not everyone trusts Jesus.

How can you have Salvation if you don't trust Jesus? If you don't trust Jesus then that automatically makes him your enemy right, or there is something you think Jesus is hiding like He is going to kick you eveytime your down, or make a mistake. Thats human reasoning. Jesus has the power to Forgive.

Lets take a closer look at the Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, and what is the unforgivable sin? Do we really even know enough about the verse to make a sound die hard judgement on it??? Is anyone absolutely sure what that scripture means??? I know I don't know enough about it, but there have been times in my life when I think that I have committed it. So, if I'm here right now can you truly say to me that there is no hope for my soul, and that I am lost for an eternity???

You see when I die, I know for a fact that God cannot say that He never knew me, because I have faith and trust in Him. I have trusted in God for many years of my life, so how in a moment of torment and anger that I call God something that He isn't that I now cannot or ever can be saved???

This mindset makes God look human, and childish. Why? Because if God cannot forgive someone for calling Him a name, then how can He expect His very own children to forgive others either???

So does anyone have any further knowledge on this??? I would very much like some answers, or opinions. This subject hits the very core of our beleifs, the very foundation.


Scott, I in no way want to make this sound like a cop-out. Although, the questions you post here are really good ones, they (at their base) cannot be answered without going into great detail. Much scripture (the most important ingredient) logic and time would go into it, and it would easily become convoluted and prone to going off on tangents due to those intricacies.

The main suggestions I could make is to go back to any and all scriptures dealing with salvation, don’t pretend that you already have the answers, keep them in context of the overall message they are representative of. Then and only then can you have a firm foundation to build upon.

The questions you have to ask yourself in these studies are: 1- What is salvation? 2- Are there really instances in scripture where believers have fallen away from the faith, and slipped from this fleshy existence in that state? Does Jesus talk about the probability or actuality of this happening? Do the writers of the books of the Bible comment on the possibility of this happening?

I have found that I “personally” need to do these studies, and lean on that, more than on the opinions of others. Once I have a good idea of the Biblical foundations concerning this, the better equipped I am to discuss these things (in the depth you’re asking), in an open forum…. Also, don’t get me wrong, I am not condemning you for asking the question, I am only giving my opinion. So please, don’t take this post the wrong way…

I am not going to answer the salvation question right now, because I know you are going to get many different answers for it. And I would rather have the scriptural foundation at my finger tips (which I don’t have compiled right here and now) before I presented you with the options.

I will answer this question emphatically though… Trusting and believing comes from experience and evidence, because; “Faith comes from hearing, and hearing from the word of God” < Romans 10:17> …. And one must “Study to show yourself approved to God, a workman that needs not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth” <2 Timothy 2:15>….


I do agree, simply because I think I was simply leaning into my own understanding. The Bible is deffinetly a great place to start learning what the basic foundation of our Salvation is, and how it could be lost, because it is the Word of God.

I too believe I am going to have to study the Word of God a lot more on this one to make any kind of sound judgement. Anyways, I like to use the original King James Version.


I think the only problem with the concept of "Once Saved Always Saved" is the fact that it's rarely qualified with understanding. The last time I checked the only kind of life Jesus has on offer is the eternal variety but to understand what we are looking at with supposed backsliders, blasphemers and those that fit the real deal, some qualification is needed and some good old scripture inquiry.


Once the discussion about OSAS gets going, I'd like to point out something that all must consider every time they post.

In loss-of-salvation discussions it's important to distinguish what is being acted on: Is it the Spirit, the Soul or the Body? It makes a huge difference, especially when the scripture talks about death or dying, if God means our spirit, our soul, or our body. The three are vastly different in God's eyes.

I think every post on the subject should discern and qualify just which one of the three they believe applies to the scripture they are quoting.

I believe that in the OSAS/Non-OSAS debate most of the disagreement arises from not carefully discerning which of the three God is talking about.



#2 ikester7579

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Posted 04 January 2009 - 01:46 PM

Before we start, I think everyone here needs to clarify where the stand on this issue. This will save a lot of argumenting as others here try to figure this out. Here are the three options.

1) Osas (once saved always save which means that one cannot lose salvation).
2) Don't know or neutral. Which could mean you never really thought about it, discussed it. Or you just don't know where your denomination stands on this issue.
3) No-osas. Which is the oppsoite of osas. It means you can fall away from salvation.

Those who take osas to an "extreme" often use the doctrine as an excuse to sin. And claim salvation is a ticket to sin. Which I know is not what every osas believer believes.

Those who take no-osas to an extreme use it as a scare tactic to make people do good. And will also claim that each time you sin, you lose your salvation. Which is wrong.

So both sides have different levels of belief within the doctrine. And some of those people abuse the doctrine as shown. I am hoping that since I have put this up, that this will not come up unless someone actually believes that way from either side.

To clarify what I believe: I do believe a person can lose salvation. And in the following posts, I will lst the reason why.

#3 ikester7579

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Posted 04 January 2009 - 09:37 PM

Probably the strongest points for no-osas are these:

1) acts 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith
himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

David was considered the apple of God's eye, and a man after God's own heart. And osas believers believe that all old testament saints were accepted into the new covenant. If so, what happened to David? Could it be that because he had a man murdered because he wanted his wife? For if salvation is not losable, then David's place in Heaven should have been secure. But it was not.

2) If Christ came to give life, then who are these people?

1thess 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout,
with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead
in Christ
shall rise first:

Who are the dead in Christ if we cannot lose our salvation? Salvation
brings eternal life, correct? So how can one be alive in Christ and dead at the
same time?

3) And then we have the unforgivable sin. Osas says that it's the unsaved
sinner that is the only one who can commit this sin. So let's test this. A
unsaved sinner is already damned for hell, correct? So if he commits the
unforgivable sin, does he become double damned to a double hot hell? No?

The shed blood of Christ has to forgive "all sin" before salvation can be
given as a gift, correct? So if salvation can be denied even before it is
given. Then sin becomes stronger than salvation. I think you all know that
this is not right either.

4) Then we have actual removal from the body of Christ.

Revelation 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

One cannot be spued from the body, unless one is already in the body. For how can a unsaved sinner be spued from the body of Christ because they were luke warm, if they were never in there? So this applies to the saved.

Side note: John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Revelation 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

Now, do you think it was by mistake that one chapter and verse of the same numbers tells you how to get into the body of Christ, while the other tells you how to be removed?

Now these are not the only things for no-osas, but these things do not come up during regular osas vs. no-osas debates.

5) Having your name "removed" from the book of life:

Revelation 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Now, is the unsaved sinner in the book of life? No? Then you have to have your name in it before it can be removed, correct? So if your name is not there on judgement day because it was "removed", then what happens? Do you still go to heaven?

#4 ikester7579

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Posted 05 January 2009 - 01:27 AM

One of the main arguments fo osas is the verse about plucking out of the hand.

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.

Now I can see the logic here (I used to believe osas), but some thing was not right because if you believe that hands are a representation of salvation, then those others verses I listed are in contradiction.

So to ake sure, I tested the hand theory using God's word. I could not find one verse that was a reference to hands and salvation concerning God the Father or the Son. But what I did find was interesting. I found that hands connected to the Father and Son in judgment.

Christ throne:

Matthew 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Now notice that the people in front of this throne were not judged for faith, believing, or anything else along those lines. What got them in front of that throne was that they were all in the covenant. What thedetermining factor whether some went to hell or heaven, was whether they did the kingdom works required as a "condition" of the covenant they were in.

You see, there are 2 types of works.
1) Carnal works. Which are works that are not done for the kingdom, or works done by a unsaved sinner who thinks he can work his way to heaven.
2) Kingdom works. These works are a condition of the covenant. And can only be done by those in the covenant before they have any merit in heaven.

So if you think the judgement of Christ was a judgement of whether someone believed or not, then show me where in those verses that was done? That judgement was whether we did what the covenant requires of us. What is the requirement?

1) If we choose to be sheep, then our life has to reflect what we are and we have to be that example unto others.
2) If we choose to be the shepherd, then we have to rise to that standard and do what the shepherd is suppose to do.

No-osas is not about working your way to heaven. It is about sticking to the covenant conditions of what we are called to do, and what that position may require of us. And you do not lose salvation everytime you sin. Loss of salvation is a heart felt condition where by choice you turn away from God.

#5 CTD

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Posted 05 January 2009 - 08:13 AM

No-osas is not about working your way to heaven. It is about sticking to the covenant conditions of what we are called to do, and what that position may require of us. And you do not lose salvation everytime you sin. Loss of salvation is a heart felt condition where by choice you turn away from God.

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The whole thing is moot, for practical purposes. The "osas" believer can categorize those who aren't forgiven for whatever reason as unsaved, and the (what? "conditional salvation") believer can say they were saved but lost it.

Unless one is going to mandate works, of course.

I don't get what you're saying about David. I see no reason to expect him to be caught up directly into heaven in any case, and we are informed of what the sin in question cost him. If there was some additional penalty the report is incomplete. Not impossible, but unlikely.

Your "dead in Christ argument" doesn't seem right. As it is impossible to be spiritually dead in Christ, I think almost everyone understands this as referring to physical, temporary death. If you think the term 'death' in scripture must always refer to spiritual death, you are mistaken. How in that case could Jesus die?

Your interpretation of the lukewarm in Revelation is new to me. It's my understanding that churches are the subject - not individuals. Even so, the spewing does not clearly indicate loss of salvation.

I trust such an important issue would be clearly indicated. All others are in one place or another. But most of what you list is not evident. The sin of blaspheming the Holy Spirit, and the potential blotting out of names are the only ones that are clear. Yet one cannot say that either have been done by a genuine believer, or ever will be done. You could also list taking the beast's mark there too. That's another thing I just don't imagine any disciple will try.

So are we say "what if"? Other arguments are more interesting and more entertaining, thank you. I don't believe one can be unborn again. I don't believe a new creature can become a new old creature.

If you find some verses difficult to reconcile with "osas", I suggest there may be other solutions which don't involve calling salvation into question. There's no merit in unwarranted doubt, and we have plenty of other resources if we should somehow find ourselves in need of that commodity. I consider moot excuses to doubt more of a danger for the young in Christ than anything I saw at that site you were criticizing in the other thread, if you want the truth.

#6 ikester7579

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Posted 05 January 2009 - 12:30 PM

The whole thing is moot, for practical purposes. The "osas" believer can categorize those who aren't forgiven for whatever reason as unsaved, and the (what? "conditional salvation") believer can say they were saved but lost it.

Unless one is going to mandate works, of course.


In the works judgment, there is a comment said that explains this.

Saved by fire:

1cor 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Now, is there a fire in Heaven that people will burn in, or is that fire in Hell? And why have a works judgment unless works matter? Why save someone with fire unless through the works judgement they lost what had given them salvation. Can you be saved twice? And for what reason? You can only obtain what you have lost. That is the reason if a person works burn up, the same fire that burns the works must now save. And during judgement, there will be only one burning place, right?

Now where was the works judgment done? When Christ judged us at His throne, did He judge us for our faith, or our works?

1) I was thristy, you gave me no drink.
2) I was hungery, you gave me no meat.
3) I was a stranger, you took me not in.
4) Naked, and ye clothed me not.
5) Sick, and in prison, and ye visit me not.

Now is our faith being questioned? Nope. Is whether we were saved being questioned? Nope. What we did (kingdom works) is being questioned.

Now if there are people (goats) being condemned for not doing kingdom works, how can they be condemned if the works were not required of them? You see the goats and the sheep were one and the same people (saved). That is why they stood together in front of Christ's throne. And Christ had to separate them from the sheep. They were once sheep.

You see, those who are unsaved are in Hell, there is not one verse that says that Christ will judge anyone that was pulled from Hell. So all that stand before Christ, are in the covenant (raptured). The ones separated (goats) were the ones who, for what ever reason, refused to do the kingdom works (conditions of the covenant). Now if you are going to bring up that I am condoning works for salvation, then you are also going to have to explain why the goats were thrown into hell for not doing them. And if you think the goats are unsaved people, then you will have to provide verses that say unsaved people are goats (there are none).

I don't get what you're saying about David. I see no reason to expect him to be caught up directly into heaven in any case, and we are informed of what the sin in question cost him. If there was some additional penalty the report is incomplete. Not impossible, but unlikely.

Your "dead in Christ argument" doesn't seem right. As it is impossible to be spiritually dead in Christ, I think almost everyone understands this as referring to physical, temporary death. If you think the term 'death' in scripture must always refer to spiritual death, you are mistaken. How in that case could Jesus die?



Now why tag those being thrown into hell as goats, while everyone else there are considered unsaved sinners? Because there are three types of people in Hell (a trinity).

1) The usaved sinners. Those why rejected God.
2) The dead in Christ (those from the old covenant who did not rise when Christ did).
mt 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Many does not equal "all". And the word usage of who were worthy is saints. And that some did not make it.
3) The goats from the judgment throne of Christ.

Out of the three groups, only two have the possibility of getting to heaven through the phrase: Saved by fire. Why? Once you have failed the judgment of the "new" covenant, what's left? The old covenant. And what was one of the sin sacrafices of the old covenant? Goats. Goats being put in a fire is sin atonement.

Now the reason the Dead in Christ are labelled as such, is because:

1) They died in the old covenant.
2) They did not rise with Christ and the other saints.

Dying in the old covenant means that the laws of that covenant applied to you (death sealed that), and the covenant of Christ could not help you. So you were dead to what Christ did on the cross. Because Christ did not shed his blood for the dead (those from the old covenant), He shed His blood for the living. That is also why it is also never said that anyone dead is at Christ's throne. In the new covenant, no one is left in their graves like they were in the old covenant. So when you die now, your soul goes to where it is supposed to be. So all the dead people, ( from the new covenant) were already waiting in Heaven to be judged. The rapture was the only thing that brought people there to start the judgement process.

Your interpretation of the lukewarm in Revelation is new to me. It's my understanding that churches are the subject - not individuals. Even so, the spewing does not clearly indicate loss of salvation.


Churches don't get judged before the throne, individuals do. There are people in those churches that still can enter Heaven, and here's why:

jas 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

The key to a sin being against you is having the knowledge of that sin. So if a faithful person is in a unworthy church and is truly duped (unknowingly). Then they have no knowledge of that sin. So there is a chance they will not go to hell. Because if whole churches are going to hell, why not just separate by church for judgement instead of individually? And besides that, the church does not save us, Christ does.

I trust such an important issue would be clearly indicated. All others are in one place or another. But most of what you list is not evident. The sin of blaspheming the Holy Spirit, and the potential blotting out of names are the only ones that are clear. Yet one cannot say that either have been done by a genuine believer, or ever will be done. You could also list taking the beast's mark there too. That's another thing I just don't imagine any disciple will try.


What you imply here is that there are certain sins a believer cannot commit. I have yet to see anyone provide verses supporting that. Because if this were true, why not just go all the way and God make us sinless when we are saved? It would be so much easier.

So are we say "what if"? Other arguments are more interesting and more entertaining, thank you. I don't believe one can be unborn again. I don't believe a new creature can become a new old creature.


Are we puppets with no choice once we get saved? Does God run a controlled matrix where our minds are controlled and we are predestined? You see once you take away choice, you take away free will. Once you take away free will you step into the realm of being predestined. Once you step into being predestined, you step into Calvinism. This is why osas works so well for Calvinists. It borders right on being predestined, that is if you are not a Calvinist already. Which makes the osas believer acceptable to their views.

If you find some verses difficult to reconcile with "osas", I suggest there may be other solutions which don't involve calling salvation into question. There's no merit in unwarranted doubt, and we have plenty of other resources if we should somehow find ourselves in need of that commodity. I consider moot excuses to doubt more of a danger for the young in Christ than anything I saw at that site you were criticizing in the other thread, if you want the truth.

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To find the truth on this subject, instead of making it conform to your view of what you want it to be ( I suggest there may be other solutions which don't involve calling salvation into question). You have to become neutral and allow the word to guide you along with the Holy Spirit.

Not to insult you, but to make the word conform to a doctrine. Is like making evidence conform to a theory. Only one way can lead to the truth.

#7 scott

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Posted 05 January 2009 - 12:56 PM

The people taken from hell will be judged according to these verses:

Revelation 20: 13-15 " And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works."

"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."

"And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

There may be a bit of predestination given this verse:

Revelation 22:19 " And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."

So, how can God take away someones part of the book of life, without that person already being in the book of life?

#8 Dave

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Posted 05 January 2009 - 01:49 PM

Isaac,

The "sheep and goats" judgment takes place at the end of the tribulation to judge those who survived the persecutions of the antichrist and the judgments of God, and who are still alive at the end of those tumultuous seven years.

They aren't the dead from times past. They aren't pulled out of graves for this judgment. They are the ones left alive when the Lord comes in His glory to sit upon His throne.

Please read virtually any commentary on Matthew 25 to see that what I am saying is true.

Dave

#9 ikester7579

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Posted 05 January 2009 - 06:07 PM

The people taken from hell will be judged according to these verses:

Revelation 20: 13-15  " And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works."

"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.  This is the second death."

"And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."


You are right. Both covenants require kingdom works. But to be judged by either, you first have to be in one of them.

There may be a bit of predestination given this verse:

Revelation 22:19  " And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."


When the Bible speaks of future and past knowledge, it's not so much predestined unless it's prophecy. And here's why. Eternity works different from non-eternity. That is because what happens in eternity is not restricted by time. Once you are in eternity, you are known from beginning to end. And because God is the Alpha and Omega, He knew you before you are born because the eternity time-line, and how it works, allows this.

God can see your life before you are born because being the Alpha and Omega allows this. God can be anywhere in our time that He needs to be. Being able to do this gives Him future knowledge. Not predestined knowledge.

Example: Let's say that you could see the future of your unborn child. Just because you could see he was going to be a doctor, does that make him predestined to be one regardless? As long as choice is an option, that future can change.

So, how can God take away someones part of the book of life, without that person already being in the book of life?

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You cannot. It's like having dinner reservations. Your name cannot be removed unless you were already written in.

#10 ikester7579

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Posted 05 January 2009 - 09:21 PM

Isaac,

The "sheep and goats" judgment takes place at the end of the tribulation to judge those who survived the persecutions of the antichrist and the judgments of God, and who are still alive at the end of those tumultuous seven years.

They aren't the dead from times past. They aren't pulled out of graves for this judgment. They are the ones left alive when the Lord comes in His glory to sit upon His throne.

Please read virtually any commentary on Matthew 25 to see that what I am saying is true.

Dave

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Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

There is no judgment for those who survive or martyr themselves. This is why only they get white robes. White robes is a sign of purity.

Revelation 7: After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

So anyone deemed worthy to go to heaven from the tribulation, will receive white robes. They will not be judged, and will already be serving God.

#11 scott

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Posted 05 January 2009 - 09:26 PM

You are right. Both covenants require kingdom works. But to be judged by either, you first have t be in one of them.
When the Bible speaks of future and past knowledge, it's not so much predestined unless it prophecy. And here's why. Eternity works different from non-eternity. That is because what happens in eternity is not restricted by time. Once you are in eternity, you are known from beginning to end. And because God is the Alpha and Omega, He know you before you are born because the eternity time-line and how it works allows this.

God can see your life before you are born because being the Alpha and Omega allows this. God can be anywhere in our time that He needs to be. Being able to do this gives Him future knowledge. Not predestined knowledge.

Example: Let's say that you could see the future of yur unborn child. Just because you could see he was going to be a doctor, does that make him predestined to be one regardless? As long as choice is an option, that future can change.
You cannot. It's like having dinner reservations. Your name cannot be removed unless you were already written in.

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I believe your right! Because your name might be forseen as written in the book of life, but can still be blotted out.

Having your name written in the book of life, gives you a right to passage towards the tree of life! Genesis and Revelation are tied by the Tree of Life. I believe the tree of life was so heavily guarded in the garden of Eden because it held the gift of eternal life. The only way to get there, is through Jesus Christ.

I don't stand absolute on this though, but I do have my reasons for believeing it. I do believe in a way that God is the master of puppets though in a way. Simply because if your soul is required today, then it will be taken that day regardless of what that person wants.

Ecclesiastes 3:1 " To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven."

I believe God is ultimately in control. When people see natural disasters, murders, rapes... There are reasons for it all, but we also have to remember Job and when he questioned God, and God answered: Job 38:1-6 " Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?"

" Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me."

" Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding."

" Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?"

" Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof?"

Also Job 40:8 God said : " Wilt thou disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?"

God has a plan, but I think we shouldn't be so quick to judge God.

#12 ikester7579

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Posted 05 January 2009 - 09:36 PM

Here are some verses that make it more clear. You see Moses knew his people had done a terrible thing, watch what he asks of God.

Exodus 32:32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.

33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

#13 scott

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Posted 05 January 2009 - 09:49 PM

Here are some verses that make it more clear. You see Moses knew his people had done a terrible thing, watch what he asks of God.

Exodus 32:32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.

33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

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Thats why Jesus death and resurrection was so very important, because it opened the doors for forgiveness. Eternal Salvation.

My question is this, since every sin is basically a sin against God, Jesus blood allows forgiveness correct??? Repentance, accepting the truth, believeing in Jesus, and obeying Jesus.

Now, would the sin of rejecting Jesus' plan of salvation ultimately be the unforgivable sin??? What about the Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Is this what it is?

I've heard people mention that if your saved, and you blaspheme the Holy Spirit, then you've committed the unforgivable sin because only believers can commit it.

Well, looking back at the pharasees shows that they were not believers in Jesus Christ, so I'm thinking that Rejecting the Holy Spirit/Jesus is it. How can one be forgiven if you don't ask?

#14 ikester7579

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Posted 05 January 2009 - 11:08 PM

Thats why Jesus death and resurrection was so very important, because it opened the doors for forgiveness.  Eternal Salvation.


Sin atonement was forgivness. But Moses was afraid of God's rath upon the people. Possibly allowing them to die in their sin.

My question is this, since every sin is basically a sin against God, Jesus blood allows forgiveness correct???  Repentance, accepting the truth, believeing in Jesus, and obeying Jesus.

Now, would the sin of rejecting Jesus' plan of salvation ultimately be the unforgivable sin???  What about the Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.  Is this what it is?


No, rejecting Jesus is not Blaphemy. A unsaved sinner "rejects" Christ. A saved person "turns away or falls away". So you have to watch the wording. It's easy to get confused.

I've heard people mention that if your saved, and you blaspheme the Holy Spirit, then you've committed the unforgivable sin because only believers can commit it.


This is true, and here is why. If you can be denied salvation before it is given. Then sin becomes stronger than what Christ did on the cross. Christ died to forgive all sin, not a select few. So this would apply only after salvation.

Like I said before. An unsaved person is already damned. If they commit the unforgivable sin, do they become double damned? Sounds silly don't it?

Well, looking back at the pharasees shows that they were not believers in Jesus Christ, so I'm thinking that Rejecting the Holy Spirit/Jesus is it.  How can one be forgiven if you don't ask?

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There is a difference between someone who rejects because they are unsure, and have a soft heart that is still open to God. And someone who rejects and has a hard heart that is not open to God.

And then there is the curse of the reprobate. It's where someone "knows" the truth, understands it, but chooses to believe a lie instead. God gives them up to a reprobate mind that is basically where they cannot descern between right and wrong.

#15 ikester7579

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Posted 06 January 2009 - 11:36 PM

To also prove that some from hell will get to Heaven, when Christ died and went into hell. What was one of the things that He did?

Preaching in hell?

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

There is only one message that is considered preaching in the Bible. And that is the message of salvation. Now if Christ were to preach hope (going to heaven) unto the hopeless (Not going to heaven). Then His message would be a deception. A deception is a lie. So when Christ preached the message of salvation in hell, to make it true, some of those in hell have to have a chance to reach heaven. To make it a lie, all in hell have to be bound to be thrown into the Lake of Fire. So can Christ lie? No? Which means what? He preached in hell for a reason.

Example: Let's say you are a preacher. Now why would you preach to a congregation to has no chance what so ever to reach Heaven because they are bound for Hell? Would not it be a waste of time, effort, and words? Now do you think Christ preached to waste His time, effort, and words?

Now, the other end of this would be: Why did Christ go to Hell? 2 things.

1) He went there to get the keys to Death, and Hell.
rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
2) To preach a message to those in Hell who would not have heard it any other way.
1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

So it was not for anything that He did. But to finish what needed to be done so that the new covenant could be ushered in.

#16 CTD

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Posted 07 January 2009 - 01:32 AM

To also prove that some from hell will get to Heaven, when Christ died and went into hell. What was one of the things that He did?

Preaching in hell?

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

There is only one message that is considered preaching in the Bible. And that is the message of salvation. Now if Christ were to preach hope (going to heaven) unto the hopeless (Not going to heaven). Then His message would be a deception. A deception is a lie. So when Christ preached the message of salvation in hell, to make it true, some of those in hell have to have a chance to reach heaven. To make it a lie, all in hell have to be bound to be thrown into the Lake of Fire. So can Christ lie? No? Which means what? He preached in hell for a reason.

Example: Let's say you are a preacher. Now why would you preach to a congregation to has no chance what so ever to reach Heaven because they are bound for Hell? Would not it be a waste of time, effort, and words? Now do you think Christ preached to waste His time, effort, and words?

Now, the other end of this would be: Why did Christ go to Hell? 2 things.

1) He went there to get the keys to Death, and Hell.
rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
2) To preach a message to those in Hell who would not have heard it any other way.
1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

So it was not for anything that He did. But to finish what needed to be done so that the new covenant could be ushered in.

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I Pet. 3:
[18] For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
[19] By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
[20] Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Pretty sure verse 20 is incompatible with your interpretation. You're binding things into a short timeframe, and I think a much broader timeframe is involved. We were not brought to God during that time, and I don't think the other events mentioned will compress either. The earth could be the prison spoken of, from what I see.

There are some interesting issues with hell, particularly the gates thereof.

#17 ikester7579

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Posted 07 January 2009 - 02:34 AM

I Pet. 3:
[18] For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
[19] By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
[20] Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Pretty sure verse 20 is incompatible with your interpretation. You're binding things into a short timeframe, and I think a much broader timeframe is involved. We were not brought to God during that time, and I don't think the other events mentioned will compress either. The earth could be the prison spoken of, from what I see.

There are some interesting issues with hell, particularly the gates thereof.

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Sounds like two different time lines to me.

1) Where are there spirits in prison? Heaven, Hell, or Earth?
2) Was there any spirits in prison during Noah's time? When you died in the old testament, did you go to hell and heaven. Or did your soul stay upon the earth?

rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

#18 scott

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Posted 07 January 2009 - 09:01 AM

To also prove that some from hell will get to Heaven, when Christ died and went into hell. What was one of the things that He did?

Preaching in hell?

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

There is only one message that is considered preaching in the Bible. And that is the message of salvation. Now if Christ were to preach hope (going to heaven) unto the hopeless (Not going to heaven). Then His message would be a deception. A deception is a lie. So when Christ preached the message of salvation in hell, to make it true, some of those in hell have to have a chance to reach heaven. To make it a lie, all in hell have to be bound to be thrown into the Lake of Fire. So can Christ lie? No? Which means what? He preached in hell for a reason.

Example: Let's say you are a preacher. Now why would you preach to a congregation to has no chance what so ever to reach Heaven because they are bound for Hell? Would not it be a waste of time, effort, and words? Now do you think Christ preached to waste His time, effort, and words?

Now, the other end of this would be: Why did Christ go to Hell? 2 things.

1) He went there to get the keys to Death, and Hell.
rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
2) To preach a message to those in Hell who would not have heard it any other way.
1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

So it was not for anything that He did. But to finish what needed to be done so that the new covenant could be ushered in.

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Jesus death was the sacrifice that had to be made, to justify people going to heaven. I believe Jesus already had the keys before He came to this earth.

I don't believe Jesus went to hell for what Jesus said in Luke 23: 43

" And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise."

Jesus did not say, oh in 3 days I will be with you in paradise. Paradise most certainly does not = Hell. Though I have seen some try to say there is a paradise in Hell, but if that is true, then men should have no fear or reason to trust God in the first place.

#19 Dave

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Posted 07 January 2009 - 09:12 AM

Gentlemen,

Real quick here because I gotta go.

It appears to me that it would be important to do a quick study of "Hell" and the many names and places that our one word for it represents. There are several "hells" in the Bible.

Again, like confusion about "sheep and goats," and about "body, soul and spirit," confusion about the various "hells" is responsible for much misinterpretation about eternal salvation.

Dave

#20 ikester7579

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Posted 08 January 2009 - 03:08 AM

Gentlemen,

Real quick here because I gotta go.

It appears to me that it would be important to do a quick study of "Hell" and the many names and places that our one word for it represents. There are several "hells" in the Bible.

Again, like confusion about "sheep and goats," and about "body, soul and spirit," confusion about the various "hells" is responsible for much misinterpretation about eternal salvation.

Dave

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There is more than one name for salvation:

Common salvation:
Jud 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

Eternal salvation:
heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Great salvation:
heb 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;

There is more than one way to obtain it, but... it's all still done through Christ:

Personal salvation:
eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

phil 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Hope of salvation:
1thess 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

Salvation through prayer of another:
phil 1:19 For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ,

Inherited salvation:
heb 1:14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

Perfect salvation:
heb 2:10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

How to obtain salvation:
1thess 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

2tim 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.


So eternal salvation exists:
heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation
unto all them that obey him;

Now what makes salvation eternal?
Unto all that obey Him (a condition). It does not say just get saved.

And so does being able to fall from it:
rom 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

Now the words in that verse that show you can fall are:
1) Fall salvation.
2) Stumble.
3) Should fall.

And what is the sin here that makes one fall?
1) Jealousy.

And who is it that can fall through this jealously?
1) Gentiles. Here the Bible is being specific.




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