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100 Categories Of "evidence" Against Noah's Flood


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#1 Crispus

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Posted 16 March 2009 - 04:15 PM

This is a list of 100 supposed categories of evidence taken from a thread which is now closed on evcforum. Many of you here are more knowledgeable about geology and biology and more familiar with the arguments against a global flood. So I thought I'd post it here and will provide answers for some of them.

1. Angular unconformities – Angular unconformities are where sediments are laid down in layers, then tilted and eroded, then new sediments are deposited on top. How does a global flood simultaneously deposit, tilt, and erode in the same exact place?

Crispus - Obviously this didn’t happen simultaneously. Hills and rock formations would have settled and been compacted during the flood due to the pressure of being under water. When mountains and other geological structures were raised up some rock formations were tilted and as waves of water went over them some earth would have been eroded and more earth from other sources would have been deposited by waves moving across the tops of the formations.

On creationwiki.org there is a response to an article about the Grand Canyon on talk origins which mentions angular unconformities.

http://creationwiki....ng_Flood_waters

2. Radiometric dating – All common forms of radiometric dating, including C14, K-Ar, Ar-Ar, Rb-Sr, Th-Pb, U-Pb, and fission track. The dates derived from these diverse methods, when properly interpreted rather than intentionally misapplied, show that all but the very most recent deposits in the geologic column is vastly older than any postulated flood.[/quote]

Crispus - The poster uses the phrase “intentionally misapplied” because when rocks that are known to be young have been dated with the potassium argon method they give dates that are way off. It cannot be observed that the dates given for rocks believed to be millions or billions of years old are close to the actual ages. I don’t trust the results of radiometric dating. Carbon dating results depends on factors like a constant rate of decay and no changes in the atmosphere that would affect the C14/C12 ratios. See The Problem with Carbon 14 and other dating methods

There is a good summary of the problem in a paper called Radiocarbon: Ages in Error from the Anthropological Journal of Canada Limitations and Usefulness of Rio Carbon Dating (see Problems With Radiocarbon Dating)

In the late 1990’s samples of volcanic rock from New Zealand were sent to laboratories to be dated using the potassium-argon method. The oldest sample was about fifty years old and the rocks were dated from hundreds of thousands of years old to more than two million years old. Samples from a lave dome on Mt. St. Helen were dated between .35-2.8 million years using the potassium-argon method. Hualalai basalt from Hawaii known to have been formed from 1800-1801 was dated at about 1.6 million years old. There are other examples like basalt from Mt. Etna that was formed in 1792 and dated at 350,000 years old. Then there’s KNM-ER 1470, a modern looking skull, found by Richard Leakey in 1972. It was originally dated at 2.9 million years and eventually at 1.9 million years.

On talk origins they try to explain the dinosaur that Mary Schweitzer found by interviewing her colleague who said "No cells have been found in any dinosaurs, but the remnants of red blood cells have been hypothesized on the basis of heme, a kind of iron produced biologically." Besides iron heme contains oxygen, hydrogen, nitrogen, and carbon. I would like for scientists to carbon date the heme and soft tissue in that fossilized dinosaur. There are as many links as you probably would ever want on radiometric dating at http://nwcreation.ne...atinglinks.html

3. Fossil Sorting – The sorting of fossils in the geologic record is consistent with evolution and geology across all formations worldwide. There are basically no fossils of dinosaurs found with modern mammals, even when such dinosaurs could fly. There are no flowering plants in the Cambrian, no grasses, no mammals, and no birds. The overall sorting does not show any evidence consistent with a flood or settling in water. [/quote]

Crispus - Fossils are a result of rapid burial and removal from oxygen. The record indicates mass extinction which evolutionary scientists try to attribute to several extinction events. One wouldn't expect flowering plants in the Cambrian since the latter were sea creatures unless they were forced into an area where they were buried together. Two things to be considered are ecological and biogeographic zonation. Secondly, if many transitional fossils have been lost due to erosion over hundreds of millions of years and more creatures have been fossilized due to catastrophic conditions I’m surprised there haven’t been more fossils of creatures from a later era discovered with those of an earlier era.

4. Varves – How does one create 20 million annual layers, each layer which would have taken at least a month to settle due to hydrodynamics as is observed in the Green River Formation? How does one explain seasonal of pollen grains found in the layers?

Crispus - This is a topic for me to research and I know the Green River formation is one of the topics that is debated when it comes to a global flood. I don’t believe they're 20 million annual layers because it's is unreasonable to believe that varves were created with the similar climactic conditions every year (or almost every year) without any droughts, earthquakes, hurricanes etc. that would have dramatically affected sedimentary layers. Also there a fossilized fish was found swallowing another fish in the Green River formation indication rapid burial.

http://www.trueorigi...walkergeo01.asp

5. Sedimentation rates – Why would there be Precambrian rocks below ones feet in the Canadian Shield area, yet the entire geologic column in the Williston Basin in North Dakota? Why would a global flood scour down to the Precambrian in one place yet at the same time deposit tens of thousands of feet of sediment in another when it is exactly the same process? Giant post-pyramid ice ages are not an explanation as there is no written record or other evidence of increased historical glaciation to the extent needed to scour the Canadian Shield down in the last 4500 years, not to mention such Precambrian rocks elsewhere on Earth like South Africa.

Crispus - The poster doesn't seem to understand that there were two general processes: the flood (transgression) and the uplifting of mountains which caused the waters to recede (recession).

6. Lava layers with ancient soils between flows – How could lava forms which only exist with a land surface interface create interbedded deposits with paleosoils?

7. Ice sheets – Ice caps can’t reform in the time allotted since any global flood of 4500 years ago.

Crispus - We don’t believe there was more than one ice age besides the “little ice age” or a similar event. The oxygen isotopes ratios depend on there being consistent annual layers – uniformitarianism.

8. Ice core data with correlated known volcanic events – Ice cores can be dated back by multiple methods nearly a million years, yet show no evidence of a global flood.

Crispus - The difference between the old flow model and the young earth model is the former assumes the ice sheets have been forming at a consistent rate for tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of years. Again this depends on the uniformitarian position and the assumption the ice sheet has been in equilibrium for a very long period of time. There’s an article about rapid changes in oxygen isotope content of ice cores at http://www.icr.org/r...searchp_lv_r02/

9. Ocean core data – Ocean cores would show unsorted piles of terrestrial life and different distributions in grain sizes than observed. They would also show little difference in thickness between the mid Atlantic ridge and near subduction zones, which is not what is observed.

Crispus - I haven’t researched this but the answer may be the same as the one above. Here are two quotes from "Geology," the first about deep sea cores:

"Warming causes expansion of the seawater (sea-level rise); cooling results in contraction (sea- level fall). It has been estimated from oxygen isotope evidence in deep-sea cores that worldwide sea level has been 430-450 feet lower than today several times during the last 2-3 million years of earth history."
(Geology Vol. 2, p. 390 edited by James A. Woodhead, Salem Press 1999)

"The actual mechanism in the ocean basins is related to heat flow from the earth's interior at the mid-ocean ridges. As the ridges become more volcanically active, an increase in heat flow occurs; the high heat flow causes an increase in the elevation of the mid-ocean ridge. This increase in elevation causes a decrease in the volume of ocean basins, resulting in a transgression. As the volcanic activity decreases, heat flow decreases, and the elevation of the mid-ocean ridge drops so that volume of the ocean basins is increased. This results in a regression. Sea-level changes brought about by this process produce large-scale fluctuations resulting in the flooding of not only the continental shelves and the coastal plains but also the interiors of the continents. Much of the geologic record contains rocks deposited in seas in continental interiors. This process may result in transgressions where ancient sea-level could be as much as 300 meters above present sea level.
(Geology Vol. 2, edited by James A. Woodhead, Salem Press, 1999, p. 649)

Do you see the problem?

10. Paleomagnetism – Because the Earth’s magnetic field has reversed polarity and has wandered over the globe in the past, certain igneous rocks show such preferred magnetic orientations when sufficiently cooled. By mapping these directions and reversals, which correlate with radioisotope dating and stratigraphy, it is easily shown that the vast majority of seafloor sediments, along with most volcanic rock, are way too old to have been deposited by any flood. In fact such measurements are one of the great evidences for plate tectonics, which alone invalidate a global flood.[/quote]

Crispus - The question depends, at least in part, on the magnetic field having reverse polarity. This is something I haven’t researched but it may be another way of evolutionists trying to explain away an argument for a young earth. Given the lies they told me in school about evolution and knowing that it is a belief system – a philosophy – to which many cling, I have doubts about the magnetic field’s reverse polarity. Plate tectonics does not invalidate a global flood, it’s a question of whether or not the continents have been drifting for millions of years or were separated and spread out over a much shorter time period.

11. Volcanism – According to ‘flood geology’ every igneous rock layer that overlays sedimentary rock would have to be less than 4500 years old. Yet, historical records indicate this tremendous amount of simultaneous volcanic activity could not have occurred in recent times because someone would have noticed, becoming extinct and all when the atmosphere becomes unbreathable. Such a position directly contradicts the existence of the Deccan Traps which are up to 2 km thick and 500,000 square km in extent, yet supposedly erupted in India despite any historic evidence, after such a flood.

12. Ore deposit formation rates – Most ore deposits require a longer period of time to separate their constituent elements and then cool to create an economically viable source of minerals.

13. Evaporites – The existence of evaporate deposits thousands of feet thick are incompatible with any global flood as they are formed through evaporation rather than through the addition of fresh water.

14. Carbonates – The huge amount of CO2 in the atmosphere prior to being locked into carbonate rock would have made the planet resemble Venus. There would have been no life to drown.

Crispus - There was more oxygen in the atmosphere before the flood and the CO2 locked into sedimentary rock was from creatures that died and buried rapidly.

15. Microfossil deposits - Thick deposits of microfossils in limestone, diatomaceous chert, and chalk that could not settle to such a degree of thickness in the time allotted for any global flood.

Crispus - Why would anyone trying to disprove a global flood bring limestone and chalk into the discussion?? Limestone is composed largely of calcite, the primary source of which is commonly marine organisms. For microorganisms to be fossilized they have to be buried rapidly and removed from oxygen. They would have been compacted by layers of sedimentary rock above them and pressure from being under water.

16. Thick deposits of sand - Sand is the result of weathering and working of formally solid formations, requiring long long times to form and accumulate.

17. Aeolian sand deposits – Wind deposited sandstone is found above and below water deposited limestone. One example is the Cococino formation which is both overlain and overlies limestone.[/quote]

Crispus - It’s Coconino. See http://creationwiki....ited_underwater and
http://creationwiki....made_underwater

"Red sandstone interior of Lower Antelope Canyon, Arizona, worn smooth due to erosion by flash flooding over millions of years"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandstone

18. Overthrust formations – the time and pressure required to cause overthrust formations is far greater than can occur in any post-flood historic time.

Crispus - The statement assumes that time would be need when great pressure can form coal, limestone and overthrust formations in a short amount of time. Will he apply the same reasoning to coal? The time for vegetation to turn into coal would require sixty million years of no extreme climactic change.

19. Formation of geologic features such as mountains and valleys – How did something like the Himalaya Mountains form without anyone noticing all those earthquakes? How were valleys cut between such mountains in less than 4500 years?\

Crispus - Turkey is a long way from Nepal and Tibet and since only eight people were alive after the flood they wouldn’t have been in the area. Massive amounts of water rushing with tremendous force formed valleys as mountains were raised up.


20. Heat of formation – I can’t explain this topic any better than has already been done.
From http://www.talkorigi...-noahs-ark.html[/quote]
quote:
_________________________________

• If the geologic record was deposited in a year, then the events it records must also have occurred within a year. Some of these events release significant amounts of heat.

• Magma. The geologic record includes roughly 8 x 10E24 grams of lava flows and igneous intrusions. Assuming (conservatively) a specific heat of 0.15, this magma would release 5.4 x 10E27 joules while cooling 1100 degrees C. In addition, the heat of crystallization as the magma solidifies would release a great deal more heat.

• Limestone formation. There are roughly 5 x 10E23 grams of limestone in the earth's sediments [Poldervaart, 1955], and the formation of calcite releases about 11,290 joules/gram [Weast, 1974, p. D63]. If only 10% of the limestone were formed during the Flood, the 5.6 x 10E26 joules of heat released would be enough to boil the flood waters.

• Meteorite impacts. Erosion and crustal movements have erased an unknown number of impact craters on earth, but Creationists Whitcomb and DeYoung suggest that cratering to the extent seen on the Moon and Mercury occurred on earth during the year of Noah's Flood. The heat from just one of the largest lunar impacts released an estimated 3 x 10E26 joules; the same sized object falling to earth would release even more energy. [Fezer, pp. 45-46]

• Other. Other possibly significant heat sources are radioactive decay (some Creationists claim that radioactive decay rates were much higher during the Flood to account for consistently old radiometric dates); biological decay (think of the heat released in compost piles); and compression of sediments.
5.6 x 1026 joules is enough to heat the oceans to boiling. 3.7 x 10E27 joules will vaporize them completely. Since steam and air have a lower heat capacity than water, the steam released will quickly raise the temperature of the atmosphere over 1000 C. At these temperatures, much of the atmosphere would boil off the Earth.
Aside from losing its atmosphere, Earth can only get rid of heat by radiating it to space, and it can't radiate significantly more heat than it gets from the sun unless it is a great deal hotter than it is now. (It is very nearly at thermal equilibrium now.) If there weren't many millions of years to radiate the heat from the above processes, the earth would still be unlivably hot.

___________________________________

Crispus - See http://www.trueorigin.org/arkdefen.asp

21. River meanders – River meanders incised in rock can only be caused by gradual uplift, not through a year’s worth of soft sediment deposition.

22. Large and extensive river potholes – As this is one of Iceage’s, I will defer the explanation to him, although I wouldn’t mind his input on others he brought up as well.

23. Glacial weathering – glacial deposits and weathering such as U-shaped valleys require longer than 4500 years to form.

24. This was about independent dating correlations and a reference is given to another thread.

25. Batholith formation – Why isn’t the Sierra Nevada granitic batholith still hot as it would have taken several million years to cool?

Crispus - The statement is unproven.

26. Differential weathering – How could the Sierra Nevada and the Appalachians show such different weathering if each are the exact same age of only 4500 years old?

Crispus - I doubt they're the same age and the Sierra Nevada and Rockies were uplifted after the flood.

27. Banded iron formations and red beds – Banded iron formations can’t form in the presence of significant oxygen. Yet they were supposedly deposited in a flood which supposedly allowed animals to breathe both before and after.

Crispus - See Isaak’s Chemical Incompetence at http://www.trueorigin.org/arkdefen.asp

28. Water in confined aquifers – The chemistry of water may be measured as to its constituents, as any municipal water authority already knows. Under flood conditions, the water chemistry in a confined aquifer would have changed as lower elevation aquifers would contain more salt than higher aquifers as the flood waters diluted the salt content in the recharge zone. Not only is this behavior not shown by any known confined aquifer, but the age of such water according to the laws of physics is vastly older than any flood may have deposited.

29. Worldwide iridium layer – Although any worldwide flood evidence is lacking, there is a worldwide iridium layer at the K-T boundary where it exists. How could this iridium layer have been deposited among all those swirling waters in a flood?

Crispus - The present scientific explanation for the Chicxulub formation is wanting and iridium has been found in particles expelled from Volcanoes.

http://www.icr.org/article/453/

"Iridium Enrichment in Airborne Particles from Kilauea Volcano: January 1983," Science, Vol. 222, 9 December 1983, p. 1118

http://www.sciencema...t/222/4628/1118

30. Deformed structures in metamorphosed sediments – There are areas in metamorphic rock where pebbles and even fossils have been stretched and deformed in processes that would have taken several times any 4500 years since a global flood.

Crispus - The statement is unproven.

31. Compression of all fossil life into too short a time period – If all species represented by fossils, coal, and petroleum from throughout the geologic record lived simultaneously, they would have been standing on each other, an ecological impossibility.

Crispus - I’ve seen this type of statement before but haven't seen the data to back it up. There may be studies which lend credence to the idea but taphonomy and pressure are necessary for fossilization and coal and you can’t get carbon 14 out of 290 million year old coal.

32. Differential mineralization of fossils – Remains of buried humans in historic times show minimal mineralization. This increases overall with extinct mammals, then extinct dinosaurs, then extinct trilobites and ammonites.

33. Surface features buried throughout geologic column – Examples include: rain drops, river channels, wind-blown dunes, beaches, glacial deposits, burrows, in-place trees, soils, desiccation cracks, footprints.

Crispus - I haven’t researched most of these but trace fossils such as footprints would have to be filled in by sediment and hardened. In-place trees favor rapid burial and redepositation. No one is claiming that glacial deposits are the immediate result of the global flood but of the Ice Age which occurred afterwards. Let evolutionists and old earth creationists answer the questions I've asked about Lake Titicaca:

If it was the result of a glacier or flooding at the end of the last ice age what effect would this have had on the entire earth since the glacier would have reached 1,000 miles south of the equator? How was it able to reach a height of more than two miles before it deposited massive amounts of water? How was a slow moving glacier able to cross the Andes mountains south of Lake Titicaca which exceed 6,000 feet in height?

#2 Crispus

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Posted 16 March 2009 - 04:27 PM

34. Pollen sorting – Why is pollen sorted according to evolutionary principles instead of hydrodynamic principles in the geologic record?

Crispus - The statement is unproven and there are examples of pollen that has been found in geologic strata attributed to a different age on the evolutionary time scale. http://nwcreation.net/anomalies.html

Botanist Edred John Henry Corner said this about plant evolution:

"Much evidence can be adduced in favour of the theory of evolution - from biology, bio-geography and palaeontology, but I still think that, to the unprejudiced, the fossil record of plants is in favour of special creation. If, however, another explanation could be found for this hierarchy of classification, it would be the knell of the theory of evolution. Can you imagine how an orchid, a duckweed, and a palm have come from the same ancestry, and have we any evidence for this assumption? The evolutionist must be prepared with an answer, but I think that most would break down before an inquisition. Textbooks hoodwink. A series of more and more complicated plants is introduced - the alga, the fungus, the bryophyte, and so on, and examples are added eclectically in support of one or another theory - and that is held to be a presentation of evolution. If the world of plants consisted only of these few textbook types of standard botany, the idea of evolution might never have dawned, and the backgrounds of these textbooks are the temperate countries which, at best, are poor places to study world vegetation. The point, of course, is that there are thousands and thousands of living plants, predominantly tropical, which have never entered general botany, yet they are the bricks with which the taxonomist has built his temple of evolution, and where else have we to worship?"
(E.J.H. Corner 1961, from 'Evolution', p. 97, in "Contemporary Botanical Thought", Anna M. Macleod and L. S. Cobley (editors), Oliver and Boyd, for the Botanical Society of Edinburgh)

35. Inconsistent worldwide geologic formations – Any flood would have left a single layer of similar sediment worldwide, not the tremendous amount and variety of layers that exist in each of the thousands of boreholes and outcrops in geology.

Crispus - The statement is unproven and the person should clarify why there should be one single flood layer over all continents? Most sedimentary rock is the result of flooding but in any flood sedimentary rock would either be created from sea creatures or rock and soil would be redeposited. It seems he expects uniform results from a cataclysmic event. Why, if there was a global flood, would the whole earth be covered uniformly? Chalk, limestone, shale and diatomic earth are all the results of rapid burial of sea creatures so what type of sediment would make up the single flood layer? This doesn't take into account other factors. One would not expect that all areas of sedimentary rock were laid down at one time, even from a global flood. There would be sedimentary rock laid down and erosion caused by the uplift of mountains and by later floods especially from melting glaciers during the ice age. If a flood is powerful enough it can even erode bedrock.*

* (Flood Geomorphology by Victor R. Baker, R. Craig Kochel and Peter C. Patton, p. 88)

36. Existence of soil after flood – Soil is a delicate mixture of organic and inorganic materials. How could any soil exist after an environment that was supposedly turbulent enough to destroy all the earth’s crust?

37. Tectonic spreading rates – Observed tectonic spreading rates indicate that there is no evidence of any disturbance due to any global flood 4500 years ago.

38. Tar pits – If all petroleum was caused by some global flood, how can there be tar pits filled with land fossils that have not become coal or oil?

Crispus - I don't know that tar pits were caused by the global flood rather than the ice age but have read there are approx. 100,000 fossilized birds at La Brea tar pits. Obviously, this was a cataclysmic event since most birds can easily escape floods on a smaller scale.

39. Caverns – Caverns carved from dolomite such as exist in West Texas can’t form in as little as 4500 years.

Crispus - The statement is unproven and the poster is ether unaware of, or ignores, the dolomite problem which is explained in detail at http://earth.geology....01Arvidson.pdf

I saw a quote in the 2 volume set "Geology" that said something like decaying vegetable matter in ground water produces carbonic acid. Carbonic acid reacts with calcite in dolomite rocks which causes the dissolution of dolomite forming caves. I’ve read of underwater caves that were formed quickly in the Mediterranean and in Northeastern U.S. (maybe New York). Along these lines is a good article at http://creationwiki....and_Stalagmites

40. Oklo and other natural reactors – Such natural reactors could not have been formed a mere 4500 years ago unless the laws of physics involving radioactive decay are violated.

41. Multiple glaciations – There are at least four major separate evidences of glaciations in the geologic record separated by eons. How could all four occur during a flood while supposedly underwater?

Crispus - They didn’t. The burden of proof is on old earth creationists and evolutionists to show that there was more than one ice age not including the "little ice age."

42. Meteoric impacts – For the evidence of meteoric impacts to be buried under sediments indicate that such impacts all occurred in the span of one year. Such a bombardment would allow for no life due to a lack of sun.

43. Hydrocarbon formation – The amount of hydrocarbon deposits in the ground from organic causes represent a greater biomass than is possible to have formed within 4500 years.

44. Conglomerates within conglomerates within conglomerates within conglomerates – Conglomerates are made up of diverse weathered rock that is eroded then recemented. In order to have a 4th level conglomerate there needs to be four episodes of weathering and recementation of rocks which are often impossible to form and erode in 4500 years such as when some within the conglomerate matrix are igneous or metamorphic rock.

45. Change in physical properties of rock correlated with age and fossil content – The older the sedimentary rock under current scientific models, in most cases the greater its compaction. How would near-simultaneous deposition explain this observation?

Crispus - The poster correctly uses the phrase "near-simultaneous deposition" rather than "simultaneous deposition." It would be expected there would be greater compaction in the lower layers than those above them. With sedimentary layers piled on top of one another there would be compaction in either case but with a global flood material under hundreds, or thousands, of feet of water would significantly create the pressure needed to compact material such as coal. In either case one would expect to find anthracite coal under bituminous coal. In the evolutionary scenario one must assume that the same process of erosion which allegedly removed an incredible number of transitional fossils did not in any way effect layers of sedimentary rock (of which about 80% are marine sediments) as they were deposited on one another.

46. Delicate structures preserved in supposed turbulence – Delicate structures such as insect wings and feathers are preserved in rock. How could a turbulence that supposedly weathers miles of consolidated rock simultaneously preserve delicate structures?

Crispus - They were buried rapidly, removed from oxygen and protected from erosion. How could structures such as insect wings and feathers be preserved over hundreds of thousands of years or millions of years when they have to be buried quickly and removed from oxygen??? Delicate structures such as insect wings and feather would not be preserved if they weren’t trapped and the poster again misuses the phrase simultaneously. An example of this is the fossils at Solnhofen which include archaeopteryx, horse shoe crabs and dragon flies.

47. Coprolites – Coprolites, which are fossilized turds, are preserved throughout the fossil record. How does a flood have animals constantly crapping in the midst of a flood after they are exterminated?[/quote]

Crispus - This is one of the worst arguments I’ve seen. Animals defecate every day and in a catastrophe some would lose control of their bodily functions. Coprolites have been found in coal balls which clearly were formed rapidly and not over millions of years. Let the poster explain how the feces was fossilized over millions of years of sedimentary deposits and why this process doesn’t occur today.

48. Meteoric dust accumulation – Both ice cores and evaporates indicate meteoric dust accumulates at a roughly steady rate over time. How can this dust remain constant under contracted meteoric bombardment?

49. Desert varnish – Desert varnish is created by microorganisms in arid conditions over a period of hundreds of years. How could such varnish be created throughout the geologic record in flood conditions?

50. Multiple layers of fossil forests – How can a single flood explain multiple fossil forest layers such as can be seen at Joggins, Nova Scotia or Yellowstone?

Crispus - Transport and redeposition. How do peat bogs form over millions of years fossilizing plants and animals so they can be seen in coal without sufficient pressure?? How did new peat bogs form again on top of these coal seams producing additional coal seams? How did new peat bogs form on top of interbedded layers such as limestone?

51. Detailed layering – How could a global flood create thousands of layers seen in several geologic formations, each of which requires a different depositional environment?

52. Lack of any geologic evidence for a global flood – While there are dozens of categories representing millions of data points of evidence against Noah’s Flood, I know of no single piece of geologic evidence in favor of Noah’s Flood.

Crispus - The process of fossilization, mass burial graveyards, fossils in sedimentary layers, the Burgess Shale, Joggins cliffs, dinosaurs with translucent blood vessels and soft tissue, carbon 14 in coal, the problem with the advancing seas theory, trilobite fossils in Canada, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, Ohio and Arkansas, a fish fossilized giving birth, a fossil of a perch swallowing a herring, Whale fossils found miles inland, fossilized nautiloids in the Grand Canyon and fossils of marine creatures on mountains in spite of million years of erosion and uplift.

53. Observed genetic diversity – The genetic diversity in all animals indicate that there was no genetic bottleneck.

Crispus - The method to determine genetic bottlenecks is the polymer chain reaction (PCR) technique developed in 1987. It is dependent on the belief that mtdna is only inherited from the Mother and genetic recombination does not occur. Whether recombination can occur has been a subject of much debate in the last decade or so. After studying data from the mtdna of 452 people in different locations in the Pacific they came to this conclusion:

"We propose that the multiple occurrence of a rare mutation event in one isolated locality is highly improbable, and that recombination between different mtDNA types is a more likely explanation for our observation. If correct, this conclusion has important implications for the use of mtDNA in phylogenetic and evolutionary studies."
Evidence for Mitochondrial DNA Recombination in a Human Population of Island Melanesia

http://www.journals....ue/fulltext.pdf
Proceedings: Biological Sciences, Vol. 266, No. 1418 (Mar. 7, 1999), pp. 485-492)

There’s also a problem with the rate of mutations in mitochondrial DNA.

"Mitochondrial DNA appears to mutate much faster than expected, prompting new DNA forensics procedures and raising troubling questions about the dating of evolutionary events. ...Regardless of the cause, evolutionists are most concerned about the effect of a faster mutation rate. For example, researchers have calculated that "mitochondrial Eve"‑‑the woman whose mtDNA was ancestral to that in all living people‑‑lived 100,000 to 200,000 years ago in Africa. Using the new clock, she would be a mere 6000 years old."
(Ann Gibbons, “Calibrating the Mitochondrial Clock”, Science, Vol. 279, No. 5347, Jan 1998, pp. 28 – 29)

Gibbons studied the remains of Russian tsar Nicholas II; an abstract of Calibrating the Mitochondrial Clock can be read at http://www.sciencema.../5347/28?ck=nck

Tomas Lindahl of the London Research Institute is a leading critic of ancient dating and said the PCR technique is "notoriously contamination-sensitive" (Nature, October 21, 1993, p. 700). I read in a biology textbook published in 1986 that recombination does occur sometimes. This was a year before the PCR technique was implemented.

Two good articles on the topic are "The Demise of Mitochondrial DNA" at trueorigin.org and Descent of Man Theory: Disproved by Molecular Biology by Richard Deem. http://www.geocities...on/descent.html

Ann Gibbons wrote an article called "The mystery of humanity's missing mutations" for the January 1995 edition of Science magazine and is cited on that page. An abstract of a paper called Direct Evidence for Homologous Recombination in Mussel (Mytilus galloprovincialis) Mitochondrial DNA gives a good synopsis of the problems of mtDNA recombination and how it might affect currently theories.

http://mbe.oxfordjou...t/18/7/1168.pdf

54. Non-viable size of genetic population – A parent population of one or even seven pairs of animals is not genetically viable. Such inbreeding quickly causes fatal mutations.

Crispus - He destroyed the African Eve theory, the theory of evolution and the theory that all life came from one cell with one statement!!!! If a parent population of seven pairs of animals would quickly causes fatal mutations how do evolutionists explain all the animals that are alive on earth today without invoking divine intervention?????

55. Food requirements of animals – Some animals such as Koalas require very specific diets. How could these dietary requirements been provided, and who could keep up with such variable requirements on a ship?

Crispus - Koalas probably descended from a species on the ark. Genesis 6:19-20 says "You are to bring into the ark two of all living creatures, male and female, to keep them alive with you. Two of every kind of bird, of every kind of animal and of every kind of creature that moves along the ground will come to you to be kept alive." This is seen as a general command and the more specific command is found in Genesis 7:2 which says seven of every kind of clean animal, a male and its mate, and two of every kind of unclean animal, a male and its mate, and also seven of every kind of bird, male and female…" Leviticus 11:27 says Of all the animals that walk on all fours, those that walk on their paws are unclean for you.." Since Koalas walk on all fours and have paws they almost certainly descended from one of two pairs of animals on the ark.

If Koalas evolved it would have been quite fortunate for them that they were in a region full of eucalyptus trees when they developed the ability to detect the toxicity levels of phenolic and terpene compounds in the leaves and also have the ability to remove the toxic components from their bodies.

56. Mobility considerations – How did sloths or other slow-moving animals get to any ark and how did they migrate from any ark without a trace in the time allotted?

Crispus - They walked. Any traces of animal migration would not be there because it was almost 5,000 years ago. I never understand this argument either and when the question is asked no information is given as to what type of traces should be expected and examples of animal migration from approximately 4,500 years ago. Many creatures that exist today did not exist at that time and descended from animals on the ark.

57. Symbiotic relationships – Several species have a sole source of nutrition. How did these creatures exist during or after a global flood?

Crispus - The question ignores what creationists teach; that many animals today descended from those on the ark nor does the poster attempt to explain what the animals were, what their sole source of food is, how they happened to evolved in the right location where that food was or what their food source was before they evolved to what they are now.

58. Parasites – Parasites require hosts in order to survive. Were all creatures on any ark hosts and how did they survive such parasitism?

Crispus - There probably weren’t any creatures that were hosting parasites or the parasites were dormant. I haven’t thought about this much but suspect there are zoos which have gone years at a time without any problems with parasites.

59. Diseases – Diseases that exist today require hosts to survive. How did all the infected animals survive simultaneously being hosts to every disease currently around?

Crispus - Again he presupposes that these animals were infected and had diseases. If an omniscient and omnipotent Creation can draw thousands of creatures to a certain location He can surely protect them from diseases.

60. Social Insects – one pair of ants, bees or termites do not constitute a viable unit for survival.

Crispus - Insects aren't mentioned in Genesis 7 and wouldn't be considered unclean animals. Again, if evolution is true, how did species of ants, bees and termites which exist today evolve from two common ancestors even if one pair of them doesn't constitute a viable unit for survival???

61. Short-lived life forms – Mayflies only live a few days. How could they reproduce in a barge in a non-riparian environment?

Crispus - Again the assumption is that they existed at the time and are not a result of post flood speciation or couldn't be preserved in certain conditions under the earth during a flood.

62. Life forms older than flood – The oldest bristlecone pines are 5700 years old, they can’t survive underwater for any appreciable amount of time.

Crispus - According to Wikipedia an ancient bristle Pine in the White Mountains of California is 4,700 years old and is the oldest single living organism though plants that form clonal colonies may be older. Interestingly they give the date when Gilgamesh lived as 4,700 years ago but that is subject to debate. See number 66 - Tree Rings.

63. Vegetation – Neither most vegetation nor their seeds can survive under salt water. Nor can such vegetation root and thrive in salt encrusted ‘soil’ (which also largely didn’t exist immediately after any flood).

Crispus - Evolutionists try to dispute the story of the flood and claim that the salinity levels haven’t changed drastically. If this is the case they are left to explain the advancing seas which deposited many marine fossils and layers of limestone all over the world.

64. Food requirements subsequent to a flood - If a flood wiped out all but a pair of animals and plants, there would be insufficient food for any survivors.

Crispus - Genesis does not say anything about a pair of plants.

65. Aquatic life - There are fresh water fish, salt water fish, and brackish fish, how could all survive in the same environment?

66. Tree ring data – Rings on currently living trees that indicate they are older than 4500 years do not indicate that they were drowned and died at the time of any proposed global flood.

Crispus - Dating trees from their rings depends on uniformitarianism. The idea that growth rings in tree always give an accurate age of Bristle Pine trees has been questioned by the work of Walter Lammerts (1).

http://www.apologeti...g/articles/2019

http://creationwiki....endrochronology

Lammerts, Walter E. (1983), “Are the Bristlecone Pine Trees Really So Old?,” Creation Research Society Quarterly, 20:108-115, September. There's an abstract of that paper at http://www.creationr...ts/sum20_2.html

See also Evidence for multiple ring growth per year in Bristlecone Pines by Mark Matthews
http://creation.com/...20_3_95-103.pdf

The growth rate of tree rings can be affected by disturbances such as debris flows, floods, avalanches and rockfalls.

"Several assumptions underlie the production of quantitative dendroclimatic reconstructions. First, the physical and biological processes which link today's environment with today's variations in tree growth must have been in operation in the past. This is the principle of uniformitarianism. Second, the climate conditions which produce anomalies in tree-growth patterns in the past must have their analogue during the calibration period. Third, climate is continuous over areas adjacent to the domain of the tree-ring network, enabling the development of a statistical transfer function relating growth in the network to climate variability inside and outside of it. Finally, it is assumed that the systematic relationship between climate as a limiting factor and the biological response can be approximated as a linear mathematical expression. Fritts (1976) provides a more exhaustive review of the assumptions involved in the use of dendroclimatology."

Dendroclimatology - http://www.global-cl...rg.uk/3-3-3.php .

See also Tree rings, carbon dioxide, and climatic change - http://www.pnas.org/...6/8350.abstract

67. Coral clocks – Annual coral growth is correlated to the number of days per year in the deep past. Such clocks indicate a slowing of Earth’s rotation consistent with physics and not a 4500 year maximum age of coral reefs.

#3 Crispus

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Posted 16 March 2009 - 04:41 PM

68. Population growth subsequent to any flood – The population growth of humans necessary to produce pyramids, great walls, and great empires is insufficient to have a bottleneck of under a dozen individuals 4500 years ago. The population growth of prey species would be insufficient to support a 90-10 prey-predator ratio immediately after any devastating flood.

69. Coccolithophores – How could these creatures that bloom, oversaturate their environment and then die off have created so many and such thick deposits in the geologic record in so little time during a turbulent flood? (credit to Lithodid-Man)

Crispus - They were buried quickly under other sediment and compacted forming limestone. Coquina is a form of limestone that contains fossilized shells and marble was formed from the metamorphism of limestone. Limestone comes from coccolithophores which would normally decay and it took great pressure to turn them into rock.

70. Interdependent ecosystems – How were interdependent ecosystems where life requires a complex web of relationships preserved during and after a global flood?

Crispus - Not all of them were. This is probably very technical but again I have to consider this in light of the theory of evolution. How did interdependent ecosystems requiring a complex web of relationships form in the first place and how did the first alleged cell or protocells survive without any other life forms??

71. Food pyramid – how could the predation relationship be preserved with only a pair of creatures at the bottom of the chain?

Crispus - I think all creatures would have to have eaten plant life for a while.

72. Difference between clean/unclean genome – Why do the seven pairs of clean animals not show any greater genetic diversity than the single pairs of unclean animals?

Crispus - Interesting question and I wish he provided some data and further explanation.

73. Aquatic fossils – Why are fossils from shallow marine environments far more common than all others if there was more land than water prior to any global flood?

Crispus - I think plant fossils are the most common and marine creatures which are fossilized were done so rapidly and in layers which show compressive stress.

74. Lack of any biologic evidence for a global flood – While there are dozens of categories representing millions of data points of evidence against Noah’s Flood, I know of no single piece of biologic evidence in favor of Noah’s Flood.

Crispus - If the biological evidence depends on mitochondrial DNA and the PCR technique it’s been shown to be suspect.

75. Loading the ark – Animals and plants would have to enter the Ark in pairs within the space of a few seconds apart.[/quote]

Crispus - Again, there were no plants or record of them on the Ark. Why did they have to enter the ark a few seconds apart?

76. Amount of space – The amount of space provided by the Ark would not come near to enough to hold all species, genus, or even families observed today.

Crispus - He’s correct but no one is claiming that all the species observed today existed at that time or that none of those that existed then are now extinct. This is a strawman and those who don't believe in a global flood should drop this argument and the one that falsely supposes all mountains would be the same height, or almost as high, today as they were at the time of the global flood.

77. Construction – The construction of an object the supposed size of the ark using the tools available at the time is far greater than the size of the construction crew within the time allotted.

Crispus - First the bible doesn’t say specifically how many people built the ark or if they punched a time clock. Noah’s sons may have helped build it and possibly all the passengers on the ark. Secondly, one hundred years would certainly be enough time to build it.

78. Materials – The Ark was supposedly constructed of ‘gopherwood’ which shows no evidence of having ever existed. Also, wood as a sole construction material would not be able to withstand the stresses on any ship and would likely capsize at the first opportunity.

Crispus - The problem with this statement is the poster hasn’t considered that languages change over centuries and Genesis was probably the first book in the bible to be written. Secondly, words or their meanings have a greater chance of changing with the more time that goes by. The word translated as gopher in the KJV is go'·fer. If the Hebrews took the story from the Babylonians in the sixth century B.C. it is much more likely that there wouldn’t be the debate about the meaning of the word there is today since the Septuagint was first translated in the third century B.C. The Septuagint translates it as "squared beams." For more on gopher wood go to http://www.christian...gopherwood.html

His statement that wood would not be able to withstand the stresses on any ship is completely unproven and seems to rely on the ship building techniques of the eighteenth and nineteenth century. See part 3 of Noah's Ark - Thinking Outside The Box

79. Ventilation – Animals require air to survive. A single window would provide insufficient ventilation for the body heat and fresh air produced by wall-to-wall biomass.

Crispus - The ventilation system on the ark isn't described in detail in Genesis. In the KJV Gen. 6:16 says "A window shalt thou make to the ark, and in a cubit shalt thou finish it above..." and the NIV says "Make a roof for it and finish the ark to within 18 inches of the top..."

80. Leakage – A wooden ship of this size would flex due to stress to such a degree that no tar type sealant would work to prevent leakage and eventual sinking within a few days.

Crispus - The ark was built for stability and did survive the deluge. In 2003 nine members of the Korea Research Institute of Ships and Engineering published a paper called Safety Investigation of Noah’s Ark in a Seaway. Their conclusion was that the ark could have navigated seas with waves higher than 30 meters. As for the statement "no tar type sealant would work to prevent leakage and eventual sinking within a few days" I doubt that is true. People have used things found in nature in building and manufacturing long before the industrial revolution and people still use natural substances today in different medicines.

81. Waste removal – The crew of the Ark would be insufficient to clear the ship of body waste. The stinking hulk would probably kill all life aboard before a few months had past.

Crispus - The statement is unproven and it seems the person assumed that all species of animals alive today would have been on the ark and doesn't take into account hibernation which was probably frequent on the ark.

82. Humidity – Many animals and plants, particularly those adapted to deserts, would quickly die in an environment of 100% humidity.

Crispus - Again the poster doesn’t understand that plants were not on the ark except for food. Some deserts have revealed fossils showing they were once under water and it is unlikely that deserts existed before the flood.

83. Food storage – How could Noah preserve food in 100% humidity among all those microorganisms, mold, and disease causing agents without modern refrigeration for nearly a year?

Addendum - Problems with ‘kinds’ – Many of the above objections are limited through the introduction of the undefined concept of ‘kinds.’ The ‘kinds’ argument fails however because to create the present diversity of life, biologic forms would have to undergo superhyperfragalisticmicromacro evolution, an absurd concept with no evidence and completely void of common sense such as demanding that housecats give birth to lions. It also supposedly is designed to show that evolution does not occur because of greater past evolution, a clear logical contradiction of unbelievable magnitude.[/quote]

Crispus - If he is right what does that say about the punctuated equlibrium; an absurd concept with no evidence and completely void of common sense?

84. Ancient nature of most civilizations – Most civilizations have precursors that indicate a clear evolution of culture and technology through time without any bottleneck. The time allotted for such cultural development is most likely insufficient under any Noah Flood scenario.

Crispus - There are many recorded cases where there are breaks in culture because of the flood, such as the Sumerians, and the statement "most civilizations" is unproven. I discussed this on another thread (click here). Egyptian chronology is not reliable but is still viewed as the standard for dating by many archaeologists and historians.

http://evolution-fac...V3/3evlch35.htm

http://www.specialty...othic_star.html

A couple of other notable quotes:

"The extremely high dates for the beginning of the dynasties current in some histories are inherited from an older generation of Egyptologists; and are based and are based upon the chronology of Manetho, a late, careless, and uncritical compilation, the dynastic totals of which can be proven wrong from the contemporary monuments in the vast majority of cases, where such monuments have survived. Its dynastic totals are so absurdly high throughout, that they are not worthy of a moment's credence, being often nearly or quite double the maximum drawn from contemporary monuments, and they will not stand the slightest careful criticism. Their accuracy is now maintained only by a small and constantly decreasing number of modern scholars."
(James H. Breasted. History of Ancient Egyptians, 1927, p. 26)

"The Egyptian Chronicles carved in stone at Abydos and the ancient papyrus now housed in Turin both echo what we find in the Jewish Midrash. Why are the names of these rulers so dissimilar? The confusion comes from the fact that the ancient kings of Egypt had as many as five names."
(The Riddle of the Exodus by James D. Long, pp. 77-78)


85. Oetzi – Oetzi provides an example of a ‘pre-flood’ mummified individual dated and correlated by multiple methods. Where is the water damage?

Crispus - This depends on the accuracy of the carbon dating results.

86. No human activity in deeper layers – There are no indications of human activity, or even humans, in any geologic layers prior to the Pleistocene.

87. Language variation – Because languages diverge by a set amount over time, and these have been reasoned to have diverged considerably prior to Noah’s Flood, linguistics represents another element of evidence against Noah’s Flood.[/quote]

Crispus - When science can disprove the existence of almighty God then we can discount Genesis 11:5-9. That will never happen. I've also read that some linguists and scholars believe the Chinese language descended from the Akkadians.

88. Egyptian history – Why did the Egyptians not mention a flood during their monument building period?[/quote]

Crispus - I don’t know why it would be expected that they mentioned it specifically during their monumental building period or that all historical records would still exist today, but the Egyptians do have a flood legend. Plato referred to an Egyptian flood legend in Timaeus. He wrote that the gods purified the earth by a great flood and only a few shepherds escaped by climbing a mountain. The account in the Egyptian documents says Ra exterminated almost all of mankind by a deluge of blood because of their rebellion but afterward swore never to do it again. (Source - International Standard Bible Encyclopedia). Josephus also mentioned the Egyptian flood account:

"Now all the writers of barbarian histories make mention of this flood, and of this ark; among whom is Berosus the Chaldean. For when he is describing the circumstances of the flood, he goes on thus: "It is said there is still some part of this ship in Armenia, at the mountain of the Cordyaeans; and that some people carry off pieces of the bitumen, which they take away, and use chiefly as amulets for the averting of mischiefs." Hieronymus the Egyptian also, who wrote the Phoenician Antiquities, and Mnaseas, and a great many more, make mention of the same."
(Antiquities of the Jews, Book 1, Chapter 3, section 6)

89. Sargon and the Akkadian Empire – How could Sargon conquer Sumeria and create the Akkadian Empire either underwater or immediately after a global flood with no troops?

Crispus - He didn’t because this was after the flood. According to wikipedia Sargon of Akkadia ruled from 2333 -2279 B.C. Genesis 10:10-12 says the first centers of Nimrod’s kingdom were Babylon, Erech, Akkad and Calneh, in Shinar and from there he went to Assyria, where he built Nineveh, Rehoboth Ir, Calah and Resen. There are different theories to identify Nimrod in other civilizations and one theory is Nimrod was Sargon. Another theory is that Nimrod was the inspiration for the Gilgamesh written centuries after the flood. The author makes an interesting argument although I question his translation of Genesis 10:9

http://www.ancientdays.net/nimrod.htm

90. Mohenjo Daro – Why does this ‘pre-flood’ city show no evidence of a global flood?

Crispus - They weren’t. He assumes the dating of these civilizations is correct. According to wikipedia "Mohenjo Daro was one of the world’s first cities and contemporaneous with ancient Egyptian and Mesopotamian civilizations." This is exactly what we should expect if there was a global flood and the survivors were told to repopulate the earth. This is not what would be expected from evolution. The date that historians give for Mohenjo Daro is almost certainly based on the faulty Egyptian chronology.

91. Chinese civilization – Why were the Chinese building canals during a flood?

Crispus - They weren’t. Again, the assumption is that the Chinese chronology is correct. There are some Chinese who believe they descended from Noah though there is debate whether or not it was through Shem, Ham or Japheth.

92. Differential technology level between cultures – If all cultures started at the same level of technological skill 4500 years ago how could most cultures have advanced or deteriorated so quickly relative to each other?

Crispus - This seems like a good question but at closer examination it isn’t. The Roman Empire conquered other countries and brought technology to those places. Three hundred years ago the British Empire was much more advanced than many tribes in Africa, South America and the Pacific islands.

93. Independent primary food sources between cultures – As cited in the book Guns, Germs, and Steel by Jared Diamond different cultures depended upon different food sources. For example the Aztecs had corn, the Incas had potatoes, the Egyptians had wheat, and the Chinese had rice. If these cultures and their foodstuffs were all in contact 4500 years ago, why did they not show a greater diversity in food sources such as we have today?

Crispus - The Aztecs lived in modern day Mexico, the Incas lived in South America, the Chinese in Far East Asia and the Egyptians in the middle East. Should we expect the Incas and Aztecs to cross the land bridge at the Bering straits, the Egyptians to travel a great distance then they all meet up in China??? They ate those foods because they grew in the area where they lived! Genesis 11:8-9 says "So the LORD scattered them from there over all the earth, and they stopped building the city. That is why it was called Babel - because there the LORD confused the language of the whole world. From there the LORD scattered them over the face of the whole earth."

94. Inconsistency of flood myths – The prevalence of flood myths among diverse cultures is often cited as evidence for Noah’s Flood. However, the vast difference in the details of nearly each culture’s flood myth actually provides evidence against a single global event.

Crispus - This is one of the poorer arguments. As people spread across the earth changes occur in each culture including religion and new heroes are born. With this it would be expected that different civilizations would place their forefathers and deities in the stories since these were more familiar to them and held more meaning.

95. Use of parables in the Bible – If Jesus explicitly taught in parables why do some believe that can’t ever be applied to the OT as well? Are they better informed about god’s intentions than Jesus?

Crispus - They could be parables but one has to examine context and have some understanding of biblical hermeneutics. To claim that the flood of Genesis is a parable is completely without support.

96. Why use a flood? – Instead of wiping out all animals and children along with ‘his’ creation, why didn’t god just punish the unrighteous?

Crispus - See When Skeptics Ask and what Norman Geisler says about why God didn’t spare children when the Israelites destroyed other cities; he says it better than I can. The idea is that some of the children would have grown up to be as bad or worse than the Fathers and continued sinning. 1 Peter 3:20 says "God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built." It isn’t his will that any should perish.

97. Why punish those who use their god-created minds - Why would a just god reward those who hate science and show it by attacking it via the literal interpretation of Noah’s story and punish those who use science to save lives?

Crispus - There's nothing from Genesis 6 through Genesis 9 to suggest that the story of Noah and the flood are figurative or a parable. How do those who believe in a literal flood, reject the theories of evolution and abiogenesis somehow hate science? Using that reasoning, given the history of those theories and the many, many fallacies behind them I could make the same assertion of those who reject creation. Some of us have examined evidence for a global flood and found there is a lot of it. Many creationists who believe in the bible have contributed to science and some have saved lives.

98. No plausible mechanism to explain where water came from – Overhead ‘vapor canopies’ and underground ‘fountains’ violate the most basic principles of physics. There is no explanation of where the water came from.[/quote]

Crispus - I haven’t examined the models behind a vapor canopy or crystallized water but there is a problem with the transgression/regression theory when it comes to the polar caps. If oceans advanced into the interior of the continents and glaciers advanced it raises the question of how fresh water exists today in the polar caps and our lakes and rivers. There are hydrothermal vents on the floor of the Pacific, Atlantic, Indian and Arctic oceans. A water reservoir deep beneath the earth was discovered beneath eastern Asia and has at least the volume of the Arctic ocean. The water is locked in moisture-containing rocks between 400 and 800 miles beneath the earth's surface.

99. No plausible mechanism to explain where water went – No remotely valid or rational explanation has been propounded to explain where such flood waters retreated to.

Crispus - Besides additions to rivers, streams, lakes and the polar caps the water would increase in the ocean. Scientists know that the ocean basins have not always been at the same level and explain the rise of sea level and flooding of the continents due to volcanic activity. This is clear by guyots which show erosion from waves and by land bridges linking land masses which are now separate. There were land bridges connecting Australia to New Guinea and Tasmania, one in the Bering Straits and Doggerland which connected Great Britain to Europe. There is a submerged land bridge, called Adam's bridge, composed of limestone shoals which used to connect India and Sri Lanka.

100. Dubious motives of many who seek to conflate religion and science – Many of the well-known originators and staunch defenders of the war against science are proven liars and even convicted criminals, usually for using religion to line their pockets. Why should any thinking and/or moral person accept their rants as gospel?

Crispus - The theories of evolution and abiogenesis are not scientific and more and more people have learned of the fallacies of both which we were not taught in school. This is not a war against science but a war against the religion of neo-Darwinism. Why should any rational thinking person accept the theory of abiogenesis which has been proven to be false to the point that some scientists have appealed to panspermia? Why didn't they teach us in public schools that life from a primordial soup is impossible and why didn't they tell us all the facts about Java man and KNM ER 1470? If the person who asked these questions is willing to apply the same standard then he should be willing to discuss Piltdown man, Nebraska man, Haeckel's embryo's among other things.

#4 assist24

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Posted 16 March 2009 - 07:01 PM

Crispus - The poster uses the phrase “intentionally misapplied” because when rocks that are known to be young have been dated with the potassium argon method they give dates that are way off. It cannot be observed that the dates given for rocks believed to be millions or billions of years old are close to the actual ages. I don’t trust the results of radiometric dating. Carbon dating results depends on factors like a constant rate of decay and no changes in the atmosphere that would affect the C14/C12 ratios.


Sorry, but that bolded part is flat out wrong. Radiocarbon researchers have been aware for years that the atmospheric C14/C12 ratio has varied at times in the past due to things like cosmic ray level from solar activity, climate change that disrupts the carbon flow between the ocean / organic matter into the atmosphere, etc. To correct for this, radiocarbon dating has been subjected to rigorous multiple independent calibration methods

As it turns out, there are many naturally occurring phenomena that leave distinct yearly markers - tree rings, ice core samples from glaciers, ocean sediment core samples, varve core samples from freshwater lakes, and speleothems (cave deposits) to name just some. The overall procedure is simple. Physically count the tree rings or layers, take a sample of organic material from each layer, measure the isotopic C14/C12 ratios, and plot it against the yearly count. This gives a correction factor to allow for more accurate dating. In addition, up to around 3000 YBP the markers can also be correlated with historically recorded events, like volcanic eruptions that leave distinctive chemical signatures. This gives strong positive evidence that the yearly markers really are yearly, at least as far back as that.

One way to calibrate is by lake varves. A varve is a seasonal layer put down in a lake due to biological activity (pollen, etc.) that can be accurately counted to give a yearly date. Samples of dead biological material (twigs, leaves) that rest in the layers can be accurately dated by layer count. C14 readings on the same material are then taken and a calibration curve can be drawn. This has been done for many different varve sources. The most famous is lake Suigetsu in Japan, with an annual varve count going back over 29,000 YBP

http://www.calpal.de...uigetsu2000.gif

Another way to calibrate is by dendrochronology – tree ring counting. Tree rings are seasonal growths, and by matching overlapping tree ring patterns dates can be accurately measured back to 11,000 YBP. C14 readings on the same tree samples are then taken and a calibration curve can be drawn. Many forests and many different species of trees have been subject to dendrochronology studies. Oak trees from the Black Forest in Germany have extended the dates back over 11,800 YBP.

http://www.calpal.de...intcal_1998.gif

A third way to calibrate is by ice core samples. Ice cores show regular seasonal patterns that can be counted to show yearly dates. Samples of dead biological material that rest in the core layers can be accurately dated by layer count. C14 readings on the same material are then taken and a calibration curve can be drawn. Ice core samples from glaciers in Greenland have extended dates back over 50,000 YBP

http://www.calpal.de...cariaco2004.gif

A fourth way to calibrate is by ocean sediment core samples. Core samples from bays show regular seasonal patterns that can be counted to show yearly dates. Samples of dead biological material (plankton) that rest in the core layers can be accurately dated by layer count. C14 readings on the same material are then taken and a calibration curve can be drawn. Sediment core samples from the Cariaco basin in Brazil also have dates back over 50,000 YBP

http://www.calpal.de...cariaco2004.gif

A fifth way to calibrate is by counting speleothems – yearly growth indicators on stalactites in caves.. Again, samples of dead biological material that rest in the layers can be accurately dated by layer count and plotted.

Put them all together and plot them to get this

Posted Image

Source and legend from CalPal - University of Cologne Radiocarbon Calibration Program Package

Two things should jump out at you immediately

1. What happens to the curves at 4500 years ago? Absolutely nothing. They all keep chugging merrily along and none of them show any signs of a major perturbating event.

2. All of the independently derived curves overlap almost exactly, well within measurement error tolerances.

It’s #2 that really needs explaining. Many folks have offered explanations as to why each separate curve is wrong to discredit the dating results - trees grow 2-5 extra rings per year, 10 multiple varve layers are sometimes laid down in some years, etc. But what no one has tried to explain is why all the curves cross-correlate so precisely.

In other words, if all of the curves are wrong, why are they all wrong in exactly the same way?

#5 Crispus

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Posted 17 March 2009 - 06:37 AM

Sorry, but that bolded part is flat out wrong.  Radiocarbon researchers have been aware for years that the atmospheric C14/C12 ratio has varied at times in the past due to things like cosmic ray level from solar activity, climate change that disrupts the carbon flow between the ocean / organic matter into the atmosphere, etc.  To correct for this, radiocarbon dating has been subjected to rigorous multiple independent calibration methods 

As it turns out, there are many naturally occurring phenomena that leave distinct yearly markers -  tree rings, ice core samples from glaciers, ocean sediment core samples, varve core samples from freshwater lakes, and speleothems (cave deposits) to name just some. The overall procedure is simple.  Physically count the tree rings or layers, take a sample of organic material from each layer, measure the isotopic C14/C12 ratios, and plot it against the yearly count.  This gives a correction factor to allow for more accurate dating.


There have been many examples where carbon dating has been way off such as living creatures that are dated as being thousands of year old. The belief that dating from tree rings and ice core samples are always accurate depends on uniformitarianism. I wonder if evolutionary scientists have ever started with the premise that the global flood may have happened and based the variations in C14/C12 ratios on that. Do they always base the variations in C14/C12 ratios on a uniformitarian view and the presupposition that evolution happened?

One way to calibrate is by lake varves. A varve is a seasonal layer put down in a lake due to biological activity (pollen, etc.) that can be accurately counted to give a yearly date. Samples of dead biological material (twigs, leaves) that rest in the layers can be accurately dated by layer count. C14 readings on the same material are then taken and a calibration curve can be drawn. This has been done for many different varve sources. The most famous is lake Suigetsu in Japan, with an annual varve count going back over 29,000 YBP


How could varves have been created over 20 million years with similar climactic conditions every year, or almost every year, without any droughts, earthquakes, hurricanes etc. (erosion) that would have dramatically affected sedimentary layers. How was a fish fossilized while swallowing another fish unless it was buried rapidly?

Oak trees from the Black Forest in Germany have extended the dates back over 11,800 YBP.


I haven't read about those results but have read that a spruce in Norway was dated at more than 9,000 years though it wasn't the tree itself but the root system. What is the average lifespan of an oak tree? If it's hundreds of years then how is it those oak trees lived to be more than 11,800 years old?

A third way to calibrate is by ice core samples. Ice cores show regular seasonal patterns that can be counted to show yearly dates.


Again, this depends on uniformitarian and that were regular seasonal patterns in the first place. If there was more than on ice age would it have affected the regular seasonal patterns??

Samples of dead biological material that rest in the core layers can be accurately dated by layer count. C14 readings on the same material are then taken and a calibration curve can be drawn. Ice core samples from glaciers in Greenland have extended dates back over 50,000 YBP


If you can please give me a link to a paper or article which explains in detail the type of dead biological material found in the ice core layers. I would like to know about the type of biological material and how it was deposited in ice core layers.

A fourth way to calibrate is by ocean sediment core samples. Core samples from bays show regular seasonal patterns that can be counted to show yearly dates. Samples of dead biological material (plankton) that rest in the core layers can be accurately dated by layer count.

Again, for these to be accurate scientists have to account for erosions and it depends on the uniformitarian view.

C14 readings on the same material are then taken and a calibration curve can be drawn. Sediment core samples from the Cariaco basin in Brazil also  have dates back over 50,000 YBP


The Cariaco basin is off the coast of Venezuela. Are there any climatic factors which could have effected the sediment layers such as hurricanes, global warming, tsunamis, volcanic activity and changes in oxygen levels?

A fifth way to calibrate is by counting speleothems – yearly growth indicators on stalactites in caves.. Again,  samples of dead biological material that rest in the layers can be accurately dated by layer count and plotted.


This seems to depend on uniformitarianism and the belief that stalactites can't be formed in a short period of time.

Two things should jump out at you immediately

1. What happens to the curves at 4500 years ago? Absolutely nothing. They all keep chugging merrily along and none of them show any signs of a major perturbating event.

2. All of the independently derived curves overlap almost exactly, well within measurement error tolerances.


What continues to jump out at me is the need for no changes in climate to have effected the results of the dating methods.

It’s #2 that really needs explaining.  Many folks have offered explanations as to why each separate curve is wrong to discredit the dating results - trees grow 2-5 extra rings per year, 10 multiple varve layers are sometimes laid down in some years, etc. But what no one has tried to explain is why all the curves cross-correlate so precisely.


Hopefully someone who is more knowledgable about this will give their opinion but, again, the results depends on the belief that nothing effected core rings or sedimentary layers. If one of the methods is questionable then it raises questions about the

So, I would like to know how a fish was fossilized swallowing another fish in the Green River formation if it wasn't fossilized by rapid burial?

#6 ikester7579

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Posted 15 April 2009 - 08:44 AM

This is a list of 100 supposed categories of evidence taken from a thread which is now closed on evcforum. Many of you here are more knowledgeable about geology and biology and more familiar with the arguments against a global flood. So I thought I'd post it here and will provide answers for some of them.

1. Angular unconformities – Angular unconformities are where sediments are laid down in layers, then tilted and eroded, then new sediments are deposited on top. How does a global flood simultaneously deposit, tilt, and erode in the same exact place?

Crispus - Obviously this didn’t happen simultaneously. Hills and rock formations would have settled and been compacted during the flood due to the pressure of being under water. When mountains and other geological structures were raised up some rock formations were tilted and as waves of water went over them some earth would have been eroded and more earth from other sources would have been deposited by waves moving across the tops of the formations.

On creationwiki.org there is a response to an article about the Grand Canyon on talk origins which mentions angular unconformities.

http://creationwiki....ng_Flood_waters

2. Radiometric dating – All common forms of radiometric dating, including C14, K-Ar, Ar-Ar, Rb-Sr, Th-Pb, U-Pb, and fission track. The dates derived from these diverse methods, when properly interpreted rather than intentionally misapplied, show that all but the very most recent deposits in the geologic column is vastly older than any postulated flood.

Crispus - The poster uses the phrase “intentionally misapplied” because when rocks that are known to be young have been dated with the potassium argon method they give dates that are way off. It cannot be observed that the dates given for rocks believed to be millions or billions of years old are close to the actual ages. I don’t trust the results of radiometric dating. Carbon dating results depends on factors like a constant rate of decay and no changes in the atmosphere that would affect the C14/C12 ratios. See The Problem with Carbon 14 and other dating methods

There is a good summary of the problem in a paper called Radiocarbon: Ages in Error from the Anthropological Journal of Canada Limitations and Usefulness of Rio Carbon Dating (see Problems With Radiocarbon Dating)

In the late 1990’s samples of volcanic rock from New Zealand were sent to laboratories to be dated using the potassium-argon method. The oldest sample was about fifty years old and the rocks were dated from hundreds of thousands of years old to more than two million years old. Samples from a lave dome on Mt. St. Helen were dated between .35-2.8 million years using the potassium-argon method. Hualalai basalt from Hawaii known to have been formed from 1800-1801 was dated at about 1.6 million years old. There are other examples like basalt from Mt. Etna that was formed in 1792 and dated at 350,000 years old. Then there’s KNM-ER 1470, a modern looking skull, found by Richard Leakey in 1972. It was originally dated at 2.9 million years and eventually at 1.9 million years.

On talk origins they try to explain the dinosaur that Mary Schweitzer found by interviewing her colleague who said "No cells have been found in any dinosaurs, but the remnants of red blood cells have been hypothesized on the basis of heme, a kind of iron produced biologically." Besides iron heme contains oxygen, hydrogen, nitrogen, and carbon. I would like for scientists to carbon date the heme and soft tissue in that fossilized dinosaur. There are as many links as you probably would ever want on radiometric dating at http://nwcreation.ne...atinglinks.html

3. Fossil Sorting – The sorting of fossils in the geologic record is consistent with evolution and geology across all formations worldwide. There are basically no fossils of dinosaurs found with modern mammals, even when such dinosaurs could fly. There are no flowering plants in the Cambrian, no grasses, no mammals, and no birds. The overall sorting does not show any evidence consistent with a flood or settling in water.

Crispus - Fossils are a result of rapid burial and removal from oxygen. The record indicates mass extinction which evolutionary scientists try to attribute to several extinction events. One wouldn't expect flowering plants in the Cambrian since the latter were sea creatures unless they were forced into an area where they were buried together. Two things to be considered are ecological and biogeographic zonation. Secondly, if many transitional fossils have been lost due to erosion over hundreds of millions of years and more creatures have been fossilized due to catastrophic conditions I’m surprised there haven’t been more fossils of creatures from a later era discovered with those of an earlier era.







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