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#21 jason78

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Posted 23 February 2009 - 07:01 AM

No, most mutations would be more likened to malware or worms, and as we all know, these are harmful to computers…

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Malware or worms are completely different pieces of software. Mutations would be like getting CRC error from your hard drive.

#22 Adam Nagy

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Posted 23 February 2009 - 07:30 AM

Malware or worms are completely different pieces of software.  Mutations would be like getting CRC error from your hard drive.

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I'm starting to see a gnat straining expedition. :D

Jason78, it almost sounds like your are acknowledging a much higher level of sophistication in DNA while simultaneously saying that this somehow props up evolution when an honest inquiry will recognize that the built in sophistication of DNA makes Computers and their programs look like tinker toys.

#23 jason78

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Posted 23 February 2009 - 07:45 AM

I'm starting to see a gnat straining expedition. :D

Jason78, it almost sounds like your are acknowledging a much higher level of sophistication in DNA while simultaneously saying that this somehow props up evolution when an honest inquiry will recognize that the built in sophistication of DNA makes Computers and their programs look like tinker toys.

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It almost sounds like you are saying that DNA is so complex that no intelligence could have possibly constructed it.

You may think that computers are tinker toys, but show me the piece of DNA that can perform 3 billion floating point calculations a second.

#24 performedge

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Posted 23 February 2009 - 08:03 AM

DNA is special because any mutation to any of the amino acids in the chain will either insert, delete, or change the amino acid to one of the other four amino acids.  The same isn't true of computer code.

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DNA is indeed special, but not because of what you stated. A change in a nucleotide does not just change an amino acid. Let me see if I can help your undestanidng. In the human genome there is about 3 billion base pairs. A change via insertion, deletion, frameshift etc. does not necessarily change an amino acid.

The human genome project estimated the number of genes in humans to be 20-25000. Genes produce the proteins. That means that only about 1.5% of those 3 billion base pairs codes for genes. and 98.5% is "non coding".

Now those terms coding and "non coding" will change over time, because now we know that even though the 98.5% does not create the protein sequence, it does affect the amount of proteins produced. In fact it is very similar to a computer program in which I will use the printing function as "producing" something. When you print something there is a particular subroutine that prints according to what is in the software as well as what has been inputted into the printing routine. You can change a variable and print one page or twenty pages. The page doesn't change, but the amount of pages does.

So these "non-coding" areas are actually very important coding regions that we are just begining to understand. Some of these "non-coding" bps are within the stretch of the gene. So a 1000 amino acid chain protein will have a corresponing DNA sequence (gene) that is much longer than 3000 bases. Those extra bases are weeded out during translation. The intragenetic material also has function of which we really only poorly understand at this point. Since the complexity of life is far more complicated than any sofware or machine human can invision, then why should we be able to understand the code.

The fact is, we don't.

So what you said about just making simple changes causes a new amino acid to be created is just plain wrong. Changes in the DNA may have no affect on proteins or protein production. These are neutral mutations. Changes in DNA may affect protein production. For instance our skin color is from melanin. We are all brown. Caucasions produce less melanin, and darker skinned peoples produce more melanin. These are also considered neutral changes for the most part, because they don't affect fitness. Then very rarely we have negative mutations that may or may not be related to the genes themselves. These produce fitness costs in the current environment. Then very very very very very rarely we have beneficial mutations that cause information to be lost from the gene pool, but they appear to be beneficial to the organism in a given environment. These changes have all been shown to have a fitness cost in the original environment, so what we have is what we see in observable science. We have devolution.

Evolution only happens in the imaginations of men and of atheists.

Have you ever wondered why much the evidence for evolution is in the fossil record? You can "see" all those supposed changes over time. All of which must have been beneficial. These are all skeletal changes for the most part. Yet you will never see a present day mutation that causes a skeletal change that is considered beneficial. We do see skeletal changes that happen in animals, but never is it considered beneficial. It is always detrimental. You'll never see a textbook where this rat was mutated skeletally and the mutations were benefical.

We have gigantism in humans and we have dwarfism in humans. Both are clearly genetic, and clearly involve skeletal changes. And they also have significantly higher costs to survival. We see the same in all of the animals.

Maybe you never see it being beneficial, because it doesn't happen.

Evos have to really stretch just to show evidence of beneficial mutations. Here is a page from TalkOrigins. You have six examples of supposed benefical mutations there. Rather than argue any of them, I will just ask, Can any be seen in the fossil record?

The answer is absolutely not. This is why creationists are correct in saying there is no fossil evidence of evolution. It doesn't exist.

#25 Adam Nagy

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Posted 23 February 2009 - 08:05 AM

It almost sounds like you are saying that DNA is so complex that no intelligence could have possibly constructed it.

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I'm hardly saying any such thing. I'm saying the choices are mindless happenstance or intelligent design. You have chosen poorly based on the evidence.

You may think that computers are tinker toys, but show me the piece of DNA that can perform 3 billion floating point calculations a second.

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Are you seriously entertaining the idea that our technology is better then what resides in the human body?!? This is the first time I've witnessed such hubris from you, Jason.

#26 performedge

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Posted 23 February 2009 - 08:14 AM

It almost sounds like you are saying that DNA is so complex that no intelligence could have possibly constructed it.

You may think that computers are tinker toys, but show me the piece of DNA that can perform 3 billion floating point calculations a second.

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:D :D :)

Jason,

Show me a computer that can manufacture itself. Show me a computer that can manufacture and construct the building in which it is manufactured. Show me a computer that can build an entire city of builidngs. Show me a computer that can integrate all of that together. Show me a computer that can create the energy it needs and remove all of its waste products for the entire city. And when you have shown me this computer, then please shrink it to the microscopic size of DNA.

No intelligence on this earth could have constructed it. Neither could nature.

And jason, how about I show you the DNA that even allows you to think about making a computer that generates 3 billion calcualtions a second.

#27 Adam Nagy

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Posted 23 February 2009 - 08:30 AM

Hey performadge,

Don't forget that Jason is trying to get us impressed with comparing a super computer:

Posted Image

compared to a single human cell. :D

I wonder if we added up all the calculations that are cumulatively happening in the human body with the entire super structure considered as one computer how any super computer in the world would fair then? :D

#28 performedge

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Posted 23 February 2009 - 08:43 AM

Hey performadge,

Don't forget that Jason is trying to get us impressed with comparing a super computer:

Posted Image

compared to a single human cell. :D

I wonder if we added up all the calculations that are cumulatively happening in the human body with the entire super structure considered as one computer how any super computer in the world would fair then?  :D

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Yes, exactly. And a computer doesn't produce anything. It only produces a signal of 1's and 0's. It takes other pieces of equipment to do something with those 1's and 0's.

DNA not only has the code, but it builds the cell itself. Then it knows how to build liver cell, hair cells, eye cells, blood cells etc., yet they all use the same code. And then it buids brain cells to integrate all of these entities together. What is truly amazing is the level of blindness to not be able to see the complexity within DNA.

#29 jason78

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Posted 23 February 2009 - 09:30 AM

Hey performadge,

Don't forget that Jason is trying to get us impressed with comparing a super computer:

compared to a single human cell. :rolleyes:

I wonder if we added up all the calculations that are cumulatively happening in the human body with the entire super structure considered as one computer how any super computer in the world would fair then?  :lol:

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This is interesting. Can you show how even one calculation is performed by a cell? If you can't show how a cell can perform a calculation, can you show how a brain performs one?

If the human brain is so sophisticated and good at calculations why is it that a human cannot beat a machine at a simple game of chess?

#30 Adam Nagy

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Posted 23 February 2009 - 09:43 AM

If the human brain is so sophisticated and good at calculations why is it that a human cannot beat a machine at a simple game of chess?

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Jason,

Who figured out the code to understand the movement of the chess board to formulate the algorithms and probabilities so the computer can play chess in the first place?

Did you ever look at ladder logic? The reason computers are as efficient as they are is because they are locked into following logic and don't have the capacity to defy it. If a computer program is fed something illogical it crashes.

The majority of our body works like this and it is far more complicated then a chess game when it comes to a living organism balancing entire systems to maintain homeostasis. This all occurs in the subconscious... how miraculous!

Your gnat straining expedition is going down in flames here, Jason, admit it.

#31 jason78

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Posted 23 February 2009 - 10:04 AM

Who figured out the code to understand the movement of the chess board to formulate the algorithms and probabilities so the computer can play chess in the first place?

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A person did. So surely a person with its superior biological brain should be able to beat it surely? Would that not be a reasonable assumption?

Did you ever look at ladder logic? The reason computers are as efficient as they are is because they are locked into following logic and don't have the capacity to defy it. If a computer program is fed something illogical it crashes.

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No, I've no idea what ladder logic is. While a computer programmed to play chess might be locked into the logic of playing chess, it doesn't stop it from changing tactics mid game to pursue a win.

The majority of our body works like this and it is far more complicated then a chess game when it comes to a living organism balancing entire systems to maintain homeostasis. This all occurs in the subconscious... how miraculous!

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Your subconscious maintains your homeostasis? You'll have to go into more detail about how that works.

Your gnat straining expedition is going down in flames here, Jason, admit it.

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Begging me to admit I am wrong does not bode well for your position. You should be able to show that I am wrong. You've still yet to show a piece of DNA, a cell, or even a brain that can perform 3 billion floating point calculations a second. All you've done is show me a super computer that can.

#32 Adam Nagy

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Posted 23 February 2009 - 10:08 AM

You should be able to show that I am wrong.  You've still yet to show a piece of DNA, a cell, or even a brain that can perform 3 billion floating point calculations a second.  All you've done is show me a super computer that can.

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Watch this seminar if you really want evidence:

http://www.evolution...?showtopic=2059

#33 Adam Nagy

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Posted 23 February 2009 - 10:38 AM

A person did.  So surely a person with its superior biological brain should be able to beat it surely?  Would that not be a reasonable assumption?

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You're begging the question as to what defines superiority here? Is a sledge hammer physically superior to a human head because when the two come into violent contact with each other the sledge hammer will be unaffected and the human head will be crushed? Maybe some careful defining is needed before we get sucked into the black hole of ambiguity.

You do see what I'm saying here, right? Showing that one thing can do something that something else can't isn't automatically an evidence of superiority.

How about this example:

We can sin and God can't. Would that be a mark of superiority on our part?

No, I've no idea what ladder logic is.  While a computer programmed to play chess might be locked into the logic of playing chess, it doesn't stop it from changing tactics mid game to pursue a win.

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It changes tactics or differentiates between sub-programs by calculating probabilities. It does not ponder tactics it calculates with precision which maneuvers are most likely to establish a victory. This is all pre-programmed. It is taught how to calculate through very basic logic commands that it can not defy.

http://en.wikipedia....i/Boolean_logic

The logic employed by programs is so straight forward that it isn't even funny. There are a very small handful of logic commands that utilize all the 1's and 0's in a computer to make all the wonderful virtual tools we have.

Fred would know about this better than I would but when I programed CNC machines I utilized logic commands to simplify and integrate sub-programs to make them more flexible and intuitive.

Your subconscious maintains your homeostasis?  You'll have to go into more detail about how that works.

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Simple. Do you tell your body when you are thirsty or does your body tell you when it is thirsty?

Your mind is liberated because the internal maintenance of maintaining homeostasis is a pre-programmed hands off endeavor except for the act of eating which itself is triggered subconsciously to give the sensation of hunger. Isn't that amazing? Yet a group of people think evolution is the right place to put our efforts of adoration. :lol:

Just think about it. All the activity you do to protect yourself from perishing are based on purposed and pre-programmed sensations, whether they are hormonal or nervous system related stimuli that give you the conscious heads up that something is wrong. Basically, your decision making process is based on a bunch of calculations and back checking that your mind and tissues made before you're even asked by your own mind to make a conscious decision. Of course, we all know that that is just the product of billions of years worth of freak of nature accidents. :rolleyes:

Take a look at what happens; when what we take for granted doesn't function as it should:

http://en.wikipedia....with_anhidrosis

#34 de_skudd

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Posted 23 February 2009 - 10:55 AM

Malware or worms are completely different pieces of software.  Mutations would be like getting CRC error from your hard drive.

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No, they all work against the betterment of the system....

#35 de_skudd

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Posted 23 February 2009 - 10:58 AM

It almost sounds like you are saying that DNA is so complex that no intelligence could have possibly constructed it.

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That is a self defeating and self contradicting statement. How could something be so complex that it shows no design…. Unless, of course you’re suggesting a “Higher” designer?

#36 Adam Nagy

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Posted 23 February 2009 - 11:00 AM

Let's go one step further regarding the body as a program and how it works.

Isn't it interesting that the Human body has a conscious and a sub-conscious that overlap not only out of necessity but convenience as well.

For example:

If evolution is true how did it develop an understanding that it is best to make the respiratory system voluntary and involuntary? How many animals with lungs died from drowning or toxic fumes before it was devised that breathing should have the capacity to be overridden so an animal can hold its breath?

If evolution is true when did the convenience of being able to postpone defecation and urination become a viable adaptation? Who cares if so-called higher life forms can hold it, except for convenience.

#37 CTD

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Posted 23 February 2009 - 11:28 AM

Slow down folks. This junk is so polywrong you could write for days. But I think we prefer an orderly discussion.

#38 performedge

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Posted 23 February 2009 - 12:05 PM

This is interesting.  Can you show how even one calculation is performed by a cell? If you can't show how a cell can perform a calculation, can you show how a brain performs one?

If the human brain is so sophisticated and good at calculations why is it that a human cannot beat a machine at a simple game of chess?

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Jason,

Your logic is just falling apart all over the place.

In case you don't know what a calculation is.....

A calculation is a deliberate process for transforming one or more inputs into one or more results, with variable change.

- wiki

Well certainly I hope you can at least agree that the production of proteins from DNA is a deliberate process. The process of making proteins is exactly what a calculation is. You have the input of the information from the DNA and it is transformed chemically into the results of the protein.

Now in case you also don't understand DNA is in every cell of your body and it is all the same. 6 Trillion cells. At any one moment gazillions of calculations are being performed all over your body, not just in your brain.

And since you think the almighty computer is very powerful, then why does it take a DNA endowed person to design one?

#39 Adam Nagy

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Posted 23 February 2009 - 12:05 PM

Slow down folks. This junk is so polywrong you could write for days. But I think we prefer an orderly discussion.

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We are meandering off topic here, aren't we? Well, personally I just wanted to show how so much of the machine that we physically are have all the underpinnings of a complex purposed and ordered systems that are integrated together without our effort or knowledge.

To believe that macro-evolution is the means by which this comes about is a pipe dream and a blind faith.

#40 jason78

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Posted 23 February 2009 - 12:25 PM

It changes tactics or differentiates between sub-programs by calculating probabilities. It does not ponder tactics it calculates with precision which maneuvers are most likely to establish a victory. This is all pre-programmed. It is taught how to calculate through very basic logic commands that it can not defy.

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And what do you do when you play chess? You pick the best move based on your probability of success. All your moves in the game are based on rules that you can not defy.

The logic employed by programs is so straight forward that it isn't even funny. There are a very small handful of logic commands that utilize all the 1's and 0's in a computer to make all the wonderful virtual tools we have.

Fred would know about this better than I would but when I programed CNC machines I utilized logic commands to simplify and integrate sub-programs to make them more flexible and intuitive.
Simple. Do you tell your body when you are thirsty or does your body tell you when it is thirsty?

Your mind is liberated because the internal maintenance of maintaining homeostasis is a pre-programmed hands off endeavor except for the act of eating which itself is triggered subconsciously to give the sensation of hunger. Isn't that amazing? Yet a group of people think evolution is the right place to put our efforts of adoration.  :lol:

Just think about it. All the activity you do to protect yourself from perishing are based on purposed and pre-programmed sensations, whether they are hormonal or nervous system related stimuli that give you the conscious heads up that something is wrong. Basically, your decision making process is based on a bunch of calculations and back checking that your mind and tissues made before you're even asked by your own mind to make a conscious decision. Of course, we all know that that is just the product of billions of years worth of freak of nature accidents.  :rolleyes:

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I would have thought that someone with your background would be familiar with something like a positive feedback loop.




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