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#201 ikester7579

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Posted 09 March 2010 - 10:25 AM

Controlled salvation means that God is controlling every aspect of our lives. It means we are predestined. But there are other problems with that. God is perfect, so to have absolute control minus our freewill means that saved or unsaved that type of control would make us all perfect.

1) Does God make us sin, or is sin a choice?
2) Do we sin after we are saved? Through predestination, God becomes the author of sin because our freewill to do it is taken away.

Making us all perfect through predestination means the saved and unsaved will enter Heaven. It promotes a type of universalism which is a belief that everyone is good enough to enter Heaven.

A perfect being, being in total control over our lifes, makes our lives as perfect as His. But that is not what we see, is it? So either we have freewill, which makes us responsible for our choices which includes our sin. Or we are not which makes God responsible and the author of sin. Which makes us to be on equal footing with God. Which I don't think you believe that man can be God.

#202 jason777

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Posted 14 March 2010 - 09:34 PM

We were born into sin and even if we don't want to anymore, we are constantly tempted and lied to by the enemy and no one is going to make it as flawlessly as Jesus did. Is it God's will for us to sin? Absolutely not. It's his will to declare justice to he whom which it came into the world. All sin is spiritual and will leave when Jesus binds the enemy in chains and begins 1000 years of peace. ;) Without Satan there is no sin. I'm just disappointed he did'nt do it 6,000 years ago. :unsure: But God sees it as we are all dead through Adam, so he does'nt owe us any favors just an option for a second chance through the cross of Jesus.

In all honesty, only a corrupt justice system would try to hang me for something my grandfather did. :huh:



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#203 Bex

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Posted 14 March 2010 - 10:53 PM

We were born into sin and even if we don't want to anymore, we are constantly tempted and lied to by the enemy and no one is going to make it as flawlessly as Jesus did. Is it God's will for us to sin? Absolutely not. It's his will to declare justice to he whom which it came into the world. All sin is spiritual and will leave when Jesus binds the enemy in chains and begins 1000 years of peace. ;)  Without Satan there is no sin. I'm just disappointed he did'nt do it 6,000 years ago. :unsure:  But God sees it as we are all dead through Adam, so he does'nt owe us any favors just an option for a second chance through the cross of Jesus.

In all honesty, only a corrupt justice system would try to hang me for something my grandfather did. :huh: 
Enjoy.

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Unfortunately, even with Satan bound for the 1000 years, people will still be able to sin. Though without the major influence of Satan, and with Christ reigning in our hearts/minds/lives during those 1000 years, and a much favorable environment to holiness, it will sadly still take place, as you can see in the quote below. However, such a person will die early (punished) and 100 years of age will be considered that of a youth in those times.

Isaiah 65:20

20There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.


We cannot blame Satan for everything by claiming "He made me do it", otherwise it would be Satan facing God and being judged for OUR wrong doings instead of us after death. On the contrary, WE will be facing Christ the judge. Satan can only encourage us to give into temptation, try and move us in the direction of sin and away from Christ. It is when we entertain and act upon sinful temptations, instead of turning and relying upon the grace of Christ and turning away from such things that we get ourselves into trouble.

Even at the end of the 1000 years when Satan is loosed, he already has more than enough targets to lead astray, for already it appears people being people, tend to forget God.

Revelation 20:7,8

7When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


Gog and Magog: symbols of all pagan nations; the names are taken from Ezekiel 38:1-39:20.

The only time the world will be entirely and eternally free from sin is when the sheep and the goats are separated at the time of the end - The final ressurection, when Satan is thrown into the lake of fire and never again released.

#204 chipwag64

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Posted 20 March 2010 - 08:05 AM

Fred,

Concerning your post #196:
When discussing "election", you must read the context of the verse where you find the word and it will tell you the purpose for the "election". I agree whole-heartedly that election in the context is not to salvation.
Speaking of "election", I read your post # 46. Even in "Calvinism" election involves a personal choice; again, the context will tell you who made the personal choice and when the choice was made. Your George Bush analogy MIGHT work if the "election" was done when people existed, but Ephesians 1:4 tells ME that the election took place "before the foundation of the world".
My mind is made up to accept 2 Peter 3:9 just the way it is written, the "all" has to refer to something, and again, for the third time, the context will tell you what that is.
As far as evangelism, you have stated over and over again that it is futile to evangelize as a "Calvinist" and that it has ZERO outcome, but you just said in post # 194 that you have known many "Calvinists" who have won many to the Lord???
Listen Fred, this is HOW people become believers!! through the gospel, whether God knew beforehand who would believe or not. Read Romans 1:16, Ephesians 1:13, 2 Thess 2:14 etc.
Now, getting to the heart of the OT view, I want you to think hard and carefully about what you believe and have said sofar in this thread.
You gave two options of how the future is created.
1) God has decrees that cannot be thwarted by anyone or anything.
2) God uses human "free will" to help create the not yet existent future as long as it doesn't conflict with His plans and purposes. God can look into peoples hearts and minds to see how they will react with 100% accuracy - (post # 70).

I agree with #1, I also agree that people have freedom to make choices, I agree that God knows our hearts and minds. What I don't understand, as I have said all along is this:
If God knows with 100% accuracy what people WILL do before they do it, such as Peter's tri-denial of Christ, then how is this not foreknowledge??
If it is 100% accurate, it can't possibly change or it wont be 100% accurate.
You keep talking about God "changing" the future, and I keep asking "what" God is changing?? If the future doesn't exist, you can't change something that doesn't exist.
As I read other peoples understanding of OT, they believe that God "knows" all the variables of human choice, but not the final choice. They believe that God foresees the most likely and probable choice, but not 100% accurate.
You seem to have said this also which confuses me.
On one hand, you say that God "knows" how someone most likely WOULD, or all the possible ways that they COULD choose, without knowing the final choice.
On the other hand, you also say, as above, that God "knows" with 100% accuracy how someone WILL choose.
So, in your view, which one is it? is it both? I really don't understand.
This is why I have asked how God could put His only begotten Son through all the humiliation, pain and suffering without "knowing" (with 100% accuracy) if any people would benefit.
You said in post # 7 that "God "knew" that some men WOULD (not could) choose His free gift. Did you mean to say "could"?
If you agree with 1 Peter 1:20, that Jesus coming into this world to save sinners was known before the foundation of the world; what does that mean to you?
All I can figure out is that you see this as some kind of a backup plan, just in case people might sin and need a Savior.
In other words, the Godhead foresaw the possibility that all of mankind would sin and need a Savior, so Jesus said "Well, if that happens, I'll be on standby ready to suffer and die, but lets hope it doesn't come to that".

I truly hope that you can see how confusing this all is.

#205 Fred Williams

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Posted 10 April 2010 - 12:18 PM

When discussing "election", you must read the context of the verse where you find the word and it will tell you the purpose for the "election". I agree whole-heartedly that election in the context is not to salvation.

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Sorry for the delay in responding, it’s been a hectic few weeks getting ready for taxes (among a myriad of other things).

I’m glad you admit that election does not always mean salvation, most Calvinists won’t do so. So there is hope. :lol:

Ephesians 1:4 tells ME that the election took place "before the foundation of the world".


Eph 1:4-6 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.

There are three reasonable ways to interpret this:
1) God predestined all believers ions ago, before we were conceived,
2) God pre-destined the church (body of believers),
3) God pre-destined believers to be conformed to the image of Christ.

All three work by themselves, but when considering all of scripture, only 2 & 3 work. Interpretation #1 cannot work without re-interpreting the plain meaning of 100s of other verses throughout the Bible. Case in point:

My mind is made up to accept 2 Peter 3:9 just the way it is written, the "all" has to refer to something


So I again ask you to explain how God could be long suffering for only certain people to be saved, if He had already decided their fate ahead of time? Why be long suffering? You see, accepting #1 requires one to hold contrary and illogical views. Views 2 & 3 require little if any calisthenics. In fact, 3 requires no calisthenics at all.

As far as evangelism, you have stated over and over again that it is futile to evangelize as a "Calvinist" and that it has ZERO outcome, but you just said in post # 194 that you have known many "Calvinists" who have won many to the Lord???


Chip, you are being remarkably dense. You are both putting words in my mouth (I never said evangelizing has ZERO outcome) and you are missing the point. I have said many times that I know Calvinists who have won souls to the Lord. I submit this occurred in spite of a theology that makes it a pointless venture. If Calvinism is true, there is ZERO value in the act of evangelizing since their fate was already determined before they evangelized! This demonic doctrine (and that is exactly what it is) can only serve to keep people from evangelizing who otherwise would have if they had not fallen for this false doctrine of pre-destination.

Chip, I would embrace individual pre-destination if the Bible supported it. But the Bible doesn't. For many years I went through the same mind gymnastics as you are doing, mostly because what I heard from the pulpit and theologians. There is no need for this, there is an answer to this problem, and the answer comes from plain, straightforward reading of scripture that solves the handful of these misunderstood pre-destination verses. Too often Christians have relied on surface interpretation of these handful of verses, at the cost of the plain meaning of 100s of other scripture. This problem has been exacerbated by theologians who try to build a doctrine around it and teach it in the pulpit to well-meaning Christians who unfortunately rely on these men's views instead of digging in to find out the truth for themselves. Now off my soap box and on to another! :lol: You’ve got some good questions about OT, I’ll try to address them in the Open Theology thread.

Fred

#206 deadlock

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Posted 17 April 2010 - 08:24 PM

It doesn't matter which way the arrow points, either direction is infinity, so the logical dilemma is that any one point of "time" on that line ;)  :)  :)  :)  can't exist. :)

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You are begging the question. We are exactly discussing if it´s infinite in both direction.I gave you a logical reason why it´s infinite only in one direction ( The Future ).You havent given any logical reason why do you believe it´s infinite in the other direction ( Past ).

#207 Teejay

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Posted 01 April 2011 - 08:39 AM

Sorry for the delay in responding, it’s been a hectic few weeks getting ready for taxes (among a myriad of other things).

I’m glad you admit that election does not always mean salvation, most Calvinists won’t do so. So there is hope. :)
Eph 1:4-6 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,  having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,  to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.

There are three reasonable ways to interpret this:
1) God predestined all believers ions ago, before we were conceived,
2) God pre-destined the church (body of believers),
3) God pre-destined believers to be conformed to the image of Christ.

All three work by themselves, but when considering all of scripture, only 2 & 3 work.  Interpretation #1 cannot work without re-interpreting the plain meaning of 100s of other verses throughout the Bible. Case in point:
So I again ask you to explain how God could be long suffering for only certain people to be saved, if He had already decided their fate ahead of time? Why be long suffering? You see, accepting #1 requires one to hold contrary and illogical views. Views 2 & 3 require little if any calisthenics. In fact, 3 requires no calisthenics at all.
Chip, you are being remarkably dense. You are both putting words in my mouth (I never said evangelizing has ZERO outcome) and you are missing the point. I have said many times that I know Calvinists who have won souls to the Lord. I submit this occurred in spite of a theology that makes it a pointless venture. If Calvinism is true, there is ZERO value in the act of evangelizing since their fate was already determined before they evangelized! This demonic doctrine (and that is exactly what it is) can only serve to keep people from evangelizing who otherwise would have if they had not fallen for this false doctrine of pre-destination.

Chip, I would embrace individual pre-destination if the Bible supported it. But the Bible doesn't. For many years I went through the same mind gymnastics as you are doing, mostly because what I heard from the pulpit and theologians. There is no need for this, there is an answer to this problem, and the answer comes from plain, straightforward reading of scripture that solves the handful of these misunderstood pre-destination verses. Too often Christians have relied on surface interpretation of these handful of verses, at the cost of the plain meaning of 100s of other scripture. This problem has been exacerbated by theologians who try to build a doctrine around it and teach it in the pulpit to well-meaning Christians who unfortunately rely on these men's views instead of digging in to find out the truth for themselves. Now off my soap box and on to another! :) You’ve got some good questions about OT, I’ll try to address them in the Open Theology thread.

Fred

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Fred, I got in on this discussion rather late, but I would like to present a few questions to Closed Theists or those who believe in Predestination:

If God "predestined some to go to hell before the foundation of the earth," there should be many babies who perished in the Flood for example, in hell. Right? But this flies in the face of Deut. 1:39 where God says that "little ones do not have the knowledge of good and evil." Now be forewarned: I have had hard core Calvinists proclaim that there are indeed infants in hell "because God knew what sins they would commit in the future." But I always argue that it's not possible for God to grant man free will to love or hate Him and then know IF we will love or hate him. This is not possible even for God.

God knew who would go to hell "before the foundation of the world." How can God know you before you exist. This is not possible. God can't know the unknowable. But He can know everything knowable that He needs or wants to know.

Teejay

#208 Fred Williams

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Posted 02 April 2011 - 08:22 AM

Fred, I got in on this discussion rather late, but I would like to present a few questions to Closed Theists or those who believe in Predestination:

If God "predestined some to go to hell before the foundation of the earth," there should be many babies who perished in the Flood for example, in hell.  Right?  But this flies in the face of Deut. 1:39 where God says that "little ones do not have the knowledge of good and evil."  Now be forewarned:  I have had hard core Calvinists proclaim that there are indeed infants in hell "because God knew what sins they would commit in the future."  But I always argue that it's not possible for God to grant man free will to love or hate Him and then know IF we will love or hate him.  This is not possible even for God.

God knew who would go to hell "before the foundation of the world."  How can God know you before you exist.  This is not possible.  God can't know the unknowable.  But He can know everything knowable that He needs or wants to know.

Teejay

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Thanks Teejay, great points. I also wonder why God would "pre-destine" Paul to first be saved, then not, then saved again. :) Note that Paul was spiritually saved before he knew the law, and when he became aware of the law he immediately died spiritually (see Romans 7:9-11). When he accepted Christ as Lord and Savior, he became spiritually alive again.

Romans 7:9-11 shows that no babies who die go to hell, yet another problem for the TULIP crowd.

Fred

#209 AFJ

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Posted 03 April 2011 - 05:30 AM

Peter says we are (KJV) "predesinated according to the foreknowledge."

To God’s elect, strangers in the world, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia,  2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood: 

Grace and peace be yours in abundance.[1] 


I have always taken it this way. I have to disagree with teejay on this one. I am not Calvinist, but God does know the end from the beginning. Jesus knew Judas was the son of perdition, but chose him anyway, to complete the work of Calvary. He didn't make Judas a devil, Judas had free will--Jesus knew the decision he would make--foreknowledge. On the other hand, he also knew Peter would deny him, but knew he would repent. He foreknew both Peter and Judas, and their personal decisions.

He also foreknew who would be babies in the flood, and that they would never come to a point of decision about right and wrong. Therefore they are innocent. It's not a big deal, because God foreknew.

When proverbs says... "

The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil."Proverbs 16:4


...does that mean he made one evil and one good. Of course not. But He FOREKNEW who would make the wrong decision--and here's the point--HE MADE THEM ANYWAY!!!!

Don't Calvinists think that God, if He willed, could have spared a soul that he knew would WILLINGLY turn away from him? Of course he could have, and then there would have been only people who would WILLINGLY serve him.

But God's plan included the central theme of REDEMPTION. That is "the Lamb of God." Who was chosen to be the Lamb "from the foundation of the world."

Do Calvinists think the fall of Lucifer was caused by God, or that Lucifer was made with evil inside him? The scripture says God created him perfect. To say that God did not know that Lucifer was going to rebell is to say God is not all knowing!! To say that God programmed Lucifer to rebell is to lay personal blame at God's feet. God is just, and no one can lay blame at his feet.

Do Calvinists think the fall of man was programmed by God? No, it was known and allowed by God ino order to fulfill is divine plan. God did not PROGRAM Adam and Eve. He obviously TESTED them by giving them a CHOICE. The tree of life and the tree of knowledge of good and evil was the choice that made Adam and Eve FREE MORAL AGENTS.

But God knew the end from the beginning. He tests and gives choices to all men. And only HE knows the results, we don't. We only have choices.

One last thing--does that mean we are left to ourselves?? Of course not. God's grace draws sinners and gives his elect assurance that they are saved--God is carrying and covering us by the work of Calvary--even when we are not paying attention like we should!!

So..."5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart,
and do not lean on your own understanding.
6 In all your ways acknowledge him,
and he will make straight your paths.
7 Be not wise in your own eyes;
fear the Lord, and turn away from evil.
8 It will be healing to your fleshb
and refreshmentc to your bones."
Proverbs 3:5-8

#210 ikester7579

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Posted 03 April 2011 - 09:41 PM

Peter says we are (KJV) "predesinated according to the foreknowledge." 
I have always taken it this way.  I have to disagree with teejay on this one.  I am not Calvinist, but God does know the end from the beginning. Jesus knew Judas was the son of perdition, but chose him anyway, to complete the work of Calvary.  He didn't make Judas a devil, Judas had free will--Jesus knew the decision he would make--foreknowledge.  On the other hand, he also knew Peter would deny him, but knew he would repent.  He foreknew both Peter and Judas, and their personal decisions.

He also foreknew who would be babies in the flood, and that they would never come to a point of decision about right and wrong.  Therefore they are innocent.  It's not a big deal, because God foreknew.

When proverbs says... "
...does that mean he made one evil and one good.   Of course not.  But He FOREKNEW who would make the wrong decision--and here's the point--HE MADE THEM ANYWAY!!!!

Don't Calvinists think that God, if He willed, could have spared a soul that he knew would WILLINGLY turn away from him?  Of course he could have, and then there would have been only people who would WILLINGLY serve him.

But God's plan included the central theme of REDEMPTION.  That is "the Lamb of God."  Who was chosen to be the Lamb "from the foundation of the world."

Do Calvinists think the fall of Lucifer was caused by God, or that Lucifer was made with evil inside him?  The scripture says God created him perfect.  To say that God did not know that Lucifer was going to rebell is to say God is not all knowing!!  To say that God programmed Lucifer to rebell is to lay personal blame at God's feet.  God is just, and no one can lay blame at his feet.

Do Calvinists think the fall of man was programmed by God?  No, it was known and allowed by God ino order to fulfill is divine plan.   God did not PROGRAM Adam and Eve.  He obviously TESTED them by giving them a CHOICE.  The tree of life and the tree of knowledge of good and evil was the choice that made Adam and Eve FREE MORAL AGENTS.

But God knew the end from the beginning.  He tests and gives choices to all men.  And only HE knows the results, we don't.  We only have choices.

One last thing--does that mean we are left to ourselves?? Of course not.  God's grace draws sinners and gives his elect assurance that they are saved--God is carrying and covering us by the work of Calvary--even when we are not paying attention like we should!!

So..."5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart,
and do not lean on your own understanding.
6 In all your ways acknowledge him,
and he will make straight your paths.
7 Be not wise in your own eyes;
fear the Lord, and turn away from evil.
8 It will be healing to your fleshb
and refreshmentc to your bones." 
Proverbs 3:5-8

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With due respect to anyone who believes this predestination stuff...

I guess we are puppets and our God is our puppet master. No freewill because we are all predestined, correct? So let's apply this to the Christian life shall we?

If we are all predestined:

1) Why try to save the unsaved sinner? If they are predestined for Hell then we waste our time. In fact your efforts here are in vain because how do you know that the person you debate has not been predetermined for Hell?
2) Why even have churches? Churches are for us to get closer to God, and bring the unsaved to salvation. But if we are all predestined, then like the movie the matrix, our works are in vain because predestination determines whether we go to Heaven or not, not what Christ did on the cross.
3) Why repent and ask for forgiveness? If we are all predestined then our prayers are in vain as well.
4) Why read the Bible? If we are all predestined then reading the Bible is not going to make any difference.
5) Why worry about sin? If we are all predestined then sin does not matter. Sin all we want, it cannot change a thing if we are predestined, correct?

etc.... I can go on and on, on how wrong this is. In fact, this borders on universalism. Which is a belief that only the really really bad go to Hell and everyone else, saved or not, ends up in Heaven. Predestination means that you don't need salvation because your destination has already been predetermined.

Predetermined means our efforts are in vain.

Examples:
1) Would you put all the effort, money and time into racing when you find out that every race has a predetermined winner? Your efforts for winning by shear driving skill and the fastness of your car means nothing. And one day, if the person who determines this allows it (the puppet master of racing), you might be allowed to win a race.
2) Would you pay to play the lotto if you found out that every drawing has a predetermined winner? What would be the point, if you knew your hard earned dollar was always going to someone else predetermined?
3) Would you put your efforts into sports if you found out every game always had predetermined winner?
4) And as a spectator to sports and racing, would you still be interested in such things when you found out it's all fixed and there is nothing no one can do?

So if our salvation and damnation are predetermined as you say, then we should sit back and do nothing, right? But then again, that is what is wrong with Christainity. Hardly anyone lifts a finger anymore. Maybe that's the reason predestination is so appealing?

Question: Why should a Christian fight the good fight when the outcome is predetermined already? Because if that's the case my years of effort here and on my website were a waste of time.

You see predestined is just that. The Bible never says we are predestined "without choice".

Example: If I tell you that you were predestined to sing, does that mean that is all you will do, or do you have a choice? You see anytime our freewill is totally 100% taken away, we can no longer be held responsible for our actions. Why? We did not have the freewill to make the choices we did because our choices were predestined.

Let me put it another way. This predestination goes along the same lines as the claim that a gene will make you g*y. In other words they were predestined to be that way. So if you apply that same logic, there would be genes for murder, rape, ped*philia, etc.... And because no one can control themselves because their genes think for them, then everyone is now innocent. Sin is no longer sin, and no one can ever be guilty.

#211 AFJ

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Posted 12 July 2011 - 04:32 PM

And I am late also. I like to defend God and his righteousness in this subject. Saying children are in hell because God "knew" what they would do. Well, if He knew what they would do, but they didn't reach the age to do it, then He was wrong about what they would do, because they didn't do it, did they!! Sorry, that just really flusters me folks. God isn't wrong about anything.

Peter says we are predestinated according to the foreknowledge of God. And Proverbs says God made the wicked for the day of judgement. Now, taking those two verses, one could say "see, God knows who will go to hell, and he made them that way." Well I agree God knows who will go to hell, but here's something to consider on the second part, that I haven't ever heard anyone say about the Proverbs passage. Say God knows your brother is going to hell, and that's where he'll go. So in the process of making your brother's soul, God in his foreknowledge knew your brother would willingly reject Christ. But guess what, God made him anyway, and sent the Spirit to convict him of his sins, but he would not come to Christ, nor would he listen to the wooings of the Spirit. So he goes to hell. God made him, and worked in his life to show him what was right. But in going to hell, he shows God's judgement against sin, just as all the wicked will do. So God made the wicked, but he didn't make them that way--they chose. He knew they would reject, but he made them anyway.

Does that make God unrighteous? I'm not going to blame God for someone else's choice. If you want to, you can stand before him and let Him know that.

#212 Fred Williams

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Posted 13 July 2011 - 11:10 AM

And I am late also. I like to defend God and his righteousness in this subject. Saying children are in hell because God "knew" what they would do. Well, if He knew what they would do, but they didn't reach the age to do it, then He was wrong about what they would do, because they didn't do it, did they!! Sorry, that just really flusters me folks. God isn't wrong about anything.

Peter says we are predestinated according to the foreknowledge of God. And Proverbs says God made the wicked for the day of judgement. Now, taking those two verses, one could say "see, God knows who will go to hell, and he made them that way." Well I agree God knows who will go to hell, but here's something to consider on the second part, that I haven't ever heard anyone say about the Proverbs passage. Say God knows your brother is going to hell, and that's where he'll go. So in the process of making your brother's soul, God in his foreknowledge knew your brother would willingly reject Christ. But guess what, God made him anyway, and sent the Spirit to convict him of his sins, but he would not come to Christ, nor would he listen to the wooings of the Spirit. So he goes to hell. God made him, and worked in his life to show him what was right. But in going to hell, he shows God's judgement against sin, just as all the wicked will do. So God made the wicked, but he didn't make them that way--they chose. He knew they would reject, but he made them anyway.

Does that make God unrighteous? I'm not going to blame God for someone else's choice. If you want to, you can stand before him and let Him know that.



Hi AFJ,

I guess I have to keep opening to passages that I believe contradict much of what you said above, such as Isaiah 5:4 - What more could have been done to My vineyard That I have not done in it? Why then, when I expected it to bring forth good grapes, Did it bring forth wild grapes?

I'm curious if you at least recognize that what you are proposing above is an attempt to blend seemingly contradictory aspects of God to explain predestination? I held a similar view literally for decades, but what always troubled me was that I knew, and openly admitted, I was having to do some mind calisthenics to get it to all fit. All the mind calisthenics go away and many of these questions are cleanly solved if one thing is true - the future is nonexistent until it happens. My problem is that if this is not true, not only does it open a Pandora's box of problems, it also would have been very easy for God to falsify this in the Bible, yet there is not a single verse that achieves this.

Regarding the passage where Peter says we are predestined according to the foreknowledge of God, all these foreknowledge passages are in the plural. If even just one was in the singular, it would also falsify the above (and create a contradiction with many other Bible passages, requiring a re-launching of my mind calisthenics). Regarding Proverbs, it does not explicitly say that the wicked were created for the sheer purpose of being sent to hell, which it sounds like you agree with me on this in a roundabout way. What I believe God is saying is that he made everything for His glory, even those who unfortunately turn out to be wicked.

Fred

#213 AFJ

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Posted 13 July 2011 - 06:16 PM

Hi AFJ,

I guess I have to keep opening to passages that I believe contradict much of what you said above, such as Isaiah 5:4 - What more could have been done to My vineyard That I have not done in it? Why then, when I expected it to bring forth good grapes, Did it bring forth wild grapes?

So are you saying that God didn't know that Israel would reject his way--yet his elect did not--remember God's response to Elijah--"I have reserved 7000 for myself that have not bowed the knee to Baal." So God is not talking about his elect here, but to the biological offspring of Israel. He is making a case against them. He has done all for them, but they remain unconverted. So when Jesus says to Nicodemas, a man "must be born again" he does not understand. He also calls the leaders, the Pharisees, snakes. They aren't his "sheep" because they don't hear his voice, though they are the physical seed of Abraham. But I doubt seriously you would tell me that God did not know beforehand that the Pharisees would reject Christ. He knew, because the scriptures had to be fulfilled.

I'm curious if you at least recognize that what you are proposing above is an attempt to blend seemingly contradictory aspects of God to explain predestination?

Sorry, I thought I was clear. God makes everyone, and all have free will, but He, being omniscient, knows all things beforehand. He knows who will reject before they do. An example is Christ's prediction of Peter's denial and repentance, and his prediction of Judas' betrayal, with no repentance. I personally believe Judas is responsible for his decision, and was not made to choose that way. But God knew beforehand he would choose that way. He could have not made him, but did anyway. I don't see a contradiction.

I'm not saying I'm completely right. I realize God's thoughts are not our thoughts. He is so much higher than us, and the dimension he is in we can't fully comprehend, so I have to take this subject by faith. My main objective is to justify God, rather than try to reconcile verses that each side uses to state their position.

In a nutshell, I justify God, believe he knows the future, but does not make anyone to go to hell.

All the mind calisthenics go away and many of these questions are cleanly solved if one thing is true - the future is nonexistent until it happens.

I'm not saying the future exists before it happens. I'm saying "God knows the end from the beginning." I don't try to explain it, I just accept it, because He said it.Isaiah 46:10

Regarding the passage where Peter says we are predestined according to the foreknowledge of God, all these foreknowledge passages are in the plural.

Not really sure of what you mean. You mean plural as far as the recipients of election?

#214 Fred Williams

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Posted 14 July 2011 - 11:31 AM

So are you saying that God didn't know that Israel would reject his way--yet his elect did not--remember God's response to Elijah--"I have reserved 7000 for myself that have not bowed the knee to Baal." So God is not talking about his elect here, but to the biological offspring of Israel. He is making a case against them. He has done all for them, but they remain unconverted. So when Jesus says to Nicodemas, a man "must be born again" he does not understand. He also calls the leaders, the Pharisees, snakes. They aren't his "sheep" because they don't hear his voice, though they are the physical seed of Abraham. But I doubt seriously you would tell me that God did not know beforehand that the Pharisees would reject Christ. He knew, because the scriptures had to be fulfilled.


This is a good response, but it didn't really answer why God would say He expected something that didn't transpire. In the Open View thread you might be aware that I can keep these verses coming, there's literally 100s of them. If you can offer an explanation that reasonably accommodates these verses, I would be interested - I know this stuff is so counter to what Christians have been taught their whole lives, and it makes me sound to some like a raving heretic - but often many of the verses I present are not explained, instead other verses are referenced with no explanation of how those verses accommodates my verses.

If the future doesn't exist until it happens, all these problems go away (again, I would challenge anyone to present a verse in the Bible that demonstrates an already-existing future, as opposed to one that will be mapped out, or "brought to pass" Ezek 24:14). Now to answer your question, and its a good one, the answer is that if God created us with free will, and the future does not exist until it happens, He does not know certain unknowable things, such as Casey Anthony killing her child, or Susan Smith drowning her kids, these occurrences never occurred to God, just as His words make crystal clear (Jer 32:35). Now did God know Casey would kill her child at a certain point before it occurred? Yes, because he knows everything knowable and knew her heart and her plans. We also have to realize that an all-knowing God (of all things knowable) would know men would reject Christ. He knew this because man is inherently sinful; it would be like predicting the Pope is Catholic. So in that regard he knew men like the Pharisees would reject His Son.


Sorry, I thought I was clear. God makes everyone, and all have free will, but He, being omniscient, knows all things beforehand.


And I've submitted here scores of verses that say otherwise - He knows what is knowable; all the prophesies He makes he will bring to pass, so only in that sense does He "know" the unknowable future, because He can carve it out to His plan and will.

He knows who will reject before they do. An example is Christ's prediction of Peter's denial and repentance, and his prediction of Judas' betrayal, with no repentance. I personally believe Judas is responsible for his decision, and was not made to choose that way. But God knew beforehand he would choose that way. He could have not made him, but did anyway. I don't see a contradiction.


I've always thought the Peter denial was a good response by those opposed to the Open View, but it nevertheless is reasonably explained, IMHO, by the fact that an all-knowing God would know every minute detail about what is in Peter's heart, and in his thoughts. Again, He would not make the prediction about Peter without knowing for certain Peter would deny Him. Again, like predicting the Pope is Catholic.


I'm not saying I'm completely right.


I am saying I'm completely right. Posted Image

Just kidding. Posted Image I don't see either of our POV, regardless who is right, to be harmful. One thing I've observed regarding false doctrines is that the vast majority of them have something in common - they discourage witnessing (why witness if Calvinism is true? If there is no hell? If all Jews are saved? etc). Neither the open view, or the more traditional free will view you present, has this problem.

Not really sure of what you mean. You mean plural as far as the recipients of election?



Yes, basically the corporate election POV. There is no scripture that falsifies corporate election, there are many that falsify individual predestination (eg. 1 John 2:2).

Fred
PS. Regarding Isaiah 46:10, if the Hebrew word for "know" (yada) had been used, it would falsify the Open View. I hope it at least perks some curiosity in those reading this as to why God would not take an opportunity to do this, unless it actually is a true statement that the future is non-existent until it occurs.

#215 Salsa

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Posted 14 July 2011 - 01:34 PM

Yes, basically the corporate election POV. There is no scripture that falsifies corporate election, there are many that falsify individual predestination (eg. 1 John 2:2).


I think that lines up with the parable of the sower.

You have a big bag of seeds and want to invest them in a harvest that you know will eventually come. In effect, what you have "predestined" is a harvest.

Someone who sows doesn't "precision bomb" each and every point on the ground knowing in advance that they will all produce the harvest you desire. Instead they are scattered everywhere - on hard and stoney ground, as well as on soft and fertile soil.

Despite the fact that God obviously singles out certain episodes in human history where he selects specific "seeds" and "tills the soil" in which they grow in order for his perfect will to come to pass, I think that for the most part we are not all "predestined" in the way we would prefer to think we are.

Just a thought.. :)

#216 AFJ

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 01:02 AM

This is a good response, but it didn't really answer why God would say He expected something that didn't transpire. In the Open View thread you might be aware that I can keep these verses coming, there's literally 100s of them. If you can offer an explanation that reasonably accommodates these verses, I would be interested - I know this stuff is so counter to what Christians have been taught their whole lives, and it makes me sound to some like a raving heretic - but often many of the verses I present are not explained, instead other verses are referenced with no explanation of how those verses accommodates my verses.

I wouldn't call anyone a heretic, unless they made this issue a prerequisite of salvation. This issue has scriptures that could be interpreted on both sides of the aisle. There are some who can make a case for free will, and others who make the case for irresistable grace and unconditional eternal security. I never have got too much into the mix on this issue, because the gospel is simple. Paul didn't go around trying to expound Armenianism, nor Calvinism, he preached Christ and him crucified.

If the future doesn't exist until it happens, all these problems go away (again, I would challenge anyone to present a verse in the Bible that demonstrates an already-existing future, as opposed to one that will be mapped out, or "brought to pass" Ezek 24:14).

I still don't understand why an "already existing future," (which I never claimed) and God knowing things beforehand is the same thing. I believe Christ knew Peter would deny him, because he knew what would transpire, not because he was "I AM" in the future. Even though he fills all things, and was slain from the foundation of the world, Christ somewhat limited himself to our form and dimesion during his time on earth (whether God is in the future is another subject--the future is our philosophical understanding of reality). Knowledge of something in the future is not the same thing as being in the future in my book.


Regarding the passage where Peter says we are predestined according to the foreknowledge of God, all these foreknowledge passages are in the plural.

I agree with you. Here is anexample in Eph. 1.

In love 5 he[c] predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace 8 that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. 9 And he[d] made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment—to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.
11 In him we were also chosen,[e] having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.


Exegetically, you are correct. And I believe this is talking about God's overall plan for the Christ and the church in eternity together. This can not be applied to an individual UNLESS he is in the plan. That requires free will, but also grace. God does the drawing, and the reavealing, and the empowering, and we do the responding and seeking. It's a two way street. So it is inferred individually if I'm a part of that plan. Otherwise there would be no assurance of salvation. Our salvation is God "working in us to do his good pleasure. Extreme Armenianism is a works mentality. Whereas Extreme Calvinism can go to license.

So though exegetically you are correct, there is inference to the individual that is part of the covenant, or there is no assurance of salvation. We would never know if we were in the plan, because we sin even as Christians. We must know that God is working in us and therefore respond to make that election SURE. It is a fine line, so let's seek the Lord!

#217 chipwag64

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Posted 11 September 2011 - 05:42 PM

Predestined to Hell? babies in Hell? puppets? no need for churches, Bibles, forgiveness? where do you people see any of this in the Bible?

#218 Calypsis4

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Posted 12 September 2011 - 05:47 AM

Predestined to Hell? babies in Hell? puppets? no need for churches, Bibles, forgiveness? where do you people see any of this in the Bible?


After 45 yrs of reading the Bible on this subject and seeing so many debates on the issue I have concluded that no one on earth really understands it. It's above all of us. I believe in God's plan, foreordination, and predestination but I also believe that man has a free will and can choose between God and sin. It's a paradox to be sure. How does one fit them together in a logical fashion? Well, we can't this side of heaven.

If God's divine plan is multi-faceted then that would help clear up most of the questions, but that we do not know for certain.

I don't really worry about it much any more. I just do what I think is my responsibility before the Lord and I will get the answers to all my questions about it in heaven.

Best wishes to all.

#219 Teejay

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Posted 12 September 2011 - 06:53 AM

[quote] name='Calypsis4' timestamp='1315831628' post='74917']
After 45 yrs of reading the Bible on this subject and seeing so many debates on the issue I have concluded that no one on earth really understands it. It's above all of us. I believe in God's plan, foreordination, and predestination but I also believe that man has a free will and can choose between God and sin. It's a paradox to be sure. How does one fit them together in a logical fashion? Well, we can't this side of heaven.

If God's divine plan is multi-faceted then that would help clear up most of the questions, but that we do not know for certain.

I don't really worry about it much any more. I just do what I think is my responsibility before the Lord and I will get the answers to all my questions about it in heaven.

Best wishes to all.
[/quote]

Cal,

True, for or against this belief does not determine our salvation. There will be many confused Christians in heaven, and I think we will all have to attend remedial Bible classes. But for me Calvinism accuses God of being immoral and unjust and illogical.

Let’s assume for the moment that God is all powerful. This means that God can do anything that is logically possible. So He can create galaxies and sub-atomic particles and jungles and you.

But God can’t do what is logically impossible. He can’t make a square circle or a one-ended stick. He can’t be everywhere and cast you out of His presence? He can’t grant us freedom to love or Hate Him and program us to love or hate Him at the same time. This is not logically possible. God can’t violate His own laws of logic and remain logical.

So what if when God created human beings He wanted them to be free. Freedom is a good thing. But if humans are to be free they can’t be forced to obey God because freedom without choice is like a square circle. It’s a logical contradiction—no choice, no freedom.

God did not want robots. He wanted real people with the choice to love Him or hate Him. Otherwise, our love would have no value. The first humans endowed with this awesome power of free choice abused their freedom. The tragic consequences of their bad choice and our bad choices rippled across the world. God is responsible for the fact of freedom. But humans are responsible for their acts of freedom.

But let’s remember that we don’t suffer alone. God will put an end to suffering and evil. And God became a Man to suffer with us. God is good and He wants real people like us to know Him. But the free choice is ours.

And, if Calvinists did an in-depth searth for the roots of their belief, they would discover that it comes from Augustine who was a Greek scholar and fatalist. Calvinism rests on pagan Greek philosophy. It's not Biblical.

God is not ALL powerful. He can't MAKE you LOVE him. He can't grant you free choice and force you to accept Him. He can't act illogical and remain logical. He can't judge unjustly and remain just. He can't sin and remain sinless. He can't lie and remain honest. He can't break His promise and remain trustworthy. He can't refuse to be generous and remain unselfish.

God is not everywhere. But He's everywhere that He wants to be. He is not in the Lake of Fire. If He were everywhere, He could not cast you out of HIs presence. If God is everywhere, then He has no choice as to where He wants to be. Who can make God stay in the back room of a g*y bar to witness the perversion? If God wants to turn His back on this, He can. So, again, God is everywhere that He wants to be.

God does not know everything. But He knows everything knowable that He wants to know. But He can't possibly know my great great great grandsons because at present, I have none. They do not exist. How can God know someone who does not exist. Now if one argues that there is a spirit world where they exist, then this is paganism and Mormonism. Humans come to BE when a male sperm fertilizes a female egg. And contrary to the popular cliche' that "God knows the end from the beginning," God does not know the end from the beginning. The Bible does not say that God knows the end from the beginning. It's logically impossible for God to grant free choice and then know what choice we will make--say 20 years from now. God can't make a square circle.

TeeJay

#220 Tubal

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 11:40 PM

People seem to miss what predestination implies. If we have no free will then how can God fairly judge us if ultimately it is not our choice to obey him? Where there is no freedom there can be no sin. Predestination can be used to argue some scary things..

Though God's ways are above our ways as the heavens are as far from the earth we do know his nature from his word.
What is not found there in is lies of the enemy.




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