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Predestination & Free Will


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#141 the totton linnet

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Posted 11 January 2010 - 07:17 AM

Can you, or can you not choose to sin or do evil if you wanted?

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That is not the argument, you will say I am shifting ground but what I say is the choice is a deception, it is THE deception.

You may choose, Paul chose, but that choosing does not enable you to DO, all the time Paul was choosing is was messing up after God intervened in his life all choosing was at an end. He surrendered to the will of God.

He never chose to be an apostle, that was God's choice, he had no choice but to preach the gospel "woe is me if I preach not the gospel"
The church is FULL of people making choices of their own "free will" doing stuff God never appointed them to do and making a mess.

God distributes His gifts and enablements and ministries as He wills not according to our "free will"

Whatever I may choose does not give me the enablement to do it, that's what I mean when I say it is a deception.

I will tell you the preacher may say "choose Christ" but that does not enpower anybody to do so, and they may bring everybody to the front and "pray the prayer" but if the Holy Ghost does not do a work in the heart they will not be saved.

All Christ's apostles and ministers are by His personal appointments but christians hear a stirring sermon and they are up and they are "going to serve the Lord"
And they can be a right pain in the neck, they make everything so onerous and hard.

One of the biggest influences on me before I was saved was a catholic nun who had become an atheist, boy she was bitter, having spent her best years cloistered up wearing black, lying serviley in prayer and fasting for hours and all the lot of it

That is the free will way, it is not God's way, you will say but that is Catholicism yes but it creeps into the church by a different name. Hard service, the old soldier act, and it makes everybody sick, people run a mile from it.

Jesus said "learn of Me, I am gentle and lowly of spirit, take My yoke upon you for My yoke is easy and My burden is light".... "Come unto Me all ye that do labour and heavy of spirit...."

The Jesus way is the joy way, it is the way of the gladsome heart. I want His choice, if His choice is that I should be persecuted He will supply the strength AND the joy for me to do it.

I've given up the deception of "free will"

#142 ikester7579

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 01:12 AM

So by what force are we now not able to sin, which is what you seem to imply?

#143 the totton linnet

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 06:07 AM

So by what force are we now not able to sin, which is what you seem to imply?

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Free will is the route to sin, it is not sin but it is the deception by which the devil seduces man into sin, he presents man with the choice and [in man's fallen state being bound to sin] he does sin.
Grace is the route to salvation, it is not salvation, but it is the means by which [through the word of God] faith is imparted into the heart.

The same applies absolutely through our walk, if we are under the delusion of free will still we will still b in the choice zone [even though we be saved]

This is the victory I got over sin

I have been crucified
crucified with Christ
I live no longer I
but Christ lives in me
and the life that I now live
I live by the faith
by the faith of the Son of God
who loved me, who loved me
and gave Himself for me.

I well remember the day God put His finger on a certain area of my life and showed me it would cost me fellowship with the Holy Ghost to continue in it. But here is God, this is how He deals for at the very same time that old gospel song came into my heart.

I loved the words, but the tune was an awful dirge, but I sang it, over and over, all day, day after day until those words became a living reality in me.

I live no longer I but Christ LIVES in me. That is the only power I know.

You can say IF YOU LIKE that I chose, I know better, without the Holy Ghost I die.

#144 ikester7579

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Posted 13 January 2010 - 01:27 AM

Can you provide scripture that says we no longer have freewill?
And will this scripture have no other scripture that will contradict it?

#145 the totton linnet

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Posted 13 January 2010 - 06:48 AM

Can you provide scripture that says we no longer have freewill?
And will this scripture have no other scripture that will contradict it?

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I can do better, I can challenge you to show one syllable of scripture which attributes to man as ever had at any time free will, show forth the doctrine of man's free will, I can show forth several that set out God's fore knowledge and predestination.

Free will is the deception the devil used in the garden to get man to contemplate the possibity of disobedience. It has always been a deception.

Man is not created to have free will, this idea [very suitable I would say to certain American concepts~and that is not an insult] but it is a modern idea [modern I mean post 16th century] it is an unknown concept to the more ancient world.

Man is created in the image of God he is only free while he is in the image of God , that is he is free to be what God created him to be, Jesus was the only one to keep His freedom and what we find is He was at ALL times subject to the will of the Father.

If He lives in us we will be submitted unto the Father's will, or we will be slaves to our fallen flesh and the mind of the flesh. None of which amounts to free will.

#146 Bex

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Posted 13 January 2010 - 04:34 PM

I can appreciate the points made in this thread by both parties. I think it's important that we weigh all points that scripture brings up in this area to get closer to the truth in its entirety (as much as God as shared with us in His word).

About free will?

I thought I would submit a link to this video to see what others might think. Thankfully this person has backed up his comments with scripture:

http://www.tangle.co...ebdba0b48b87949

#147 ikester7579

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Posted 13 January 2010 - 09:28 PM

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I can do better, I can challenge you to show one syllable of scripture which attributes to man as ever had at any time free will, show forth the doctrine of man's free will, I can show forth several that set out God's fore knowledge and predestination.

Free will is the deception the devil used in the garden to get man to contemplate the possibity of disobedience. It has always been a deception.

Man is not created to have free will, this idea [very suitable I would say to certain American concepts~and that is not an insult] but it is a modern idea [modern I mean post 16th century] it is an unknown concept to the more ancient world.

Man is created in the image of God he is only free while he is in the image of God , that is he is free to be what God created him to be, Jesus was the only one to keep His freedom and what we find is He was at ALL times subject to the will of the Father.

If He lives in us we will be submitted unto the Father's will, or we will be slaves to our fallen flesh and the mind of the flesh. None of which amounts to free will.

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Logic does not override what is written in the Bible. If you cannot provide scripture that has no contradiction, then just say so. Admitting this does not mean you are wrong. It means you do not fully understand what is written and why. No one can fully understand the Bible, we can only attempt to.

#148 the totton linnet

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Posted 14 January 2010 - 04:57 AM

Logic does not override what is written in the Bible. If you cannot provide scripture that has no contradiction, then just say so. Admitting this does not mean you are wrong. It means you do not fully understand what is written and why. No one can fully understand the Bible, we can only attempt to.

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The scripture must overide our logic, my position is quite clear, you asked me for a scripture which states we no longer have free will and I asked you for scripture which says that free will is an attribute given to man. Free will is a deception, it does not exist [except in God]

God said of every tree thou mayest eat freely but of the tree that is in the centre thou shalt not eat of it for in the day thou eatest of it thou shalt surely die. Show me what part of that constitutes free will.

You will say but man did eat of it so proving free will, but no he died~still God's will.

If he had eaten and lived and become all that the devil decieved him into thinking he would become THEN I would grant you he had free will.

#149 the totton linnet

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Posted 14 January 2010 - 05:19 AM

I can appreciate the points made in this thread by both parties. I think it's important that we weigh all points that scripture brings up in this area to get closer to the truth in its entirety (as much as God as shared with us in His word). 

About free will?

I thought I would submit a link to this video to see what others might think.  Thankfully this person has backed up his comments with scripture:

http://www.tangle.co...ebdba0b48b87949

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Hi Bex, I had a feeling you was hovering, oh I am so sorry, I have an utter aversion to these glossy vids, they are like brainwashing thingys, that big booming american voice, "God gave man free will" that was the first statement and the point at which I turned off....It just plain and simply is nowhere to be found in the bible.

That bold and bare statement is what makes me to challenge, any bold and bare statement about God will make me challenge it unless it is something God says about Himself. One thing is to be sure of. the argument will wax on in the church, it has for centuries now and by better brains than mine.

God says "I put before you life or death therefore choose life" now whatever man may choose it is not free will, if he chooses life praise God everybody is happy, God delights to give life, but if he chooses death it is still God's will.

Free will would be the position where man would say, I choose neither, I have an option of my own which is different and better.

#150 Bex

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Posted 14 January 2010 - 07:03 AM

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Hi Bex, I had a feeling you was hovering, oh I am so sorry, I have an utter aversion to these glossy vids, they are like brainwashing thingys, that big booming american voice, "God gave man free will" that was the first statement and the point at which I turned off....It just plain and simply is nowhere to be found in the bible.

That bold and bare statement is what makes me to challenge, any bold and bare statement about God will make me challenge it unless it is something God says about Himself. One thing is to be sure of. the argument will wax on in the church, it has for centuries now and by better brains than mine.

God says "I put before you life or death therefore choose life" now whatever man may choose it is not free will, if he chooses life praise God everybody is happy, God delights to give life, but if he chooses death it is still God's will.

Free will would be the position where man would say, I choose neither, I have an option of my own which is different and better.

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Hi Totton,

Thanks for your comments on free will. Interesting. I read your post a few times and do see where you're coming from (I think). :)

Certainly, if we "choose" to set our will against God, then we opt for death, so where is the freedom? To remain in sin and separation from God is hardly "freedom", but absolute captivity!

But isn't that still "willfully" choosing to turn from God? Does this not then equal freedom of choice ? I realise nobody is "set free" when they turn from God. That I understand. Perhaps I'm not explaining myself very well here...... :(

You didn't get past the first opening statement on the video before you made up your mind about it. The video is actually very plain and ordinary. It's not glossy nor glitzy as you've suggested. There is one guy who talks and is somewhat shadowed in the background, with scripture in large clear letters on screen.

You asked for scriptual back up to "free will"? I hoped that this may have given it for you. That does not mean I absolutely agree with everything he says, but I think the scripture he gives is a pretty powerful confirmation for "free will".

I would suggest that if his deep, clear (booming) voice annoys you, that you might like to turn the sound down a bit and give him a chance? I do understand how some people's voice do grate on a person (i'm the same). Personally I found him clear and easy to listen to. It maybe a bit of a robotic "droll" but what's important is the message being conveyed alongside scripture, which is why I posted it.

God bless.

#151 the totton linnet

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Posted 14 January 2010 - 09:12 AM

Hi Totton,

Thanks for your comments on free will.  Interesting. I read your post a few times and do see where you're coming from (I think).  :)

Certainly, if we "choose" to set our will against God, then we opt for death, so where is the freedom? To remain in sin and separation from God is hardly "freedom", but absolute captivity!

But isn't that still "willfully" choosing to turn from God?  Does this not then equal freedom of choice ?  I realise nobody is "set free" when they turn from God.  That I understand.  Perhaps I'm not explaining myself very well here...... :blink:

You didn't get past the first opening statement on the video before you made up your mind about it. The video is actually very plain and ordinary.  It's not glossy nor glitzy as you've suggested. There is one guy who talks and is somewhat shadowed in the background, with scripture in large clear letters on screen.

You asked for scriptual back up to "free will"? I hoped that this may have given it for you.  That does not mean I absolutely agree with everything he says, but I think the scripture he gives is a pretty powerful confirmation for "free will". 

I would suggest that if his deep, clear (booming) voice annoys you, that you might like to turn the sound down a bit and give him a chance?  I do understand how some people's voice do grate on a person (i'm the same).  Personally I found him clear and easy to listen to.  It maybe a bit of a robotic "droll" but what's important is the message being conveyed alongside scripture, which is why I posted it.

God bless.

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Well if there were no connundrum to be unpicked dear Bex people would not have been debating the issue with such ferocity for so long :) There is no doubt that largely the free-willers have won the day, at least for now, I am in the minority view. But I am unabashed. I have to apologise for my peculiarity, I just will not listen to anybody but scrupulously choose who I listen to, I wouldn't for example take upon myself to go to a JW or a Mormon sermon, someone will say "how then can you effectively witness to them?" well I can show them God's word.

I am not in any way implying free-willers are not saved, or that they do not love the Lord, they are just a different camp in the Lord's army.

If free will be true then God is responsible for man's sin but if He forbade man then man is responsible for sin. The act of forbidding is contrary to free will and imposes a penalty upon disobedience [death] yes there is choice but no man will choose death unless he is decieved and I maintain that the deception was [and is] free will "you will be like God knowing good and evil"

#152 ikester7579

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Posted 14 January 2010 - 11:11 PM

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The scripture must overide our logic, my position is quite clear, you asked me for a scripture which states we no longer have free will and I asked you for  scripture which says that free will is an attribute given to man. Free will is a deception, it does not exist [except in God]


Liberty is another word for freewill. I have already listed several verses containing liberty. Also, reversing the question does not remove responsibility for you to back up what you believe with scripture.

God said of every tree thou mayest eat freely but of the tree that is in the centre thou shalt not eat of it for in the day thou eatest of it thou shalt surely die. Show me what part of that constitutes free will.


If freewill was "absolutely" removed, the option to choose the tree, and the tree itself, would not have existed. And man would have been incapable of sin. Adam and Eve were created as perfect sinless beings, correct? So in our terms they would be considered saved because they were in this perfect state. Having the choice to sin, and fall from this perfection, is freewill. Just as much as Lucifer was able to do this in God's Heaven.

We are created a little lower than the angels.

Hebrews 2:6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man that thou visitest him?
7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:

But yet an angel can also fall. And 1/3 of them did fall while in Heaven where God is. So what makes us, here on earth, anymore better to not fall? Adam and Eve are actual examples of freewill and choice. The fallen angels are actual examples of freewill and choice. And in places you would not think freewill would exist.

And to take it a little further. In the 1,000 year reign. Do you know why Christ will rule and reign with a "rod"? Rod is a symbol of correction. So if freewill exist in the 1000 year reign, and in Heaven. We have to be prepared to go there and stay there. So the rod ends up being a tool for our correction. So that even though we have freewill, we will not make the wrong choice.

Question: If an angel can fall in Heaven, what keeps us from falling when we get to Heaven if we are not even created on equal level with angels? What makes our perfection better than the angels that they can fall and we cannot because we don't have freewill but they do?

You will say but man did eat of it so proving free will, but no he died~still God's will.


Here again you are using logic and no scripture. If you look at what I have posted compared to what you have posted. Who is backing up what they say with scripture? A denominational belief that does not use scripture is what?

If he had eaten and lived and become all that the devil decieved him into thinking he would become THEN I would grant you he had free will.

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That logic does not even work. Because you cannot obtain what someone tries to trick you into "thinking" you can get, does not mean you lost freewill because you fell for the trick.

With all due respect, and no offense. Unless you start using scripture, the debate with me on this subject is over. Logic or denominational belief does not override scripture. That is why I no longer adhere to any particular denomination. I could not say I have truth in the word when there was so much I had to deny just to belong to a denomination.

#153 the totton linnet

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Posted 15 January 2010 - 11:38 AM

Liberty is another word for freewill. I have already listed several verses containing liberty. Also, reversing the question does not remove responsibility for you to back up what you believe with scripture.
If freewill was "absolutely" removed, the option to choose the tree, and the tree itself, would not have existed. And man would have been incapable of sin. Adam and Eve were created as perfect sinless beings, correct? So in our terms they would be considered saved because they were in this perfect state. Having the choice to sin, and fall from this perfection, is freewill. Just as much as Lucifer was able to do this in God's Heaven.

We are created a little lower than the angels.

Hebrews 2:6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man that thou visitest him?
7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:

But yet an angel can also fall. And 1/3 of them did fall while in Heaven where God is. So what makes us, here on earth, anymore better to not fall? Adam and Eve are actual examples of freewill and choice. The fallen angels are actual examples of freewill and choice. And in places you would not think freewill would exist.

And to take it a little further. In the 1,000 year reign. Do you know why Christ will rule and reign with a "rod"? Rod is a symbol of correction. So if freewill exist in the 1000 year reign, and in Heaven. We have to be prepared to go there and stay there. So the rod ends up being a tool for our correction. So that even though we have freewill, we will not make the wrong choice.

Question: If an angel can fall in Heaven, what keeps us from falling when we get to Heaven if we are not even created on equal level with angels? What makes our perfection better than the angels that they can fall and we cannot because we don't have freewill but they do?
Here again you are using logic and no scripture. If you look at what I have posted compared to what you have posted. Who is backing up what they say with scripture? A denominational belief that does not use scripture is what?
That logic does not even work. Because you cannot obtain what someone tries to trick you into "thinking" you can get, does not mean you lost freewill because you fell for the trick.

With all due respect, and no offense. Unless you start using scripture, the debate with me on this subject is over. Logic or denominational belief does not override scripture. That is why I no longer adhere to any particular denomination. I could not say I have truth in the word when there was so much I had to deny just to belong to a denomination.

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"I lay before you life or death" is not free will both options are God's will

#154 ikester7579

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Posted 16 January 2010 - 02:34 AM

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"I lay before you life or death" is not free will both options are God's will

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But we have the freewill to choose.

Freewill: free will - the power of making free choices unconstrained by external agencies.

mt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

One cannot be blotted from the book of life unless he is already in it. What this means is that even though I may have salvation, and my name will appear in the book of life. There are action (freewill to sin) I can commit that will remove me from salvation and the book of life.

Side note: The reason the word blot, instead of removed is used. Is because a blotted out name cannot be re-entered. Which makes these verses make more since.

Hebrews 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3 And this will we do, if God permit.
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

The key words that show that you can have the freewill to lose your salvation are:

1) Renew them again. You cannot be renew again if you were not a new creature in Christ to begin with.
2) One cannot crucify the Son of God afresh, and put Him to open shame unless he has already accepted what Christ has done on the cross already. Christ died once, He is not an ongoing sacrafice. So He will not crawl back on the cross to renew someone again who fell away on purpose.

The rest of those verses show how much knowledge you have to have before you can fall away so far you cannot come back. What are they?

1) doctrine of baptisms.
2) laying on of hands.
3) resurrection of the dead.
4) eternal judgment.
5) once enlightened.
6) tasted of the heavenly gift (salvation).
7) partakers of the Holy Ghost.
8) tasted the good word of God.
9) powers of the world to come.

You see for God to give all that He has to someone, then have them fall away:

Excerpts from verses 4 and 6 that makes the verses more clear...
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance. seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

The 9 things listed is all God has to give us here on earth. To reject all that someone gives you out of love, puts them to shame.

But there is a brighter side to this as well. The new in Christ do not fit into this because they:

1) Do not have the knowledge.
2) Have not experienced all the gifts.

So if they fall away (err from truth}, it fits these verses.

James 5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

When verses contradict, it does not mean choose one or the other for truth. It means there is a situation (condition) that is different that makes the conclusion different. You have to find what that different situation is. Like the example with the next verse:

heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

You would say: eternal salvation means we have no freewill once saved. That is if you take the word it out of context of that verse. There is a condition added at the end of the verse that says that this eternal salvation exist unto all that "obey" Him.

Every place where salvation is mentioned as a no freewill choice after being accepted has a condition attached to it.

#155 Bex

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Posted 16 January 2010 - 04:31 AM

Comments/verses taken from the video posted earlier:


No free will? What does scripture say?


The word "willfully" dissected:

1. Voluntarily

2. Willingly

3. Of ones own accord


Why would God warn us about sinning willfully if we have no free will?


Hebrews 10:26-27

"For if we go on sinning willfully after acquiring the knowledge of the truth, there is no longer left any sacrifice for sins, but some dreadful anticipation of judgment and of a fierce fire that is to devour those who oppose God."


Numbers 15:1-4

1The LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 2"Speak to the people of Israel and say to them, When you come into the land you are to inhabit, which I am giving you, 3and you offer to the LORD from the herd or from the flock a food offering[a] or a burnt offering or a sacrifice, to fulfill a vow or as a freewill offering or at your appointed feasts, to make a pleasing aroma to the LORD


Numbers 15:22-29 (differences between sins of ignorance and sinning willfully, please look it up and read them).


1 Peter 5:2

Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;


1 Corinthians 9:17

For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.



Another similar greek word for "willingly" is hekon, which means:

1. Unforced

2. Voluntary

3. Willing (Of ones own will, of ones own accord).


Edit: Added more verses not mentioned on the video:


Matthew 23:37

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under [her] wings, but you were not willing!


John 5:40

"But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life."



God the Father knew what would happen in advance (evidenced by the prophets before Christ), yet Christ still had free will:


John 10:17-18

For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again. 18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord.



#156 the totton linnet

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Posted 16 January 2010 - 06:46 AM

Comments/verses taken from the video posted earlier:
No free will?  What does scripture say?
The word "willfully" dissected:

1. Voluntarily

2. Willingly

3. Of ones own accord
Why would God warn us about sinning willfully if we have no free will?


Hebrews 10:26-27
Numbers 15:1-4
Numbers 15:22-29 (differences between sins of ignorance and sinning willfully, please look it up and read them).
1 Peter 5:2
1 Corinthians 9:17
Another similar greek word for "willingly" is hekon, which means:

1. Unforced

2. Voluntary

3. Willing (Of ones own will, of ones own accord).
Edit: Added more verses not mentioned on the video:
Matthew 23:37
John 5:40
God the Father knew what would happen in advance (evidenced by the prophets before Christ), yet Christ still had free will:
John 10:17-18

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Sister Bex I am perfectly willing for others to have the last say in matters of doctrine even if it would seem to concede the argument, God is able to establish His truth and it was right to testify against what I see as a wrong doctrine, though not neccesarily involving salvation but one which I believe does much harm in evangelism and in the church and in the individual life of one who believes they have free will. Whole books could and have been written why that is so, unfortunately mostly if not all by brethren that adhere rigidly to Calvin.

Scripture has to be weighed and one against the other, you can't really say on the one hand that Jerusalem had the free will to accept or reject Christ and as well that He was delivered up by the predeterminate counsel and will of God to be crucified for us.

The point is that Christ and His gospel and His kingdom when He came is so fashioned [preplanned] to ensure it's rejection by those [acting in accordance with the greed and lust for power within them] who had pushed their way into places of authority [this is where federal headship comes into play] Jesus said to Pilate "you would have no power were it not given you from above, therefore he who delivered me up has the greater sin." God is not responsible for man's sin but He controls and manages it, Why Pharoah? why Hitler? mercifully only God sees what the hearts and minds of men are really like.

But whether men choose good or evil, life or death, their choosing does not empower them to do or to be either. Neither does either choice at any time take man out of God's will.

This is why the supposition that a man once saved could lose their salvation [this doctrine neccesarily flows from the free will camp] is such an abhorrence to people who believe that our salvation was planned in the eternal counsels of the blest trinity. Hard on the heels of this comes the idea that perhaps far from God knowing and fore-knowing ALL THINGS perhaps He doesn't know very much at all. Then neccesarily if He does not know all things perhaps He has not power over all things. People just getting further and further away from the God of the bible.

My Father is one who Knows ALL and SEES all even the sparrow that falls to the ground, not just that he sees but the scripture actually reads "not a sparrow will fall to the ground without the Father" and if He plans the life of sparrows He certainly plans our lives.

#157 the totton linnet

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Posted 16 January 2010 - 07:02 AM

But we have the freewill to choose.

Freewill: free will - the power of making free choices unconstrained by external agencies.

mt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

One cannot be blotted from the book of life unless he is already in it. What this means is that even though I may have salvation, and my name will appear in the book of life. There are action (freewill to sin) I can commit that will remove me from salvation and the book of life.

Side note: The reason the word blot, instead of removed is used. Is because a blotted out name cannot be re-entered. Which makes these verses make more since.

Hebrews 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3 And this will we do, if God permit.
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

The key words that show that you can have the freewill to lose your salvation are:

1) Renew them again. You cannot be renew again if you were not a new creature in Christ to begin with.
2) One cannot crucify the Son of God afresh, and put Him to open shame unless he has already accepted what Christ has done on the cross already. Christ died once, He is not an ongoing sacrafice. So He will not crawl back on the cross to renew someone again who fell away on purpose.

The rest of those verses show how much knowledge you have to have before you can fall away so far you cannot come back. What are they?

1) doctrine of baptisms.
2) laying on of hands.
3) resurrection of the dead.
4) eternal judgment.
5) once enlightened.
6) tasted of the heavenly gift (salvation).
7) partakers of the Holy Ghost.
8) tasted the good word of God.
9) powers of the world to come.

You see for God to give all that He has to someone, then have them fall away:

Excerpts from verses 4 and 6 that makes the verses more clear...
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance. seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

The 9 things listed is all God has to give us here on earth. To reject all that someone gives you out of love, puts them to shame.

But there is a brighter side to this as well. The new in Christ do not fit into this because they:

1) Do not have the knowledge.
2) Have not experienced all the gifts.

So if they fall away (err from truth}, it fits these verses.

James 5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

When verses contradict, it does not mean choose one or the other for truth. It means there is a situation (condition) that is different that makes the conclusion different. You have to find what that different situation is. Like the example with the next verse:

heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

You would say: eternal salvation means we have no freewill once saved. That is if you take the word it out of context of that verse. There is a condition added at the end of the verse that says that this eternal salvation exist unto all that "obey" Him.

Every place where salvation is mentioned as a no freewill choice after being accepted has a condition attached to it.

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I say to you Isaac as I said to Bex you are welcome to have the last word, I have stated my view. The BIG word in that Hebrews passage for me is IF, IF THEY FALL AWAY. It is wholly hypothetical and one who is truly saved does no fall away so as to lose their "eternal" salvation they are as the writer of Hebrews says "dear friends we trust to see better of YOU and things which accompany salvation." There is room there for thinking that those who [hypothetically] fall away never experienced the things that accompany salvation,
that nice list of goodies you mention.
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But if you want to put your trust in such a flimsy thing as man's whimsies and will welcome you are, I have put my trust in one who does not change according to the weather. [as we do]

#158 Dave

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Posted 16 January 2010 - 09:47 AM

The BIG word in that Hebrews passage for me is IF, IF THEY FALL AWAY. It is wholly hypothetical and one who is truly saved does no fall away so as to lose their "eternal" salvation. ... There is room there for thinking that those who [hypothetically] fall away never experienced the things that accompany salvation, that nice list of goodies you mention."

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Suzanne,

You hit the nail right on the head with the correct interpretation of that perplexing Hebrew verse.

Also, keep in mind the three aspects of salvation. Spirit, Soul and Body.

No -- You cannot lose salvation of the spirit. The Holy Spirit indwells believers once and forever. You are guaranteed to at least enter into eternity with Christ in the Millennium and afterward in the New Heaven. That is justification.

Yes -- You can lose salvation of your soul -- your mind, will and emotions -- because of unrepentant sin and the lack of good works as a saved person. This "loss of salvation" is manifested in loss of rewards at the Judgment Seat of Christ. With insufficient rewards you will only enter into the Millennium and New Heaven, but if you have sufficient rewards you will enter into, but also reign with Christ in the Millennium and New Heaven. Otherwise, you lose this part of your salvation. This is sanctification.

Yes -- Body: You can sin so much as a believer that God will take your life. You will still physically rise to join him with a new body, however, at the end. This is glorification.

The "lose your salvation" verses quoted in the post above should be examined in light of these differences. Sadly, they are often not, and that's where the confusion arises.

Dave

#159 ikester7579

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Posted 16 January 2010 - 01:22 PM

So now the Bible gives hypothetical warnings? So now we pick out which verses are hypothetical? Who is the hypothetical expert, and where does one go to learn how to determine this? Is there a hypothetical class 101?

Why give a warning at all if it's not true (a lie)? Because anytime you deem the word a lie, even hypothetically, you are also deeming the one who inspired it to lie also.

Is the Bible "all" truth or not? You see this was another reason I converted to no-osas (the belief you can lose salvation). I found myself making parts of God's word into phrases where I claimed there was no truth. Is that right when it's all supposed to be true?

So when you apply hypothetical verses, you give power to those who would also apply this to creation and the rest of the Bible. What would you say if I now said: Since losing slvation is hypothetical, is not taking creation literally the same because the natural evidence supports it? And if you say no, then I say: Who determines what is hypothetical here? What makes such a suggestion correct when the Bible is absolute truth, not the implied truth? Because once hypothetical ideas are inserted into one part of the word, where does it stop, and who determines this?

You see this is dangerous ground. It harms the Word on so many levels I cannot even begin to express. I have even wittnessed believers doing this to the parables because other bretheren made it okay sounding to imply hypothetical meanings to anything you wanted. And this was all steming from: Predestination-osas, and no freewill.

So by implying the hypothetical meaning, are you protecting a wanted denominational belief, or what the Word says is true? Because either the Word is true and it's inspirer as well. Or it's not. One doubt opens the door to doubt it all and is the very reason it's either all true, are all lies. God and His word does not hedge the fence between truth and lies. This is because He is perfect. Complete absolute holy rightous perfection requires it. Does inserted hypotheitical meanings into the word to support a denimintional belief support any of that?

So now I have to wonder if I am hypothetically saved?

You see, you or me do not make the realities of salvation. What God's word says does. Inserting hypothetical sections into the word when they disagree with "our denominational" beliefs. Is making our own reality.

Let's reverse this for a minute so you don't take offense and view this on the level I do.

During this debate, for every opposing verse or view you present. If I insert that this is hypothetical (your verses) to make what I believe right and undebatable for truth. Does it make what I believe true by default?

So you see the insertion of implying doubt now has more power over truth because doubt is like a bad seed once planted produces bad fruit. Now why would a denominational belief require this?

#160 the totton linnet

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Posted 17 January 2010 - 06:19 AM

So now the Bible gives hypothetical warnings? So now we pick out which verses are hypothetical? Who is the hypothetical expert, and where does one go to learn how to determine this? Is there a hypothetical class 101?

Why give a warning at all if it's not true (a lie)? Because anytime you deem the word a lie, even hypothetically, you are also deeming the one who inspired it to lie also.

Is the Bible "all" truth or not? You see this was another reason I converted to no-osas (the belief you can lose salvation). I found myself making parts of God's word into phrases where I claimed there was no truth. Is that right when it's all supposed to be true?

So when you apply hypothetical verses, you give power to those who would also apply this to creation and the rest of the Bible. What would you say if I now said: Since losing slvation is hypothetical, is not taking creation literally the same because the natural evidence supports it? And if you say no, then I say: Who determines what is hypothetical here? What makes such a suggestion correct when the Bible is absolute truth, not the implied truth? Because once hypothetical ideas are inserted into one part of the word, where does it stop, and who determines this?

You see this is dangerous ground. It harms the Word on so many levels I cannot even begin to express. I have even wittnessed believers doing this to the parables because other bretheren made it okay sounding to imply hypothetical meanings to anything you wanted. And this was all steming from: Predestination-osas, and no freewill.

So by implying the hypothetical meaning, are you protecting a wanted denominational belief, or what the Word says is true? Because either the Word is true and it's inspirer as well. Or it's not. One doubt opens the door to doubt it all and is the very reason it's either all true, are all lies. God and His word does not hedge the fence between truth and lies. This is because He is perfect. Complete absolute holy rightous perfection requires it. Does inserted hypotheitical meanings into the word to support a denimintional belief support any of that?

So now I have to wonder if I am hypothetically saved?

You see, you or me do not make the realities of salvation. What God's word says does. Inserting hypothetical sections into the word when they disagree with "our denominational" beliefs. Is making our own reality.

Let's reverse this for a minute so you don't take offense and view this on the level I do.

During this debate, for every opposing verse or view you present. If I insert that this is hypothetical (your verses) to make what I believe right and undebatable for truth. Does it make what I believe true by default?

So you see the insertion of implying doubt now has more power over truth because doubt is like a bad seed once planted produces bad fruit. Now why would a denominational belief require this?

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And yet you are quite happy to claim that God gave you a free will which doesn't have ANY scripture at all. Can you find one to say you came to Jesus of your own free will, I can show you plenty which say unless God did the pulling




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