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#21 Adam Nagy

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Posted 15 May 2009 - 06:47 AM

Here is an out right example of evoluton evangelism talk:

Don't give up hope. My sister worked through her crazy "born-again" period, I gotta believe Adam is smart enough to do so to.

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I took special note of that comment to my sister as well. It is odd to see someone actively evangelizing for a belief system that offers no hope and has no foundation of truth.

Pascal's wager is not a proof for God but it is a logically consistent argument to make the proselytizing atheist a fool.

Don't get me wrong. I think there is a difference between an atheist trying to find answers and understand the other side versus an atheist like Assist24 (Occam's Aftershave) who is seeking to convince others to lose their faith in God.

If I believe in God and am wrong, when I die I become nothing and my prior belief isn't going to haunt me because when I die I'm nothing and nothing does think about the decisions it made when it was something.

On the other hand an atheist who lives a life rejecting God and finds out they're wrong, the loss is unimaginable. They'll discover that they not only destroyed their own lives but they were most certainly instrumental in destroying the lives of others.

This all really does beg the question:

Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?

Why does an atheist think they have something worth fighting for? What is this worth? Why do they imagine that a life of hopelessness and vanity is better?

I love this simple verse:

I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life...

We all have set before us life or death, blessing or cursing... salvation or atheism. In case the choice between the two is overly difficult God even gives the answer... choose life :lol: hint, hint, hint...

I like how I heard it put once; Even if (this is a big if...) the evidence and arguments could be determined equal, to find agreement that the evidence and arguments for and against the existence of God were equal and irreconcilable why would anyone choose to reject the evidence for God?

#22 ikester7579

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Posted 15 May 2009 - 09:56 PM

I've said it before and I'll say it again - my brother is extremely smart, and a very nice person, as well. I love him dearly. I realize that his attachment to fundamentalism is highly emotional. He's not the first intelligent, good-hearted person who has ever embraced Christianity whole-heartedly for emotional reasons, is he?



If you really want to debate the sciences behind evolution, you or any of the fellow cowardly pukes hiding behind your skirt are free to post here anytime you want. Go ahead and sign up, start as many threads as you want, present your evidence. See how well your chest thumping anti-science verbal diarrhea stands up under real critical scrutiny. Post in a place where you'll get called on your bulls**t and lies, and where you can't delete posts at will and ban people who make arguments you don't like and can't refute.

Show us what ya got you cowards, I dare you.


This is what is funny. They claim stuff such as we do, is because of emotional reasons, because they do not understand us. Then they get emotional about what they believe. :rolleyes:

Now what is scientific about that response? Nothing. And the reason we don't come over there is because it would do no good. It's like this video makes so very clear:

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Evolution does not reign supreme because of the evidence. It reigns supreme because of how it governs itself. They make the rules, break the rules, say who the rules apply to and who they don't. Require of others things they will not require of themselves. And basically run everything like a communist-socialist government would. Either believe as we do, or be rejected, destroyed or removed. It's just that simple.

As one o their own peers put it so well:

Science, is fundamentally, a game with one over riding and defining rule:
Let's see how far, and to what extent we can explain the behavior of the physical and material universe in terms of  purely physical and material causes without "EVER" invoking the supernatural. [Involving God] in the explanation constitutes a form of intellectual cheating. A chess player is perfectly capable of smashing his opponents king on the floor during a tournament, but this does not make him a champion because the rules were not followed. Evolution is not promoted because of overwhelming evidence in it's favor, nor is creation rejected for lack of evidence. The biblical creation model is simply ignored because scientists are trained to ignore this possibility. They would be accused of "cheating" if they did accept the evidence for creation.
Richard Dickerson  (Biochemist-evolutionist) Member of National Academy of science . February 1, a closer look at the evidence.


With that kind of bias and hatred, plus a one way system that guarantees evolution will always remain top dog. The tables are already tilted in their favor. It's the very same thing they complain about when they come over here. Evolutionists like to dose out their medicine that they will always be right (narcissism). But when that ego that is carried along with that gets bruised because some one gives it back the same way. Hate and rage are the only alternatives.

Example: What evidence has science "ever" accepted that supports creation? None. So why would they start now?

Our goal here at this ministry is to reach the reachable. Those who have decided to make a personal war against God are not reachable. And it's their choice. Bible scoffers, wolves in sheep's clothing (pretending to be Christian to some degree). Are people who have chosen to be against God.

But what makes this whole thing funny to me is that the war they rage against God everyday, actually proves God exists. How? Either in their intellect they have to admit to chasing what they claim does not exist. Which is not logical or reasonable. Or they have to admit that God does exist,and that they reject Him willingly.

Example: If I claim Ghosts don't exist. Then I'm AGhost. Now what makes me AGhost more than anything is because I spend a lot of my time fighting what I claim does not exist.

Now if I truly applied what I believed about Ghosts, I would not waste 2 minutes of my time, or 2 cents of my money. And what that would mean is that I "truly" don't believe in Ghosts which makes me not against Ghosts.

Now why is that important? Your mind first has to preconceive that something "is" there before you can be against it. One cannot be against what he "truly" believes does not exist. Do you "truly" believe God dos not exist? Your forum, and the time an money you spend does not relay that. It relays that God is, and you guys just reject that.

Example 2: Let's say I decided to run a forum that is called the AGhost forum. Fighting what I claim does not exist. Everyday I spend hours in debates those who believe in Ghosts trying to convince them Ghosts don't exist. Never pondering that my actual actions actually relay that I know they exist. I just deny it and need constant justification in order to continue believing this way.

So are atheist forums a place where atheists need constant justification that God does not exist because they really know that He does? Or are you guys just irrational and illogical in trying to convey it?

So you see, in our eyes you look just as stupid as you claim that we are. We are just more polite in not reminding you of this on an everyday bases because we don't need justification for what we believe. Why? We "truly" believe it.

if only ikester notices the irony! haha

D*mmit, my irony meter just blew up


I have for a long time. And it's funny from this end as well.

Goddidit. Next!


No, evoution "time god" did it. Given enough time anything is possible.

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#23 ikester7579

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Posted 16 May 2009 - 05:49 PM

Never mind the fact that I am an agnostic, not an atheist, and have not once, not ever counciled anyone to lose their faith in God. I've never even come close to the topic. Adam is still so deluded he can't grasp that rejecting a 6000 year old special creation does not equate to rejecting God. Maybe someday the lightbulb will come on.

Adam, I know you're still coming back over here to read this. Start posting here again and we can talk about this man to man, without being dragged down by that idiot Ikester. Whenever you're ready...


LOL, hey Adam. He's never counselled anyone before, but if you come back, he will council you man to man. :rolleyes:

I'm the evil one whom says you must believe literally in God. Occam's Aftershave is the good one whom claims you can believe what ever you want and still go to heaven. How? Occam's Aftershave is an expert on Bible issues. He is smarter than the Bible, and even God himself. That's how he knows what's best for you Adam. And how you should believe.

If that's not counselling, I don't know what is.

That would be like me claiming I have never tried to evangelize anyone, but if a member from over there came here. I'd show them how to believe in God without denying evolution (which is not what I believe one can do). Which is still giving council.

Compromising faith can still be deemed as rejecting God. Since Occam's Aftershave says Adam can do this, let's see Occam's Aftershave provide Biblical verses to support his claim. If he cannot, then this is his own opinion which makes this his own doctrine. Which also means he has his own religion (religion of compromise).

#24 Adam Nagy

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Posted 16 May 2009 - 08:30 PM

Maybe if I go over there, he can convince me about how he's not trying to convince me of anything.

The funny thing is I couldn't log back in over there if I tried. I have no intention of casting pearls over there again so I gave myself a password that makes it impossible for me to log in. They think we're the ones that won't leave people alone. :rolleyes:

So why is he so mad that I'm leaving him alone?

If my assessment of atheists doesn't pertain to him, then he has nothing to get upset about.

#25 ikester7579

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Posted 16 May 2009 - 09:51 PM

This is rich:

Guess what idiot. Accepting physical reality over a literal interpretation of Genesis does not compromise Christian faith for the vast majority of Christians. And as far as me supporting my claims, I was doing that in spades when you got too embarrassed and decided to ban me. Just like you ban everyone who points out your ignorance and stupidity.


LOL, if you (assist24) were actually promoting a truth you would not hide behind other names to spread your dishonesty so that your lies won't be traced back to you.

Also, are you guaranteeing that everyone who compromising God's word is going to Heaven anyway? That's universalism.

And by the way, you can claim to be agnostic all you want. Your posts prove you are atheist. How? When you speak about God, His word, or the ones who believe in Him. You have not one positive thing to say. So saying what is negative about something you would claim does not exist, means you acknowledge that it does or you would have nothing to say about it. That makes you an atheist.

Also, why do you call me all these names? Because of what I believe and nothing else, right? Which also makes you an atheist as well. If I had joined your forum and spoke positively about evolution, we would probably be friends right? So choosing to be enemies because I am a theist, makes you an atheist.

And all of the other members here that you call names and make fun of. Confirms this several times over. So you cannot claim that I lie about this because you leave to many examples of being an atheist every time you post negative stuff about people just because they are theist.

Or would you like to explain why you hate members here without using anything theist to explain it? You cannot because it's the "only" main reason that you do.

Us + theist = the only reason you hate us = you being atheist.

Unless you want to name 5 reasons that have nothing to do with theism as the reason you hate us and call us names?

#26 ikester7579

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Posted 16 May 2009 - 10:10 PM

Maybe if I go over there, he can convince me about how he's not trying to convince me of anything.

The funny thing is I couldn't log back in over there if I tried. I have no intention of casting pearls over there again so I gave myself a password that makes it impossible for me to log in. They think we're the ones that won't leave people alone. :rolleyes:

So why is he so mad that I'm leaving him alone?

If my assessment of atheists doesn't pertain to him, then he has nothing to get upset about.

View Post


He want to evangelize you. I can see him foaming at the mouth just thinking about it.


This is getting ridiculous. OA and Ikester, wouldn't it just be easier to speak to each other on one message board, rather than going back and forth from FR to EFT and by this rather cumbersome method debating each other? I mean, I'm enjoying the debate very much, but wouldn't it be easier and more streamlined to just debate on one discussion board?


Not really. Think about it. We both get to say what we want. No one gets hurt or banned. And when one decides they have had enough, they just quit reading the other forum and it's over. Actually I like not having to mod this.

In fact, maybe we are on to something and did not even realize it. Maybe we can debate this way (if Fred approves). Make a few rules (though I'm not sure what if any). And we actually bypass all this other stuff that causes both sides headaches.

Well, you could be right.  It's just that I hate liars and hypocrites worse than the plague, and part of me feels compelled to not let such lies and hypocrisy go unchallenged. I also take the threat to science education by the Fundy wingnuts in this country very seriously, and feel all Creationist anti-science stupidity should be opposed at every turn. It's that 'think globally, act locally' thing.

If enough people point and laugh at the EFT lies and hypocrisy, maybe people will realize what an intellectual cesspool they are. New folks stumbling across them will be alerted too.


The last I looked, science has no absolutes. So to call or imply that someone is an absolute liar, you would have to have absolute truth. Which would make evolution unflasifiable and no longer a theory.

Your ignorance in this area is just amazing, that I would even have to explain that to you. I think your hate has blinded you.

They're like termites who are gnawing at the foundation of the house. Doesn't look like they are doing much damage until one day the wind blows and the whole house collapses into a pile. I personally won't tolerate any attacks on the science education of my country.


And they complain about us being intolerant. I guess it's a do as I say, not as I do mentality.

#27 ikester7579

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Posted 17 May 2009 - 01:29 AM

Now they make the comment that we, with our ideas, are going to destroy science. Well this is what science wants to do.

Meet Frankenstein cow (super cow).

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Now, when they bring back eugenics like Dawkins wants to do. To make super humans like Hitler wanted to make the super race. How do you think humans will look if they are already messing with cows?

I saw a program the other day on the science channel called superhuman. It's where they are researching on how to make humans more like those who are born with certain gifts that are rare. One person doing the research admitted to this splitting the society and causing a racism type deal.

This is because it will be expensive to do this for someone so that they can have a child with extraordinary gift or gifts. The normal and poor people will no longer be able to compete and will basically become enslaved because of the classing of higher and lower intelligence.

So science, with the help of evolution. Will make society return to the dark ages of racism by trying to bring humans to the next level of evolution. While only selecting the rich, and leaving behind the poor.

So regardless of how they try paint a nasty picture of religion, their past is as bad and worse. But allowing one's self to deny it only guarantees it will be repeated. Ad it looks like it won't be long until the mentality of what Hitler did, and tried to do. Will be common once again.

#28 Adam Nagy

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Posted 17 May 2009 - 04:17 AM

I think it's sad how Occam (assist24) is trying to create this slippery slope. The sky is falling! The sky is falling! The YECs are ruining science! ;)

http://www.freeratio...662#post5938662

Special breeding was around before Darwin and it will be around after Darwin. Either paradigm allows the exact same science to occur. The scientific method is preserved in either case. The only difference would be that the pseudoscience, fairytale story telling, will no longer be tax funded. It will have to survive on its own the way Creationist organizations maintain cash flow, true public support. I find it repugnant that all of us still have to pay to see high school students lied to about embryos having gill slits.

Posted Image

I just picked up the above Earth Science book from my local high school and they're still teaching that mammal embryos have gill slits. This was a proven fraud by 1885! Our science education is repulsive because evolution pseudoscience has a strangle hold on biology in the tax funded environments. Science has become much more interesting learning the dark side of evolution. I've learned more science in the last three years then I ever learned in high school and I liked science in high school. You know, the good stuff. The real science. The stuff you can observe, test and demonstrate.

As long as evolution fairytales are being taught in school, they should teach all about evolution not just the lies that support it. :rolleyes:

#29 Adam Nagy

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Posted 17 May 2009 - 02:37 PM

It's kind of weird watching them huff and puff over there. This is the Occam that brings back fond memories for me:

http://www.freeratio...009#post5939009

I think he used this one on me before as well:

You wanted me to quote a Bible verse for you? Here's a good one

Exodus 20:16 "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour."

That means no lying, or you burn in hell. Better start heeding it quick!

He uses the Law without understanding, and threatens you with a Hell he doesn't believe in. :)

#30 ikester7579

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Posted 17 May 2009 - 08:07 PM

It's kind of weird watching them huff and puff over there. This is the Occam that brings back fond memories for me:

http://www.freeratio...009#post5939009

I think he used this one on me before as well:

You wanted me to quote a Bible verse for you? Here's a good one

Exodus 20:16 "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour."

That means no lying, or you burn in hell. Better start heeding it quick!

He uses the Law without understanding, and threatens you with a Hell he doesn't believe in. :)

View Post


They only remember verses that justify their beliefs, and condemn others who do not believe as they do. Using a Biblical verse like this and putting out a warning. Proves he knows God exists, he just prefers to deny it.

It's like the story a preacher told once, who was also a MD. And had several degrees. He had several friends who were atheists. When he would tell them of healing at his church, they laughed. So he put them to a bet. He asked them that if they saw a person get healed, and the evidence was right in front of them. Would they believe? Well because they always preach that if they saw it, they would believe it. They had to answer yes.

So the Doctor-Preacher invited them to a healing service in which as special guests they had front row seats. Several people came forward and got healed of several things. Every so often the preacher would go over to them and ask: Do you believe now? They would respond with: Anyone can fake that.

Then towards the end of the service, a young girl came forward who had a leg shorter than the other. Those men could clearly see this. She asked for prayer and everyone prayed. And right before everyone's eyes, the leg grew out to normal length. She then was so happy she ran around the whole church over and over again.

The preacher went over to the three men he had invited and asked the same question. One said that he now believed, the other two said no. So he asked them why? And each one had the same story. If I become saved, what would my wife think? What would my friends at the golf course think. And I would have to start living a Christian life. I'm not ready for that drastic of a change. I still have time.

And so goes the idea that If I saw it I would believe. Because one excuse just gets traded for another because seeing was not really the issue. Just an excuse.

#31 ikester7579

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Posted 17 May 2009 - 08:16 PM

And here is the perfect example of why creation does not have any scientific merit.


I'm worried about the allocation of the science research dollars if the fundies get their hands on the purse strings. Can you see a few hundred million for Ark exploration, or baraminology research? And zero for stem cell research because it upsets their fundy sensibilities? It's not as implausible as you might think.


Their agenda is the only agenda that the money shall be spent on. This quote speaks volumes about why these debates even exist, and their side always says what they do. I just laugh at the irony of it all.

#32 Adam Nagy

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Posted 17 May 2009 - 08:22 PM

I think we should start a thread about science that wouldn't work without evolution. I think I will.

http://www.evolution...?showtopic=2347

#33 ikester7579

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Posted 18 May 2009 - 03:51 AM

Here is what is really strange. Science is wrong in oh so many ways but watch them grab for the meds when an illness strikes or go to the evil Doctor who most certainly uses scientific research.


What made the rules or laws in which the systems of the human body function and work in harmony which allow the meds to work? But the meds are no where near perfect. Ever take a med that was supposed to help you but instead it almost killed you? And because they have these side effects written on it, they can kill anyone and get away with it because as long as the percentage is low, it's acceptable. So killing a loved one, through science is now acceptable?

The meds are made up of existing substances, right? You guys create from substances totally new that you create from nothing and not made from anything in this universe that already existed. Then I will listen to your God does not exist message.

Next you will claim that the computer I am using was created by science. What created the laws in which the computer is able to work? What created ohms law? Without that one law, your computer would not work. In fact, no electronic device would work. So how did ohms law just poof itself? Was it the ohms fairy?

Can you guys own up to the God complex you imply and break ohms law and make a computer work around ohms law along with every electronic device? No? Then you are controlled by that law. And therefore controlled by the law maker.

Laws just don't poof themselves into existence from the law fairy. Laws just don't work in harmony because there maybe a harmony fairy.

Laws that work in harmony means that there was a formula to make this happen. To make a formula you have to have intelligence. Now if you don't think formulas need balance and therefore intelligence. Ask your pharmacist to fill your next med with meds that required no intelligence to make.

#34 Bex

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Posted 18 May 2009 - 04:27 AM

Here is what is really strange. Science is wrong in oh so many ways but watch them grab for the meds when an illness strikes or go to the evil Doctor who most certainly uses scientific research.


To consider it hypocritical for a creationist (critical of the theory of evolution) to seek a doctor or medical attention at some point in their life makes little sense, especially when one considers the following:

Perhaps the greatest (or one of the greatest) scientist of modern times who has saved hundreds of millions of lives through his discoveries of vaccines for different (once deadly) diseases, e.g. (tuberculosis, rabies) was a fervent creationist. His name is Louis Pasteur. I suggest that if any evolutionist who has an attitude regarding creationists and science/medicine goes to a hospital, might (with this knowledge in mind) need to either swallow his/her evolution pride or refuse treatment to uphold their evolution principles :) .

I presume they're not buying pasteurised milk?!

I'd suggest that one who is ignorant about such might look up the history of all the sciences, whose many founding fathers were creation scientists. Here's an example: 100 famous bible-believing scientists

Moreover, all the great achievements and discoveries of modern space exploration in the west have depended upon the brilliant rocket science of Werner Von Braun. He also was a fervant creationist and should one wish, I could supply one of several humble tributes paid by him to the God of creation and especially the Universe!

#35 Adam Nagy

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Posted 18 May 2009 - 06:39 AM

Bex, you aren't saying that people who believe in creation can do science are you. :o

#36 jason777

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Posted 18 May 2009 - 07:01 AM

Heres a link to the thread where i've listed the majority of "Fathers of science".

www.evolutionfairytale.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=1983

Edit:I did'nt notice,Bex beat me to it.

#37 Bex

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Posted 18 May 2009 - 07:06 AM

Bex, you aren't saying that people who believe in creation can do science are you. :o

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:o I know it's a shock Adam, but ..... yes!

#38 ikester7579

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Posted 18 May 2009 - 10:52 PM

I see in post 129 from over there. A member has decided to say what most of them would like to say, but only think it. Now you know why I don't join or debate at forums like that. Once a post like that goes up, I leave. And it don't take long for it to happen either.

Also that post with all the fowl language shows just how weak evolution is that any debate has to end up like that in the first place. Not one bit is remotely scientific unless promotion of hatred is now part of the scientific method. I wondered how long it would take before someone posted something like this. Thread did not last past the 6th page.

#39 CTD

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Posted 19 May 2009 - 12:05 AM

I see in post 129 from over there. A member has decided to say what most of them would like to say, but only think it. Now you know why I don't join or debate at forums like that. Once a post like that goes up, I leave. And it don't take long for it to happen either.

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Actually, they seem to be pretty consistent. If you assess actual vs. stated worldviews, you'll find satanic types posing as atheists and atheists posing as agnostic or theological evolutionists (or "liberal christians") quite a bit. You even find satanics posing as atheists posing as theological evolutionists.

It's all about recruiting and PR. If someone's just started slipping down the slope, they're not likely to buy into the outright satanic stuff right away. Doesn't do to advertise that stuff too openly. Recruiting goes step-by-step, and appearances are feigned in order to facilitate the process.

Pantheism & paganism are alternative destinations, but that crowd doesn't fake nearly so much. Their recruiting pool is what it is, and it's large enough they generally don't feel it's urgent to require artificial expansion. The two groups get along as long as there are Christians to oppose; but when the situation changes you get Stalin vs. Hitler, naturalist atheism vs. supernaturalist atheism.

The disconnect here is that naturalist atheism partners with satanics. But pay attention to what they're always saying: "If you can show me something supernatural, I'll believe." Now folks on both sides understand that the dedicated never intend under any circumstances to have any dealings with a loving God. They're full of hate, and when they're shown something at an opportune time, they'll either accept it and happily take after Satan, or reject it like the hypocrites they practice being, and remain where they are. The odd appearance of the pairing is just superficial. It makes sense, in its own way.

One has to watch 'em pretty closely in many cases, and at the rate they're determined to cycle through here, it's hard to get a sufficient sample size to conduct a proper assessment. I guess honesty and proper conduct aren't very high on their list of artifices to adopt.

#40 de_skudd

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Posted 19 May 2009 - 11:24 AM

If you assess actual vs. stated worldviews, you'll find satanic types posing as atheists and atheists posing as agnostic or theological evolutionists (or "liberal christians") quite a bit. You even find satanics posing as atheists posing as theological evolutionists.

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I think you’re pretty accurate in your assessment, but the atheist posing as an agnostic is a safety valve that atheists gravitate towards because no admitted atheist can live as an actual atheist (materialist) in reality.

Once atheists failed to convince themselves what a real atheist was, they invented terms like “hard” atheist and “soft” atheist (which are realy agnostics). :lol:




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