In a way both osas and no-osas have their own set of problems that we must first examine.
Osas: once your are saved you are always saved, you will slip up, and you will sin.Ã‚Â That's a fact of life, but no matter how much you do sin, you will still go to heaven because you were bought by the blood of Jesus Christ, and no one can take your soul out of the hand of GOD.Ã‚Â Only problem with this, it gives the weak minded the idea that they can sin all they want.
Can you provide any verses that state that "hands" are a representation of salvation? You see the verse the osas uses that says we cannot be plucked out of their hands, has no other verses that state that hands are a representation of salvation. If you study hands in the Bible. And look at everywhere there are used spiritually. You will find that hands "only" represent judgment. For if you know of a verse that represents hands (By Christ's hands, we are saved), I'd like to see it.
So basically what this boils down to, is a doctrine made from a misinterpretation of what hands mean.
No-Osas: You loose your salvation each and everytime you sin.Ã‚Â So you go through the process of repentence each and everytime you sin, and if you die without being able to repent of that last sin you just commited, then you go to hell no questions asked.Ã‚Â
From his statement, I can determine that you believe osas, and were taught this about no-osas from a osas preacher like I was. But being a part of the no-osas belief gives me a more detailed information about what the belief really is.
1) No, you cannot lose salvation every time you sin. Only extreme no-osas believers do this, and this is where those scare tactics come from through the doctrine. It's wrong, and I'll tell any no-osas believer who does this that it is.
2) Losing salvation is a process that concerns the condition of your heart towards God, not something that one sin can accomplish. Through your sin, and choice to commit them, if you heart hardens towards God. Then and only then are you in "danger" of losing salvation, Because when God has had enough, like the Bible says, He will spue you from His mouth. Christ is not like a dog that he would return to His vomit.
2 Peter 2:18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
19 While they promise them liberty,
they themselves are the servants of corruption:
for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.Note:
Verse 18 singles out two groups of Christians.
1) The clean.
2 Those who live in error.
Error is what a Christian does when he is supposed to know better.
Verse 19 speaks of liberty. Liberty is freedom. Freedom of the flesh is the ability to commit sin with no consequence. And in doing so, becomes servants unto the sin they commit. And word bondage is only used for sin, not salvation.
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.Note:
Here you see that the people being spoke of have over come the world with the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ (being saved). But becoming entangled back in the world it makes their end (latter) worse than their beginning (when they were unsaved). This is because they knew salvation (got saved), and rejected it. From whence there is no excuse.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness
, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.Note:
Here if makes it very clear that you can know the way of righteousness (being saved). And after they have known it, turn away. The thing that makes this clear about it is after you have been saved. Is because the holy commandments do not apply to you until you accept the covenant. So you cannot turn away from what you were never required to do.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.Note:
Now why after all this, is what is done referred to as dog vomit?
Revelation 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
It is because it is another reference to how one gets removed from the body of Christ. One cannot be spued or vomited from a body in which they are not in. And Christ is no dog that He would return to what he has just spewed out. So to exit in this fashion means there is no return.
I think the problem lies with this, you are going to willfully sin before and after your saved, and absolutely no one in this forum, or this planet can deny that.Ã‚Â It is human nature.Ã‚Â What if you accidently sin after your saved??? Will you be forgiven??? Yes.Ã‚Â What if you willfully sin after your saved???Ã‚Â I'd question my own salvation, but yes you are saved, because the Holy Ghost will help you to determine what you did was wrong, and you will continue to better yourself.
What does the Bible say about wilful sin?
heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Now why does that verse say that there is no more sacrifice for sin? It is because Christ died once, shed His blood once, for us to enter the covenant once. Which means that all sins afterwards are covered by God's mercy and grace. The teachings that the blood continually forgives sin that we commit after being saved, is a doctrine that makes Christ an ongoing sacrifice (a catholic teaching). Which is why they have crosses with Christ still on them, an most other Christian religions don't. When Christ said: It is done (finished), He meant it.
Now how are we saved????Ã‚Â By having faith in Jesus Christ.Ã‚Â You cannot be saved, if you do not have faith in Jesus Christ.Ã‚Â Faith is key here.Ã‚Â Actually it all boils down to doing the Will of God.Ã‚Â This is the Will of God, and doing the Will of God is the absolute only way.
Doing His will is doing the works for the kingdom. You have to understand that because there where not as many words in the english language when the KJV was translated. The other words around it make up the meaning. So when you see works do not save you, that is correct. But when you see works being explained as what we need to do, what you are seeing is "2" types of works.
1) Carnal works. Which mean nothing.
2) Kingdom works. Which is doing God's will.
When you stereotype and categorize words in the Bible into one group (all works are bad), then you blind yourself to what other meanings there maybe about works.
We need to let go of our pride and review John 3:16 a couple more times before making rash judgements of everyone.Ã‚Â Lets examine what Gods Word ACTUALLY says.
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
Lets see, it didn't say that only your second cousins grandma who continually repents, and lives absolutely perfectly only gets to heaven.Ã‚Â It said WHOSOEVER.
Believeth is used instead of believe, because believeth is a "ongoing" belief. In other words you have to "continually" have belief. This is also why eternal life is referred to as living waters that flow like a river. Your belief has to be as continual (flow) as the eternal river of everlasting waters.
Also there is a difference between being saved, and having salvation. And here's why:
eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise
A promise id something yet to be received. This is because eternal things cannot be given on a non-eternal earth. Of so, how can an eternal being come and die on a cross for us? He came here instead of doing this in Heaven because non-eternity is here. And everything in Heaven is eternal. Which also means that we do not get salvation until we go to the marriage supper of the Lamb. That is when the covenant is fulfilled.
Covenant: A contract or agreement between two parties.
Can contracts or agreements be broken? Yes. Marriage is also a covenant. Which means it is also a contract or agreement. And like we become one flesh with Christ (in the body), God also considers anyone married as one flesh. And that contract can be broken unto divorce.
Physical divorce is done by word of mouth and of the breaking of the covenant.
Just as spiritual divorce is also done by mouth as we will be spued (vomited) from the body in which we were once one flesh.
Now lets continue through verses 17-21
"For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved."
The key word is "might". Also notice it does not say "salvation". Salvation we get in Heaven where eternal things exist. Getting saved is the promise of getting that salvation. All things eternal and good exist in Heaven only. On earth we can only get the promises of these things. And that is why we enter a covenant here. We get salvation there.
Covenants are contracts or agreements that can be broken. Why? Here we have choice and free will. If we fulfill the covenant here, we get the promise of salvation there. Remember, eternal things only exist where eternal things are allowed to exist. Because if getting saved was eternal, it would not be referred to as a covenant, which can be broken.
Example: For something to be eternal, what else does it have to be? Perfect. Are we perfect while we are here on earth? Nope. That is why we are given new bodies because what is corruptible, cannot enter unto a realm where corruption is not allowed.
"He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."
"And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil."
"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved."
"But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God."
This is how you are saved!!!!Ã‚Â Do the truth!!!!Ã‚Â Believe in Christ!!! Do as Christ says!!Ã‚Â Why?? Because we are having faith to believe what Christ has told us to do.Ã‚Â If we are doing this, then most assuredly we are saved.
Doing is working. Kingdom works equals a conditional salvation. Conditional salvation equals an agreement. And agreement equals a covenant. A covenant being an agreement like a marriage can be broken like a marriage. Now, is there something wrong with this logic, or shall we change the meanings of words so that a covenant is not a covenant so that it cannot be broken.
Question: Why is not the covenant itself called eternal?
Now lets examine Mark 3:29
"But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation."
Sounds scary, but what does it mean.Ã‚Â Lets look at Matthew 12:31-32.
"Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men."
"And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come."
Blaspheming the Holy Ghost is like rejecting your very own salvation. The Holy Ghost is who indwells inside you.Ã‚Â How can you blaspheme your very own salvation and expect to be saved, or forgiven for that matter???
Who is the Son of man???Ã‚Â Well, the Son of man is Jesus, and Jesus will forgive you if you blaspheme him.Ã‚Â Then you might say, then why do I have to fear blaspheming the Holy Ghost???
Because when you repent, believe, and trust in Jesus, you receive the Holy Ghost.Ã‚Â If you reject the Holy Ghost, you cannot receive salvation, nor forgiveness.Ã‚Â If you blaspheme the Holy Ghost, you most likely do not understand salvation or Jesus in the first place.
Is there no hope for your soul if you continue blaspheming the Holy Ghost, and you never receive the gift of salvation??? Yes, there is no hope, simply because your rejecting your ONLY HOPE.
Can the unsaved be double damned? Can the unsaved be double condemned? When Christ was accused of blaspheming, what exactly did He do to get this accusation started? He claimed to be something that the people said He was not.
Now since the Holy Ghost was left by Christ, and the Holy Spirit was put here by Father God. When one blasphemes the Holy Ghost, exactly what are they doing? They are using the knowledge obtained through the Holy Ghost to claim to be some thing they are not. To say: I am **** Which I won't write how to. Because some will use this to mock God.
Will Jesus forgive you??? Absolutely!!! Thats when you recieve the Holy Ghost.Ã‚Â Which is your Salvation.Ã‚Â Jesus specifically said in the above verse that any word against him will be forgiven.
There is more than one unforgivable sin:
1) Blaspheming the Holy ghost.
2) Receiving all the gifts of God then rejecting them
Hebrew 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3 And this will we do, if God permit.
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
3) Changing the word of God.
Revelation 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
If your name be in the book of life, and was removed. What were you before your name was removed? Saved or unsaved? Will unsaved people be in the book of life?
Now, lets see, what is all the fighting and complaining about OSAS.Ã‚Â Whats important about it, and why???
Well, When you receive the Holy Ghost, your soul basically belongs to Jesus Christ, and no one has the power to take your soul from the almighty hand of God!!!
If you genuinely received the Holy Ghost, no amount of sin would affect your salvation.Ã‚Â Why? Because the Holy Ghost is now within you, and you won't be sinning as much, or going down the same road as you used to follow. You will be a new person, and if no change is observed, and you have no desire to Follow and do the Will of God, and Follow your own will then you are most likely not saved.
Are you saved through faith only??? Yes.Ã‚Â You may ask then what about works.Ã‚Â Well, one must understand that faith is also a type of work.Ã‚Â If it wasn't, then you wouldn't be able to have faith.Ã‚Â Is this doing the Will of God??? Yes.Ã‚Â
Doing the Will of God.Ã‚Â Faith, hope, trust, just doing as the Lord says.Ã‚Â Don't fear doing the Will of God.Ã‚Â Faith and Works are intertwined within each other, they are 2 in one.Ã‚Â They are the same thing.Ã‚Â Faith is a work.
If you do not have faith in Jesus Christ then your are not saved.Ã‚Â It is as simple as that, because if you don't, then your not doing the Will of God.
Also, if you actually have the Holy Ghost within you, Why would God knock you out of your own salvation.Ã‚Â Why would Jesus not Forgive you.Ã‚Â Why???
I also want to add John 10:25-30
"Jesus answered them, I told you and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me."
"But ye believed not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you."
"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:"
"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."
"My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand."
"I and my Father are one."
You would still have to prove that hands are a direct representation of salvation to make that verse work. I have yet to see "any" osas person do this. If any one can provide a verse that says the hands of Christ save you, or being in the hands means you have been saved, etc... List it. If you cannot. The claim about that verse does not stand. Why? It is not be our interpretation of the word that makes the word true. It is by being able to back up the meaning of the word by other parts of the word that make it true. Hand meaning salvation cannot be backed up.
What do hands mean? Judgment.