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Osas Vs Unfogivable Sin.


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#1 ikester7579

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Posted 06 May 2009 - 01:06 AM

This is not an attack on anyone who believes in OSAS (once saved always saved). But is more of an attempt to explain why I no longer believe this.

The thing that points this out more clearly than anything else in God's word is the unforgivable sin. Now I have asked several osas believers about this sin, and how it would prove osas wrong. There response is to either ignore the queston, or respond that only te unsaved can commit this. But let's test this idea that only the usaved can commit such a sin.

Fact #:

1) There is not one verse in the Bible that supports this.
2) The unsaved are already damned. So commiting the sin really does nothing unless one can become doubled damned.
3) This idea makes sin stronger than the shed blood of Christ. How?


Think about it. If a unsaved sinner tried to accept Christ,and was told there was no salvation because Christ's blood cannot forgive all sin. Then sin would become stronger than Christ. In fact the Devil could when millions of souls by getting people to do this.

So are we going to see at the judgment throne: Sorry, my blood could not save you because of this one sin? To be the perfect shed blood from the perfect being. The blood atonement for the unsaved has to be perfect as well. Can imperfect blood come from a perfect being?

So who does this apply to? The saved, and here's why. The shed blood is only fr the unsaved to cross over to being saved. After that the blood no longer applies. Grace and Mercy become our way. Why does this change? To always say that the blood is needed after savation makes Christ into an ongoing sacrafice. Which is what the Catholics teach. The sacrafice of Christ was a one time offering, and t mke it anything else is to deny Christ's words on the cross when He said that it was finished.

Want to see how Satancan use this idea that only the unsaved can commit the unforgivable sin?

http://www.blasphemychallenge.com/

Because if what the osas believers say is true, then there are thousands of people damned for hell with no way out. And that site, and the sin it promotes, becomes stronger than the shed blood of Christ. Such doctrines give hate sites like that more power than they really have. So where do you think such an idea came from?

So no-osas would make that wrong and totally strip that site of any power over the unsaved being able to get saved. Which makes the blood of Christ more powerful than all sin. And the unforgivable sin not a threat to the unsaved. But only to the saved who should know better anyway.

That is one reason I believe in no-osas. It supports the forgiving power of Christ's shed blood for all sin.

#2 the totton linnet

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Posted 06 May 2009 - 03:26 AM

This is not an attack on anyone who believes in OSAS (once saved always saved). But is more of an attempt to explain why I no longer believe this.

The thing that points this out more clearly than anything else in God's word is the unforgivable sin. Now I have asked several osas believers  about this sin, and how it would prove osas wrong. There response is to either ignore the queston, or respond that only te unsaved can commit this. But let's test this idea that only the usaved can commit such a sin.

Fact #:

1) There is not one verse in the Bible that supports this.
2) The unsaved are already damned. So commiting the sin really does nothing unless one can become doubled damned.
3) This idea makes sin stronger than the shed blood of Christ. How?
Think about it. If a unsaved sinner tried to accept Christ,and was told there was no salvation because Christ's blood cannot forgive all sin. Then sin would become stronger than Christ. In fact the Devil could when millions of souls by getting people to do this.

So are we going to see at the judgment throne: Sorry, my blood could not save you because of this one sin? To be the perfect shed blood from the perfect being. The blood atonement for the unsaved has to be perfect as well. Can imperfect blood come from a perfect being?

So who does this apply to? The saved, and here's why. The shed blood is only fr the unsaved to cross over to being saved. After that the blood no longer applies. Grace and Mercy become our way. Why does this change? To always say that the blood is needed after savation makes Christ into an ongoing sacrafice. Which is what the Catholics teach. The sacrafice of Christ was a one time offering, and t mke it anything else is to deny Christ's words on the cross when He said that it was finished.

Want to see how Satancan use this idea that only the unsaved can commit the unforgivable sin?

http://www.blasphemychallenge.com/

Because if what the osas believers say is true, then there are thousands of people damned for hell with no way out. And that site, and the sin it promotes, becomes stronger than the shed blood of Christ. Such doctrines give hate sites like that more power than they really have. So where do you think such an idea came from?

So no-osas would make that wrong and totally strip that site of any power over the unsaved being able to get saved. Which makes the blood of Christ more powerful than all sin. And the unforgivable sin not a threat to the unsaved. But only to the saved who should know better anyway.

That is one reason I believe in no-osas. It supports the forgiving power of Christ's shed blood for all sin.

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No can Ike, belovéd brother, sorry, it was remember the enemies of Christ to whom the warning was given because they had said the power [the Holy Spirit] by which He healed was an unclean spirit.
Doctrines, doctrines, they are of men, they are like the truth all condensed into crystalized form and you cannot do that with truth [without harm] for truth [as it is in Jesus] is a living thing. I believe in that awful thing called apostasy, that's what Hebrews is warning against in the 6th and 10th chapters, it is mercifully a rare thing-it turns my blood cold to think of it, shun the thought. That somebody has come to the cross and recieved the washing away of sins and their spirits are made one with the Lord through the new birth, then to publicly renounce Christ and teach a different salvation?? in the case of the Hebrews returning to the blood of goats and lambs for cleansing, who would do this? but the preacher [for hebrews is a sermon set in the form of an epistle] is afraid for his hearers because they are not going forward in their faith and they are fearful of persecution, "don't go back to all that stuff, how could you even think about it?" is the gist. Even in that extreme case the dire consequences do not mean damnation but physical death and soul loss, why?, so that the spirit which God has caused to dwell in them would be saved, God is jealous of that spirit, it is impossible for it to be lost IMPOSSIBLE, forever forget it.
Two people stand out to me in this context, one is Judas, the other is the man in Corinth who committed adultery against his own father with his mother, even to our modern minds this is a shocking sin, no wonder St. Paul was horrified by it-what state must that guys heart have been in that he could do such a thing. But there was never at any time a question about him losing his salvation, never, never, do you not think that St. Paul would have not warned if there was? but the man was delivered over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, why? so that the spirit might be saved, I cannot think but it was this same man in 2nd corinthians who St. Paul said should be restored to fellowship, "lest he be swallowed up in sorrow."
Judas was a bird of a different feather, he never was saved even though he was appointed as an apostle, he was appointed for the purpose for which he served, the betrayal of his Lord. These are depths in God's dealings which are best left with God except I believe he is a type of one [perhaps a group or denomination] who is to come, perhaps is here now, but as Judas was not recognised by the other apostles so he/they are not recognised, Judas was not disclosed to any but John and then only at the point of betrayal and in a time of intense and intimate communion with his Lord.
It's impossible to lose salvation, I can only state that as the truth but other people will take a different opinion, we can suffer great loss and lose the benefits of salvation, the joy and peace and fellowship we have with the Lord, and with brothers and sisters for God will drive out the sinner from the midst [of a holy congregation at least] but these things are set to keep us close and to draw us back. We may be unfaithful creatures but God is not unfaithful and if He says eternal and everlasting then that's what He means.
You are gonna say Laodocians, well I see them all around, but I strain all my senses to try and detect anything of salvation in them, usually there is one or two among them who the others refer to as "holy Joes" maybe they are the ones with whom the Lord comes into them and sups with them.

#3 Bex

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Posted 06 May 2009 - 04:37 AM

FAITH WITHOUT WORKS? IS ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED A REALITY?

I have come across quite a number of people that have bought into the "faith alone" philosophy in isolation of the rest of what the bible tells us. They have informed me that "once saved always saved and faith alone is all we need". Yet, if one takes into account the bible on a whole, we find that works/change are the expected outcome and evidence of ones conversion and sincerity. So we see how important it is to become familiar with the bible in its completeness.

I admit, it is not by our works that we are saved, since we are redeemed through Christ's sacrifice on the cross. But we are not exempt from obeying God and avoiding sin. The EVIDENCE of our conversion and love of God should be revealed in our actions AND obedience. We become in a sense a new person in Christ. In order to obtain forgiveness of God, one must repent AND seek sincerely to avoid future occassions of sin, not wishing to offend God, or lose ones soul. Not only for our sake, but also as a testament and example to others, lest we become hypocrites! Slipping into sin through weakness and temptation is not unexpected and part of being human/flawed and shows us how much we require the ongoing help of Christ and the ongoing grace of forgiveness/mercy. Christ has given us the means to rise back up and get back on track. However, persisting/living and practising sin or falling into sin and remaining there is another story. For true repentence relies upon corresponding CHANGE! Where is the sincerity if we remain in our sin?

Works in and of themselves outside of the saving blood/grace of Jesus Christ will not save a person, since we are all born into sin and fall into sin. Without the redemption/forgiveness of Christ, our guilt remains! For none is righteous in the eyes God and all fall short of the glory of God. However are good works necessary? ABSOLUTELY YES! The evidence of ones sincere faith/conversion is in the fruits -(good works/obedience). [/B]

(Romans 10:13) For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Is often, unfortunately used in isolation and taken out of context without much regard to how it fits in with our sincerity and corresponding response (action). This is why it is vitally important for us believers to become familiar with the bible.


Are we guilty of applying only the first part of this quote and ignoring the second?

(Ephesians 2:8-10)
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


Cause for SERIOUS reflection to those of us who think we can persist/remain in sin, yet obtain salvation at the sametime. WRONG!

(Hebrews 10:26-27) "For if we go on sinning willfully after acquiring the knowledge of the truth, there is no longer left any sacrifice for sins, but some dreadful anticipation of judgment and of a fierce fire that is to devour those who oppose God."


(Ezekiel 3-18) When I say to the wicked, "You will certainly die," and you do not warn him - you do not speak out to warn the wicked to turn from his wicked deed and wicked lifestyle so that he may live - that wicked person will die for his iniquity, but I will hold you accountable for his death.
19 But as for you, if you warn the wicked and he does not turn from his wicked deed and from his wicked lifestyle, he will die for his iniquity but you will have saved your own life.
20 "When a righteous person turns from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and I set an obstacle before him, he will die. If you have not warned him, he will die for his sin. The righteous deeds he performed will not be considered, but I will hold you accountable for his death.
21 However, if you warn the righteous person not to sin, and he does not sin, he will certainly live because he was warned, and you will have saved your own life."


(Matthew 7:19) Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.


(John 14:21)   He that has my commandments (law), and keeps them, he it is that loves me: and he that loves me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him And hereby we do know that we know Him, if we keep His Commandments. 4 He that saith, I know Him, and keepeth not His Commandments, is a liar, and the Truth is not in Him" (1 John 2:3-4).


(2 Chronicles 7:14) "If my people who are called by My name will humble themselves, and pray and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin and heal their land".


(Phil 2:12,13) :  So, my dear friends, you have always been obedient; your obedience must not be limited at times when I am present. Now that I am absent it must be more in evidence, so work out your salvation in fear and trembling. It is God who, for His own generous purpose, gives you the intention and the powers to act.


(Romans 2:5-13)   5  after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13  For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified
14For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)


What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, “Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.” 
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that-and shudder.
[B](-James 2:14-19)[/B]

It's what comes out that counts: http://www.kencollins.com/disc-43.htm
So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.
The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: S@xual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.
[B]-Galatians 5:16-26, [/B]


(James 2:20) "But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead"?


[B](Acts 10:34-35)  [/B] Cornelius was commended and approved by Peter for working righteousness .

[B](II Cor 5:17) [/B]. So for anyone who is in Christ, there is a new creation: the old order is gone and a new being is there to see.

[B]Personal advice to Titus 
(Titus 3:8) [/B]  I want you to be quite uncompromising in teaching all this, so that those who now believe in God may keep their minds constantly occupied in doing good works. All this is good, and useful for everybody.

[B](I Tim 6:12). [/B]  Fight the good fight of faith and win the eternal life to which you were called and for which you made your noble profession of faith before many witnesses.

[B](James 2:14-26)[/B]  How does it help, my brothers, when someone who has never done a single good act claims to have faith? will that faith bring salvation?

Read the verses in these quotes that proves to us that the kingdom of Heaven is for workers/overcomers! Once again, emphasizing fighting the good fight.
(Rev 2:7). (Rev 2:11). (Rev 2:17). (Re 2:26-28). (Rev 3:5). (Rev 3:12). (Rev 3:21). (Rev 12:17). (Phil 3:8-14).

[B](II Timothy 4:7-8) [/B]  I have fought the good fight to the end; I have run the race to the finish; I have kept the faith; all there is to come for me now is the crown of uprightness which the Lord, the upright judge, will give to me on that Day; and not only to me but to all those who have longed for his appearing.

[B](James 1:21-25) [/B]  So do away with all impurities and remnants of evil. Humbly welcome the Word which has been planted in you and can save your souls.

"Woe to faint hearts and listless hands, and to the sinner who treads two paths [B](Sirach 2:14).[/B]

[B]jas 4:17[/B] Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

[B](Luke 9:23) [/B] Then speaking to all, he said, 'If anyone wants to be a follower of mine, let him renounce himself and take up his cross everyday and follow me. Anyone who wants to save his life will lose it; but anyone who loses his life for my sake, will save it. What benefit is it to anyone to win the whole world and forfeit or lose his very self? For if anyone is ashamed of me and of my words, of him the Son of man will be ashamed when he comes in his own glory and in the glory of the Father and the holy angels.

[B](Luke 14:27). [/B]No one who does not carry his cross and come after me can be my disciple.

[B](Matt 28:19-20)[/B] Go, therefore, make disciples of all nations; baptise them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teach them to observe all the commands I gave you. And look, I am with you always; yes, to the end of time.

[B](John 5:29)[/B] Those who did good will come forth to life; and those who did evil will come forth to judgement.

[B](Romans 8:13) [/B]If you do live in that way, you are doomed to die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the habits originating in the body, you will have life.

[B](Rom 8:17)[/B] And if we are children, then we are heirs, heirs of God and join-heirs with Christ, provided that we share his suffering, so as to share his glory.

"Father, in JESUS' name I ask you to forgive me of all my sins. I repent Lord. Come into my life. Fill me with the Holy Spirit. With your help, I will "stop sinning"[B] (John 5:14).[/B] Amen."

[B](1 Corinthians 10:12)[/B] Everyone, no matter how firmly he thinks he is standing, must be careful he does not fall. none of the trials which have come upon you is more than a human being can stand. You can trust that God will not let you be put to the test beyond your strength, but with any trial will also provide a way out by enabling you to put up with it.

[B](Deuteronomy 13:4)[/B] "Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear Him, and keep His Commandments, and obey His Voice, and ye shall serve Him, and cleave unto Him".

We cannot have our cake and eat it too!
(Luke 16:13) "Ye cannot serve God and mammon".

If we "cleave unto Him" [B](Deuteronomy 13:4), [/B]Who is "[our] Life" (30:20), then we will not sin against our God.

[B](1 John 3:6).[/B]  Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not.

[B](Matthew 7:21) [/B] Not everyone that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter the Kingdom of Heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in Heaven.

The good fruit believers should have in their lives is listed in [B]Galatians 5:22-23[/B].

We were created to do good works (Ephesians 2:10). If a person claims to be a believer, but has no good works in his life - then he likely does not have genuine faith in Christ (James 2:14, 17, 20, 26).

[B](Matthew 7) [/B] “Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23 “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’ 
24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 “And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock. 26 “Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. 27 “The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell-and great was its fall.”

The bible is clear time and time again that faith/conversion should = change. The old to the new. The strive for eternal life by resisting/fleeing from temptation/sin, obeying God's commandments, putting His word into action. What Christ said applies to us ALL.

[B](1 Peter 4:18).[/B] "And if the just man shall scarely be saved, where shall the ungodly and sinner appear?"

Uproot sin out of our lives - it is our worst enemy.
[B](Matt. 18:7-9; compare 5:29-30).[/B]  "If thy hand scandalize thee, cut it off; it is better for thee to enter into life, maimed, than, having two hands, to go into hell, into the fire that cannot be quenched where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not extinguished. And if they foot scandalize thee, cut it off, it is better for thee to enter lame into life, than, having two feet, to be cast into the hell of unquenchable fire, where their worm dieth not and the fire is not extinguished. And if thy eye scandalize thee, pluck it out; it is better for thee with one eye to enter the kingdom of God, than having two eyes, to be cast into the hell of fire, where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not extinguished". 
"Wonder not at this; for the hour cometh, wherein all that are in the graves shall hear the voice of the Son of God. And they that have done good things shall come forth to the resurrection of life; but they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of judgement" (John. 5:28, 29).

[B](I Corinthians 6:9-11) [/B] "Know you not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the Kingdom of God? Be not deceived, neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners shall inherit the Kingdom of God".
"He that commits sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God does not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." 1 John 3:8-9

"When people sin, they earn what sin pays-- death." [B]Romans 6:23[/B]

Behold, the LORD's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear: But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear." [B](Isaiah 59:1-2 [/B]<http://www.icr.org/bible/Isaiah/59/1-2>)

Here too is another example of how forgiveness is dependent upon sincerity and the intention and effort to avoid future occassions of sin.
Go and Sin NO MORE!


[B]John 8: 3-11[/B]

3 Then the scribes and Pharisees brought to Him a woman 
caught in adultery. And when they had set her in the 
midst,
4 they said to Him, "Teacher, this woman was caught in
adultery, in the very act.
5 "Now Moses, in the law, commanded us that such should 
be stoned. But what do You say?"
6 This they said, testing Him, that they might have 
something of which to accuse Him. But Jesus stooped 
down and wrote on the ground with His finger, as though 
He did not hear.
7 So when they continued asking Him, He raised Himself up
and said to them, "He who is without sin among you, let
him throw a stone at her first."
8 And again He stooped down and wrote on the ground.
9 Then those who heard it, being convicted by their 
conscience, went out one by one, beginning with the 
oldest even to the last. And Jesus was left alone, and 
the woman standing in the midst.
10 When Jesus had raised Himself up and saw no one but the 
woman, He said to her, "Woman, where are those accusers 
of yours? Has no one condemned you?"
11 She said, "No one, Lord." And Jesus said to her, 
"Neither do I condemn you; go and sin no more."
Let us do likewise and should we fall? Not to wallow in despair or give up, but remember the saving hand of our Lord ready to lift us back up and renew out walk with Him towards Heaven!

BOTTOM LINE:
1 John 1:9 , "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteouness."


#4 the totton linnet

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Posted 06 May 2009 - 05:34 AM

Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in [her] and [her] in God. So we know and believe the love God has for us. God is love and [she] who abides in love abides in God and God abides in [her]. In this love is perfected with us, that we may have confidence for the day of judgement because as He is so are we in this world. There is no fear in love but perfect love casts out fear, for fear has to do with punishment and [she] who fears is not perfected in love. We love because He first loved us 1. john. ch. 4. vs15-18
I have personalized this scriptured to myself [the brackets] I want to be sure He is abiding in me and manifesting His life in me, His life flowing out. That is the only christianity, on this side of eternity, worth a plugged nickle, as the yanks say, :huh: I don't wanna serve out of fear-I suppose it's better than nowt-but I want for His love, nothing so motivates the human soul like love. Once you have tasted of the Lord's love you can't replace it with anything else, all you can do is keep coming back for it, that is the nature of love.
We love because He first loved us, that is the most hope filled scripture to me in the whole bible.

#5 Bex

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Posted 06 May 2009 - 06:21 AM

Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in [her] and [her] in God. So we know and believe the love God has for us. God is love and [she] who abides in love abides in God and God abides in [her]. In this love is perfected with us, that we may have confidence for the day of judgement because as He is so are we in this world. There is no fear in love but perfect love casts out fear, for fear has to do with punishment and [she] who fears is not perfected in love. We love because He first loved us 1. john. ch. 4. vs15-18
I have personalized this scriptured to myself [the brackets] I want to be sure He is abiding in me and manifesting His life in me, His life flowing out. That is the only christianity, on this side of eternity, worth a plugged nickle, as the yanks say, :D I don't wanna serve out of fear-I suppose it's better than nowt-but I want for His love, nothing so motivates the human soul like love. Once you have tasted of the Lord's love you can't replace it with anything else, all you can do is keep coming back for it, that is the nature of love.
We love because He first loved us, that is the most hope filled scripture to me in the whole bible.

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Yes, I like that! :)

But is "fear" necessarily always a bad thing? If we grow in love towards our Lord, then I believe we would have a natural aversion to sin, as we would not wish to hurt or offend Him. But, I would hazard a guess and imagine not too many of us are always motivated out of "love" to cease sinning.

As we know, Jesus is the perfect example of love, sacrifice, obedience, serving others mercy and the example we are called to follow. If we want a description of love, it's there nailed to a Cross!

It is only right to have reverence/awe of the Lord and fear of offending Him through the consequences of eternal separation. I admire those with a childlike faith and love towards God as their main driving force! And that is what He wishes for us all, as a Father would.

Perhaps it is far from the perfect motivation to come to God or give up sin through fear/discomfort of the consequences, but it's not a bad starting point! And certainly better than remaining in sin comfortable and indifferent.

More importantly though, we ought to read what the bible tells us about certain kinds of fear:

Ps 111:10 (NEB) The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, and they who live by it grow in understanding...


Ps 118:4 (NIV) Let those who fear the LORD say: "His love endures forever."


Prov 9:10 (NEB) The first step to wisdom is the fear of the Lord, and knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.


Phil 2:12-13 (NIV) ...continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.


Jer 5:22 (NIV) "Should you not fear me?" declares the Lord. "Should you not tremble in my presence?"


Ps 34:11 (NEB) Come, my children, listen to me; I will teach you the fear of the Lord.


Mat 10:28 (NIV) [Jesus] "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the one who can destroy both soul and body in hell."


Luke 12:4-5 (Jer) "To you my friends I say: Do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. I will tell you whom to fear; fear him who, after he has killed, has the power to cast into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him."


Prov 8:13 (NIV) To fear the Lord is to hate evil.

Prov 16:6 (NEB) ...the fear of the Lord makes men turn from evil.

Prov 19:23 (NEB) The fear of the Lord is life; he who is full of it will rest untouched by evil.


[B]Job 28:28 [/B](NEB) ..."The fear of the Lord is wisdom, and to turn from evil is understanding."

So fear of the right kind IS the beginning of wisdom, for it is through awareness of sin and fear of offending our Lord, that can begin to motivate our walk on the road to holiness, not wishing to be eternally separated from Him, but rather being with Him forever. Becoming further perfected and closer to God, growing in love. But to remain "fearful" is another story.

I think this sums it up as you pointed out:

 [B]1 Jn 4:17-18 [/B](Jer) Love will come to its perfection in us when we can face the day of Judgment without fear; because even in this world we become as he is. In love there can be no fear, but fear is driven out by perfect love: because to fear is to expect punishment, and anyone who is afraid is still imperfect in love.


#6 Adam Nagy

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Posted 06 May 2009 - 07:02 AM

I think all of you are messed up in the head. :D

Actually, I see a lot more agreement here than some may. I think the limit of our perspective is important here. I believe when we believe to know someone is saved, it should be qualified with our limitation to accurately detect such a condition.

The last time I checked the only kind of life Jesus has on offer is the eternal variety. However, are we always equipped to detect an individual who is only mouthing words and faking a salvation that they never received.

This is the only comment I take particular issue with:

The shed blood is only for the unsaved to cross over to being saved. After that the blood no longer applies.

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As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:


I will agree that we can't keep reapplying the Blood of Christ because the Blood is far to precious and Holy for men to manipulate.

I guess the type of pronouncement that makes me raise an eyebrow is when someone declares that a person who exhibits all the signs of someone who is lost, must be saved because they said some certain words in confession when they were nine years old or something like that. We just don't know these things.

As for Hebrews 6, I believe there is a clear cut way to determine if this is applicable to someone. If someone lives out their entire life as a vehement and uninterested scoffer, after they have been afforded all possibility to see the light, they are indeed a reprobate mind.

If anyone would ever come to me and say that they want to be saved but they may have committed the unpardonable sin. I will declare based upon their very desire to be saved that they have not.

Adam

#7 the totton linnet

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Posted 06 May 2009 - 07:28 AM

Yes, I like that!  :D   

But is "fear" necessarily always a bad thing?  If we grow in love towards our Lord, then I believe we would have a natural aversion to sin, as we would not wish to hurt or offend Him.  But, I would hazard a guess and imagine not too many of us are always motivated out of "love" to cease sinning.

As we know, Jesus is the perfect example of love, sacrifice, obedience, serving others mercy and the example we are called to follow.  If we want a description of love, it's there nailed to a Cross!

It is only right to have reverence/awe of the Lord and fear of offending Him through the consequences of eternal separation. I admire those with a childlike faith and love towards God as their main driving force!  And that is what He wishes for us all, as a Father would.

Perhaps it is far from the perfect motivation to come to God or give up sin through fear/discomfort of the consequences, but it's not a bad starting point!  And certainly better than remaining in sin comfortable and indifferent.

More importantly though, we ought to read  what the bible tells us about certain kinds of fear:

[B]Job 28:28 [/B](NEB) ..."The fear of the Lord is wisdom, and to turn from evil is understanding."

So fear of the right kind IS the beginning of wisdom, for it is through awareness of sin and fear of offending our Lord, that can begin to motivate our walk on the road to holiness, not wishing to be eternally separated from Him, but rather being with Him forever.  Becoming further perfected and closer to God, growing in love.  But to remain "fearful" is another story.

I think this sums it up as you pointed out:

 [B]1 Jn 4:17-18 [/B](Jer) Love will come to its perfection in us when we can face the day of Judgment without fear; because even in this world we become as he is. In love there can be no fear, but fear is driven out by perfect love: because to fear is to expect punishment, and anyone who is afraid is still imperfect in love.

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Well you've said my position exactly Bexy if we love the Lord we will loathe sin, the first thing anybody said to me when I first gave my testimony was "ah sister, that is the first joy, you will lose that and then you must walk by faith." people make a whole doctrine out of it, the words shot out of me like bullets, from my guts, "not so brother! for He hath said "I will never leave thee nor forsake thee" now the fullness of joy is in His presence, when we sin we lose this sense of His presence, if we are wise or just plain needy [in my case] we will cry and cry to Him until we are cleansed once more and His Presence is restored to us. God would test our hearts to see if His fellowship is all important to us. If we continue in sin then our way will become darker and darker, pretty soon we will make bad choices and wrong decisions, things will go amiss with us and we are in trouble, "the way of the backslider is hedged up with thorns" now this is what people equate with losing their salvation, and yes the longer it is continued in the worse it will be and the harder to get back to the Lord [in His fulness] we will even die. But all of this is not losing salvation, what sorrow it all is and I've seen it. That brother who spoke to me was indeed a backslider. Yes I fear losing the fellowship I have with God but that is love motivated, I have to choose that, the unsaved person has no power to choose, it's this idea that people have that "they chose the Lord" from whence the uncertainty arises, "they made the decision" all that is fickle stuff and frail for we are fickle and frail. Once get it firmly settled once and forever that it was He that chose us, even in the eternity of eternities, even before we did good or bad, what comfort and assurance this engenders, what love we have for Him then.

#8 the totton linnet

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Posted 06 May 2009 - 07:43 AM

I think all of you are messed up in the head. :D

Actually, I see a lot more agreement here than some may. I think the limit of our perspective is important here. I believe when we believe to know someone is saved, it should be qualified with our limitation to accurately detect such a condition.

The last time I checked the only kind of life Jesus has on offer is the eternal variety. However, are we always equipped to detect an individual who is only mouthing words and faking a salvation that they never received.

This is the only comment I take particular issue with:
I will agree that we can't keep reapplying the Blood of Christ because the Blood is far to precious and Holy for men to manipulate.

I guess the type of pronouncement that makes me raise an eyebrow is when someone declares that a person who exhibits all the signs of someone who is lost, must be saved because they said some certain words in confession when they were nine years old or something like that. We just don't know these things.

As for Hebrews 6, I believe there is a clear cut way to determine if this is applicable to someone. If someone lives out their entire life as a vehement and uninterested scoffer, after they have been afforded all possibility to see the light, they are indeed a reprobate mind.

If anyone would ever come to me and say that they want to be saved but they may have committed the unpardonable sin. I will declare based upon their very desire to be saved that they have not.

Adam

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:) don't make me come over there :)

#9 Adam Nagy

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Posted 06 May 2009 - 07:55 AM

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:D don't make me come over there  :)

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Totton,

I can't wait to see you in heaven, so we can dance on the streets of gold together, singing high praises to our Mighty Lord Jesus. :)

#10 ikester7579

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Posted 07 May 2009 - 12:10 AM

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No can Ike, belovéd brother, sorry, it was remember the enemies of Christ to whom the warning was given because they had said the power [the Holy Spirit] by which He healed was an unclean spirit.
Doctrines, doctrines, they are of men, they are like the truth all condensed into crystalized form and you cannot do that with truth [without harm] for truth [as it is in Jesus] is a living thing. I believe in that awful thing called apostasy, that's what Hebrews is warning against in the 6th and 10th chapters, it is mercifully a rare thing-it turns my blood cold to think of it, shun the thought. That somebody has come to the cross and recieved the washing away of sins and their spirits are made one with the Lord through the new birth, then to publicly renounce Christ and teach a different salvation?? in the case of the Hebrews returning to the blood of goats and lambs for cleansing, who would do this? but the preacher [for hebrews is a sermon set in the form of an epistle] is afraid for his hearers because they are not going forward in their faith and they are fearful of persecution, "don't go back to all that stuff, how could you even think about it?" is the gist. Even in that extreme case the dire consequences do not mean damnation but physical death and soul loss, why?, so that the spirit which God has caused to dwell in them would be saved, God is jealous of that spirit, it is impossible for it to be lost IMPOSSIBLE, forever forget it.
Two people stand out to me in this context, one is Judas, the other is the man in Corinth who committed adultery against his own father with his mother, even to our modern minds this is a shocking sin, no wonder St. Paul was horrified by it-what state must that guys heart have been in that he could do such a thing. But there was never at any time a question about him losing his salvation, never, never, do you not think that St. Paul would have not warned if there was? but the man was delivered over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, why? so that the spirit might be saved, I cannot think but it was this same man in 2nd corinthians who St. Paul said should be restored to fellowship, "lest he be swallowed up in sorrow."
Judas was a bird of a different feather, he never was saved even though he was appointed as an apostle, he was appointed for the purpose for which he served, the betrayal of his Lord. These are depths in God's dealings which are best left with God except I believe he is a type of one [perhaps a group or denomination] who is to come, perhaps is here now, but as Judas was not recognised by the other apostles so he/they are not recognised, Judas was not disclosed to any but John and then only at the point of betrayal and in a time of intense and intimate communion with his Lord.
It's impossible to lose salvation, I can only state that as the truth but other people will take a different opinion, we can suffer great loss and lose the benefits of salvation, the joy and peace and fellowship we have with the Lord, and with brothers and sisters for God will drive out the sinner from the midst [of a holy congregation at least] but these things are set to keep us close and to draw us back. We may be unfaithful creatures but God is not unfaithful and if He says eternal and everlasting then that's what He means.
You are gonna say Laodocians, well I see them all around, but I strain all my senses to try and detect anything of salvation in them, usually there is one or two among them who the others refer to as "holy Joes" maybe they are the ones with whom the Lord comes into them and sups with them.

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What I find that most osas believers do not understand is that there are two types of works.

Works for salvation is called carnal works. One cannot obtain salvation through this.

Kingdom works is the evidence of our salvation. It is the works we do in order to show we are saved not only unto the world. But unto the one we make the covenant with.

For if we go unto the judgement, and we have no work evidence of the covenant we agreed to. Then we also have no claim unto the saving power unto which Christ shed His blood. This is why this verse says what it does.

1cor 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

How does one becomes saved by fire? When the kingdom works required by the covenant are not done, then we cannot claim the blood unto which we agreed. So the only purification left for us to enter heaven, is to be purified (saved) by fire. Because once the covenant of Christ is denied through His shed blood, because our works burn up which means our evidence for salvation also burns up. Then there is only one way left.

This is why during the judgment in front of Christ's throne the sheep are separated and some are called goats. And then the goats are thrown into the fire of hell.

Goats + fire = old covenant sin atonement.

If not, show one verse anywhere in God's word that says goats are unsaved sinners? There is not one because goats are not unsaved sinners. Goats are sheep who refused to do kingdom works, and became goats so that their sin atonement can still be made.

Need more proof?

Matthew 25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.


Are these not kingdom works? And since one cannot be saved by works alone, then how can these works save the unsaved if goats are unsaved sinners?

Example: If a unsaved sinner:

Gave meat when Christ hungered, gave drink when Christ thirst, took in Christ because He was a stranger, gave him clothes because he was naked, visited him when he was sick, and came unto him in prison. Does that save you?

If the unsaved sinner is being judged by this standard, it does. So do you see where you cannot say that the goats are unsaved sinners? They are being judged by kingdom works when they are not required to do them because they did not enter unto a covenant as we did. So this judgment does not apply to the unsaved.

Basically what I am trying to point out here is that if works can condemn you as a unsaved sinner, then works also have to save you. And we know that is not right.

#11 ikester7579

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Posted 07 May 2009 - 12:18 AM

Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in [her] and [her] in God. So we know and believe the love God has for us. God is love and [she] who abides in love abides in God and God abides in [her]. In this love is perfected with us, that we may have confidence for the day of judgement because as He is so are we in this world. There is no fear in love but perfect love casts out fear, for fear has to do with punishment and [she] who fears is not perfected in love. We love because He first loved us 1. john. ch. 4. vs15-18
I have personalized this scriptured to myself [the brackets] I want to be sure He is abiding in me and manifesting His life in me, His life flowing out. That is the only christianity, on this side of eternity, worth a plugged nickle, as the yanks say, :D I don't wanna serve out of fear-I suppose it's better than nowt-but I want for His love, nothing so motivates the human soul like love. Once you have tasted of the Lord's love you can't replace it with anything else, all you can do is keep coming back for it, that is the nature of love.
We love because He first loved us, that is the most hope filled scripture to me in the whole bible.

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Where did you hear that no-osas was a doctrine of fear? Was it from the osas preachers who used fear themselves to make you believe this? I don't live in fear because my kingdom works are evidence of my salvation which shall not burn up. And I won't be using salvation as an excuse to say that I cannot lose my salvation so therefore evidence of my salvation (kingdom works) are not required. Our preconceived reality does not make a new reality unto which we will be judged. We are, and will be judged by what is written. And more than 50% of God's word instructs us on how we are supposed to do kingdom works so that others may hear the news of the gospel.

So if osas preacher told you that no-osas is a fear doctrine, then through fear he has made you afraid to research it for yourself, and through fear you will always stay osas. So who here is actually preaching fear?

#12 ikester7579

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Posted 07 May 2009 - 12:28 AM

I think all of you are messed up in the head. :D

Actually, I see a lot more agreement here than some may. I think the limit of our perspective is important here. I believe when we believe to know someone is saved, it should be qualified with our limitation to accurately detect such a condition.

The last time I checked the only kind of life Jesus has on offer is the eternal variety. However, are we always equipped to detect an individual who is only mouthing words and faking a salvation that they never received.

This is the only comment I take particular issue with:
I will agree that we can't keep reapplying the Blood of Christ because the Blood is far to precious and Holy for men to manipulate.

I guess the type of pronouncement that makes me raise an eyebrow is when someone declares that a person who exhibits all the signs of someone who is lost, must be saved because they said some certain words in confession when they were nine years old or something like that. We just don't know these things.

As for Hebrews 6, I believe there is a clear cut way to determine if this is applicable to someone. If someone lives out their entire life as a vehement and uninterested scoffer, after they have been afforded all possibility to see the light, they are indeed a reprobate mind.

If anyone would ever come to me and say that they want to be saved but they may have committed the unpardonable sin. I will declare based upon their very desire to be saved that they have not.

Adam

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One cannot take what is pure and perfect and corrupt it unless what is applied is also corrupt unto itself.

If osas gives blasphemy sin the power to keep the unsaved sinner from salvation. Then salvation through the shed blood becomes corrupt because it cannot forgive all sin.

If no-osas takes away the power of the blasphemy sin to keep God's free gift from giving salvation unto the unsaved. Then the shed blood has power over all sin. And can save those who seem unsavable.

So are those who get the "unsaved" to lock themselves into eternal damnation with no way out, right? So that they can recruit men women and children unto eternal damnation? I don't serve A God who cannot save all of the unsaved. Because my work then would be in vain if the blasphemy sin can block my kingdom works. And all vain kingdom works shall burn when tested with fire,

So which is it?

#13 ikester7579

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Posted 07 May 2009 - 12:36 AM

Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in [her] and [her] in God. So we know and believe the love God has for us. God is love and [she] who abides in love abides in God and God abides in [her]. In this love is perfected with us, that we may have confidence for the day of judgement because as He is so are we in this world. There is no fear in love but perfect love casts out fear, for fear has to do with punishment and [she] who fears is not perfected in love. We love because He first loved us 1. john. ch. 4. vs15-18
I have personalized this scriptured to myself [the brackets] I want to be sure He is abiding in me and manifesting His life in me, His life flowing out. That is the only christianity, on this side of eternity, worth a plugged nickle, as the yanks say, :D I don't wanna serve out of fear-I suppose it's better than nowt-but I want for His love, nothing so motivates the human soul like love. Once you have tasted of the Lord's love you can't replace it with anything else, all you can do is keep coming back for it, that is the nature of love.
We love because He first loved us, that is the most hope filled scripture to me in the whole bible.

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The reason using the word her is wrong is because woman was created from man. Which means woman is a part of man. So anything that is said of man is also applied unto the woman unless the scripture is on a gender issue.

And before you assume I'm of the old gender thing where women cannot preach. I listen to Joyce Myer. So don't go there because I can give a whole sermon on that issue as well.

A plug for Joyce. the new DVD: "Battle field of the mind", which is 4 sermons on spiritual warfare is awesome.

#14 the totton linnet

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Posted 07 May 2009 - 09:06 AM

The reason using the word her is wrong is because woman was created from man. Which means woman is a part of man. So anything that is said of man is also applied unto the woman unless the scripture is on a gender issue.

And before you assume I'm of the old gender thing where women cannot preach. I listen to Joyce Myer. So don't go there because I can give a whole sermon on that issue as well.

A plug for Joyce. the new DVD: "Battle field of the mind", which is 4 sermons on spiritual warfare is awesome.

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Admonition accepted :lol:

#15 the totton linnet

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Posted 08 May 2009 - 04:14 AM

Where did you hear that no-osas was a doctrine of fear? Was it from the osas preachers who used fear themselves to make you believe this? I dn't live in fear because my kingdom works are evidence of my salvation which shall not burn up. And I won't be using salvation as an excuse to say that I cannot lose my salvation so therefore evidence of my salvation (kingdom works) are not required. Our preconcieved reality does not make a new reality untowhich we will be judged. We are, and will be judged by what is written. And more than 50% of God's word instructs us on how we are supposed to do kingdom works so that other may here the news of the gospel.

So if osas preacher told you that no-osas is a fear doctrine, then through fear he has made you afraid to research it yourself, and through fear always stay osas. So who here is actually preaching fear?

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Well dear Ike we disagree so much it is better if we each pray one for the other rather than fall out, I once was leaving a meeting where the preach had just said quoting Jesus "My sheep hear my voice and I know them and they follow Me and I give them eternal life and they shall never perish and no-one shall snatch them out of My hand, My Father Who has given them to Me is greater than all and no-one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one." then she added "but YOU can snatch yourself out of the Father's hand" and earned a frown from me.
As I was leaving suddenly the most fearful screaming I have ever heard in my life erupted from the lobby-I do not exaggerate at all-it froze the blood in my veins, the most awful wailing. A pretty little west indian girl who was tripped up in some affair with an unsaved boy [how easy it is to condemn such, but how strong and persistent the temptation, ... right?] and she was of course going through all the pain and sorrow that being in sin entails, loss of fellowship with the Lord being the worse. Ike she was to lose her mind and go into derangement with fear and grief because of what the preacher had said. Swaying back and forth, mouth wide open and screaming "I'm lost, I'm lost and can't be saved."
Now I know what the conviction of the Holy Spirit is, but this was not the Holy Ghost.
You are strong in the Lord, praise the Lord for that, St. Paul bids us all when we are standing "beware lest we fall" but others are holding on, they are like smoking flax and like broken reeds, trembling lambs.
Even when the Lord is punishing most severely as when He carried off the Jews to Babylon He gives Ezekiel the message "I will be a little sanctuary for them" that is so tender and loving isn't it? how His people, in the midst of their punishment must have been comforted. God will never abandon His people, never.
That preacher had no right to add those words to God's word like that, the only thing that brought her back to some sense was when the pastor herself admitted she was wrong.
Now I've been doing a little series on revivals, I was going to do a piece on Jonathan Edwards because that was another revival that started off with utter simplicity, I couldn't find the source I had read a few years ago where J.E. stated that the revival had begun and was going on for a few weeks before they realised God was working among them. But the more I read about J.E. the more I saw how it all began to go wrong [I think I see why it went wrong, but well who am I to say] but in the later stages of it people were cutting their throats-literally-revivals do go wrong and sometimes at the end of them you have to balance the successes with the failures, but they always start in simplicity-the problems start with man not with God.

#16 ikester7579

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Posted 13 May 2009 - 02:56 AM

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Well dear Ike we disagree so much it is better if we each pray one for the other rather than fall out, I once was leaving a meeting where the preach had just said quoting Jesus "My sheep hear my voice and I know them and they follow Me and I give them eternal life and they shall never perish and no-one shall snatch them out of My hand, My Father Who has given them to Me is greater than all and no-one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one." then she added "but YOU can snatch yourself out of the Father's hand" and earned a frown from me.
As I was leaving suddenly the most fearful screaming I have ever heard in my life erupted from the lobby-I do not exaggerate at all-it froze the blood in my veins, the most awful wailing. A pretty little west indian girl who was tripped up in some affair with an unsaved boy [how easy it is to condemn such, but how strong and persistent the temptation, ... right?] and she was of course going through all the pain and sorrow that being in sin entails, loss of fellowship with the Lord being the worse. Ike she was to lose her mind and go into derangement with fear and grief because of what the preacher had said. Swaying back and forth, mouth wide open and screaming "I'm lost, I'm lost and can't be saved."

I don't judge truth by the reactions of others. Because Satan can use another to make you believe a lie.

Example: I was raised Baptist which has it's roots in osas. And because they said it was true, I believed it. Then one day the preacher preached a sermon on how salvation can be used as a ticket to sin. I was shocked because to me this was mocking what Christ did on the cross. But being new in Christ, I knew I could not just reject it. So it stuck with me for many years.

But if I had taken what that preacher did and based my belief on him giving that sermon wrong. My belief would not be based on the word, but on my opinion due to a sermon I disagreed with. Just like you would be wrong to base no-osas on a woman screaming. You see you said that it was fearful screaming, right? God is not the author of fear, so what was screaming was the demon inside her that heard the word of truth and was tormented by it.

One day I joined a forum where they debated the 2 doctrines all the time. There were so many debates, they could have made a forum section for just that subject.

So I wanted to know the truth about this. So I entered these debates defending osas. After about 3 months of intense debating, research, and scripture study. I soon started to doubt osas and here's why. Every time I asked an osas about what certain verses mean that contradicted osas. I got the run around. The interpretations did not line up with other scripture. I soon found myself confused. Then I decided that if I was going to find the truth, that I would have to forget what I was taught as doctrine, become neutral to the subject, and allow God's word to guide me.

It was only then that I found myself being lead to a truth on this subject, and I soon found myself no longer confused. Even though during the process I was jumping back and forth in my belief Basically testing both sides against scripture.

I found that I could find several times more scripture to support no osas. I even started keeping a list. I can put up about 3 pages of posts on what I learned, and it's in great detail on just about any subject concerning this. I could probably write a detailed book on the subject. That's how much study I did.

Now I know what the conviction of the Holy Spirit is, but this was not the Holy Ghost.

When a demon is in torment by hearing the truth of God's word, You don't know what sound may come out of a persons mouth. I've heard things from demonic possession that would make your hairs stand up on the back of your neck. I have had my spiritual eye opened and seen things man does not normally see. So you are not talking to some one whom has not been there done that. And even though I knew Christ was with me during that experience,I would not really want to repeat it if I did not have to.

You are strong in the Lord, praise the Lord for that, St. Paul bids us all when we are standing "beware lest we fall" but others are holding on, they are like smoking flax and like broken reeds, trembling lambs.
Even when the Lord is punishing most severely as when He carried off the Jews to Babylon He gives Ezekiel the message "I will be a little sanctuary for them" that is so tender and loving isn't it? how His people, in the midst of their punishment must have been comforted. God will never abandon His people, never.
That preacher had no right to add those words to God's word like that, the only thing that brought her back to some sense was when the pastor herself admitted she was wrong.

Why preach what is wrong as if it were right then admit it was wrong? Did the preacher lie willingly? Or was Satan using the girl to embarass the preacher into recanting the truth? Satan has a way of ending up in the right place at just the right time. Also, does God use confusion (screaming) to relay a message unto His sheep and His shepherd? Confusion and interuption is of the Devil. Not of God.

I fact, when is the last time you heard anyone stand up during a sermon screaming every time the preacher made a mistake? Preachers are not perfect. And God does not use interuption of screaming as correction.

Now I've been doing a little series on revivals, I was going to do a piece on Jonathan Edwards because that was another revival that started off with utter simplicity, I couldn't find the source I had read a few years ago where J.E. stated that the revival had begun and was going on for a few weeks before they realised God was working among them. But the more I read about J.E. the more I saw how it all began to go wrong [I think I see why it went wrong, but well who am I to say] but in the later stages of it people were cutting their throats-literally-revivals do go wrong and sometimes at the end of them you have to balance the successes with the failures, but they always start in simplicity-the problems start with man not with God.

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I don't have any comment on that quote.

I don't take what I believe so personal that I take offense. I debate with zeal. I'm not even remotely close to becoming mad or offended. If I were that easy to offend, I could not mod or debate without an unGodly attitude.

I learned a few years ago that things debated are not really worth getting mad enough over. Besides, I don't take stress to well anymore.

The most that happens to me in a debate is that I get fustrated when my debate opponent does not get the point (either not understanding, or on purpose). And usually I will throw up a flag and say: let's agree to disagree.

So if you were worried that I was taking it personally, not even close. And I don't hold grudges either. It would not work because I debate so many people, I could not remember who did what anyway :huh: . Unless it was very mean or demeaning. That I don't forget. So no worries here :) .

#17 CTD

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Posted 13 May 2009 - 03:38 AM

Believing one cannot be saved is the best reason I can imagine to scream.

Teaching someone they cannot be saved is utterly, totally, and absolutely wrong. Satan himself will gladly tell this lie to anyone and everyone. Accepting it amounts to what?

I only know of one case that comes close to "cannot be saved": those who are to accept the mark of the beast. That's more accurately a case of will not be saved. Those people are so committed to evil they have no desire to be saved. They throw in and sign up to oppose God forever - of course they won't be saved.

"God cannot save you." Of the lies, I prefer the more obviously blasphemous version, "God Himself cannot save you". It has that ring of utterly stupid and nonsensical defiance that just cannot be missed. That version demands rejection, although its meaning is really the same.

We know there are multitudes who will not be saved. We do not know of any who cannot be saved. Not one.

Edited by CTD, 13 May 2009 - 03:40 AM.


#18 ikester7579

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Posted 13 May 2009 - 04:53 AM

Believing one cannot be saved is the best reason I can imagine to scream.

Teaching someone they cannot be saved is utterly, totally, and absolutely wrong. Satan himself will gladly tell this lie to anyone and everyone. Accepting it amounts to what?


Who was teaching this? No-osas is not about losing salvation and not being able to get it back.

And the blasphemy sin can ony be done by a saved person. Because if a unsaved person can commit such a sin and be locked into damnation before the choice to be saved is given. Then sin becomes stronger than the shed blood of Christ. And that is wrong because Satan cannot be stronger than God in any instance.

Now after you are saved and you blaspheme, then you "knew" better and did it anyway. And here why:

James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

You are only going to knoweth to do good if you have Christ in your heart. Knowledge of the sin is what makes it a sin just like that verse says. So when the unsaved sinner blasphemes the Holy Ghost. And he has never been given the choice of salvation. The sin does not count. Besides, you have to be in God's covenant before the rules of the covenant apply.

Question:
What rules of the covenant of Christ apply to the unsaved sinner? None. So how is the rules of certain sins going to apply when they are already going to eternal damnation? Can one be doubled damned? So you see, it does not work that way because there is no verses to support it. And there are no rules of a covenant to apply to someone who is aready damned.

Example:
Unsaved sinner = eternal damnation.
Unsaved sinner + eternal damnation + blaspheming = double damnation?


I only know of one case that comes close to "cannot be saved": those who are to accept the mark of the beast. That's more accurately a case of will not be saved. Those people are so committed to evil they have no desire to be saved. They throw in and sign up to oppose God forever - of course they won't be saved.


Well that's after those who have accepted Christ's covenent are gone. It is said to accept the mark of the beast is to lose you soul.

"God cannot save you." Of the lies, I prefer the more obviously blasphemous version, "God Himself cannot save you". It has that ring of utterly stupid and nonsensical defiance that just cannot be missed. That version demands rejection, although its meaning is really the same.

We know there are multitudes who will not be saved. We do not know of any who cannot be saved. Not one.

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Yep, and that is their choice not to be saved, But, one unforgiven sin = no salvation. Can one enter into Heaven with sin?

And what version do you speak of?

#19 CTD

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Posted 14 May 2009 - 03:34 AM

Who was teaching this? No-osas is not about losing salvation and not being able to get it back.

It sure sounds that way to some folks.

The very term "unforgivable sin" pretty much says it cannot be forgiven. That's not the term I find in scripture.

1. [28] Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
2. [29] But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:


This is a very serious matter, and I don't claim to fully understand it. One can ignore this part of the verse or that, and base an oversimplified understanding upon what remains. For example, I could focus on the last phrase about danger, ignore the rest, and just say "It's no big deal; all sin puts one in danger of eternal damnation".

I know it would be wrong to do this, and it's just as wrong to ignore the danger phrase. I take the issue seriously myself. When miracles an signs are reported I am slow to attribute them to Satan, even if I suspect he may be involved.

I don't think it's good at all to take things that are hard to understand and build up doctrines around attempts to oversimplify them. Understanding should come first - then doctrines after.

And the blasphemy sin can ony be done by a saved person. Because if a unsaved person can commit such a sin and be locked into damnation before the choice to be saved is given. Then sin becomes stronger than the shed blood of Christ. And that is wrong because Satan cannot be stronger than God in any instance.

Now after you are saved and you blaspheme, then you "knew" better and did it anyway. And here why:

James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

You are only going to knoweth to do good if you have Christ in your heart. Knowledge of the sin is what makes it a sin just like that verse says. So when the unsaved sinner blasphemes the Holy Ghost. And he has never been given the choice of salvation. The sin does not count. Besides, you have to be in God's covenant before the rules of the covenant apply.

I disagree with your reasoning. One does not have to be saved to know God exists. Nothing says the unsaved never had a chance of salvation, either.

Question:
What rules of the covenant of Christ apply to the unsaved sinner? None. So how is the rules of certain sins going to apply when they are already going to eternal damnation? Can one be doubled damned? So you see, it does not work that way because there is no verses to support it. And there are no rules of a covenant to apply to someone who is aready damned.

Example:
Unsaved sinner = eternal damnation.
Unsaved sinner + eternal damnation + blaspheming = double damnation?
Well that's after those who have accepted Christ's covenent are gone. It is said to accept the mark of the beast is to lose you soul.
Yep, and that is their choice not to be saved, But, one unforgiven sin = no salvation. Can one enter into Heaven with sin?

Here we have another major flaw. A Pharisee at that time would not be included in the same covenant. Although I don't understand it well enough to argue the point, Jews (actually all Hebrews) even today are said to have a different covenant than Gentiles.

I really don't see much way to claim the Pharisees who condemned our Lord were "saved", as your line would require. I think one would rewrite/distort a lot of scripture in order to implement the ad hocs needed to supplement any doctrine of "unforgivable sins", and probable "losing salvation" as well. I don't think the two ideas are terribly distinct from one another.

You also overlook the different types/aspects of forgiveness. The more typical confusion one encounters is the idea that being forgiven and permitted to enter heaven should exempt on from consequences in this lifetime. We know forgiveness in one aspect does not automatically entail forgiveness in all aspects.

Another example would be the oft distorted quote from our Lord "Forgive them father, for they know not what they do". Those who laid hands on God's Holy Son were not just "blanket saved" on the spot. They never repented, and they still have plenty of sin to their charge, for all we know. But they weren't struck dead on the spot, and I don't think those specific actions will be laid to their charge come Judgement Day.

I suspect you may be overlooking Judgement Day as well. Every sin counts. Or is that day just a waste of time? Not all will suffer equally throughout eternity. Equal time, yes. Equal torment, no. Absolutely not. Likewise the elect will be judged. Some will receive great rewards, and some will receive less, and some won't get much at all.

Now if one takes the judgements into account, there is no simple "forgiven sin = saved and unforgiven sin = unsaved". A sin may be forgiven in one way and not the other. One may be saved or unsaved, and still have sins to answer for. Likewise one may be saved or unsaved and possibly obtain forgiveness in other senses.

Understanding these things will also serve to demolish the absurd idea of "OSAS means Christians can just sin away with no consequences". There are consequences in this life and for eternity; scripture isn't at all unclear about this.

And what version do you speak of?

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I mentioned two versions of a lie. One without and one with the term 'Himself'. If the lie is to be encountered, I prefer the version that's most in-your-face about being untrue.

#20 ikester7579

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Posted 16 May 2009 - 12:45 AM

Question:

Let's say I believed in osas. And because of unconditional salvation, I decided to live it up, party, etc... Now I'm not saying all osas believe this, I'm using it as an example.

Anyway, what would you say about my salvation because of what I do?

1) Would you say I was never truly saved if I lived that way? And how through scripture would you determine this?
2) Would Christ accept me as a sheep, or would I be a goat for living such a life?

Saying that my life has to be as I believe, then you are actually admitting to kingdom works. Which is proof (evidence) of our salvation, not how we get it.

That is what no-osas is, You have to have evidence of your salvation. That is what the works judgment is all about.

Faith without works is what? Dead. Now if you enter this word (kingdom works) it becomes more clear.... Faih without kingdom works is dead. See how that makes more sense?

You see works that you boast about are carnal because they bring no glory to God. And will burn up in the works judgement.
Works you do for God,and give glory to God, are kingdom works. This is the evidence of our salvation. And will not burn up. They will also be the works we get crowns for that we will toss at God's feet.

To have works that don't burn up, you have to do what?
To get crowns that you will toss at God's feet, you have to do what?

God's chosen people is another issue I will do another thread on.




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