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#121 the totton linnet

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Posted 30 December 2009 - 07:00 AM

God does not run the world like a matrix. And the Bible has to be taken as a whole for truth. There are situations in the Bible where certain things apply, but not in every situation. I can take, if I wanted, and make a very good argument for OSAS-predestination, by hand picking several verses while ignoring others that contradict them. I debated this subject for almost 4 years. I have been on both sides of the issue. To find truth I had to step out of the box of belief and look at both sides with an independent view. Then allow the word to guide me towards which one was true. Not denomination, not what people were saying, just the Word.

Once I found it, it all became very clear.

Why did I go so far for so long to find truth? Because predestination is a salvation issue. To be wrong on this issue could mean grave consequences. And with all the good arguments out there for both sides, I figured the only way I could truly find truth was to go it alone and allow the Word to guide me.

Which opened some other truths to me about what was going on. Christians today adhere to much to denominational beliefs. No denomination can be 100% correct. Even the Bible says to check out all doctrine to make sure it's sound. It's not to say that if you find something wrong you should leave. But to know right from wrong on the issues, to not believe in what the Word does not support in every situation. To be willing to search out every situation before you commit. But never commit fully and be open to correction.

God's Word is a very complex book, when you get in-depth into studying it. Very few verses apply to every situation. If there is even one verse that contradicts, you have to ask yourself why. Then research to find out why. Then ask God to show you why. Then be willing to wait on the answer. Part of our learning to walk with God is learning the hardest thing to do. And that is to wait. This is because God does not see time as we see it, because time to Him is eternal. So teaching us to wait shows God we are being humble enough to do so and learn His knowledge His way. And not the way of another who could be wrong.

Why is that important? When we stand before God, He will not have everyone separated by denominations. There will be one body, and one book to judge us by for the life we lived. And we will give an account that will not be filtered by any denominational belief. And if we refer to our denomination teaching we will be corrected by the Word if wrong. That is why once the foundation is laid for faith in a denomination, and we are mature in our belief and wisdom. It is important for us to start the search for deeper truth that takes us beyond our denominational teachings. One where we learn how to be corrected by the Word even over what our denomination teaches us.

Once we are willing to be remolded from our denominational beliefs to the Word only. We gain a knowledge that is guided by the Holy Spirit. One in which the truth is told to you as you read the word because it becomes your teacher that supersedes all. When that connection is made, the journey towards more truth can start. And the wisdom from it is never ending.

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I know you love God's word, yes prdestination is a salvation issue and also a discipleship one, for if people start off wrong then they may be building upon a wrong foundation~whatever we believe about predestination I know we agree that ALL the glory belongs to God.

#122 Dave

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Posted 30 December 2009 - 08:58 AM

Hi Suz,

I've enjoyed reading your debate with Fred. But, coming in late, I'm having a hard time discerning which position you take. Leaving Calvin and Arminius out of it, could you do a brief explanation on your belief (backed by Scripture) concerning free will and predestination?

By the way, I've done a considerable amount of listening to Spurgeon sermons, and your style is very similar to his. Perhaps because you are both British?

Dave

#123 ikester7579

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Posted 30 December 2009 - 03:05 PM

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I know you love God's word, yes prdestination is a salvation issue and also a discipleship one, for if people start off wrong then they may be building upon a wrong foundation~whatever we believe about predestination I know we agree that ALL the glory belongs to God.

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I understand that. And thanks for your kind comments. But do you not think that in order to find truth one must ponder it?

The problem I see, and have been caught up in. Is having the truth preached to me to where I would believe it even before opening the Word. In other words, I had a predestined truth of what the Bible said and meant. All determined for me by another person. Now when I stand before God, can my excuse for all that I got wrong be laid in the other person's lap, while all along I could have read the Bible and figured it our myself? That is what God is going to hold me to. Because as long as we have individual access to what we will be judged by, there will be no excuse.

That is why I made sure. Do you not think that is important enough to know?

Why? If you deem yourself predestined, then find out you are not. What will that mean about your final destination? The possibility warrants us to make sure on this issue.

#124 Fred Williams

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Posted 30 December 2009 - 09:32 PM

Hello Suzy, sorry to hear about your internet problems.

Jesus is not giving anyone a choice, never, never does He invite anyone to choose Him of their own free will. "Follow Me and I will make you, [fishers of men] or what do you desire?"

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I once again agree with what you said. But the above does not mean man does not have free will. This will be the third time I have asked you to answer the following:

Q1: Do you believe God ordains ALL things that happen?

If you want, feel free to say “I keep avoiding answering this because I know it will show serious flaws in my logic”. :huh:

Now here is the free-will preacher

He preaches the KOG, he preaches man's problem, [sin] he preaches God's boon provision [pardon and newe life from Christ at the cross]

Now he does something more than the free-grace preacher, HE does the work of the Holy Ghost.

He calls upon the man to make a decision for Christ, [maybe in order to facitate the right decision he will start jumping up and down, and threatening hell fire and I wot not what else in order to coerse the right decision]

But he has done an awful thing, he has interupted the precious work of the Holy Ghost in the heart of the man, The man may well make a decision, perhaps the work of conversion is done, maybe it is not.

Many [because God is so gracious and merciful] are saved in this way, many, many come into church still in an unsaved condition.


Your answer above provides a great comparison and contrast to the other question in my last post I am seeking an answer for:

Q2: Can you provide a good reason why fellow Christians who accept your theology should witness to anyone?

Your answer above is a resounding NO! You admitted above that many were saved because of the gospel preached by your free will preacher, despite the fact you believe he went about it the wrong way. But according to your Calvinistic theology, it doesn’t matter a hill of beans whether or not there is a preacher there at all!!! You simply cannot provide any good reason why anyone should witness if they believe your theology.

Did you realise this asking for decisions only began about 150 years ago?


Hmm, I thought it started 2000 years ago:

Matt 10:32-33 "Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven.”

And the apostle Paul:

Rom 10:9 “…if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.”

Isn't this all that the Baptists are asking, that a person confess Jesus as their Savior and accept his free gift? Couldn't the Holy Spirit have worked in their heart to bring them to the point to draw them to that moment in that Baptist church? There are some things I find wrong with Baptist theology, but they pale in comparison to the Calvinistic system that would not even see a need for the above situation (that you ironically admitted would save many souls!).

5000 years ago -

Deut 30:19-20 I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life , that both you and your descendants may live.

Josh 24:15 And if it seems evil to you to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."

Now I realize your Bible is missing that conditional ‘if’ statement in the passages above, but instead says “you WILL confess with your mouth that the Lord Jesus, and you WILL believe that God has raised Him from the dead, because I predestined you to believe this”. Suz 3:15
:lol:

Finally, you contradicted yourself in your last comment, further illustrating how disjointed Calvinism is:

The all important thing was for people to know that there is a kingdom to be gained, a sure judgement to be avoided, sin to be put away at the cross and new life to be recieved


Why do people need to know (be told) these things, if they are pre-destined to believe it anyway?

Usual disclaimer: Man’s free-will “choice” above (which is really an ‘acceptance of a gift’) was not possible without God first reaching out to man. Accepting a free gift is not a work.

Fred

#125 the totton linnet

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Posted 03 January 2010 - 09:36 AM

I understand that. And thanks for your kind comments. But do you not think that in order to find truth one must ponder it?

The problem I see, and have been caught up in. Is having the truth preached to me to where I would believe it even before opening the Word. In other words, I had a predestined truth of what the Bible said and meant. All determined for me by another person. Now when I stand before God, can my excuse for all that I got wrong be laid in the other person's lap, while all along I could have read the Bible and figured it our myself? That is what God is going to hold me to. Because as long as we have individual access to what we will be judged by, there will be no excuse.

That is why I made sure. Do you not think that is important enough to know?

Why? If you deem yourself predestined, then find out you are not. What will that mean about your final destination? The possibility warrants us to make sure on this issue.

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In some respects I don't understand your premise Ike, It is very popular [and it comes along with the free-will package] to dismiss experience as in "feelings" [I am in big trouble now aren't I?] that's because when you say "feelings" to christians they imagine you are talking about mere human emotions and feelings of say joy or peace or love

"Experimental" religion or religion that you "feel" and experience was the terminology of the reformation, Luther Zwingli Calvin and co. "gladness of heart"

The reason it became considered unwise to talk about feelings as the Arminian theology overan the camp was simply because a great many people did not "experience" anything at conversion. The reason they did not experience anything is because nothing happened to them at the time of their "conversion"

No new peace came, no new joy, no new life in the Spirit.

Salvation after the sort I believe in is FIRST an experience, it is an experience which accords with God's word and comes in consequence of believing God's word.

Nowadays people "make a decision" they come forward at a meeting, they undergo counselling and repeat the prayers, but all the while nothing has happened in their hearts.

I will stress again that many DO get saved, many do not, some go on to experience salvation at a later stage.

When I got saved I knew it, and pretty soon the guy who was washing next door neighbours windows knew it too, he heard the ensuing racket from the top of his ladder. My neighbour came rushing to my door, fearful that something had happened ;) well it had, and she was the first person I ever witnessed to, a Jewish lady, she was so amazed she got her Rabbi to visit with 3 elders from her synagogue, they went away shaking their heads, "well we know it's not catholic" was the only sense they could make. All that before I came into any contact with christians after being saved.

my salvation is not based on a knowledge of predestination, but on this fact, that when Jesus was judged, found guilty, hung by nails on a tree to die He was doing so in my place, on my behalf. He was no sinner, I was the sinner. He would not deserve to die, I deserved to die.

But if He was judged and found guilty on my behalf, why do you suppose YOU or I or any other born again christian will be judged for sins?

That Christians DO have a judgement to come is clear but it is not THAT judgement, that court case has been heard and I was found guilty and have been punished already IN CHRIST He did it for me. I have passed from life to death. NOW I am alive in the Spirit.

#126 the totton linnet

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Posted 03 January 2010 - 10:22 AM

Hello Suzy, sorry to hear about your internet problems.
I once again agree with what you said. But the above does not mean man does not have free will. This will be the third time I have asked you to answer the following:

Q1: Do you believe God ordains ALL things that happen?

If you want, feel free to say “I keep avoiding answering this because I know it will show serious flaws in my logic”. ;)
Your answer above provides a great comparison and contrast to the other question in my last post I am seeking an answer for:

Q2: Can you provide a good reason why fellow Christians who accept your theology should witness to anyone?

Your answer above is a resounding NO! You admitted above that many were saved because of the gospel preached by your free will preacher, despite the fact you believe he went about it the wrong way. But according to your Calvinistic theology, it doesn’t matter a hill of beans whether or not there is a preacher there at all!!! You simply cannot provide any good reason why anyone should witness if they believe your theology.
Hmm, I thought it started 2000 years ago:

Matt 10:32-33 "Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven.”

And the apostle Paul:

Rom 10:9 “…if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.”

Isn't this all that the Baptists are asking, that a person confess Jesus as their Savior and accept his free gift? Couldn't the Holy Spirit have worked in their heart to bring them to the point to draw them to that moment in that Baptist church? There are some things I find wrong with Baptist theology, but they pale in comparison to the Calvinistic system that would not even see a need for the above situation (that you ironically admitted would save many souls!).

5000 years ago -

Deut 30:19-20 I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life , that both you and your descendants may live.

Josh 24:15 And if it seems evil to you to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."

Now I realize your Bible is missing that conditional ‘if’ statement in the passages above, but instead says “you WILL confess with your mouth that the Lord Jesus, and you WILL believe that God has raised Him from the dead, because I predestined you to believe this”. Suz 3:15
:)

Finally, you contradicted yourself in your last comment, further illustrating how disjointed Calvinism is:
Why do people need to know (be told) these things, if they are pre-destined to believe it anyway?

Usual disclaimer: Man’s free-will “choice” above (which is really an ‘acceptance of a gift’) was not possible without God first reaching out to man. Accepting a free gift is not a work.

Fred

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Hi Fred, I'm back on line, at least for now.
I can see we are not going to get anywhere, just a wrangle of words, does God ordain everything? I have stated my belief that He manages everything from a position of fore-knowledge. Nothing happens outside His governance, that will be a hard truth for some to accept.

I utterly reject your view that predestination applies only to the church as Body, that is to reject personal salvation, what used to be called charmingly "particular salvation"

All I see Joshua saying is you can serve the gods of the Amorites if you will, as for me and my house we serve the Lord.

I have not avoided any questions, but here is something you are avoiding. You know very well that in doctrine the bible does not contradict itself, but you are making it contradict itself. I could take scores of scriptures like "you have not chosen Me I have chosen you" He chose them PESONALLY each one, hand picked. You cannot find a scripture to say "you have chosen Me" or anything like it. and free will and choice in this context is synonymous.

You are also contradicting that we are saved by grace and grace alone through faith and that not of yourselves, lest any man should boast. What is "I came to the Lord of my free will" if not a boast? you are supposing there is something within you that is capable discerning what is right and acceptable to God.

Let us not kid ourselves that there is not a little puff of pride in us all, even the best kept garden will sprout weeds and the human heart is wicked.
You are saying saying that salvation is overwhelming achieved by God, but with just a tiny bit by us as well.

As people who are predestined children we yearn for our brthers and ssters not yet brought in darkness, sorrow is their lot in this world without their Lord, from our own experience we know that they may at present be numbered among the very worse sinners.

I'm not going to argue on and on indefinitely Fred, predestination, election, calling and choosing are all there written clear in the bible, I glory in them but I find nothing in free will to rejoice in, that were a fickle thing, what we choose today we may unchoose on anoher day.

#127 ikester7579

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Posted 03 January 2010 - 10:58 AM

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In some respects I don't understand your premise Ike, It is very popular [and it comes along with the free-will package] to dismiss experience as in "feelings" [I am in big trouble now aren't I?] that's because when you say "feelings" to christians they imagine you are talking about mere human emotions and feelings of say joy or peace or love

"Experimental" religion or religion that you "feel" and experience was the terminology of the reformation, Luther Zwingli Calvin and co. "gladness of heart"

The reason it became considered unwise to talk about feelings as the Arminian theology overan the camp was simply because a great many people did not "experience" anything at conversion. The reason they did not experience anything is because nothing happened to them at the time of their "conversion"

No new peace came, no new joy, no new life in the Spirit.

Salvation after the sort I believe in is FIRST an experience, it is an experience which accords with God's word and comes in consequence of believing God's word.

Nowadays people "make a decision" they come forward at a meeting, they undergo counselling and repeat the prayers, but all the while nothing has happened in their hearts.

I will stress again that many DO get saved, many do not, some go on to experience salvation at a later stage.

When I got saved I knew it, and pretty soon the guy who was washing next door neighbours windows knew it too, he heard the ensuing racket from the top of his ladder. My neighbour came rushing to my door, fearful that something had happened  ;) well it had, and she was the first person I ever witnessed to, a Jewish lady, she was so amazed she got her Rabbi to visit with 3 elders from her synagogue, they went away shaking their heads, "well we know it's not catholic" was the only sense they could make. All that before I came into any contact with christians after being saved.

my salvation is not based on a knowledge of predestination, but on this fact, that when Jesus was judged, found guilty, hung by nails on a tree to die He was doing so in my place, on my behalf. He was no sinner, I was the sinner. He would not deserve to die, I deserved to die.

But if He was judged and found guilty on my behalf, why do you suppose YOU or I or any other born again christian will be judged for sins?

That Christians DO have a judgement to come is clear but it is not THAT judgement, that court case has been heard and I was found guilty and have been punished already IN CHRIST He did it for me. I have passed from life to death. NOW I am alive in the Spirit.

View Post

In the judgment of the sheep and goats, who do you think the goats are? Unsaved sinner maybe? And can you back that up with scripture? There is no where in the Bible where unsaved sinners were referred to as goats.

Now goats were separated from the sheep. Which means they "were" part of the sheep crowd. Now the goats were cast into the fire. Now in the OT, what were goats on a fire? A sin atonement.

1cor 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Fire is a purification process. This is why the works are tested by fire. This is why the people at the judgment were referred to as goats. After their rejection by Christ and His convenant at the throne, to enter heaven they have to be purified by fire. In order for this to happen, they have to be renamed as a sin atonement. These are the people who barely missed the lake of fire the Bible speaks of.

This is why there will be a second judgment for them at the Great White throne.

Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Whosoever = a chance that someone will be written in the book of life at this throne. Implying there is a chance, when there is not, makes that verse a lie. You see what is taught in most all denominations is that everyone at the Great White throne judgment ends up in the Lake of Fire. If this is true, why even open up any books? Why even imply there is a chance when there is not.

So who has the chance if this is true? The ones who become goats and ended up on the fires of hell for a thousand years. Because who else in hell would be able to end up in the "Book of Life" except them? They were the only ones at Christ's throne, right? Everyone else there, is there (hell) because they are unsaved. They did not appear before Christ because they were "never" a part of Christ's covenant. So their fate is sealed. But the goats (who were saved), who were fallen away, will be purified by fire along with the blood because the second part of the covenant (kingdom works = bringing others to salvation) was not fulfilled.

We are saved by grace:
eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Yet we can also fall from grace:
gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Christ can only become of no effect to a person He has already been effected. So what is a saved person without the grace of God? Can a saved person still be saved without grace? Can a person who has no grace of God fall from it? No. Only a person who has grace can do this (the saved).

It's like the unforgivable sin. If the sinner can do this thing, and be denied salvation. Then sin becomes stronger than the shed blood of Christ. How? A free gift denied before it is given, makes sin stronger than what made the free gift possible. There is no sin that the shed blood cannot forgive. So who does this apply to? The saved.

Besides, how does an unsaved person, who is already damned, become more damned by commiting an unfogivable sin? Is there such thing as becoming double damned? It would be if they are damned one way, and now be eternally damned another.

Why is that important on this subject? Being able to lose salvation means you are not predestined. And I could bring up several more verses.

#128 the totton linnet

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Posted 03 January 2010 - 12:29 PM

In the judgment of the sheep and goats, who do you think the goats are? Unsaved sinner maybe? And can you back that up with scripture? There is no where in the Bible where unsaved sinners were referred to as goats.

Now goats were separated from the sheep. Which means they "were" part of the sheep crowd. Now the goats were cast into the fire. Now in the OT, what were goats on a fire? A sin atonement.

1cor 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Fire is a purification process. This is why the works are tested by fire. This is why the people at the judgment were referred to as goats. After their rejection by Christ and His convenant at the throne, to enter heaven they have to be purified by fire. In order for this to happen, they have to be renamed as a sin atonement. These are the people who barely missed the lake of fire the Bible speaks of.

This is why there will be a second judgment for them at the Great White throne.

Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Whosoever = a chance that someone will be written in the book of life at this throne. Implying there is a chance, when there is not, makes that verse a lie. You see what is taught in most all denominations is that everyone at the Great White throne judgment ends up in the Lake of Fire. If this is true, why even open up any books? Why even imply there is a chance when there is not.

So who has the chance if this is true? The ones who become goats and ended up on the fires of hell for a thousand years. Because who else in hell would be able to end up in the "Book of Life" except them? They were the only ones at Christ's throne, right? Everyone else there, is there (hell) because they are unsaved. They did not appear before Christ because they were "never" a part of Christ's covenant. So their fate is sealed. But the goats (who were saved), who were fallen away, will be purified by fire along with the blood because the second part of the covenant (kingdom works = bringing others to salvation) was not fulfilled.

We are saved by grace:
eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Yet we can also fall from grace:
gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Christ can only become of no effect to a person He has already been effected. So what is a saved person without the grace of God? Can a saved person still be saved without grace? Can a person who has no grace of God fall from it? No. Only a person who has grace can do this (the saved).

It's like the unforgivable sin. If the sinner can do this thing, and be denied salvation. Then sin becomes stronger than the shed blood of Christ. How? A free gift denied before it is given, makes sin stronger than what made the free gift possible. There is no sin that the shed blood cannot forgive. So who does this apply to? The saved.

Besides, how does an unsaved person, who is already damned, become more damned by commiting an unfogivable sin? Is there such thing as becoming double damned? It would be if they are damned one way, and now be eternally damned another.

Why is that important on this subject? Being able to lose salvation means you are not predestined. And I could bring up several more verses.

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It's beyond my ken how people can have any boldness in proclaiming a gospel they are not themselves sure they have a part in, they are saved today but well tomorrow who knows? How can you proclaim EVERlasting life with any assurance?

I was preaching in Hyde park, now I don't have a voice I can lift up on high, aw I envy the brothers, they can shout out like Pavorotti but me at a certain pitch my voice just breaks into a hoarse whisper and it will be gone for the day.

But as I was reading out of Isaiah "Come let us reason together, though your sins be as [black as coal-Brits know all about coal] they shall be as white as the driven snow"
There were three lads passing through, bad lads in their leathers and studs and hair every which shade they were bikers and bobbing behind them a blonde girl swaggering as good as any of them, she was one the boys.

Well my words fell on her like a ton of bricks~they wer a good 50 yards away, no way really my little voice could have carried that far, in the natural.

She came at me like an angry wasp, she ws not angry but kind of distraught and breathless, my words had pricked her heart. "Why did you say tht to me?" she wailed.
I gently explained that they were not my words but were a personal promise to her from God, "today if you will believe, even before you leave this park He will make your heart to be pure like snow."

You never forget people when they are in that condition [being wakened by the Holy Ghost] they fasten their eyes upon you and search into your very soul to see whether what you say to them is on the level.

"Do you really mean that?" she thought maybe I was being metaphorical.

Well I was with a dear brother, and he was of Anglican persuasion [although he had been brought into a pentecostal experience] and dear man it was all too much for him "ah but...." he said and his finger came up.

I could have strangled him and his "ah but..." and bitten his finger off to boot. There is no "ah but...." in the text.

The moment he said it she looked at him, she looked at his finger, she flicked her eyes at me and she turned her back and was gone and my heart yearned after her.

I said to my brother "didn't you see? she was about to be saved, she was on the hook and you took her off it" he was so casual, "oops so sorry" he said as though he had bumped into somebody accidentally. I was angry, but yes of course I had to forgive.

But I hate that "ah but...." I hate that reasoning finger.
The bible is so wonderful in it's assurances it all just seems too good for us to believe that it can be so wonderful. Human reason just can't take it.
Surely there must be a snag somewhere, it can't just be unconditional, "only believe" there must be something more to it than that.

Trying to sell this temporary salvation is like trying to sell insurance or a second hand car. "You mean EVERLASTING life?" and if you are in the free will camp the finger comes up and "ah but..."

Predestination says "He was slain for us before the foundation of the world" He offered His sacrifice through the eternal Spirit. There is no beginning nor any end. It's a sure salvation forever settled in heaven. God determined to save ME before ever time was or a star twinkled in the sky. How then can it in any way depend upon me? He chose Jacob before he had done either good or bad, if you think about it that was the only hope wily ol' Jacob had, and it is the only hope I have too, but it is a sure hope because it depends entirely upon God.

#129 ikester7579

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 01:35 AM

It's beyond my ken how people can have any boldness in proclaiming a gospel they are not themselves sure they have a part in, they are saved today but well tomorrow who knows? How can you proclaim EVERlasting life with any assurance?


Why would I not have assurance? No-Osas is not about losing your salvation everytime you sin, like the denomination of osas teaches that it is. Do they also teach that No-Osas is salvation through fear? Of course they do. That's how they make you fear looking into it because they give you preconceived ideas of what they think about it. So who would be really using fear?

If I was truly fearing losing my salvation, I would debate in fear. Do you see me debating in fear? Why do you think God is longsuffering? If we are predestined, there is nothing to suffer.

Salvation through works? Nope.
There are two types of works.
1) Carnal works = Is where the unsaved sinner tries to live a good life to enter Heaven.
2) Kingdom works = Works that are done to bring other unto salvation.

No-osas does not believe the first one. So no, it's not about working your way to Heaven as osas will say it is.

Salvation is a covenant, right?
Covenant: Is an agreement by "both sides". •(Bible) an agreement between God and his people in which God makes certain promises and requires certain behavior from them in return.

So what happens when one side (us) breaks the covenant? We are forgiven. But what if we contually break it without repenting?

James 5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

Bretheren = Believer.
If any of you err from the truth = Who errs? We do.
One convert him = how far can one err from truth. He needs to be converted again means erred all the way to not having salvation.
Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins. = How far can the Bretheren fall? Far enough that this conversion back will save his "soul" from death. Now what is the death of the soul? It's called the second death.

rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Second death is where the soul gets cast into the Lake of Fire which is eternal damnation.

Salvation is a marraige type covenant, right?
In marraige there is also divorce. Christ never divorces us because He cannot break the covenant. But we can divorce Him by our actions and refusal to repent.

When we are saved, are we in or out of the body of Christ?

Revelation 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

This is Christ speaking correct? To come out of the body of Christ, you first have to be inside it. So if Christ removes you by vomitting you up (spue), are you still saved?

You see these verses, not people, made me turn away from osas. I was not taught this, I was taught osas (once saved always saved). And I also found that osas ignores these verses so that their doctrine can be true. You don't find truth through ignoring the word of God. Either all of it meshes and works which equals truth. Or it does not which means you don't have all the truth.

You see all through your response I don't see you addressing the verses. You are just telling a story to try and get your point across. The fact is, if what you believe is true, prove it through scripture. I have no ego to bruise here. I want truth and if you have it, prove it through the word. With all due respect, your stories are not working. Interesting though.

Side note: Because I have debated this subject for over 4 years, I have an archive of verses and Biblical reasoning. It's about 10 times larger than anything I could find for osas belief. I could fill up several pages of posts in this thread with all this info that I have accumilated over those four years.

Sample: Did you know that the osas doctrine is also referred to as the Balaam doctrine?

rev 2:14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.

Balaam told Balac to make the children of God believe that they could sin and still be rightous in the eyes of God (a foundation for osas and predestination). Not only did God's wrath come upon His people. But Balaam was later killed by the sword for his evil deed against Israel.

josh 13:22 Balaam also the son of Beor, the soothsayer, did the children of Israel slay with the sword among them that were slain by them.

This is basically a pagan belief mixed in with the word of God. God does not take the life of someone who has not done such evil as Balaam did. And there are many variations of this belief that have branched off the original one. Each one taking certain parts to more extreme.

Every denomination that teaches you can sin, or there is no punishment for sin once saved, is a variation of the Balaam doctrine. Every doctrine that teaches you can "knowingly" mix lies with the truth of the Word is a variation of the Balaam doctrine. Any docrine that teaches you can put other things before God or His Word, is a variation of the Balaam doctrine. Even unto the point to where it shows theistic evolution as being a variation of Balaam's doctrine.

So my decision to turn away from osas, was not made in haste. I did my research and invite you to do the same.

#130 the totton linnet

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 03:17 AM

I know whom I have believed in and am fully persauded that He is able to keep that which I have committed unto Him against that day.

#131 the totton linnet

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 04:18 AM

Hi Suz,

I've enjoyed reading your debate with Fred. But, coming in late, I'm having a hard time discerning which position you take. Leaving Calvin and Arminius out of it, could you do a brief explanation on your belief (backed by Scripture) concerning free will and predestination?

By the way, I've done a considerable amount of listening to Spurgeon sermons, and your style is very similar to his. Perhaps because you are both British?

Dave

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Hello Dave, the Lord bless you.
I am so sorry not to have picked this up earlier, I have had Service provider woes and missed it.

No surprise that I have picked up a great deal of Spurgeon, beside the bible he is meat and drink to me, I know very few modern preachers and teachers. It was a Scottish lieutenant of the Salvation army who during a time of blessing placed "an all round ministry" into my hands and made me promise to read at least 20 minutes before putting it down. I have been reading ever since.

But there must be a recognition that revelation has advanced a great deal since Spurgeon's day, it is a constant nigglement to me when he will read spiritual truths into such stories e.g. Blind Bartemeus and not see physical healing, it just goes to show that however much we know or think we know about bible truth, only the Holy Ghost can open our eyes to it.

If Luther had preached "the sick shall be healed by faith" as well as "the just shall live by faith" we might have had a different sort of reformation.

But the core theological truths and principles are the same in every age.

What I believe is firmly rooted and grounded in what I got from the Lord the day I was saved. People will say we should be rooted and grounded in God's word that is correct, what I recieved was by faith in God's word.

What purpose do we have in preaching Blind Bartimeus today if God opens not the eyes of the blind today? THAT is what I am working on in my own life.

To what purpose read we of joy and peace and friendship with God? which along with righteousness Paul says constitutes true religion, if these are not our everyday experience and walk with the Lord.

We must have God, we must have the Holy Ghost, we must not only read about streams of living water but we must have those streams flowing out of our bellies when we are sharing the gospel. If we do then that is the whole matter.

We will learn to tell the difference between the gentle cooing of the Dove and the caustic "caw, caw" of the raven.

I don't believe in man's free will, it is a deception, it is THE deception of the garden "you will be as God knowing good and evil" man is either a servant to righteousness unto life or a slave to sin unto death, there is no free will there, someone will say "well but he may choose" yes he may choose IN HIS MIND but this choice brings not the reality of the choice into the heart and life. Paul CHOSE to serve God and set out to destroy the church. This choosing which people think is free will is a deception.

Man is a trinity even as God is body, soul and spirit but the spirit is dead, just as dead as dead can be and unless God comes and breathes on us dead is what we shall always be.

I remember when my eyes fell on the words "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, and today and forever" such a simple statement, I had stared at it long and hard and couldn't get it. But when God breathed it into me it was like an inaudible alarm clock going off inside, what a wake up call, He is not a religion He is a person.

We don't come to Him in a ceremony [I was brought up Catholic] we don't recieve Him in a sacrament. We come to Him today just exactly as they came to Him in the bible, "Jesus, Jesus, save ME, heal ME Jesus, Jesus....don't pass me by....Jesus" if we cry out to Him like that we shall recieve from Him all our hearts desire.

And today if I feel He is about to go on by I do like the disciples of old did and grab His sleeve and say "Lord, the day is far spent, abide with me."

When Jesus was teaching some hard truths many turned away from Him and followed no more after Him and He asked of His disciples "will you also go away?" Peter said "Lord where shall we go? Thou hast the words of eternal life" that's the predestination I believe in, we have no choice, having tasted the goodness of the Lord there is nothing in this world for us, no-one or nothing can take His place or even compare, we have burned our bridges.

You asked me what I believe and that is it ;) and I am not about to change.

#132 ikester7579

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 09:57 AM

I know whom I have believed in and am fully persauded that He is able to keep that which I have committed unto Him against that day.

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Well I don't think your osas belief would be a salvation issue because of your faith. But some use osas as a ticket to sin. That is what I worry about. But being curious, and with all due respect. Why no address the scripture I brought up? If one has to ignore parts of the word to believe something, it's not right. That is where I had a problem with osas when I converted to no-osas. I found myself having to deny several verses in order to believe.

Also, if you like. I can help you with any misconceptions you may have about no-osas. So you can ask me any questions you like. I'm not trying to convert you. I just want to make sure you don't have it wrong about what we believe, and how the belief operates. That is if you are interested in knowing.

#133 the totton linnet

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 11:42 AM

Well I don't think your osas belief would be a salvation issue because of your faith. But some use osas as a ticket to sin. That is what I worry about. But being curious, and with all due respect. Why no address the scripture I brought up? If one has to ignore parts of the word to believe something, it's not right. That is where I had a problem with osas when I converted to no-osas. I found myself having to deny several verses in order to believe.

Also, if you like. I can help you with any misconceptions you may have about no-osas. So you can ask me any questions you like. I'm not trying to convert you. I just want to make sure you don't have it wrong about what we believe, and how the belief operates. That is if you are interested in knowing.

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The problem is what we both understand from reading the same scripture Isaac which is why the free grace and the free will argument rages on unabated and relentlessly and has done for centuries and by better minds than mine. If I take just two scriptures, the one in James you quote and the famous one in Hebrews.

But first let me remind of that man in Corinth who sinned so grieviously while still maintaining fellowship, even by todays standard his sin was heinious. There at no point in Paul's dealing with it where there was a threat of losing his salvation, the man was to be removed from fellowship and delivered over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh that his spirit might be saved, that is in full accord with ALL the scripture [incidently O and N testament] later we see Paul calling upon the church to recieve this man back into fellowship, even that he should be comforted???

This brings me directly to James [I have never seen any difference between Paul and James] James says if somebody has erred from the truth and one convert him [brings him back rsv is better I think] let that person know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

And I am assuming the sinner was saved like you do, soul death is a very serious loss and is eternal, but it is not damnation to hell. This is exactly the situation the man in Corinth was in. His spirit would be saved. This is the judgement saints will have to endure, losses and rewards, it is not to be trifled with. Not only does it bring eternal loss but it is a thing of great sorrow in this life too, we get on the wrong side of God, we have all seen it, we have witnessed brothers who will tell you that they were once on fire for God but they fell into sin, oh they are sad and sorrowful yet they still have the assurance that they are saved.

You have the very public cases in America of men like Baaker and Swaggart. Those men are still saved but such sorrow, they have managed to come back to a measure of usefulness to the praise of God's mercy. Let no-one of us suppose it could not happen to us.

With Hebrews the sixth chapter is perhaps [in fact I am sure] an even more serious thing than sin in the ordinary sense, apostacy is when people publicly repudiate Christ and the cross as the only way of salvation from sin and adopt some other religious means of salvation.

In Hebrews they were Jews who were [perhaps] contemplating going back to the law, like the foolish Galatian Gentiles who were ready to adopt circumcision.

The warning is exactly the same in both cases, they risked being cut off from Christ, it sounds dire and it blooming well IS dire but it is for the benefits of Christ, the blessings, the fellowship of the Spirit in this life and surely great loss in the future life, it simply is not eternal punishment. If pursued and persisted in it will end in death.

This makes sense of Paul saying "I could wish myself cut off from Christ for the sake of my fellow Israelites" This is a great argument as to whether all Israel will be saved, I believe they will because of election, but with regards to the blessings of a covenant relationship with God they are cut off and have been grafted out of the olive in order that we might be brought in.

When we are saved our spirits become one spirit with the Lord, we are united with Him and indivisable from Him we will be saved, that is our spirits will be saved. But as to our souls that is another matter and as to our physical well being in this life it is another matter Paul says in Corinths that many have become weak and sick because they were not conducting themselves properly in the body of Christ.

These are tricky and contentious matters which I think is not helped along much by the fact that the most read bible among evangelicals is still a 17th century translation which for all it's many merits simply does not always mean what it seems to mean because of the archaic language. The problem is that the theological stance of not the KJV but Tynedale on whom the translation is based mostly was such a wonderful theologian. I actually read Tynedales 16th century bible that pre-dates Calvin and is a much softer more gentle puritanism than what came later in the 17th century.

#134 Fred Williams

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Posted 09 January 2010 - 11:47 PM

...does God ordain everything? I have stated my belief that He manages everything from a position of fore-knowledge. Nothing happens outside His governance, that will be a hard truth for some to accept.

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Hi Suzy,

It’s hard to accept because it flies against our otherwise common sense view of God; it’s not scriptural. B) Let me put it this way. Do you believe God pre-ordains women to get an abortion? Do you think God pre-ordained Jack the Ripper?

You have stated that God doesn't choose people for hell, but what you haven't done is explain how this is logically possible if God explicitly chooses people for heaven.

I utterly reject your view that predestination applies only to the church as Body, that is to reject personal salvation, what used to be called charmingly "particular salvation"


My problem remains that you have not shown me a single scripture where it is clear God pre-ordained someone to be saved for eternity. If you could, I would definitely change my mind. I have changed my position many times over the years to arrive where I am at now with this topic.

I have not avoided any questions, but here is something you are avoiding. You know very well that in doctrine the bible does not contradict itself, but you are making it contradict itself. I could take scores of scriptures like "you have not chosen Me I have chosen you" He chose them PESONALLY each one, hand picked. You cannot find a scripture to say "you have chosen Me" or anything like it. and free will and choice in this context is synonymous.


There are verses that I defend that will appear to you as contradictory, and visa versa. The problem is, I have 10 that contradict your one, compared to your one that “contradicts” my 10. Doesn’t that give you pause at all? I think I asked you this before. Saul was chosen by God, and Saul failed miserably. Israel was chosen by God, and as a group failed miserably (though there was a believing remant). You claim that God choosing someone means that the person is saved. What scriptural evidence do you have that Saul is saved? What evidence do you have the all Israel was saved?

You are also contradicting that we are saved by grace and grace alone through faith and that not of yourselves, lest any man should boast. What is "I came to the Lord of my free will" if not a boast? you are supposing there is something within you that is capable discerning what is right and acceptable to God.


I have never said "I came to the Lord of my free will"? This is very important. You keep saying things like this, which tells me you are not seeing my point. Man cannot choose God, God has to draw us out, and He gives us a free gift that we can take or reject. Accepting a gift is not a work! If you can get to the point to see the beauty and clarity of this, then the scores of scriptures you have to explain away no longer become a problem.

To address your 2nd point, I do believe man, at least to a certain extent, is “capable discerning what is right and acceptable to God”, Romans 1 & 2 proves this conclusively (but I must again qualify this by asking you to not misconstrue such a discerning ability with choosing GOd). You are having an awfully hard time seeing that man’s free will ability to reject God’s attempts to reach out to him is by no means illogical or contradictory, or even paradoxical. It is a perfectly sound dichotomy between free will & grace.

Let us not kid ourselves that there is not a little puff of pride in us all, even the best kept garden will sprout weeds and the human heart is wicked.You are saying saying that salvation is overwhelming achieved by God, but with just a tiny bit by us as well.


No, I did NOTHING, not even a TINY BIT, to earn or deserve a FREE gift. You think accepting a free gift is a “work”, it is not a work since it was a gift! Please consider the short story of the Teddy Roosevelt and Clara Barton encounter I documented in the conclusion of my Bibleevidences.com website:

There was a story told once of an encounter between Clara Barton, renowned humanitarian and founder of the Red Cross, and a future president of the United States, Theodore Roosevelt. During the Spanish American War, Colonel Roosevelt approached Nurse Barton and offered her money for food and other supplies for his banged up and ravished Rough-Riders. Barton refused his request. Confused, Roosevelt went to the resident Surgeon and explained what had happened. The Surgeon told Roosevelt to return and simply ask for the supplies. A smile slowly crept across the Colonel’s face as he went and asked Nurse Barton for the supplies, which she then immediately provided him. Grace is something that cannot be bought or worked for, as there is no price that can be put on it.

As people who are predestined children we yearn for our brthers and ssters not yet brought in darkness, sorrow is their lot in this world without their Lord, from our own experience we know that they may at present be numbered among the very worse sinners.


So you still have no reason to offer our readers why we should bother to witness to people at all?

I'm not going to argue on and on indefinitely Fred, predestination, election, calling and choosing are all there written clear in the bible, I glory in them but I find nothing in free will to rejoice in, that were a fickle thing, what we choose today we may unchoose on anoher day.


This is most certainly your right. I hope you do not hold hard feelings for my right and responsibility to challenge your Calvinistic beliefs every time they appear in
this forum. You're a great contributor to this forum and a good Christian sister, but you have become wrapped around this particular doctrine that is extremely harmful to others to hear, a doctrine that gives an excuse not to share the gospel, a doctrine I have become utterly convinced has its roots in the prince of this world.

Fred

#135 the totton linnet

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Posted 10 January 2010 - 05:39 AM

God is able to show you, it is clear that your own free will won't. B)

Free will is in rebellion to God's word and indeed IS the rebellion of man since the first time he was decieved in the garden, "you'll be like God knowing good and evil" that is being able to distinguish, able to choose, what Adam discovered was that far from being free he was now a slave, in obedience to the voice he heeded.

When we are saved we are saved from that deception, but bye and bye the old way of thinking re-asserts itself. But God is merciful, and just as He arrested all that non-sense when we got saved even if He has to knock us off our horses to do so He is able to knock free will off of it's throne too. And we will say "To Him only be glory and honour and praise who of His own divine will did save us and made us kings and priest to our God.

Free will is a fishy out of water, he looks lively enough for a while, he will never regain his freedom till he is safely back in his element. And I'm thinking a free will christian is a birdy in a cage.

#136 Fred Williams

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Posted 10 January 2010 - 08:49 AM

God is able to show you, it is clear that your own free will won't.  B)

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How, by hairs sticking up on the back of my neck, or through his Word? :)

John 6:70 Jesus answered them, "Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?"

This is another example where someone God chose, apparently failed. Do you think Judas was pre-destined to be saved, or pre-destined to go to hell? I say neither, since the scripture gives me no basis for either. I do see from scripture that God loved Judas. Do you think God loved Judas? If so, why send him to hell? I say that the scripture shows that Judas was not interested in Jesus as Savior (though I don't think we can say definitively he didn't accept Jesus before he hanged himself, though its a seems a strong bet he didn't).

Fred

#137 the totton linnet

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Posted 10 January 2010 - 10:04 AM

How, by hairs sticking up on the back of my neck, or through his Word? :)

John 6:70 Jesus answered them, "Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?"

This is another example where someone God chose, apparently failed. Do you think Judas was pre-destined to be saved, or pre-destined to go to hell? I say neither, since the scripture gives me no basis for either. I do see from scripture that God loved Judas. Do you think God loved Judas? If so, why send him to hell? I say that the scripture shows that Judas was not interested in Jesus as Savior (though I don't think we can say definitively he didn't accept Jesus before he hanged himself, though its a seems a strong bet he didn't).

Fred

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Every attempt by God to show Paul that he was a chosen vessel through His word failed so God caught him by his short hairs, he learned to listen the hard way.

Nobody God loves or ever loved will be in hell, Judas was written about hundreds of years before in the psalms, Jesus knew all about him, Judas was every bit as predestined to fulfil his destiny as Paul was, and to forestall you [because you have not read all my answers or you would see that I have answered all your points] that does not mean in my view that all are predestined to eternal punishment~viz a viz federal headship.

All we are doing is throwing scriptures at each other, it would be better if you could find an apostolic doctrine of free-will, I can find several predestination ones and I did not learn predestination through Paul primarily but John.

Or you could try changing a tare into wheat, that would be fun to watch. For a long time they look the same.

How rare a thing it was for Hitler to genuinely smile, I've seen a photo of him beaming from ear to ear almost beatific, it was the day the 1st world war was declared. You and I mercifully do not see the inner soul of any man but Jesus calls people by what is there "ye brood of vipers...how can you do anything good?" He says to the Pharisees, but and yet God makes them to carry out His prederminate plan of redemption, it could not have been done through the disciples. Ah! these are deep waters indeed.
Were it not have been through Hitler there would be no state of Israel today. Now THAT was the last thing on earth that Hitler intended or his master the devil.


Now all men have souls and they are created of the same [substance?] but for different purposes.

#138 ikester7579

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Posted 10 January 2010 - 04:24 PM

God is able to show you, it is clear that your own free will won't.  :)

Free will is in rebellion to God's word and indeed IS the rebellion of man since the first time he was decieved in the garden, "you'll be like God knowing good and evil" that is being able to distinguish, able to choose, what Adam discovered was that far from being free he was now a slave, in obedience to the voice he heeded.

When we are saved we are saved from that deception, but bye and bye the old way of thinking re-asserts itself. But God is merciful, and just as He arrested all that non-sense when we got saved even if He has to knock us off our horses to do so He is able to knock free will off of it's throne too. And we will say "To Him only be glory and honour and praise who of His own divine will did save us and made us kings and priest to our God.

Free will is a fishy out of water, he looks lively enough for a while, he will never regain his freedom till he is safely back in his element. And I'm thinking a free will christian is a birdy in a cage.

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I would have to disagree that freewill is rebellion.

rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

"Liberty" is an expression of freewill.

lk 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

Then there is also a warning unto taking liberty into the direction of sin. Aa to make salvation a ticket to sin through the doctrine of Balaam that teaches one can sin and still be righteous without repent in the eyes of God.

1cor 8:9 But take heed lest by any means this liberty of your's become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.

There is even a warning to watch out for those who will make liberty (freewill) look like bondage.

gal 2:4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:

Stumblingblock is where the righteous fall. Anything, good or evil can be made into a stumblingblock by the choice to do so. Either evil or good can be chosen. Without freewill, our choices are not our own. And the judgment for choices we no longer control, is not just because even sin becomes that of another and not of ourselves. There will be no one serving in Heaven or Hell in our place because our sin will be our own. We will stand alone before God, our sins bared for all to see. The only thing that will be separated are the sheep and goats. Not sin.

Liberty to choose sin makes sin judgable unto us only.
No Liberty means that our sin is not of ourselves. And cannot be justly judged.

Example: If a man participates freely in a crime because someone offered the chance to do so, and he did. That would make him guilty, right? But if that same man could prove that a gun was held to him, and he was forced (no liberty) to do this thing against his will. Then his sin is not of his own doing, and to judge him guilty is unjust judgment. This is what eliminating Liberty to choose does to the judgment of God. God or His Son cannot justly judge sin that the person had no liberty to choose or reject.


So if you really want to know what the Bible says about freewill, research the word "liberty".

#139 the totton linnet

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Posted 10 January 2010 - 05:08 PM

I would have to disagree that freewill is rebellion.

rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

"Liberty" is an expression of freewill.

lk 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

Then there is also a warning unto taking liberty into the direction of sin. Aa to make salvation a ticket to sin through the doctrine of Balaam that teaches one can sin and still be righteous without repent in the eyes of God.

1cor 8:9 But take heed lest by any means this liberty of your's become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.

There is even a warning to watch out for those who will make liberty (freewill) look like bondage.

gal 2:4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:

Stumblingblock is where the righteous fall. Anything, good or evil can be made into a stumblingblock by the choice to do so. Either evil or good can be chosen. Without freewill, our choices are not are own. And the judgment for choices we no longer control, is not just because even sin becomes that of another and not of ourselves. There will be no one serving in Heaven or Hell in our place because our sin will be our own. We will stand alone before God, our sins bared for all to see. The only thing that will be separated are the sheep and goats. Not sin.

Liberty to choose sin makes sin judgable unto us only.
No Liberty means that our sin is not of ourselves. And cannot be justly judged.

Example: If a man participates freely in a crime because someone offered the chance to do so, and he did. That would make him guilty, right? But if that same man could prove that a gun was held to him, and he was forced (no liberty) to do this thing against his will. Then his sin is not of his own doing, and to judge him guilty is unjust judgment. This is what eliminating Liberty to choose does to the judgment of God. God or His Son cannot justly judge sin that the person had no liberty to choose or reject.
So if you really want to know what the Bible says about freewill, research the word "liberty".

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I am free, Jesus set me free. hallelujah, free to be the person God created me to be. Before I thought I was following my own free-will although the bible says I was actually following prince of the power of the air, the spirit which now works in the sons of disobedience. We are either servants of righteousness unto life or slaves to sin unto death, whichever way we don't have free will.

#140 ikester7579

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Posted 10 January 2010 - 08:57 PM

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I am free, Jesus set me free. hallelujah, free to be the person God created me to be. Before I thought I was following my own free-will although the bible says I was actually following prince of the power of the air, the spirit which now works in the sons of disobedience. We are either servants of righteousness unto life or slaves to sin unto death, whichever way we don't have free will.

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Can you, or can you not choose to sin or do evil if you wanted?




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