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#1 de_skudd

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Posted 06 January 2009 - 06:09 PM

- There are 308,000 letters in the Torah.

- The Hebrew word for Torah is four letters in length.

- When you scan through the Hebrew text to the first letter in the Hebrew word for Torah, then count 49 letters, you’ll find the second letter on Torah, count 49 more letters and find the third letter (and so on) till you’ll spell out the word TORAH (in Hebrew). As you count through the entire book of Genesis, every 49 letters, it repeats the word TORAH over and over again!

- You can repeat this process through the book of Exodus with the exact same result!

- But, when you come to the book of Leviticus, this process doesn’t work… Although, if you count seven letters from the beginning (of the book of Leviticus), and every seven letters thereafter, the Tetragrammaton (or YHWH the name of God) appears over and over again through that book.

- When you get to the book of Numbers and continually count the 49 letters, you get the TORAH spelled backwards!

- And the same in the book of Deuteronomy!

- What does this all mean? When you stand back and soak it all in, you see the word TORAH sequentially, every 50th letter in the first two and last two books of the Torah. And the book of Leviticus repeats the name of God over and over again. The Torah points from both directions to God!

#2 CTD

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Posted 06 January 2009 - 08:40 PM

Oh that's just a parlour trick. Anyone can do that with Moby Dick or Huckleberry Finn.

But seriously, that is profoundly beautiful. Thanks for sharing it.

#3 de_skudd

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Posted 07 January 2009 - 06:02 AM

Oh that's just a parlour trick. Anyone can do that with Moby Dick or Huckleberry Finn.

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:(

#4 de_skudd

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Posted 08 February 2009 - 07:04 AM

What is even more amazing, is that it would take a bank of supercomputers to ATTEMPT to do the came thing (but would they succeed?). We’re talking about embedding a big picture message, repetitively, in an intricate and sometimes monotones (think about the multitudinous laws and regulations) epic, written down by an ancient people that weren’t considered to be all that intelligent (by modern standards)…. Soak that in for a while… :)

#5 CTD

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Posted 08 February 2009 - 07:47 PM

And don't forget all the copying errors that accumulated over the centuries. Although precautions were taken, "they couldn't have been 100% effective."

#6 Dave

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Posted 09 February 2009 - 03:27 PM

de_skudd,

Thanks for the interesting post. There are so many things like this in the Bible it defies reason. Chuck Missler's "Cosmic Codes," has a large number of "impossibilities" like the one you just posted -- both in the Old and New Testaments. It's available as a book, and also as a CD, I believe.

The danger with going too far with this, however, is in "finding" all sorts of names, weird prophecies, historical events, etc., embedded in the Bible's text.

Don't know where I'm going with this ... just thought I'd mention it. <_<

Dave

#7 de_skudd

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Posted 10 February 2009 - 03:22 AM

de_skudd,

Thanks for the interesting post. There are so many things like this in the Bible it defies reason. Chuck Missler's "Cosmic Codes," has a large number of "impossibilities" like the one you just posted -- both in the Old and New Testaments. It's available as a book, and also as a CD, I believe.

The danger with going too far with this, however, is in "finding" all sorts of names, weird prophecies, historical events, etc., embedded in the Bible's text.

Don't know where I'm going with this ... just thought I'd mention it. <_<

Dave

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That's true, but then again, there's danger in going too far in most everything we do....

#8 numbers

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Posted 13 February 2009 - 03:12 AM

- There are 308,000 letters in the Torah.

- The Hebrew word for Torah is four letters in length.

- When you scan through the Hebrew text to the first letter in the Hebrew word for Torah, then count 49 letters, you’ll find the second letter on Torah, count 49 more letters and find the third letter (and so on) till you’ll spell out the word TORAH (in Hebrew). As you count through the entire book of Genesis, every 49 letters, it repeats the word TORAH over and over again!

- You can repeat this process through the book of Exodus with the exact same result!

- But, when you come to the book of Leviticus, this process doesn’t work… Although, if you count seven letters from the beginning (of the book of Leviticus), and every seven letters thereafter, the Tetragrammaton (or YHWH the name of God) appears over and over again through that book.

- When you get to the book of Numbers and continually count the 49 letters, you get the TORAH spelled backwards!

- And the same in the book of Deuteronomy!

- What does this all mean? When you stand back and soak it all in, you see the word TORAH sequentially, every 50th letter in the first two and last two books of the Torah. And the book of Leviticus repeats the name of God over and over again. The Torah points from both directions to God!

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I've always found stuff like this amusing, could you provide your source for the claim that the pattern repeats throughout genesis, I was familiar with the claim that you could use a 49 letter skip to create a single "TORH" near the start of genesis, but as far as I was aware, it only works once, i.e. you can't "count through the entire book of Genesis, every 49 letters, it repeats the word TORAH over and over again"

What is even more amazing, is that it would take a bank of supercomputers to ATTEMPT to do the came thing (but would they succeed?)

And as for requiring a supercomputer to stick a message at the beginning or end....

It isn't very difficult to hide equidistant messages inside texts, provided that the message is written by someone who has time to spare and they don't mind taking a few minutes to write it out. Even backwards its not too difficult if the message that we write is spelled with rather common letters. It is even easier if a language is filled with synonyms.

DifficulttohideequidistAntmessagesinsidetextspRovidedthatthemessageisWrittenbyso
D----------------------A----------------------R----------------------W----------

meonewhohastImetospareandtheydontmiNd
------------I----------------------N


NbackwardsitsnottoodiffIcultifthemessagethatweWriteisspelledwithratheRcommonlett
N----------------------I----------------------W----------------------R----------

ersitiseveneAsierifalanguageisfilleDwith
------------A----------------------D

took about 15 minutes, no computer necessary


I personally think that the various bible codes are nothing more than people seeing patterns they want to see, but something like sticking "TORH" at the start or end of a book wouldn't be all that difficult to do, especially since there's no constraints on what the actual message was or what spacing was used.

#9 de_skudd

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Posted 13 February 2009 - 06:48 AM

I've always found stuff like this amusing, could you provide your source for the claim that the pattern repeats throughout genesis, I was familiar with the claim that you could use a 49 letter skip to create a single "TORH" near the start of genesis, but as far as I was aware, it only works once, i.e. you can't "count through the entire book of Genesis, every 49 letters, it repeats the word TORAH over and over again"
And as for requiring a supercomputer to stick a message at the beginning or end....

It isn't very difficult to hide equidistant messages inside texts, provided that the message is written by someone who has time to spare and they don't mind taking a few minutes to write it out. Even backwards its not too difficult if the message that we write is spelled with rather common letters.  It is even easier if a language is filled with synonyms.

DifficulttohideequidistAntmessagesinsidetextspRovidedthatthemessageisWrittenbyso
D----------------------A----------------------R----------------------W----------

meonewhohastImetospareandtheydontmiNd
------------I----------------------N
NbackwardsitsnottoodiffIcultifthemessagethatweWriteisspelledwithratheRcommonlett
N----------------------I----------------------W----------------------R----------

ersitiseveneAsierifalanguageisfilleDwith
------------A----------------------D

took about 15 minutes, no computer necessary


I personally think that the various bible codes are nothing more than people seeing patterns they want to see, but something like sticking "TORH" at the start or end of a book wouldn't be all that difficult to do, especially since there's no constraints on what the actual message was or what spacing was used.

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Chuck Missler, Cosmic Codes (1999), chapter 10.

We’ll see if this makes it easier for you:

“The name for Torah in Hebrew is spelled with four letters: תּוֹרָה (Hebrew is written with only consonants and is read from right to left). The name for God in Hebrew is Jehovah or Yahweh, spelled YHWH (יַהְוֶה)

In both Genesis and Exodus, beginning with the first ת (Hebrew “tau”, like our English “t”) in each book and skipping 49 letters, the Hebrew word for Torah is formed.
In the third book in the Bible, Leviticus, beginning with the first יּ (Hebrew “yod”, similar to our English “j”) and skipping 7 (the square root of 49), the Hebrew word for Yahweh is formed.

In the fourth book, Numbers, the word Torah is spelled, again, starting in verse 1, at a skip of 49, but this time backwards. In the last book, Deuteronomy, Torah is found again at every 49th letter (so this time a skip of 48), spelled backwards, and starting in verse five.”



I would be curious, have you actually attempted it? Because I have no problem working it out, and find your observation to be incorrect…

#10 numbers

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Posted 13 February 2009 - 01:18 PM

Chuck Missler, Cosmic Codes (1999), chapter 10.

We’ll see if this makes it easier for you:

“The name for Torah in Hebrew is spelled with four letters: תּוֹרָה (Hebrew is written with only consonants and is read from right to left). The name for God in Hebrew is Jehovah or Yahweh, spelled YHWH (יַהְוֶה)

In both Genesis and Exodus, beginning with the first ת (Hebrew “tau”, like our English “t”) in each book and skipping 49 letters, the Hebrew word for Torah is formed.
In the third book in the Bible, Leviticus, beginning with the first יּ  (Hebrew “yod”, similar to our English “j”) and skipping 7 (the square root of 49), the Hebrew word for Yahweh is formed.

In the fourth book, Numbers, the word Torah is spelled, again, starting in verse 1, at a skip of 49, but this time backwards. In the last book, Deuteronomy, Torah is found again at every 49th letter (so this time a skip of 48), spelled backwards, and starting in verse five.”
I would be curious, have you actually attempted it? Because I have no problem working it out, and find your observation to be incorrect…

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Maybe there's a misunderstanding here, your first post said that TORH is repeated constantly throughout genesis, as far as I am aware TORH only shows up once in genesis. Your latest post seems to be saying the same thing as I am. In other words, your original post seemed to make it sound like genesis went like this

T <-49 letters ->O<-49 letters ->R<-49 letters ->H<-49 letters ->T<-49 letters ->O<-49 letters ->R<-49 letters ->H<-49 letters ->T<-49 letters ->O<-49 letters ->R<-49 letters ->H........ etc.

Your latest post only mentions a single iteration of TORH with no hint of repetition in the rest of genesis
T<-49 letters ->O<-49 letters ->R<-49 letters ->H. the end.

I know about the single iteration of TORH, it's your claim and I'm quoting you here "it repeats the word TORAH over and over again" that I'm questioning and asking for confirmation of, ideally an online source since I don't have access to the book you mention.

#11 de_skudd

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Posted 21 February 2009 - 10:52 PM

Maybe there's a misunderstanding here, your first post said that TORH is repeated constantly throughout genesis, as far as I am aware TORH only shows up once in genesis.  Your latest post seems to be saying the same thing as I am.  In other words, your original post seemed to make it sound like genesis went like this

T <-49 letters ->O<-49 letters ->R<-49 letters ->H<-49 letters ->T<-49 letters ->O<-49 letters ->R<-49 letters ->H<-49 letters ->T<-49 letters ->O<-49 letters ->R<-49 letters ->H........ etc.

Your latest post only mentions a single iteration of TORH with no hint of repetition in the rest of genesis
T<-49 letters ->O<-49 letters ->R<-49 letters ->H. the end.

I know about the single iteration of TORH, it's your claim and I'm quoting you here "it repeats the word TORAH over and over again" that I'm questioning and asking for confirmation of, ideally an online source since I don't have access to the book you mention.

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I might suggest going to the local library if you don’t want to purchase the book. I might also suggest getting a copy of the TORAH, you may just be astonished (and yes, amazed)….

P.S. I added the vowel, as this is how we understand the word today...

#12 numbers

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Posted 24 February 2009 - 03:02 PM

I might suggest going to the local library if you don’t want to purchase the book. I might also suggest getting a copy of the TORAH, you may just be astonished (and yes, amazed)….

P.S. I added the vowel, as this is how we understand the word today...

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So in other words, you can't find any justification for your claim "As you count through the entire book of Genesis, every 49 letters, it repeats the word TORAH over and over again". Thanks, that's what I expected.

Just to make it clear, your original post says that in the book of genesis, one of the books in the torah, starting with the first "T", every 49th letter after that for the entirety of genesis is either a "T","0","R", or "H". The book you quoted only indicates this 49 letter skip happens for a single 200 letter block, not throughout the entire book of genesis.

And, yes, I'm aware vowels gets added in the english translation, that's why my example of the discrepancy between your original and subsequent posts used only 4 letters, dropping a vowel.

#13 de_skudd

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Posted 25 February 2009 - 12:10 PM

So in other words, you can't find any justification for your claim "As you count through the entire book of Genesis, every 49 letters, it repeats the word TORAH over and over again".  Thanks, that's what I expected.

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I see..... Given your attitude, and lack of willingness to do your own homework, you want me to provide links so you have nothing to do but criticize the work of others (regardless of the validity). Let me make sure you understand something: I gave you all the information you needed to check it out for your-self, and, some materials are not available online. So, if you want to jump ugly because I didn’t chew it up and spit it down your throat to satisfy your delicate palate, you may be waiting a while because I usually don’t put much effort into those who already have their mind made up, and aren’t willing to help themselves. Also, I don’t need to justify that which justifies itself…
I have a copy of the book, and I realize that doesn’t help you, but, this is why I suggested you go you your local library if you don’t want to spend the money. I have an audio copy of the author talking about the incident as well, and am well aware of his work in this area. You may also want to keep in mind, you have the ability to google the author’s name (book title etc…), had you exercised your computer skills, and done a little of you own legwork.
I also have a number of translations of the OT in Hebrew and w/ interlinear (amongst many other tools). And to achieve what I suggested, isn’t hard to do, so I can’t help you if you’re going to have an attitude, and pretend it cannot be accomplished.
So, again, I ask; have you attempted this?

Just to make it clear, your original post says that in the book of genesis, one of the books in the torah, starting with the first "T", every 49th letter after that for the entirety of genesis is either a "T","0","R", or "H".  The book you quoted only indicates this 49 letter skip happens for a single 200 letter block, not throughout the entire book of genesis.
And, yes, I'm aware vowels gets added in the english translation, that's why my example of the discrepancy between your original and subsequent posts used only 4 letters, dropping a vowel.

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No, (just to make it clear) you count 49 letters then (i.e. the 50th letter)… “T”, then 49 more letters “O”, etc… And yes, it continues throughout the entirety of the book. And the book I quoted indicates this 49 letter skip (to the 50th) happens for throughout the entire book of genesis (according to its author). And it does work out; regardless of your misinterpretation of my original post (though, I admit, I could have been more concise for the pickers of the nits) just to make it clear.
There was NO discrepancy between my original and subsequent posts, because I was using the modern vernacular for the word TORH (i.e.Torah) because this is how most understand it today (outside of academia). The reason I asserted the dropping of the vowel, is because you brought it up, and I wanted to acknowledge the fact. But, in-as-much as your assertion about the quote I posted, he goes on to say, “over and over”. I’m not in the habit of posting books, in their entirety, at forums. I do leave some work up to the readers, so, in actuality your assumption about the book is incorrect.
So, again, I ask; have you attempted this?

#14 numbers

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Posted 26 February 2009 - 03:06 AM

I see.....  Given your attitude, and lack of willingness to do your own homework, you want me to provide links so you have nothing to do but criticize the work of others (regardless of the validity). Let me make sure you understand something: I gave you all the information you needed to check it out for your-self, and, some materials are not available online. So, if you want to jump ugly because I didn’t chew it up and spit it down your throat to satisfy your delicate palate, you may be waiting a while because I usually  don’t put much effort into those who already have their mind made up, and aren’t willing to help themselves. Also,  I don’t need to justify that which justifies itself…
I have a copy of the book, and I realize that doesn’t help you, but, this is why I suggested you go you your local library if you don’t want to spend the money. I have an audio copy of the author talking about the incident as well, and am well aware of his work in this area. You may also want to keep in mind, you have the ability to google the author’s name (book title etc…), had you exercised your computer skills, and done a little of you own legwork.
I also have a number of translations of the OT in Hebrew and w/ interlinear (amongst many other tools). And to achieve what I suggested, isn’t hard to do, so I can’t help you if you’re going to have an attitude, and pretend it cannot be accomplished.
So, again, I ask; have you attempted this?
No, (just to make it clear) you count 49 letters then (i.e. the 50th letter)… “T”, then 49 more letters “O”, etc… And yes, it continues throughout the entirety of the book. And the book I quoted indicates this 49 letter skip (to the 50th) happens for throughout the entire book of genesis (according to its author). And it does work out; regardless of your misinterpretation of my original post (though, I admit, I could have been more concise for the pickers of the nits) just to make it clear.
There was NO discrepancy between my original and subsequent posts, because I was using the modern vernacular for the word TORH (i.e.Torah) because this is how most understand it today (outside of academia). The reason I asserted the dropping of the vowel, is because you brought it up, and I wanted to acknowledge the fact. But, in-as-much as your assertion about the quote I posted, he goes on to say, “over and over”. I’m not in the habit of posting books, in their entirety, at forums. I do leave some work up to the readers, so, in actuality your assumption about the book is incorrect.
So, again, I ask; have you attempted this?

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Of course I checked, I wouldn't have asked for your source if I wasn't fairly sure your claim was wrong, I just wanted to see your source so I could see if it was your source or a misreading of your source that caused the mistake.

After the final ה in תּוֹרָה by my count the next 50th letter in genesis is another הַ (he, not tau) and it occurs in this sequence of letters וֹךְ הַמָּיִם (I provided the extra letters on either side in case I miscounted since i have no training in recognizing hebrew letters).Notice the complete lack of תּ anywhere in that sequence. I'm curious, since you've said you tested it, what did you find to be the 50th letter after the final ה in the first occurance of תּוֹרָה in genesis.

There's plenty of online sources showing the single occurrence in genesis, such as http://www.direct.ca...nity/torah.html, where the letters are circled for the single instance of תּוֹרָה in genesis, but nobody but you seems to think the pattern repeats throughout genesis. The lack of any online corroboration for your claim should have been a glaring red flag if you had bothered to check.

In genesis, there's only the single occurrence of תּוֹרָה using a 50 letter skip, which isn't statistically significant. If תּוֹרָה did get repeated consistently throughout genesis, that would be quite remarkable, but the fact is that it doesn't.

#15 oliver

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Posted 10 March 2009 - 11:24 AM

The claim that the word TORAH (Tau Waw Resh He) repeats over and over with 49-letter intervals in Genesis is incorrect. It occurs 3 times in Genesis at that interval, according to Chuck Missler's book (p. 128), which is roughly according to probability for a text of that size. However, it occurs at that interval beginning from the first tau in both Genesis and Exodus. It appears backwards at that interval beginning from the first He in Numbers and Deuteronomy. In Leviticus the name of God YHWH (Yod He Waw He) appears starting at the first Yod at intervals of 7 letters - 7 is root 49 of course.

By itself none of these is very significant. Their combination is very significant.

First the number 7 is numerologically important; it represents perfection or completeness. There is an obvious intensive relation between 7 and its square.

Second, the pattern becomes more significant in that it starts at the first occurrence in each book.

Third the pattern not only signs each book but makes an overall signature for the whole Pentateuch:

TORH --> TORH --> YHWH <-- HROT <-- HROT

This obviously carries significance; it is very, very unlikely to be due to chance. It shows that all five books are the Torah and that they all point to God himself. Furthermore Leviticus, which is signed by YHWH, is the book that above all is about God and his holiness.

A crude probability calculation.
There are 22 letters in the Hebrew alphabet, so the chance of a particular letter occurring at any particular position is 1/22. Since we start from the first occurrence of the first letter, the probability of that particular letter is 1; the probability of each of the other 3 occurring at the specified position is 1/22, so the probability for the chosen word occurring in any one book at a particular interval is 1/(22^3) = 1/10648. That could be by chance, albeit at fairly long odds.

The probability of that particular pattern occurring over five books is 1/(10648^5) = 1/136880068015412051968 or 1/1.37e+20 on the basis of unweighted letter frequency.

That calculation needs to be refined to allow for relative letter frequencies.

Again we ignore the first letter in each case, since that is specified by the pattern; this time we multiply each letter by its relative frequency in the whole bible (from the table on p 150 of Chuck Missler's book - all rounded to 2 decimal places):

TORH 1 x 0.1083 x .0569 x 0.0852 = 5.25e-4
HROT 1 x .0569 x 0.1083 x .0528 = 3.25e-4
YHWH 1 x 0.1152 x 0.0852 x 0.1083 = 1.06e-3

That gives a total probability of 1/1.01e+16. That is odds of 10 quadrillion to one against (US quadrillion).

On those odds I would not consider it wise to bet on its being a chance pattern.


Next we should consider whether Moses intended to make that pattern.

(If the "higher" critics were right and the Torah were a compilation by editors of conflicting texts stuck together, I think we could entirely discount the idea that they would think of such a thing. On that theory they didn't even have the intelligence to reconcile the supposed conflicts)

If Moses intended it, I think it would have been known in earlier centuries. In fact I believe it has only been discovered as a result of running computer programs looking for such patterns; therefore I think it very unlikely that Moses intended it or was even aware that it was there. Finally, the early chapters of Genesis bear the marks of having been written much earlier, and passed down from Adam and his descendants through Noah. Moses would not have wished to change them any more than necessary, or even at all.

#16 the totton linnet

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Posted 16 March 2009 - 05:42 PM

I have swirling in my mind an unthought out thought
is it possible that ancient scribes used this as a kind of security check? to make certain that no words had been added to or taken away from the text?
Say for example someone in reading or teaching were to say something that hit a false note, then it would be easy to check section by section if something had been added to or taken away.
It could even be a secret code only known by the elders and priests which would account for the fact that it is not anywhere acknowledged historically.
I am quite suspicious of codes having a hidden spiritual meaning, that is the way of gnostics whereas our God always speaks with open face, to His children at least. Just thoughts, that is if I have understood what was being discussed in the first place :) ;)

#17 Adam Nagy

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Posted 16 March 2009 - 05:52 PM

totten, I'm with you, sister. ;)

#18 CTD

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Posted 16 March 2009 - 06:40 PM

I have swirling in my mind an unthought out thought
is it possible that ancient scribes used this as a kind of security check? to make certain that no words had been added to or taken away from the text?
Say for example someone in reading or teaching were to say something that hit a false note, then it would be easy to check section by section if something had been added to or taken away.
It could even be a secret code only known by the elders and priests which would account for the fact that it is not anywhere acknowledged historically.
I am quite suspicious of codes having a hidden spiritual meaning, that is the way of gnostics whereas our God always speaks with open face, to His children at least. Just thoughts, that is if I have understood what was being discussed in the first place :)  ;)

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It is somewhat similar to security measures used to ensure fidelity in file copying. It is also the same technique employed by some DNA procedures.

#19 oliver

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Posted 16 March 2009 - 11:36 PM

I have swirling in my mind an unthought out thought
is it possible that ancient scribes used this as a kind of security check? to make certain that no words had been added to or taken away from the text?
Say for example someone in reading or teaching were to say something that hit a false note, then it would be easy to check section by section if something had been added to or taken away.
It could even be a secret code only known by the elders and priests which would account for the fact that it is not anywhere acknowledged historically.
I am quite suspicious of codes having a hidden spiritual meaning, that is the way of gnostics whereas our God always speaks with open face, to His children at least. Just thoughts, that is if I have understood what was being discussed in the first place :)  ;)

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It's a possible answer. However, if you consider how text was written in those days, it might be very difficult to achieve.

To build such a feature in (into 5 separate books, or scrolls) you would have to have a clear plan of what you were going to do when you started writing. You have to meet a specified pattern. When you write some text, you have to make sure that no unwanted letter occurs to break the pattern -- that there should be no He, for example, within 150 letters before the terminating one (for TORH). Now He's frequency is about 8.5%; in other words 1 letter in 12 on average is He. So you are certainly going to have to struggle to achieve that. You have to do it using bulky wax or clay tablets, which are really the only medium where you can write, erase and rewrite. It would be like trying to write a similar length of text in English without using E.

Finally, if it were a security feature (security against what?) people would have known about it. If no one at all knows a security feature exists, it is not fulfilling its purpose.

The Hebrew scribes did use a security feature to ensure letter perfect copies, as I understand it. First a letter by letter check and second a numerical check based on gematria, the numeric value of each letter, But an embedded code of this kind would only guarantee every 50th/8th letter in a short piece of text. So such a check, even if known and used, would be mostly ineffective.

#20 de_skudd

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Posted 17 March 2009 - 04:45 AM

It could even be a secret code only known by the elders and priests which would account for the fact that it is not anywhere acknowledged historically.
I am quite suspicious of codes having a hidden spiritual meaning, that is the way of gnostics whereas our God always speaks with open face, to His children at least. Just thoughts, that is if I have understood what was being discussed in the first place

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I would tend to agree with you totton, except that the elders and priests may not have even known about this. It may have been written into the scriptures specifically for this hour (a time like this). + It would be a difficult thing to write in, and intermingle in this message without detracting from the overall continuity. And as far as openness (or open face) this is a straight forward message that doesn’t deviate from the overall message.




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