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#21 Dave

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Posted 08 January 2009 - 08:40 PM

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

There is only one message that is considered preaching in the Bible. And that is the message of salvation.


Not entirely true.

"Preached" in 1Peter 3:19 is the Greek word kēryssō. It means:

1) to be a herald, to officiate as a herald

2) to proclaim after the manner of a herald

3) always with the suggestion of formality, gravity and an authority which must be listened to and obeyed

4) to publish, proclaim openly: something which has been done

5) used of the public proclamation of the gospel and matters pertaining to it, made by John the Baptist, by Jesus, by the apostles and other Christian teachers

In other words, Jesus announced, proclaimed, heralded his victory over death and sin.

This is as opposed to 1Peter 4:6 "For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit."

"Preached" in this case is euaggelizō. It means:

1) to bring good news, to announce glad tidings

2) used in the OT of any kind of good news

3) of the joyful tidings of God's kindness, in particular, of the Messianic blessings

4) in the NT used especially of the glad tidings of the coming kingdom of God, and of the salvation to be obtained in it through Christ, and of what relates to this salvation

5) glad tidings are brought to one, one has glad tidings proclaimed to him

6) to proclaim glad tidings

7) instruct (men) concerning the things that pertain to Christian salvation

Clearly a "preaching" of the Gospel message as we know it. An invitation to salvation.

As a side note: Anyone who would misinterpret this verse as implying the Gospel is being preached to the dead should please note that the Gospel was preached to those who are now dead, but while they were still living. In other words, (aorist tense [one point], indicative mood [actually happened]).

1Peter 3:18-19 is clearly not meant to imply that Jesus descended into hell to preach lost souls out of there and into heaven. He went down there to proclaim his victory and judge them.

I hope this helps.

Dave

#22 ikester7579

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Posted 08 January 2009 - 11:36 PM

Well we are going to have to agree to disagree on this. It is quite clear that you adhere to your doctrine. And I don't see the case you are making as well as you don't see mine.

Google "doctrine of balaam". That is where osas originates from.

#23 Dave

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Posted 09 January 2009 - 07:00 AM

Well we are going to have to agree to disagree on this. It is quite clear that you adhere to your doctrine. And I don't see the case you are making as well as you don't see mine.

Google "doctrine of balaam". That is where osas originates from.

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That's funny.

I did what you suggested, and in the first few Google links didn't see anything specifically referring to OSAS. However, there was a link on the first page to a page describing how closely connected the Doctrine of Balaam is with Contemporary Christian Music.

In "Contemporary Christian Music: The Music of Balaam," at http://www.jesus-is-.../CCM/balaam.htm they have:

"But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication. -Revelation 2:14"

Followed by:

Be Not Unequally Yoked Together with Unbelievers!

What exactly was the "doctrine (or teaching) of Balaam"? It was being UNEQUALLY yoked together with unbelievers. Balaam basically said to the king of Moab, "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em." If you can't beat the Israelites, then yoke with them by using your daughters to seduce their men. God was furious and 24,000 Israelites died as a result of their fornication and idolatry. The Word of God plainly teaches that God wants the believer to SEPARATE from the sinful and unbelieving world...

Followed by a lot of examples of allegedly "Christian" rock bands that are no different than the world's rock culture.

Isn't that something?!

Thanks for the suggestion, and the extra biblical information supporting separation from the world's music.

Dave

#24 ikester7579

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Posted 09 January 2009 - 11:00 AM

I did not know Balaam played music? Can you name the instrument?

I think you are in putting more than what's there.

The doctrine of Balaam is about believing that one can compromise the word of God, and His laws with no fear of consequence. It is explained here: http://www.answersin...9/i3/balaam.asp

Now with eternal security, what is there to fear about what God tells you? Now ask yourself why so many believe that they can be Christians and deny God's creation, and all will be okay? Take away the fear of God, and a rebellious spirit will rise from it.

Osas teaches it's followers that any doctrine of fear is wrong. So categorize all fear doctrines as cults. Let's see what the Bible has to say about that.

acts 13:26 Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent.
2cor 7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
eph 5:21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.
heb 12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and Godly fear:

There are three types of fear:
1) Righteous fear (fear of God so that you do the right thing).
2) Unrighteous fear (which denies the power of God by fearing what God says not to).
3) Fear of nothing (which makes a person believe that he or she can live any old way and still get to heaven).

Number three is the main message of the osas doctrine. which makes it a stumbling block for believers.

Have you ever met a teenager who does not fear his father or his mother unto that he will do the right thing instead of what he or she wants?

Now why do you think the Bible refers to God the Father, and we as children? If the children do not fear the Father, then why would they do what is asked of them?

And that is the reason another fear is preached is osas telling all it's followers to fear any teaching about doing works as a cult. If you work for God, you automatically believe works for salvation, correct? Now how can I work for what I already have?

But then if I prove through scripture that works are required, then the excuse that now I have made salvation conditional. Well that's all provable in the word and I have done so here.

Yes you cannot work for salvation (unsaved to being saved). That is not what no-osas is. Even though those who preach your doctrine will say that it is. No-osas teaches to fear the Lord so that you will do the right thing. And do kingdom works.

And osas teaches any fear is wrong, and any type works are wrong. That's taking the word out of context. Instead of studying works and fear to make sure it applies to all, osas just categorizes it into one group and says: It's cultish to even ponder these things. This instills fear for any osas believer to even investigate this.

So here is my challenge for you if you have no fear of truth. Study the word for works in the Bible and see how many type of works actually exist. Study the word fear in the Bible and see how many types of fear exist and who we are supposed to fear and why.

#25 Dave

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Posted 11 January 2009 - 03:54 PM

The doctrine of Balaam is about believing that one can compromise the word of God, and His laws with no fear of consequence. It is explained here: http://www.answersin...9/i3/balaam.asp

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Isaac,

I must confess I am unable to follow your reasoning at times. I still fail to see the relationship between Balaam and your argument that one can lose his salvation.

But ... anyway ... I'll give a stab at what I think you are referring to.

I believe it's possible that you are making the same incorrect assertion there that you have elsewhere whenever the issue of OSAS comes up -- that OSAS is unscriptural because it gives the believer a license to sin, and God certainly wouldn't condone that. Would He?

However, God's word is very clear that salvation is not a license to sin. Here are just a few of the examples I found in a cursory examination:

"Therefore if any man is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come," (2 Cor. 5:17).

"What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace might increase? May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?" (Rom. 6:1-2).

"and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed." (1 Pet. 2:24).

In other words we are new creatures in Christ. We have died to our sins. And we must live to righteousness, demonstrating the fruit of the Spirit. That sure doesn't sound like a "license to sin" does it?

Isaac, I highly recommend you do an in-depth study of the book of 1John. One of the best sermons on that is done by someone who you recommended to this board a couple of years ago. We have found him to be one of the most solid, biblically grounded preachers out there. I'll always be grateful for you introducing my family to Paul Washer. His website is heartcrymissionary.com. Click on the "Biblical Assurance Series" link under the "Sermons" heading.

Dave

#26 ikester7579

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Posted 11 January 2009 - 05:08 PM

You see, a preacher can be wrong on one or more issues. And because God leaves leeway for our imperfections. e will still be okay as long as the basic message of salvation is intact.

Now that might seem strange, but if God required perfection, we would all fail. That is why this is said:

jas 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

Knowledge is the key. If you don't know that what you preach and believe is wrong, then how are you going to correct it? There is a difference in preaching a known lie than a misunderstanding. There is a difference in believing a lie and a misunderstanding. Knowledge of the truth comes to you in due time. Truth is not always revealed for the specific reason that it can also be tool of destruction to ones faith if their faith is not strong enough in order to recieve it.

Even though Paul Washer is wrong on the subject of osas, he preaches with the fear of God in his heart and soul. And because of this, I have no problem with the rest of his message. Regardless of who you listen to, there are no perfect preachers, and therefore no perfect sermons.

Even though my two favorite preachers are John Hagee, and Joyce Myer. I don't take all of what they say literally. I weed out the chaff. I decsern the truth, and I accept that they are as imperfect as I am. And that being in their positon, I would have just as many people taking pot shots at me.

You cannot please everyone with a sermon that everyone likes. Besides, the only person the sermon is supposed to represent is God. So whether people like or dislike it is not the issue. It's whether it's a good representation of our Lord to the best of our "knowledge and ability". Paul Washer does this. And there are very few like him.

But let's get into why he is the way he is separating the doctrine.

1) Is it because he feels his salvation is secure and stands boldly on the stage?
2) Or is it because he "fears" God in a way that most do not, and or not willing to understand or duplicate so that the can be like him and therefore like Christ?

What Paul Washer has done is that he has combined the fear that no-osas teaches that brings you closer to God, with the osas doctrine that teaches no fear. And what you see that touches you and your family to the core of your soul, is what fear does when applied correctly. And that my friend is what no-osas is all about when it is applied correctly.

Now I'm going to repost this because I believe thatafter that explaination, you will understand it better:

There are three types of fear:
1) Righteous fear (fear of God so that you do the right thing).
2) Unrighteous fear (which denies the power of God by fearing what God says not to).
3) Fear of nothing (which makes a person believe that he or she can live any old way and still get to heaven).

Now which do you think Paul Washer has that makes him preach the way that he does? He has #1 fear which is what no-osas is all about. Rightous fear brings you closer to God. Makes you so close that His word flows thrugh you as well as His passion and love. Paul Washer projects all this because he understands this and like me, would not trade what it does for your faith and walk with Christ for anything in the world.

Rightous fear applied the wrong way, does more harm than good. Now would you deem Paul Washer as a good representation of how we all should be? Of course you do and I would agree. Now apply what makes him different from most, and you got your answer.

Here is a sermon from Paul Washer just in case anyone is wondering:

[godtube]f4fee76ba17594f070dd[/godtube]

#27 Dave

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Posted 11 January 2009 - 06:53 PM

Even though Paul Washer is wrong on the subject of osas, he preaches with the fear of God in his heart and soul.

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I'm curious. You seem to contradict yourself. You say that the OSAS doctrine teaches no fear of God.

1. Do you have scripture to back this up? Specifically? Not some rabbit trail thing?

2. Paul Washer, a godly man firmly grounded in God's word of eternal salvation, has the fear of God in his heart.

So do I, for that matter. So does my wife. So do many others I know who fear God and who also know that God's word says their salvation is eternal.

Where does this "no fear" thing come from.

In Googling it, the only ones who say it are those who evangelize for the non-OSAS position. But, without any concrete biblical references to show where God says it.

Dave

#28 ikester7579

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Posted 12 January 2009 - 02:51 AM

I'm curious. You seem to contradict yourself. You say that the OSAS doctrine teaches no fear of God.


What is there to fear when you are so secure that not even God can knock you out of salvation? Is that true or not? So why fear God?

1. Do you have scripture to back this up? Specifically? Not some rabbit trail thing?


Well if you think everything I have posted here so far are rabbit trails, then no. It's a waste of my rabbit trail time.

And did you find my suggestion to research those words in scripture a rabbit trail as well?

2. Paul Washer, a godly man firmly grounded in God's word of eternal salvation, has the fear of God in his heart.


But if he cannot lose his salvation, was it the doctrine that makes him this way, or his choice? Because if it were his doctrine, then the majority of osas preachers would preach just like him. Because they would all walk in the fear of God. But they don't, so what's up with that?

So do I, for that matter. So does my wife. So do many others I know who fear God and who also know that God's word says their salvation is eternal.

Where does this "no fear" thing come from.


People I have met over the years that use eternal security to live the life they want by choice. Any doctrine that leaves that door open for personal interpretation of using salvation as a ticket to sin, is to much of a temptation. When I was osas, I was tempted to live this way and not worry about it. But something kept telling me that this is wrong. So I researched why, debating it for a few years, and came to a different conclusion.

In Googling it, the only ones who say it are those who evangelize for the non-OSAS position. But, without any concrete biblical references to show where God says it.

Dave

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LOL, now you just got a taste of how it feels when osas believers always say that no-osas is works for salvation.

And God is not going to say it directly because OSAS is not in the Bible. And because my posts are rabbit trails, I don't think scripture will work at this point.

With all due respect... People who love their doctrine more than the word, will become deaf to the word in favor of it. I learned this myself when I had to become neutral to see the truth instead of being bias because my doctrine preacher more or less told me to by instilling undo fear in me so I would never look into it. Which actually made me fear looking for the truth myself. But anger of not really knowing got the best of me, as both sides could make a good argument. But in the end of a debate, everyone was back to where they started. How fustrating to waste so much time in a debate if no one was willing to go the extra mile?

I did, and what I found made me closer to God then I ever was. Now does truth or lie make someone closer to God? I was looking to get closer, but was stuck in one place with osas. Might as well been in quicksand.

So how about making up a list of your problems with no-osas, and maybe I can answer each one to your satisfaction?

#29 Dave

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Posted 12 January 2009 - 08:48 AM

What is there to fear when you are so secure that not even God can knock you out of salvation? Is that true or not? So why fear God?


That is an experiential, subjective answer. You might have felt that way during your OSAS days, but I have seen no evidence in my own life, among my acquaintences, or in testimonies on the Internet that a true, born-again, Bible-believing Christian who knows his salvation is assured feels that way. That's why I was asking for scriptural reference.

The only scripture I found that addresses "license to sin" says that we don't have that.

When I was osas, I was tempted to live this way and not worry about it.


Again, that's your own personal experience. Didn't you realize at the time that there are plenty of verses in the Bible warning you not to give in to that temptation?

So how about making up a list of your problems with no-osas, and maybe I can answer each one to your satisfaction?

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OK. Fair enough. I'm entering my busy time at work right now, so it could take awhile.

Dave

#30 scott

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Posted 12 January 2009 - 11:51 AM

In a way both osas and no-osas have their own set of problems that we must first examine.

Osas: once your are saved you are always saved, you will slip up, and you will sin. That's a fact of life, but no matter how much you do sin, you will still go to heaven because you were bought by the blood of Jesus Christ, and no one can take your soul out of the hand of GOD. Only problem with this, it gives the weak minded the idea that they can sin all they want.

No-Osas: You loose your salvation each and everytime you sin. So you go through the process of repentence each and everytime you sin, and if you die without being able to repent of that last sin you just commited, then you go to hell no questions asked.

I think the problem lies with this, you are going to willfully sin before and after your saved, and absolutely no one in this forum, or this planet can deny that. It is human nature. What if you accidently sin after your saved??? Will you be forgiven??? Yes. What if you willfully sin after your saved??? I'd question my own salvation, but yes you are saved, because the Holy Ghost will help you to determine what you did was wrong, and you will continue to better yourself.

Now how are we saved???? By having faith in Jesus Christ. You cannot be saved, if you do not have faith in Jesus Christ. Faith is key here. Actually it all boils down to doing the Will of God. This is the Will of God, and doing the Will of God is the absolute only way.

We need to let go of our pride and review John 3:16 a couple more times before making rash judgements of everyone. Lets examine what Gods Word ACTUALLY says.

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Lets see, it didn't say that only your second cousins grandma who continually repents, and lives absolutely perfectly only gets to heaven. It said WHOSOEVER.

Now lets continue through verses 17-21

"For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved."

"He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

"And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil."

"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved."

"But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God."

This is how you are saved!!!! Do the truth!!!! Believe in Christ!!! Do as Christ says!! Why?? Because we are having faith to believe what Christ has told us to do. If we are doing this, then most assuredly we are saved.

Now lets examine Mark 3:29

"But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation."

Sounds scary, but what does it mean. Lets look at Matthew 12:31-32.

"Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men."

"And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come."

Blasphemeing the Holy Ghost is like rejecting your very own salvation. The Holy Ghost is who indwells inside you. How can you blaspheme your very own salvation and expect to be saved, or forgiven for that matter???

Who is the Son of man??? Well, the Son of man is Jesus, and Jesus will forgive you if you blaspheme him. Then you might say, then why do I have to fear blaspheming the Holy Ghost???

Because when you repent, believe, and trust in Jesus, you recieve the Holy Ghost. If you reject the Holy Ghost, you cannot recieve salvation, nor forgiveness. If you blashpeme the Holy Ghost, you most likely do not understand salvation or Jesus in the first place.

Is there no hope for your soul if you continue blaspheming the Holy Ghost, and you never recieve the gift of salvation??? Yes, there is no hope, simply because your rejecting your ONLY HOPE.

Will Jesus forgive you??? Absolutely!!! Thats when you recieve the Holy Ghost. Which is your Salvation. Jesus specifically said in the above verse that any word against him will be forgiven.

Now, lets see, what is all the fighting and complaining about OSAS. Whats important about it, and why???

Well, When you recieve the Holy Ghost, your soul basically belongs to Jesus Christ, and no one has the power to take your soul from the almighty hand of God!!!

If you genuinely recieved the Holy Ghost, no amount of sin would affect your salvation. Why? Because the Holy Ghost is now within you, and you won't be sinning as much, or going down the same road as you used to follow. You will be a new person, and if no change is obsereved, and you have no desire to Follow and do the Will of God, and Follow your own will then you are most likely not saved.

Are you saved through faith only??? Yes. You may ask then what about works. Well, one must understand that faith is also a type of work. If it wasn't, then you wouldn't be able to have faith. Is this doing the Will of God??? Yes.

Doing the Will of God. Faith, hope, trust, just doing as the Lord says. Don't fear doing the Will of God. Faith and Works are intertwinned within each other, they are 2 in one. They are the same thing. Faith is a work.

If you do not have faith in Jesus Christ then your are not saved. It is as simple as that, because if you don't, then your not doing the Will of God.

Also, if you actually have the Holy Ghost within you, Why would God knock you out of your own salvation. Why would Jesus not Forgive you. Why???

I also want to add John 10:25-30

"Jesus answered them, I told you and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me."

"But ye believed not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you."

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:"

"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."

"My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand."

"I and my Father are one."

#31 ikester7579

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Posted 12 January 2009 - 10:44 PM

That is an experiential, subjective answer. You might have felt that way during your OSAS days, but I have seen no evidence in my own life, among my acquaintences, or in testimonies on the Internet that a true, born-again, Bible-believing Christian who knows his salvation is assured feels that way. That's why I was asking for scriptural reference.


No, it was preached to me by my osas preacher. At the time I was not a well versed Christian, but I knew it was wrong. But it stuck with me because it was shocking

The only scripture I found that addresses "license to sin" says that we don't have that.


I'm not speaking of what's in the Bible, but what is preached about osas in some churches I have been to. Ask your own preacher about this. Ask him if he has heard of other preachers preaching salvation as a ticket to sin because one cannot lose salvation.

Again, that's your own personal experience. Didn't you realize at the time that there are plenty of verses in the Bible warning you not to give in to that temptation?


At the time I was not very versed in the word and went on what most were telling me. And some were telling me that sin does not matter because you cannot lose salvation.

Example: I have two friends who believe in osas. Because they believe in osas, they basically do no works for the kingdom. And they live in sin. One friend was at a cross roads in whether to believe in osas, or no-osas. At the time he was living in fornication (living with his girlfriend as if they were married). Now as I was convincing him of no-osas, he was going to have the girl move out and not live that way.

But the other osas friend of mine, who was also a friend of his. Got wind of what I was doing. So he went over to the guy's house and convinced him that osas was correct. So what did he do? He still lives with his girlfriend in no fear that his sin will "ever" have consequence.

Now the other friend has basically become a biker type person. Nothing wrong with that, except he goes to bars and drinks. He also goes to bars where you pay for dances. And while doing all this, he will tell you he is a Christian and He cannot lose his salvation. Now as a representation of Christ, is the life that both my friends live a good or bad representation? Bad, right? Now, with their representation of Christ, do they mock God or not?

gal 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

Now why do you think the Bible says this? One cannot mock God if they are not a representation of God (an unsaved sinner).

Now in the three stages mentioned in God's word (cold, lukewarm, hot). Which would you say both my friends fall into?

Now, if I had been able to convince my friend that no-osas was true, and he told his girl friend to move out because he did not want to live in sin anymore. Would that have been better, or is believing in osas and living in fornication better?

Now to list the reasons I no longer think osas is right are these:

1) Had a friend commit suicide because he could not deal with life. And because he thought he could not lose his salvation, he took that last step and did it. If he thought he might go to hell, he would not have.
2) Had another friend who partied and saw nothing wrong with it. He would tell everyone: I'm Christian and cannot lose my salvation. So He partied all the time.
3) I have one friend who lives in fornication and thinks it's okay because he can never lose his salvation.
4) I have another friend who lives the regular secular biker lifestyle. Drinks, goes to bars, pays dancers to dance for him, etc....

Every person in that group believes in osas. Now why do they sin so and fell no need to repent?

What I ponder about all this:

1) If you are right, my friends are okay and can sin all they want. And through their representation, maybe I should join them. And if not, why not if I cannot lose my salvation?

2) If you are wrong, there is a point, once crossed, my friends will lose salvation. And be damned by the doctrine they believed allowed them to live the lifestyles they lived.

So which is it? If you answer one way you condone the sin of my friends. If you answer that you might be wrong, you condemn my friends. Now why do you think your doctrine puts you in such a delima?

Now the way out of this is to state that: my friends were never saved or they would not have lived such a lifestyle, correct? But yet not one osas person has provided me with any verse stating that a Christian cannot live a life of sin after being saved. Only that we need to repent of the sin. Besides that, the condition of the heart determines salvation. If lifestyle determines this, most all of us would not be saved.

The other problem with making the salvation judgment against another is that how do we get such power to determine such things as if we have the power to judge as God and the Son will? Is this gift of knowledge listed in the Bible? Of course not. Why? It's not a gift. It's called a judgmental self righteous spirit. Where one person exalts himself by demeaning others through a judgment ability he or she does not possess.

And I have been told by several osas believers that I'm going to hell because I don't believe as they do. And when I ask them where they get their gift to judge people like that, they can never tell me. I ask for verses, they can never provide them.

OK. Fair enough. I'm entering my busy time at work right now, so it could take awhile.

Dave

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I can already imagine what they will be.

What is your take on what AIG had to say about this? Are they wrong too?

#32 ikester7579

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Posted 13 January 2009 - 02:30 AM

In a way both osas and no-osas have their own set of problems that we must first examine.

Osas: once your are saved you are always saved, you will slip up, and you will sin.  That's a fact of life, but no matter how much you do sin, you will still go to heaven because you were bought by the blood of Jesus Christ, and no one can take your soul out of the hand of GOD.  Only problem with this, it gives the weak minded the idea that they can sin all they want.


Can you provide any verses that state that "hands" are a representation of salvation? You see the verse the osas uses that says we cannot be plucked out of their hands, has no other verses that state that hands are a representation of salvation. If you study hands in the Bible. And look at everywhere there are used spiritually. You will find that hands "only" represent judgment. For if you know of a verse that represents hands (By Christ's hands, we are saved), I'd like to see it.

So basically what this boils down to, is a doctrine made from a misinterpretation of what hands mean.

No-Osas: You loose your salvation each and everytime you sin.  So you go through the process of repentence each and everytime you sin, and if you die without being able to repent of that last sin you just commited, then you go to hell no questions asked. 


From his statement, I can determine that you believe osas, and were taught this about no-osas from a osas preacher like I was. But being a part of the no-osas belief gives me a more detailed information about what the belief really is.

1) No, you cannot lose salvation every time you sin. Only extreme no-osas believers do this, and this is where those scare tactics come from through the doctrine. It's wrong, and I'll tell any no-osas believer who does this that it is.

2) Losing salvation is a process that concerns the condition of your heart towards God, not something that one sin can accomplish. Through your sin, and choice to commit them, if you heart hardens towards God. Then and only then are you in "danger" of losing salvation, Because when God has had enough, like the Bible says, He will spue you from His mouth. Christ is not like a dog that he would return to His vomit.

2 Peter 2:18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.

19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.

Note: Verse 18 singles out two groups of Christians.
1) The clean.
2 Those who live in error.

Error is what a Christian does when he is supposed to know better.

Verse 19 speaks of liberty. Liberty is freedom. Freedom of the flesh is the ability to commit sin with no consequence. And in doing so, becomes servants unto the sin they commit. And word bondage is only used for sin, not salvation.

20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

Note: Here you see that the people being spoke of have over come the world with the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ (being saved). But becoming entangled back in the world it makes their end (latter) worse than their beginning (when they were unsaved). This is because they knew salvation (got saved), and rejected it. From whence there is no excuse.

21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

Note: Here if makes it very clear that you can know the way of righteousness (being saved). And after they have known it, turn away. The thing that makes this clear about it is after you have been saved. Is because the holy commandments do not apply to you until you accept the covenant. So you cannot turn away from what you were never required to do.

22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Note: Now why after all this, is what is done referred to as dog vomit?

Revelation 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.

16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

It is because it is another reference to how one gets removed from the body of Christ. One cannot be spued or vomited from a body in which they are not in. And Christ is no dog that He would return to what he has just spewed out. So to exit in this fashion means there is no return.

I think the problem lies with this, you are going to willfully sin before and after your saved, and absolutely no one in this forum, or this planet can deny that.  It is human nature.  What if you accidently sin after your saved??? Will you be forgiven??? Yes.  What if you willfully sin after your saved???  I'd question my own salvation, but yes you are saved, because the Holy Ghost will help you to determine what you did was wrong, and you will continue to better yourself.


What does the Bible say about wilful sin?

heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Now why does that verse say that there is no more sacrifice for sin? It is because Christ died once, shed His blood once, for us to enter the covenant once. Which means that all sins afterwards are covered by God's mercy and grace. The teachings that the blood continually forgives sin that we commit after being saved, is a doctrine that makes Christ an ongoing sacrifice (a catholic teaching). Which is why they have crosses with Christ still on them, an most other Christian religions don't. When Christ said: It is done (finished), He meant it.


Now how are we saved????  By having faith in Jesus Christ.  You cannot be saved, if you do not have faith in Jesus Christ.  Faith is key here.  Actually it all boils down to doing the Will of God.  This is the Will of God, and doing the Will of God is the absolute only way.


Doing His will is doing the works for the kingdom. You have to understand that because there where not as many words in the english language when the KJV was translated. The other words around it make up the meaning. So when you see works do not save you, that is correct. But when you see works being explained as what we need to do, what you are seeing is "2" types of works.

1) Carnal works. Which mean nothing.
2) Kingdom works. Which is doing God's will.

When you stereotype and categorize words in the Bible into one group (all works are bad), then you blind yourself to what other meanings there maybe about works.

We need to let go of our pride and review John 3:16 a couple more times before making rash judgements of everyone.  Lets examine what Gods Word ACTUALLY says.

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Lets see, it didn't say that only your second cousins grandma who continually repents, and lives absolutely perfectly only gets to heaven.  It said WHOSOEVER.


Believeth is used instead of believe, because believeth is a "ongoing" belief. In other words you have to "continually" have belief. This is also why eternal life is referred to as living waters that flow like a river. Your belief has to be as continual (flow) as the eternal river of everlasting waters.

Also there is a difference between being saved, and having salvation. And here's why:

eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

A promise id something yet to be received. This is because eternal things cannot be given on a non-eternal earth. Of so, how can an eternal being come and die on a cross for us? He came here instead of doing this in Heaven because non-eternity is here. And everything in Heaven is eternal. Which also means that we do not get salvation until we go to the marriage supper of the Lamb. That is when the covenant is fulfilled.

Covenant: A contract or agreement between two parties.

Can contracts or agreements be broken? Yes. Marriage is also a covenant. Which means it is also a contract or agreement. And like we become one flesh with Christ (in the body), God also considers anyone married as one flesh. And that contract can be broken unto divorce.

Physical divorce is done by word of mouth and of the breaking of the covenant.
Just as spiritual divorce is also done by mouth as we will be spued (vomited) from the body in which we were once one flesh.

Now lets continue through verses 17-21

"For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved."


The key word is "might". Also notice it does not say "salvation". Salvation we get in Heaven where eternal things exist. Getting saved is the promise of getting that salvation. All things eternal and good exist in Heaven only. On earth we can only get the promises of these things. And that is why we enter a covenant here. We get salvation there.

Covenants are contracts or agreements that can be broken. Why? Here we have choice and free will. If we fulfill the covenant here, we get the promise of salvation there. Remember, eternal things only exist where eternal things are allowed to exist. Because if getting saved was eternal, it would not be referred to as a covenant, which can be broken.

Example: For something to be eternal, what else does it have to be? Perfect. Are we perfect while we are here on earth? Nope. That is why we are given new bodies because what is corruptible, cannot enter unto a realm where corruption is not allowed.

"He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

"And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil."

"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved."

"But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God."

This is how you are saved!!!!  Do the truth!!!!  Believe in Christ!!! Do as Christ says!!  Why?? Because we are having faith to believe what Christ has told us to do.  If we are doing this, then most assuredly we are saved.


Doing is working. Kingdom works equals a conditional salvation. Conditional salvation equals an agreement. And agreement equals a covenant. A covenant being an agreement like a marriage can be broken like a marriage. Now, is there something wrong with this logic, or shall we change the meanings of words so that a covenant is not a covenant so that it cannot be broken.

Question: Why is not the covenant itself called eternal?

Now lets examine Mark 3:29

"But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation."

Sounds scary, but what does it mean.  Lets look at Matthew 12:31-32.

"Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men."

"And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come."

Blaspheming the Holy Ghost is like rejecting your very own salvation. The Holy Ghost is who indwells inside you.  How can you blaspheme your very own salvation and expect to be saved, or forgiven for that matter???

Who is the Son of man???  Well, the Son of man is Jesus, and Jesus will forgive you if you blaspheme him.  Then you might say, then why do I have to fear blaspheming the Holy Ghost???

Because when you repent, believe, and trust in Jesus, you receive the Holy Ghost.  If you reject the Holy Ghost, you cannot receive salvation, nor forgiveness.  If you blaspheme the Holy Ghost, you most likely do not understand salvation or Jesus in the first place.

Is there no hope for your soul if you continue blaspheming the Holy Ghost, and you never receive the gift of salvation??? Yes, there is no hope, simply because your rejecting your ONLY HOPE.


Can the unsaved be double damned? Can the unsaved be double condemned? When Christ was accused of blaspheming, what exactly did He do to get this accusation started? He claimed to be something that the people said He was not.

Now since the Holy Ghost was left by Christ, and the Holy Spirit was put here by Father God. When one blasphemes the Holy Ghost, exactly what are they doing? They are using the knowledge obtained through the Holy Ghost to claim to be some thing they are not. To say: I am **** Which I won't write how to. Because some will use this to mock God.

Will Jesus forgive you??? Absolutely!!! Thats when you recieve the Holy Ghost.  Which is your Salvation.  Jesus specifically said in the above verse that any word against him will be forgiven.


There is more than one unforgivable sin:

1) Blaspheming the Holy ghost.
2) Receiving all the gifts of God then rejecting them
Hebrew 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

3 And this will we do, if God permit.

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

3) Changing the word of God.
Revelation 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

If your name be in the book of life, and was removed. What were you before your name was removed? Saved or unsaved? Will unsaved people be in the book of life?

Now, lets see, what is all the fighting and complaining about OSAS.  Whats important about it, and why???

Well, When you receive the Holy Ghost, your soul basically belongs to Jesus Christ, and no one has the power to take your soul from the almighty hand of God!!!

If you genuinely received the Holy Ghost, no amount of sin would affect your salvation.  Why? Because the Holy Ghost is now within you, and you won't be sinning as much, or going down the same road as you used to follow. You will be a new person, and if no change is observed, and you have no desire to Follow and do the Will of God, and Follow your own will then you are most likely not saved.

Are you saved through faith only??? Yes.  You may ask then what about works.  Well, one must understand that faith is also a type of work.  If it wasn't, then you wouldn't be able to have faith.  Is this doing the Will of God??? Yes. 

Doing the Will of God.  Faith, hope, trust, just doing as the Lord says.  Don't fear doing the Will of God.  Faith and Works are intertwined within each other, they are 2 in one.  They are the same thing.  Faith is a work.

If you do not have faith in Jesus Christ then your are not saved.  It is as simple as that, because if you don't, then your not doing the Will of God.

Also, if you actually have the Holy Ghost within you, Why would God knock you out of your own salvation.  Why would Jesus not Forgive you.  Why???

I also want to add John 10:25-30

"Jesus answered them, I told you and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me."

"But ye believed not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you."

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:"

"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."

"My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand."

"I and my Father are one."

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You would still have to prove that hands are a direct representation of salvation to make that verse work. I have yet to see "any" osas person do this. If any one can provide a verse that says the hands of Christ save you, or being in the hands means you have been saved, etc... List it. If you cannot. The claim about that verse does not stand. Why? It is not be our interpretation of the word that makes the word true. It is by being able to back up the meaning of the word by other parts of the word that make it true. Hand meaning salvation cannot be backed up.

What do hands mean? Judgment.

#33 Dave

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Posted 13 January 2009 - 09:35 AM

Can you provide any verses that state that "hands" are a representation of salvation?

I have yet to see "any" osas person do this. If any one can provide a verse that says the hands of Christ save you, or being in the hands means you have been saved, etc... List it. If you cannot. The claim about that verse does not stand.

Hand meaning salvation cannot be backed up.

What do hands mean? Judgment.

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Isaac,

I'll let myself briefly get lead down this rabbit trail, then I gotta get back to work.

Hands:

Psalm 20:6 Now know I that the LORD saveth his anointed; he will hear him from his holy heaven with the saving strength of his right hand.

Psalm 17:7 Shew thy marvellous lovingkindness, O thou that savest by thy right hand them which put their trust in thee from those that rise up against them.

Psalm 44:3 For they got not the land in possession by their own sword, neither did their own arm save them: but thy right hand, and thine arm, and the light of thy countenance, because thou hadst a favour unto them.

Psalm 60:5 That thy beloved may be delivered; save with thy right hand, and hear me.

And, you're not entirely telling the truth about nobody in an OSAS/non-OSAS debate ever bringing up these "hand" verses, are you?

Furthermore, about hands:

Luk 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

Did Jesus' spirit go into the hands of the Father for judgment? Hardly. He was received into paradise at that moment.

Here's something interesting. Do a blueletterbible.org search for hands. You'll find that throughout the New Testament when hands are mentioned in relation to men it is usually wicked men doing something violent or sinful. When hands are used in relation to Jesus it is usually in a miraculous healing situation. As you know, many of the miracles are metaphores for salvation.

So, can we assume that the claim about the verse does stand?

Dave

#34 ikester7579

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Posted 14 January 2009 - 04:14 AM

Dave,

You still don't get it. I'll explain it again. If you don't get it this time. I have nothing more to debate with you.


Isaac,

I'll let myself briefly get lead down this rabbit trail, then I gotta get back to work.

Hands:

Psalm 20:6 Now know I that the LORD saveth his anointed; he will hear him from his holy heaven with the saving strength of his right hand.

Psalm 17:7 Shew thy marvellous lovingkindness, O thou that savest by thy right hand them which put their trust in thee from those that rise up against them.

Psalm 44:3 For they got not the land in possession by their own sword, neither did their own arm save them: but thy right hand, and thine arm, and the light of thy countenance, because thou hadst a favour unto them.

Psalm 60:5 That thy beloved may be delivered; save with thy right hand, and hear me.

And, you're not entirely telling the truth about nobody in an OSAS/non-OSAS debate ever bringing up these "hand" verses, are you?


I bolded every place "right hand" is mentioned. Now during the "judgment", what is the difference between the right hand left hand judgment?

Question: Do you want to be sitting on the right hand or left hand of Christ?

So why do you think in each verse that it always refers to the right hand, and never says: Christ "hands" save you? It's because the right hand during judgment is the hand that saves you from eternal damnation. The left hand condemns you to eternal damnation.

Furthermore, about hands:

Luk 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

Did Jesus' spirit go into the hands of the Father for judgment? Hardly. He was received into paradise at that moment.


Why would Christ get judged? Also notice that it says hands and not right hand left hand. Hands is a representation of judgment. Right hand left hand is a representation of what "kind" of judgment.

Now where was Christ sent after He gave up the ghost? Heaven or hell? He went to hell first, right? So going to hell is a type of judgement except Christ was without sin, right? So He was able to leave hell once his mission was done there.

Here's something interesting. Do a blueletterbible.org search for hands. You'll find that throughout the New Testament when hands are mentioned in relation to men it is usually wicked men doing something violent or sinful. When hands are used in relation to Jesus it is usually in a miraculous healing situation. As you know, many of the miracles are metaphores for salvation.

So, can we assume that the claim about the verse does stand?

Dave

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Yep, you do not read what I post for content, so you miss what I have said. So we go back through what was said from the very beginning. So shall we go through it all again?

You see this is why I became neutral on the subject and allowed God and the word to guide me. I got tired of debating this issue to only end up where we just ended up. At the beginning again.

Now if you don't believe that I already explained the right hand left hand judgment, you are welcome to point this out. But I already have, And if we have to go through this whole thing again, I'm not doing it. You believe what you like.

I also notice that you are skipping more than 50% of the content of my posts. You are just picking what you want to address, even though I try to answer everything you post. I guess my posts are a waste of your time? Or are you not addressing certain parts because it would make you face reality?

Now don't get mad about the comments. I tried to stop the debate before it got to this point. But you wanted to continue, so here we are.

If you cannot see my points, and continue to ignore more than half my posts, I don't have anything else to say.

#35 scott

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Posted 14 January 2009 - 08:01 AM

Dave,

You still don't get it. I'll explain it again. If you don't get it this time. I have nothing more to debate with you.
I bolded every place "right hand" is mentioned. Now during the "judgment", what is the difference between the right hand left hand judgment?

Question: Do you want to be sitting on the right hand or left hand of Christ?

So why do you think in each verse that it always refers to the right hand, and never says: Christ "hands" save you? It's because the right hand during judgment is the hand that saves you from eternal damnation. The left hand condemns you to eternal damnation.
Why would Christ get judged? Also notice that it says hands and not right hand left hand. Hands is a representation of judgment. Right hand left hand is a representation of what "kind" of judgment.

Now where was Christ sent after He gave up the ghost? Heaven or hell? He went to hell first, right? So going to hell is a type of judgement except Christ was without sin, right? So He was able to leave hell once his mission was done there.
Yep, you do not read what I post for content, so you miss what I have said. So we go back through what was said from the very beginning. So shall we go through it all again?

You see this is why I became neutral on the subject and allowed God and the word to guide me. I got tired of debating this issue to only end up where we just ended up. At the beginning again.

Now if you don't believe that I already explained the right hand left hand judgment, you are welcome to point this out. But I already have, And if we have to go through this whole thing again, I'm not doing it. You believe what you like.

I also notice that you are skipping more than 50% of the content of my posts. You are just picking what you want to address, even though I try to answer everything you post. I guess my posts are a waste of your time? Or are you not addressing certain parts because it would make you face reality?

Now don't get mad about the comments. I tried to stop the debate before it got to this point. But you wanted to continue, so here we are.

If you cannot see my points, and continue to ignore more than half my posts, I don't have anything else to say.

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Ikester, Jesus did not go to hell, and hands are not always referring to judgement. There is absolutely no evidence to support Jesus going to hell after he died on the cross. If one scripture is provided that makes an assumption incorrect then it is enough. I'll put up the scripture that will take down any more notions that Jesus went to hell.

Luke 23:43 " And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise."

Jesus did not say, In 3 days I'll be with you in paradise, Jesus did not say in 2 days I will be with you in paradise, Jesus said TO DAY.

#36 ikester7579

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Posted 14 January 2009 - 09:01 AM

Ikester, Jesus did not go to hell, and hands are not always referring to judgement.  There is absolutely no evidence to support Jesus going to hell after he died on the cross.  If one scripture is provided that makes an assumption incorrect then it is enough.  I'll put up the scripture that will take down any more notions that Jesus went to hell.

Luke 23:43  " And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise."

Jesus did not say, In 3 days I'll be with you in paradise, Jesus did not say in 2 days I will be with you in paradise, Jesus said TO DAY.

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1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

Where are there spirits in prison? In hell right?

Revelation 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Where do you get the key of hell from? Hell itself right? You see, because Christ was sinless, hell had no power over Him. Christ went there to preach and get the kets to hell and death.

#37 Dave

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Posted 14 January 2009 - 10:47 AM

Now during the "judgment", what is the difference between the right hand left hand judgment?

I also notice that you are skipping more than 50% of the content of my posts.

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Isaac,

With all due respect, the reason why I don't go on and debate with you the thousands of words that you write for each post is because you make some fundamental misinterpretations of scripture, which you then use to build a false doctrine. Even when those misinterpretations are pointed out to you, you continue to rely on them for your logic and reasoning.

For example, I'm beginning to understand that your willful misinterpretation of the sheep and goats judgment from Matthew 25, is key to why your debates with me and others here end up going down rabbit trails.

Since you desire to adhere to your misinterpretation of Matthew 25 despite my counsel and the counsel of others, I'll put it in a way that gets real personal.

If you insist that the sheep and goats judgment is for all believers as well as non-believers that puts you in an awkward position salvation-wise.

Jesus was talking about the sheep and goats judgment in terms of the Last Days, and He clearly intends for the judgment to be against those still living at the end of the tribulation. If you believe that you will be subject to the sheep and goats judgment, that means you intend to be present through the tribulation.

If you are present during the tribulation, that means you were not caught up in the rapture when Christ comes to take out His church to spare them from the wrath.

Can you see the problem with that? Can you see how your misinterpretation of this very important message from Christ cascades to other misinterpretations -- like the right hand of God, which you ultimately use to validate a false doctrine like losing your salvation?

This is something you need to work out for yourself. It's got to come to you through study, meditation and prayer. I recommend you begin by getting some study Bibles, and/or a good Bible commentary on Matthew and settling in your mind once and for all what the sheep and goats judgment really is.

I agree with you that there's no point in debating your points about loss of salvation because I won't go down your rabbit trails when major fundamental issues are left unresolved. However, I do believe it would be instructive to followup on your progress in understanding the Matthew 25 discourse.

Please keep me informed.

Best regards,

Dave

#38 ikester7579

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Posted 14 January 2009 - 02:23 PM

Who are the goats, and can you back that up with scripture?

Either:

1) Unsaved Sinners are goats....
2) Or the saved who fell from salvation are goats...

So you imply that I make my own way and refuse counsel from others. Does counsel make right over the word? So let's test this. Who is it that selects doctrine interpretation of another over the written word of God.

Here are all the verses in the new testament that have the word goat in them:

mt 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

mt 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

heb 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

heb 9:19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,

heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

heb 11:37 They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;


gen 15:9 And he said unto him, Take me an heifer of three years old, and a she goat of three years old, and a ram of three years old, and a turtledove, and a young pigeon.

gen 27:9 Go now to the flock, and fetch me from thence two good kids of the goats; and I will make them savory meat for thy father, such as he loveth:

gen 27:16 And she put the skins of the kids of the goats upon his hands, and upon the smooth of his neck:

gen 30:32 I will pass through all thy flock to day, removing from thence all the speckled and spotted cattle, and all the brown cattle among the sheep, and the spotted and speckled among the goats: and of such shall be my hire.

gen 30:33 So shall my righteousness answer for me in time to come, when it shall come for my hire before thy face: every one that is not speckled and spotted among the goats, and brown among the sheep, that shall be counted stolen with me.

gen 30:35 And he removed that day the he goats that were ring-streaked and spotted, and all the she goats that were speckled and spotted, and every one that had some white in it, and all the brown among the sheep, and gave them into the hand of his sons.

gen 31:38 This twenty years have I been with thee; thy ewes and thy she goats have not cast their young, and the rams of thy flock have I not eaten.

gen 32:14 Two hundred she goats, and twenty he goats, two hundred ewes, and twenty rams,

gen 37:31 And they took Joseph's coat, and killed a kid of the goats, and dipped the coat in the blood;

ex 12:5 Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take it out from the sheep, or from the goats:

ex 25:4 And blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine linen, and goats' hair,

ex 26:7 And thou shalt make curtains of goats' hair to be a covering upon the tabernacle: eleven curtains shalt thou make.

ex 35:6 And blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine linen, and goats' hair,

ex 35:23 And every man, with whom was found blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine linen, and goats' hair, and red skins of rams, and badgers' skins, brought them.

ex 35:26 And all the women whose heart stirred them up in wisdom spun goats' hair.

ex 36:14 And he made curtains of goats' hair for the tent over the tabernacle: eleven curtains he made them.

lev 1:10 And if his offering be of the flocks, namely, of the sheep, or of the goats, for a burnt sacrifice; he shall bring it a male without blemish.

lev 3:12 And if his offering be a goat, then he shall offer it before the LORD.

lev 4:23 Or if his sin, wherein he hath sinned, come to his knowledge; he shall bring his offering, a kid of the goats, a male without blemish:

lev 4:24 And he shall lay his hand upon the head of the goat, and kill it in the place where they kill the burnt offering before the LORD: it is a sin offering.

lev 4:28 Or if his sin, which he hath sinned, come to his knowledge: then he shall bring his offering, a kid of the goats, a female without blemish, for his sin which he hath sinned.

lev 5:6 And he shall bring his trespass offering unto the LORD for his sin which he hath sinned, a female from the flock, a lamb or a kid of the goats, for a sin offering; and the priest shall make an atonement for him concerning his sin.

lev 7:23 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, Ye shall eat no manner of fat, of ox, or of sheep, or of goat.

lev 9:3 And unto the children of Israel thou shalt speak, saying, Take ye a kid of the goats for a sin offering; and a calf and a lamb, both of the first year, without blemish, for a burnt offering;

lev 9:15 And he brought the people's offering, and took the goat, which was the sin offering for the people, and slew it, and offered it for sin, as the first.

lev 10:16 And Moses diligently sought the goat of the sin offering, and, behold, it was burnt: and he was angry with Eleazar and Ithamar, the sons of Aaron which were left alive, saying,

lev 16:5 And he shall take of the congregation of the children of Israel two kids of the goats for a sin offering, and one ram for a burnt offering.

lev 16:7 And he shall take the two goats, and present them before the LORD at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.

lev 16:8 And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the LORD, and the other lot for the scapegoat.

lev 16:9 And Aaron shall bring the goat upon which the LORD's lot fell, and offer him for a sin offering.

lev 16:10 But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness.

lev 16:15 Then shall he kill the goat of the sin offering, that is for the people, and bring his blood within the vail, and do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it upon the mercy seat, and before the mercy seat:

lev 16:18 And he shall go out unto the altar that is before the LORD, and make an atonement for it; and shall take of the blood of the bullock, and of the blood of the goat, and put it upon the horns of the altar round about.

lev 16:20 And when he hath made an end of reconciling the holy place, and the tabernacle of the congregation, and the altar, he shall bring the live goat:

lev 16:21 And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness:

lev 16:22 And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.

lev 16:26 And he that let go the goat for the scapegoat shall wash his clothes, and bathe his flesh in water, and afterward come into the camp.

lev 16:27 And the bullock for the sin offering, and the goat for the sin offering, whose blood was brought in to make atonement in the holy place, shall one carry forth without the camp; and they shall burn in the fire their skins, and their flesh, and their dung.

lev 17:3 What man soever there be of the house of Israel, that killeth an ox, or lamb, or goat, in the camp, or that killeth it out of the camp,

lev 22:19 Ye shall offer at your own will a male without blemish, of the beeves, of the sheep, or of the goats.

lev 22:27 When a bullock, or a sheep, or a goat, is brought forth, then it shall be seven days under the dam; and from the eighth day and thenceforth it shall be accepted for an offering made by fire unto the LORD.

lev 23:19 Then ye shall sacrifice one kid of the goats for a sin offering, and two lambs of the first year for a sacrifice of peace offerings.

num 7:16 One kid of the goats for a sin offering:

num 7:17 And for a sacrifice of peace offerings, two oxen, five rams, five he goats, five lambs of the first year: this was the offering of Nahshon the son of Amminadab.

num 7:22 One kid of the goats for a sin offering:

num 7:23 And for a sacrifice of peace offerings, two oxen, five rams, five he goats, five lambs of the first year: this was the offering of Nethaneel the son of Zuar.

num 7:28 One kid of the goats for a sin offering:

num 7:29 And for a sacrifice of peace offerings, two oxen, five rams, five he goats, five lambs of the first year: this was the offering of Eliab the son of Helon.

num 7:34 One kid of the goats for a sin offering:

num 7:35 And for a sacrifice of peace offerings, two oxen, five rams, five he goats, five lambs of the first year: this was the offering of Elizur the son of Shedeur.

num 7:40 One kid of the goats for a sin offering:

num 7:41 And for a sacrifice of peace offerings, two oxen, five rams, five he goats, five lambs of the first year: this was the offering of Shelumiel the son of Zurishaddai.

num 7:46 One kid of the goats for a sin offering:

num 7:47 And for a sacrifice of peace offerings, two oxen, five rams, five he goats, five lambs of the first year: this was the offering of Eliasaph the son of Deuel.

num 7:52 One kid of the goats for a sin offering:

num 7:53 And for a sacrifice of peace offerings, two oxen, five rams, five he goats, five lambs of the first year: this was the offering of Elishama the son of Ammihud.

num 7:58 One kid of the goats for a sin offering:

num 7:59 And for a sacrifice of peace offerings, two oxen, five rams, five he goats, five lambs of the first year: this was the offering of Gamaliel the son of Pedahzur.

num 7:64 One kid of the goats for a sin offering:

num 7:65 And for a sacrifice of peace offerings, two oxen, five rams, five he goats, five lambs of the first year: this was the offering of Abidan the son of Gideoni.

num 7:70 One kid of the goats for a sin offering:

num 7:71 And for a sacrifice of peace offerings, two oxen, five rams, five he goats, five lambs of the first year: this was the offering of Ahiezer the son of Ammishaddai.

num 7:76 One kid of the goats for a sin offering:

num 7:77 And for a sacrifice of peace offerings, two oxen, five rams, five he goats, five lambs of the first year: this was the offering of Pagiel the son of Ocran.

num 7:82 One kid of the goats for a sin offering:

num 7:83 And for a sacrifice of peace offerings, two oxen, five rams, five he goats, five lambs of the first year: this was the offering of Ahira the son of Enan.

num 7:87 All the oxen for the burnt offering were twelve bullocks, the rams twelve, the lambs of the first year twelve, with their meat offering: and the kids of the goats for sin offering twelve.

num 7:88 And all the oxen for the sacrifice of the peace offerings were twenty and four bullocks, the rams sixty, the he goats sixty, the lambs of the first year sixty. This was the dedication of the altar, after that it was anointed.

num 15:24 Then it shall be, if ought be committed by ignorance without the knowledge of the congregation, that all the congregation shall offer one young bullock for a burnt offering, for a sweet savor unto the LORD, with his meat offering, and his drink offering, according to the manner, and one kid of the goats for a sin offering.

num 15:27 And if any soul sin through ignorance, then he shall bring a she goat of the first year for a sin offering.

num 18:17 But the firstling of a cow, or the firstling of a sheep, or the firstling of a goat, thou shalt not redeem; they are holy: thou shalt sprinkle their blood upon the altar, and shalt burn their fat for an offering made by fire, for a sweet savor unto the LORD.

num 28:15 And one kid of the goats for a sin offering unto the LORD shall be offered, beside the continual burnt offering, and his drink offering.

num 28:22 And one goat for a sin offering, to make an atonement for you.

num 28:30 And one kid of the goats, to make an atonement for you.

num 29:5 And one kid of the goats for a sin offering, to make an atonement for you:

num 29:11 One kid of the goats for a sin offering; beside the sin offering of atonement, and the continual burnt offering, and the meat offering of it, and their drink offerings.

num 29:16 And one kid of the goats for a sin offering; beside the continual burnt offering, his meat offering, and his drink offering.

num 29:19 And one kid of the goats for a sin offering; beside the continual burnt offering, and the meat offering thereof, and their drink offerings.

num 29:22 And one goat for a sin offering; beside the continual burnt offering, and his meat offering, and his drink offering.

num 29:25 And one kid of the goats for a sin offering; beside the continual burnt offering, his meat offering, and his drink offering.

num 29:28 And one goat for a sin offering; beside the continual burnt offering, and his meat offering, and his drink offering.

num 29:31 And one goat for a sin offering; beside the continual burnt offering, his meat offering, and his drink offering.

num 29:34 And one goat for a sin offering; beside the continual burnt offering, his meat offering, and his drink offering.

num 29:38 And one goat for a sin offering; beside the continual burnt offering, and his meat offering, and his drink offering.

num 31:20 And purify all your raiment, and all that is made of skins, and all work of goats' hair, and all things made of wood.

deut 14:4 These are the beasts which ye shall eat: the ox, the sheep, and the goat,

deut 14:5 The hart, and the roebuck, and the fallow deer, and the wild goat, and the pygarg, and the wild ox, and the chamois.

deut 32:14 Butter of kine, and milk of sheep, with fat of lambs, and rams of the breed of Bashan, and goats, with the fat of kidneys of wheat; and thou didst drink the pure blood of the grape.

1sam 19:13 And Michal took an image, and laid it in the bed, and put a pillow of goats' hair for his bolster, and covered it with a cloth.

1sam 19:16 And when the messengers were come in, behold, there was an image in the bed, with a pillow of goats' hair for his bolster.

1sam 24:2 Then Saul took three thousand chosen men out of all Israel, and went to seek David and his men upon the rocks of the wild goats.

1sam 25:2 And there was a man in Maon, whose possessions were in Carmel; and the man was very great, and he had three thousand sheep, and a thousand goats: and he was shearing his sheep in Carmel.

2chron 17:11 Also some of the Philistines brought Jehoshaphat presents, and tribute silver; and the Arabians brought him flocks, seven thousand and seven hundred rams, and seven thousand and seven hundred he goats.

2chron 29:21 And they brought seven bullocks, and seven rams, and seven lambs, and seven he goats, for a sin offering for the kingdom, and for the sanctuary, and for Judah. And he commanded the priests the sons of Aaron to offer them on the altar of the LORD.

2chron 29:23 And they brought forth the he goats for the sin offering before the king and the congregation; and they laid their hands upon them:

ezra 6:17 And offered at the dedication of this house of God an hundred bullocks, two hundred rams, four hundred lambs; and for a sin offering for all Israel, twelve he goats, according to the number of the tribes of Israel.

ezra 8:35 Also the children of those that had been carried away, which were come out of the captivity, offered burnt offerings unto the God of Israel, twelve bullocks for all Israel, ninety and six rams, seventy and seven lambs, twelve he goats for a sin offering: all this was a burnt offering unto the LORD.

job 39:1 Knowest thou the time when the wild goats of the rock bring forth? or canst thou mark when the hinds do calve?

ps 50:9 I will take no bullock out of thy house, nor he goats out of thy folds.

ps 50:13 Will I eat the flesh of bulls, or drink the blood of goats?

ps 66:15 I will offer unto thee burnt sacrifices of fatlings, with the incense of rams; I will offer bullocks with goats. Selah.

ps 104:18 The high hills are a refuge for the wild goats; and the rocks for the conies.

prov 27:26 The lambs are for thy clothing, and the goats are the price of the field.

prov 27:27 And thou shalt have goats' milk enough for thy food, for the food of thy household, and for the maintenance for thy maidens.

prov 30:31 A greyhound; an he goat also; and a king, against whom there is no rising up.

song 4:1 Behold, thou art fair, my love; behold, thou art fair; thou hast doves' eyes within thy locks: thy hair is as a flock of goats, that appear from mount Gilead.

song 6:5 Turn away thine eyes from me, for they have overcome me: thy hair is as a flock of goats that appear from Gilead.

is 1:11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.

is 34:6 The sword of the LORD is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the LORD hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea.

jer 50:8 Remove out of the midst of Babylon, and go forth out of the land of the Chaldeans, and be as the he goats before the flocks.

jer 51:40 I will bring them down like lambs to the slaughter, like rams with he goats.

ezek 27:21 Arabia, and all the princes of Kedar, they occupied with thee in lambs, and rams, and goats: in these were they thy merchants.

ezek 34:17 And as for you, O my flock, thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I judge between cattle and cattle, between the rams and the he goats.

ezek 39:18 Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan.

ezek 43:22 And on the second day thou shalt offer a kid of the goats without blemish for a sin offering; and they shall cleanse the altar, as they did cleanse it with the bullock.

ezek 43:25 Seven days shalt thou prepare every day a goat for a sin offering: they shall also prepare a young bullock, and a ram out of the flock, without blemish.

ezek 45:23 And seven days of the feast he shall prepare a burnt offering to the LORD, seven bullocks and seven rams without blemish daily the seven days; and a kid of the goats daily for a sin offering.

dan 8:5 And as I was considering, behold, an he goat came from the west on the face of the whole earth, and touched not the ground: and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes.

dan 8:8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.

dan 8:21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

zech 10:3 Mine anger was kindled against the shepherds, and I punished the goats: for the LORD of hosts hath visited his flock the house of Judah, and hath made them as his goodly horse in the battle.


Now, can you select the verse that says: Unsaved sinners are goats? Not one now is it?

So let's ponder my resoning which can be confirmed.

1) In the OT the goats were for sin atonement.
2) Sin atonements are always put into a fire as an offering unto the Lord.
3) In Christ's judgment, there are two sets of people being judged. The sheep and the goats.
4) When the goats are judged, they are thrown upon the fire of hell, just like they threw goats on the fire in the OT.

So, goats + fire = sin atonment. So when the ones in front of Christ were given the name goats, why were they called goats? Because goats burning upon a fire becomes sin atonemnt for "Father God" who is at their next judgment, You see, at Fahter God's judgement, everyone from hell will be pulled up which will also mean the goats will stand once again before judgement. And because those goats were burned upon the fire of hell, God will know from which covenant they came. Understand?

This is why it is said:

Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


Whosoever = a chance that someone will. If not, then God lied. Why? Whosoever means a chance, so to give a chance when there is none is a deception. Now is God decieving people at the Great White Throne? No.

So ask yourself this question: Who is it out of all the people standing in front of the Great White Throne has a chance for Heaven and not eternal damnation:
1) Dead both small and great (those left behind from the OT covenant when Christ rose and "some" of the saints rose also)..
2) Dead from the sea (Noah's flood).
3) Dead in Hell (unsaved sinners).
4) Goats from Christ Throne judgment.

Only group 4 have a chance.

So where was it that I went away from the word?
And where is it that this verse exists that proves goats are unsaved sinners?

Now, you might ask where does it say the goats get judged here? It don't for these reasons.

1) They were already judged at Christ's throne.
2) Because they were goats being burned upon the fires of hell, they were being saved by that fire.

1cor 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire

Then you might say: But that was the works judgment, not Christ Throne judgement. It's one in the same and here's why.

Those standing in front of christ's throne:
1) Were they judged for being saved or having salvation? No.
2) Were they judged for their faith? No.
3) Were they judged for their belief? No.

So what were the things that allowed one side to be sheep, and made the other side goats? Kingdom works.

1) I was thirsty, ye gave me no drink.
2) I was hungry, ye gave me no meat.
3) I was a stranger, ye did not take me in.
4) I was naked, ye gave me no cloths.
5) I was sick and in prison, and ye visit me not.

Kingdon works, or salvation issues? So after the kingdom works judgment, the ones who fail it by therir works burning up. Get saved by the fire (hell fire). But before they can be saved by fire, they have to become an offering or sin atonement. Which is the reason they were called goats.

Goats + fire = sin atonement.

Goats do not = unsaved sinner. And there are no verses to confirm this.

So you have a choice here. You can stick with your doctrine over the Word. And keep claiming that Goats = unsaved sinners with "no" verses to back this up. Or you can ponder what I have told you, and study it in the word to be sure.

To reject it when I have clearly shown it to you using the word, means you don't want the truth. And I cannot help you there. It's your choice.

#39 Dave

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Posted 14 January 2009 - 06:49 PM

Isaac,

The thread of your confusion about end times is finally unraveling. I'm beginning to understand your reasoning.

You're not only confused about the sheep and goats judgment, but you apparently do not understand what the Judgment Seat of Christ and the Great White Throne Judgment are all about. And, I also detect that you might be thinking there are second chances for those who die outside of the saving grace of Christ.

Here are the pertinent verses for the sheep and goats judgment, with my bolds for emphasis:

Mat 25:32 - And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats:

Mat 25:33 - And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

Mat 25:34 - Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Mat 25:35 - For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

Mat 25:36 - Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

Mat 25:37 - Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed [thee]? or thirsty, and gave [thee] drink?

Mat 25:38 - When saw we thee a stranger, and took [thee] in? or naked, and clothed [thee]?

Mat 25:39 - Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

Mat 25:40 - And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done [it] unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done [it] unto me.

Mat 25:41 - Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Mat 25:42 - For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

Mat 25:43 - I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

Mat 25:44 - Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

Mat 25:45  - Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did [it] not to one of the least of these, ye did [it] not to me.

Mat 25:46  - And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


OK. Here we go.

This final segment of Christ's Olivet Discourse is not a parable, as some think. It is a prophecy of an actual judgment that will take place when Christ assumes his rightful place on the Throne of David at the end of the Tribulation and the beginning of the Millennium. See Mat 24:3 - "And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what [shall be] the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"

End of the world. After the rapture. All those who have their faith in Christ are gone to their own judgment, called the Judgment Seat of Christ, where they will receive their rewards, or not -- the testing by fire that you continually misrepresent. But, they are the righteous, the saved, nevertheless.

Nobody left on earth but unbelievers. They go into the tribulation ... the bowl judgments, the trumpet judgments, the antichrist, the whole nine yards. Billions die, both unbelievers who follow the antichrist, and those who become believers during the tribulation. There is horrible persecution of both believers and Jews by the unbelievers and the antichrist's government.

At the end, Christ comes in all His power and glory on His white horse to kill with the sword of his mouth all those amassed against Him in the final battle, called Amegeddon. Then, just before the Millennium begins he calls together all the survivors, both remaining unbelievers, the goats (who are totally unregenrate at this point, and who have the mark of the beast on them); and those who have professed their faith in Christ, the sheep (who, despite massive persecution, refused to take the mark).

In 25:34 Jesus says about the sheep, "Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you." Note that He's not ushering them into Heaven. He is welcoming them into His Millennial kingdom. These are the ones who will procreate and populate the world for the next 1,000 years. Note, they are also called the righteous.

Then, in 25:41 Jesus says about the goats, "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:" And, "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment"

Please note the "everlasting punishment." There is no trial by fire. No second chance. They are "cursed" going into the judgment, just like those who die during the Church age who are "cursed" going to their Great White Throne judgment.

For them, it isn't really like a trial, or a judgment. They've already been judged by refusing to follow Jesus. Think of it more as a sentencing for a guilty verdict.

At this point I need to ask you some questions:

1.) Do you believe the Olivet Discourse is Jesus telling of what will happen in the Last Days?

2.) Do you understand that believers are raptured out prior to the tribulation?

3.) Do you understand that that means only unbelievers are left on earth at the beginning of the tribulation?

4.) Do you agree that there will be a great soul harvest during the tribulation, so there will be believers again by the time Jesus makes his great Second Coming appearance to sit on the Throne of David?

5.) Do you believe Jesus when He says that the righteous, His sheep, will inherit the Kingdom?

6.) Do you believe Jesus when He says that the cursed, the goats, will be cast into the everlasting fire for everlasting punishment?

7.) Do you agree that there are at least three separate judgments -- Rewards judgment for believers at the Judgment Seat of Christ, Great White Throne Judgment for unbelievers who died during the Church age, and the sheep and goats judgment which takes place at the threshhold of the millennium?

8.) Do you understand that the "refining by fire" verses apply to believers who are judged for their works in order to determine their rewards in Heaven?

I'm thinking that if you can answer these questions we can begin to unwind this thread of confusion that permeates your posts here.

Dave

#40 ikester7579

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  • Christian
  • Young Earth Creationist
  • I'm non-denominational

Posted 14 January 2009 - 10:19 PM

I see, we skip all the content in my posts now. O well, I shall do the same.

My time wasted, now your time wasted. If you want to continue this debate, I will from now on skip as much content as you do. And only address the things I want to just like you.

That way, like you, my doctrine can always look right Because I will always ignore it's problems.

Note: Every osas believer does this. They cannot address the problems through scripture. So they ignore them in hopes that they go away.

One more thing. Do you deem the Calvinist doctrine a cult, or not right? One of the main pillar foundations that makes the rest of it work is osas. No-osas would totally destroy it. Now can truth support a foundation of a cult? Can God's "true" doctrine work in a corrupted one?

In fact from where stand you only have to take one step to believe in Calvinism from osas. Just add predestination and you are already there. Now why do you supposed that is?




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