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Is Hell Eternal?


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#41 Seth

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Posted 25 January 2010 - 02:22 PM

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It's always through "other christians" why do you not read for yourself in the bible? which of God's 10 commandments by breaking have you been set free from this "cruel Father" you talk about. Jesus has in no wise aolished the commandments, if you say that breaking them has "set you free" I must doubt that you are truly a child of God.

If you are filled with the Holy Spirit you will not wilfully break any of the 10 commandments.

Jesus warned plenty about the danger of hell, eternal punishment, it is true He scarcely ever directly threatened anybody, His warnings mostly are given generally but they are stark for all that.

The imputation of righteousness that God gives is not imaginary, it is more than a belief in the mind. Jesus was righteous, He did not sin. John says that we should walk as He walked, as He was in the world so should we be. We will overcome sin by allowing Christ to truly live in us.

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God always uses people, whether prophets of the Old Testament or Apostles in the new or Christians. And they always, or should always, refer BACK to God's Word.

This is getting outside the main subject however it is true that Jesus did not abolish the law He FULFILLED it.
I was made free from the IDEA that my relationship with God is based on His Commandments. It is not. It is based on our Faith in the work of Jesus Christ and His sacrifice. We have PEACE with God THROUGH Jesus Christ. Commandment keeping doesn't make any of us RIGHT with God, we are MADE right with God THROUGH Jesus. That's the point.

We will fail if we are constantly thinking about keeping God's law or focusing on our sins (sin conscience) instead of focusing on God and Jesus. Does that mean we should break the law? Of course not but to keep God's law comes through our relationship with God.

In other words is your relationship with your Mother, Father, Brother, Sister, Son, Daughter, Friend etc. based on "laws" or Love? Love comes first then from that love we automatically keep God's laws. I had it backwards. Commandment keeping comes first then from keeping the law we automatically love God. That's wrong!

Who has a relationship with anybody based on "laws"? You can be my friend and I'll love you as a friend if you first abide by my list of do's and dont's on how to be my friend FIRST, THEN we can be friends. Isn't it normally you become friends first THEN based on that friendship, that relationship, you learn of each other's likes and dislikes and out of respect and love for your friend you approach them in a way that expresses that love? It is THEN you DO things as to not offend your friend, NOW that you know certain things about them. So I don't focus on "keeping" God's laws or on "my" sins. I focus on my relationship with God and Jesus who have made me acceptable, righteous and clean through Jesus. I have an open honest relationship with God the Father and tell Him everything. My fears, my weaknesses, my issues etc. I don't hide them from Him (as if I could anyways) but as my loving Father, like in any honest relationship, I have the confidense in His love for me to help me through anything. I don't feel condemned or even judged, I feel loved. Giving Him thanks always and praise for His great Love. THAT, is why I will not "willfully" break His commandments, not because of "fear" of breaking them but rather because of my "love" for Him.

It's much the same way in any relationship where you love another person. Nobody loves you because you're perfect or keep most of your friends "commandments". But as the relationship grows so does the maturity of that relationship.

To have Christ truly live in us, is to have a RELATIONSHIP with Him through the love given to us that is in us by His Holy Spirit. Which is a spirit of Power and a Sound Mind and Love. 2 Timothy 1:7 For God has NOT given us a spirit of FEAR, but of Power and of LOVE and of a Sound Mind.

#42 the totton linnet

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Posted 25 January 2010 - 02:41 PM

God always uses people, whether prophets of the Old Testament or Apostles in the new or Christians. And they always, or should always, refer BACK to God's Word.

This is getting outside the main subject however it is true that Jesus did not abolish the law He FULFILLED it.
I was made free from the IDEA that my relationship with God is based on His Commandments. It is not. It is based on our Faith in the work of Jesus Christ and His sacrifice. We have PEACE with God THROUGH Jesus Christ. Commandment keeping doesn't make any of us RIGHT with God, we are MADE right with God THROUGH Jesus. That's the point.

We will fail if we are constantly thinking about keeping God's law or focusing on our sins (sin conscience) instead of focusing on God and Jesus. Does that mean we should break the law? Of course not but to keep God's law comes through our relationship with God.

In other words is your relationship with your Mother, Father, Brother, Sister, Son, Daughter, Friend etc. based on "laws" or Love? Love comes first then from that love we automatically keep God's laws. I had it backwards. Commandment keeping comes first then from keeping the law we automatically love God. That's wrong!

Who has a relationship with anybody based on "laws"? You can be my friend and I'll love you as a friend if you first abide by my list of do's and dont's on how to be my friend FIRST, THEN we can be friends. Isn't it normally you become friends first THEN based on that friendship, that relationship, you learn of each other's likes and dislikes and out of respect and love for your friend you approach them in a way that expresses that love? It is THEN you DO things as to not offend your friend, NOW that you know certain things about them. So I don't focus on "keeping" God's laws or on "my" sins. I focus on my relationship with God and Jesus who have made me acceptable, righteous and clean through Jesus. I have an open honest relationship with God the Father and tell Him everything. My fears, my weaknesses, my issues etc. I don't hide them from Him (as if I could anyways) but as my loving Father, like in any honest relationship, I have the confidense in His love for me to help me through anything. I don't feel condemned or even judged, I feel loved. Giving Him thanks always and praise for His great Love. THAT, is why I will not "willfully" break His commandments, not because of "fear" of breaking them but rather because of my "love" for Him.

It's much the same way in any relationship where you love another person. Nobody loves you because you're perfect or keep most of your friends "commandments". But as the relationship grows so does the maturity of that relationship.

To have Christ truly live in us, is to have a RELATIONSHIP with Him through the love given to us that is in us by His Holy Spirit. Which is a spirit of Power and a Sound Mind and Love. 2 Timothy 1:7 For God has NOT given us a spirit of FEAR, but of Power and of LOVE and of a Sound Mind.

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That is very different in tone from the post I responded to

#43 performedge

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Posted 25 January 2010 - 04:14 PM

God always uses people, whether prophets of the Old Testament or Apostles in the new or Christians. And they always, or should always, refer BACK to God's Word.

This is getting outside the main subject however it is true that Jesus did not abolish the law He FULFILLED it.
I was made free from the IDEA that my relationship with God is based on His Commandments. It is not. It is based on our Faith in the work of Jesus Christ and His sacrifice. We have PEACE with God THROUGH Jesus Christ. Commandment keeping doesn't make any of us RIGHT with God, we are MADE right with God THROUGH Jesus. That's the point.

We will fail if we are constantly thinking about keeping God's law or focusing on our sins (sin conscience) instead of focusing on God and Jesus. Does that mean we should break the law? Of course not but to keep God's law comes through our relationship with God.

In other words is your relationship with your Mother, Father, Brother, Sister, Son, Daughter, Friend etc. based on "laws" or Love? Love comes first then from that love we automatically keep God's laws. I had it backwards. Commandment keeping comes first then from keeping the law we automatically love God. That's wrong!

Who has a relationship with anybody based on "laws"? You can be my friend and I'll love you as a friend if you first abide by my list of do's and dont's on how to be my friend FIRST, THEN we can be friends. Isn't it normally you become friends first THEN based on that friendship, that relationship, you learn of each other's likes and dislikes and out of respect and love for your friend you approach them in a way that expresses that love? It is THEN you DO things as to not offend your friend, NOW that you know certain things about them. So I don't focus on "keeping" God's laws or on "my" sins. I focus on my relationship with God and Jesus who have made me acceptable, righteous and clean through Jesus. I have an open honest relationship with God the Father and tell Him everything. My fears, my weaknesses, my issues etc. I don't hide them from Him (as if I could anyways) but as my loving Father, like in any honest relationship, I have the confidense in His love for me to help me through anything. I don't feel condemned or even judged, I feel loved. Giving Him thanks always and praise for His great Love. THAT, is why I will not "willfully" break His commandments, not because of "fear" of breaking them but rather because of my "love" for Him.

It's much the same way in any relationship where you love another person. Nobody loves you because you're perfect or keep most of your friends "commandments". But as the relationship grows so does the maturity of that relationship.

To have Christ truly live in us, is to have a RELATIONSHIP with Him through the love given to us that is in us by His Holy Spirit. Which is a spirit of Power and a Sound Mind and Love. 2 Timothy 1:7 For God has NOT given us a spirit of FEAR, but of Power and of LOVE and of a Sound Mind.

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well said...

When Saul matured into Paul he wrote this:

ICor 13:11 When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things.

Children need laws and rules and boundaries as to how they interact with other children. As we mature those rules are less necessary as love becomes our law of life and the golden rule becomes more of our lifestyle in Christ. Many of us have followed your same path Seth.

#44 performedge

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Posted 25 January 2010 - 04:39 PM

I see what you're saying Performedge. The word should probably be Immortal not Eternal, since Eternal is used mostly in referrence to things that have had no beginning, which satan obviously did have. I meant eternal as in to continue or be immortal. Thanks for the correction.

However if that's not what you're getting at and rather asking why I believe or where can we find in the Bible that the devil is immortal or does not die, we can look at one passage in Luke 20:36 where Jesus tells us,

"nor can they die anymore, for they are EQUAL to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection."

Angels cannot die and satan is an angel (a fallen one), in fact an archangel, and therefore immortal.

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Works for me.

I have over many years come to the same same conclusions as you on this subject.

Gehenna="Hell"=Lake of Fire=Second death==>final judgement

Sheol=Hades="Hell"=the grave or the place of disembodied spirits depending on context==>judgement after death before the second coming.

That in simplified form covers my understanding today.

#45 Scanman

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Posted 25 January 2010 - 04:57 PM

Works for me.

I have over many years come to the same same conclusions as you on this subject. 

Gehenna="Hell"=Lake of Fire=Second death==>final judgement

Sheol=Hades="Hell"=the grave or the place of disembodied spirits depending on context==>judgement after death before the second coming.

That in simplified form covers my understanding today.

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Actually,

Gehenna = Valley of Hinnom = Garbage dump outside of Jerusalem

Sheol/Hades = grave = unseen = abode of all the dead

Lake of Fire = Lake of Purification/Destruction

Hell is not a part of scripture.

Hell is a borrowed 'pagan' term

The concept of 'Hell' came to the Pharisees during their captivity in Babylon, it is of Zoroastrian origin.

Peace



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#46 performedge

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Posted 25 January 2010 - 04:59 PM

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Scripturally what makes me think that souls do not die or cease to exist is the word o the Son of God in Matt:25 concerning the goats, "these shall go away to eternal punishment" There are other sayings of His along the same lines, I will not gainsay Him.

What I said was quite clear, God created man a living soul, it will not die in the sense of ceasing to be. Because man is fallen from his high estate death has come upon him, death is a state, his flesh will die his spirit is already dead, slain in trespasses and sin. When we are born again God breathes His Spirit into us and once more we are made to live spiritually, our bodies will die and our souls will enter eternity either in a state of life or a state of death, whether in a state of death or life we will have new bodies fitted to our final abode at the Day of the Lord.

For the saved this is good news for now and for eternity, for all others thy must await the Lord's judgement.

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If you will look a little closer at Matt 25 you will see that what is eternal is the punishment. And what is the punishmnet? It is fire. Eternal fire. That's why in verse 41 which preceeds this it says clearly....

41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

So Matt 25 gives no indication of an eternal soul. But other scripture clealy indicated that the soul may perish...

28 "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell(gehenna).

I have searched the scriptures for a passage that indicates that our soul is eternal. Unfortunately, I cant's find any.

#47 performedge

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Posted 25 January 2010 - 05:34 PM

Actually,

Gehenna = Valley of Hinnom = Garbage dump outside of Jerusalem

Sheol/Hades = grave = unseen = abode of all the dead

Lake of Fire = Lake of Purification/Destruction

Hell is not a part of scripture.

Hell is a borrowed 'pagan' term

The concept of 'Hell' came to the Pharisees during their captivity in Babylon, it is of Zoroastrian origin.

Peace
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Well I agreed with you before, but I can't now.

Yes gehenna is the garbage dump outside of Jerusalem. It is used as a metaphor for the final punishment. Two things are vital to understanding the metaphor. One is that gehenna was outside, not inside the city of Jerusalem. Jerusalem is the picture of the chosen, gehenna is Jerusalem's trash. Gehenna was also a burning garbage dump. Therfore the symbolism of everlasting fire.

Hell is a translation. To say that it is not part of scripture is just disengenuous. You can clarify the translations as the NASB has done an excellent job. Hell=gehenna and Sheol and hades are left as they are. I think this is much more accurate. To literally defend that hell is not in the bible would mean that people are literally going to be thrown into the valley of hinnon. Is this what you believe?.

The lake of fire is not a separate entity on its own. It is gehenna. It is hell.

Mar 9:41 "For whoever gives you a cup of water to drink because of your name as followers of Christ, truly I say to you, he will not lose his reward.
Mar 9:42 "Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe to stumble, it would be better for him if, with a heavy millstone hung around his neck, he had been cast into the sea.
Mar 9:43 "If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire, Mar 9:44 [where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.]
Mar 9:45 "If your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame, than, having your two feet, to be cast into hell,
Mar 9:46 [where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.]
Mar 9:47 "If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into hell,
Mar 9:48 where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.

Jas 3:6 And the tongue is a fire, the very world of iniquity; the tongue is set among our members as that which defiles the entire body, and sets on fire the course of our life, and is set on fire by hell.

The word for hell in each of these passages is gehenna. This is where the imagery comes from.

"hell" is not a borrowed pagan term. Sheol is a Hebrew term. not borrowed. You may argue that hades was borrowed from the greeks, but it parallels sheol exactly so it was well before the pagans or the pharisees. Hell is an english word. your facts just aren't correct. You may want to study this further rather than repeating what you have read somewhere.

#48 Scanman

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Posted 25 January 2010 - 06:23 PM

Well I agreed with you before, but I can't now.

Yes gehenna is the garbage dump outside of Jerusalem.  It is used as a metaphor for the final punishment.  Two things are vital to understanding the metaphor.  One is that gehenna was outside, not inside the city of Jerusalem.  Jerusalem is the picture of the chosen, gehenna is Jerusalem's trash.  Gehenna was also a burning garbage dump.  Therfore the symbolism of everlasting fire.


It is a symbol of destruction. While the fire continues, what is destroyed does not.

Hell is a translation.  To say that it is not part of scripture is just disengenuous.  You can clarify the translations as the NASB has done an excellent job.  Hell=gehenna and Sheol and hades are left as they are.  I think this is much more accurate.  To literally defend that hell is not in the bible would mean that people are literally going to be thrown into the valley of hinnon.  Is this what you believe?.


I believe that Sheol & Hades are the grave, and that Gehenna is a place of destruction.

The lake of fire is not a separate entity on its own.  It is gehenna.  It is hell.


How can 'Hell' be thrown into 'Hell'?

Mar 9:41  "For whoever gives you a cup of water to drink because of your name as followers of Christ, truly I say to you, he will not lose his reward.
Mar 9:42  "Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe to stumble, it would be better for him if, with a heavy millstone hung around his neck, he had been cast into the sea.
Mar 9:43  "If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire, Mar 9:44  [where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.]
Mar 9:45  "If your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame, than, having your two feet, to be cast into hell,
Mar 9:46  [where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.]
Mar 9:47  "If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into hell,
Mar 9:48  where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.

Jas 3:6  And the tongue is a fire, the very world of iniquity; the tongue is set among our members as that which defiles the entire body, and sets on fire the course of our life, and is set on fire by hell.

The word for hell in each of these passages is gehenna.  This is where the imagery comes from.


Most of the modern 'Hell's imagery comes from Dante's Inferno.

"hell" is not a borrowed pagan term. 


Actually it is. The modern concept of 'Hell' is souls being tortured forever in a fiery abyss.

Sheol is a Hebrew term.  not borrowed.  You may argue that hades was borrowed from the greeks, but it parallels sheol exactly so it was well before the pagans or the pharisees.


Sheol - Hebrew for grave, hidden, abode of the dead
Hades - Septuagent translation of Sheol, which because of it's use, carried over greek concepts of the afterlife.

Hell is an english word.  your facts just aren't correct.


Actually the entymology of 'Hell' goes back to the germanic 'holle', to the proto germanic 'khaljo', to the Proto-Indo-European 'kel'...it is also where we get our word for 'hill' (i.e. burial mounds)

You may want to study this further rather than repeating what you have read somewhere.

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I've been studying this for a very long time.

Here is an excellant article concerning Hell:
Questions about Hell link

Here is an excerpt:

If Hell is real how could the Apostle Paul (who was especially commissioned by God to preach the gospel to the nations) say that he had declared the entire counsel of God (Acts 20:27), when indeed he never warned of “Hell” in any of his letters? If Hell is real, wouldn’t Paul, of all people, warn of it repeatedly?


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#49 the totton linnet

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Posted 25 January 2010 - 08:41 PM

If you will look a little closer at Matt 25 you will see that what is eternal is the punishment.  And what is the punishmnet? It is fire.  Eternal fire.  That's why in verse 41 which preceeds this it says clearly....

41  "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

So Matt 25 gives no indication of an eternal soul.  But other scripture clealy indicated that the soul may perish...

28  "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell(gehenna).

I have searched the scriptures for a passage that indicates that our soul is eternal.  Unfortunately, I cant's find any.

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Well the scripture you are trying so desperately hard to make say something other than what it does say tells you that the soul is eternal.
Verse 46 says these shall go away into everlasting punishment, try with all your might friend but that word means exactly what it seems to mean.

#50 Scanman

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Posted 25 January 2010 - 08:54 PM

Well the scripture you are trying so desperately hard to make say something other than what it does say tells you that the soul is eternal.
Verse 46 says these shall go away into everlasting punishment, try with all your might friend but that word means exactly what it seems to mean.

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Tot.

In what universe is 'everlasting' punishment justice?

God is our Father.

Even earthly judges know that this type of punishment does not fit the crime.

Look at the exquisiteness and detail and care that God put into his creation, and then tell me that he is so spiteful, that he would torment someone in a fiery hell for all of eternity, because that person was not convinced enough to worship him.

Destruction...yes, eternal damnation...no.

Ultimate reconciliation...I would hope that is so.

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#51 Seth

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Posted 25 January 2010 - 09:46 PM

Well the scripture you are trying so desperately hard to make say something other than what it does say tells you that the soul is eternal.
Verse 46 says these shall go away into everlasting punishment, try with all your might friend but that word means exactly what it seems to mean.

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If you read it within the context of the story, Jesus is simply telling us that there exists a punishment and that that punishment is eternal or everlasting. Nothing more and nothing less. He could have said eternal DEATH but Jesus was emphasizing that there indeed exists a punishment and unlike many punishments this one is permanent. It's like being a judge telling a murderer to depart from me to the electric chair. Everyone knows what that means, death. If the judge continues and says put them away into everlasting punishment, I don't think anyones going to be confused as to what he means when we all know what happens in the electric chair. The Bible already describes what happens to souls thrown into the lake of fire.

You can't just go and take one verse to try to make the MANY OTHER verses say what you think this verse implies. When ALL the verses are put together it's made clear what Jesus is saying here. So it would seem you may be desperately trying to take this one verse and make it say something different than what all the other verses in the Bible are saying concerning sinful souls that shall die.

It's not even consistent of what we know of God and His love for us and humanity. Why are we even insisting that God is going to torture unrepentant sinners forever and ever? Really, if the scriptures said this, whether I like it or not doesn't matter, I'd have to accept the truth of Biblical revelation that God will cause the eternal suffering of unrepentant sinners. But the scriptures do NOT say that. You can't just make those other verses go away.

#52 Ron

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Posted 26 January 2010 - 04:55 AM

This goes into another issue which is one we all, me included of course :blink:, run into and that is allowing our own "theology" or "preconceived ideas" get in the way of biblical revelation.

My own personal struggle was understanding God's Grace. For a very large part of my Christian life I always believed that God's 10 Commandments, EVEN AFTER receiving Jesus as my Savior and accepting His sacrifice on my behalf, should be strictly observed. Otherwise you could not expect God's goodness in your life.

God didn't abandon me in my error, however, but led me to other Christians who helped me see the truth clearly revealed in God's Word. Though it took me some time it finally hit me like a lightning bolt and I couldn't believe how far off I was. I was very ashamed for making God out to be this very Hard and almost Ruthless father who kept telling me how much He loved me.

This is the mindset that occurs when you think that keeping God's Commandments is what makes your relationship with Him intimate, it does not. It puts you in a spirit of condemnation and always focused on your own right doing as opposed to where the focus should really be on and that is on Jesus Christ and what He already had done. However when that revelation was made clear in my heart I rejoiced and praised God like crazy for His mercy. I knew God loved me and all people I just didn't realize just how much. And even to this day God's love continues to grow more profound.

God tells us to GROW in His Grace. 2 Peter 3:18 and we are also told to come into the UNITY of the faith. Ephesians 4:13.

You see I had a certain "Theology" or "Preconceived" idea of what Grace was and now it's so clear to me that it boggles my mind that I never seen it before. But there was no fighting scriptures that plainly said that it was HIS (Jesus Christs) righteousness, NOT mine, that was imputed to me. That FAITH in Jesus, not faith in the commandments is what Justified me, etc. The Bible was very clear and when looking into the verses that I "thought" were telling me that keeping God's 10 commandments made me right with God I realized they weren't really saying that. I had allowed my preconception to filter what the Word of God was clearly telling me. I decided that I will no longer allow any of what "I" think the bible says about any subject or doctrine stand in the way of clear Biblical revelation. However let's be clear on something. I broke that preconception through prayer, God's Holy Spirit and the help of other Christians.

I wanted to know the truth whether I liked it or not, whether I agreed with it or not. And if there was anything that I didn't understand for now, I'll keep it on a shelf until God reveals it to me further in some way. The point is working together as Christians in search of the truth, whether we agree on it or not so long as it's always done with love, we can help each other come to a more fuller understanding of God's revelation through His Word. I thank so very much those Christians who helped me. I hope that's what this all means.

It's unfortunate that an article like the one you linked spews out FEAR rather than LOVE. Jesus never drew the crowds to Him through FEAR. It was His love of man and His word of HOPE that drew them. This too should be our approach. Telling an unbeliever, in some threatening way, that if you don't accept Jesus now you will burn for eternity but by the way God loves you sends a very wrong message of that love. However, it is interesting to note that those that Jesus DID warn, were the religious establishment of His day. He criticized Pharisees, Saducees and the Chief Priests but you don't find Jesus giving warning to tax collectors, prostitutes etc. I am in NO WAY saying this as a comparison to other Christians. I am merely making an observation.

I prayerfully hope that what I highlighted above is not perceived as someone trying to "explain" something away but that those verses are re-examined to see if those things are so.

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Hello Seth,

My post was more of a counter to the pablum it rebutted. The point being that some people attempt to distance themselves from the scripture, with unsupported opinion outside the scripture, to keep from aligning themselves WITH the scripture.

I hope that makes sense.

#53 performedge

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Posted 26 January 2010 - 05:31 AM

Well the scripture you are trying so desperately hard to make say something other than what it does say tells you that the soul is eternal.
Verse 46 says these shall go away into everlasting punishment, try with all your might friend but that word means exactly what it seems to mean.

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That's OK totton, I was taught this for most of my life, so I don't condemn your position. It has very little to do with salvation.

However, honestly look at the passage and not your interpretation of the passages. If you are honest, the scripture clearly states that the punishment is eternal. To conclude the soul is eternal requires inductive reasoning which may be right or wrong. It certainly is not scriptural. I also showed you in the same passage and in context that the fire is eternal. And it is clear that the fire is the punishmnet.

Now you ignored Matt 10:28 wich says the soul can be killed/destroyed. This passage requires no inductive reasoning. It is clear scripture. This means that the soul is not eternal on its own. That's why we need the gift of eternal life.

You and I may diagree, but don't accuse me of reading into scripture what the scripture states emphatically and in context.

#54 the totton linnet

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Posted 26 January 2010 - 05:52 AM

That's OK totton, I was taught this for most of my life, so I don't condemn your position.  It has very little to do with salvation.

However, honestly look at the passage and not your interpretation of the passages.  If you are honest, the scripture clearly states that the punishment is eternal.  To conclude the soul is eternal requires inductive reasoning which may be right or wrong.  It certainly is not scriptural.  I also showed you in the same passage and in context that the fire is eternal.  And it is clear that the fire is the punishmnet.

Now you ignored Matt 10:28 wich says the soul can be killed/destroyed.  This passage requires no inductive reasoning.  It is clear scripture.  This means that the soul is not eternal on its own.  That's why we need the gift of eternal life.

You and I may diagree, but don't accuse me of reading into scripture what the scripture states emphatically and in context.

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*
You may have greater intellectual abilities than I have or you may not, you may have found better scholarship to interpret that passage than I have. I do not believe so.
How is the punishment eternal and those being punished not eternal? if those being punished ceased to exist so would the punishment. I certainly DO accuse you [and the scholars you follow] of deliberately putting a different interpretation upon the words of Jesus Christ than the meaning He intended, perhaps you are decieved into doing so.

You may believe that to be an unfriendly statement, I am sorry if you do. I see the same thing happening in a whole library load of christian theology, people trying to make scripture say what it doesn't say making the scriptures squeaze into their doctrine. I have to be on guard MYSELF constantly checking the VERY SAME tendency.

What I am arguing against is the mind of the flesh, whether yours or mine makes no difference, it stinks. But what stinks more is if the devil comes into and exploits it even more and what started out as a minor abberation becomes a major departure from the truth.

So don't take offence, if I have offended I am sorry, but I do not wish to offend the Lord. :blink:

#55 the totton linnet

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Posted 26 January 2010 - 06:44 AM

Tot.

In what universe is 'everlasting' punishment justice?

God is our Father.

Even earthly judges know that this type of punishment does not fit the crime.

Look at the exquisiteness and detail and care that God put into his creation, and then tell me that he is so spiteful, that he would torment someone in a fiery hell for all of eternity, because that person was not convinced enough to worship him.

Destruction...yes, eternal damnation...no.

Ultimate reconciliation...I would hope that is so.

Peace

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*
Hi Scan

First and foremost I reject passionately the term torture, the bible term is punishment.

Now we are getting down to some basic understandings here, for instance I abhor that my Father in heaven should be thought to be the same father of Hitler.
I see no warrant in scripture for saying that God loves all men.

In the parable of the wheat and tares the good man sowed good seed, it was the enemy who sowed tares among the wheat. Jesus looked at those who were seeking to slay Him and said "ye are of your father the devil and his works ye seek to do, he was a murderer from the beginning"

God makes it very clear that man is at emnity with Him, if emnity were a passive thing all would be well wouldn't it? if it were a thing hidden away only in the heart perhaps it would be tolerable, indeed it is hidden away in the heart, it seethes there like a simmering couldren of hate and malice because by a very great and varied means God keeps it under control.

But the moment it has the opportunity of expressing itself it boils over into a raging torrent of scolding hatred, this is what happens when evil men get into places of power. Just look at what they do.

Their whole endeavour is destroy God's creation, YOU make no mistake my friend they will want to destoy YOU. because you are created in the image of God.
God has set within society many means and ways of protecting you Scan from the sheer hate and malice of the devil and his co-workers, do not do foolishly and play into the devils hands by espousing and promoting false doctrines which seek to undermine and weaken the barriers that God has put up for your protection.

However imperfectly you may percieve those barriers to be manned and operated, instead seek to strengthen and uphold them by speaking the truth with regard to the nature of sin in the human heart and it's inevitable consequences.

That does not mean you have to become a hotten hell-fire preacher spitting out damnation to all near and far, God's word is just as powerful in sharing the good news of His love. But I would feel that I have not done my duty, nor have I truly loved if I neglect to warn and admonish every man.

One thing I am certain of, on that day God's justice and fairness will be utterly clear for all to see.

I was sharing with a bunch of bad lads from Scotland who were down in London to await trial at the Old Bailey, from Gasgow, they were hard young guys, I found out later what they were in custody for. The hostel that I was working in had a secure accomodation called a bail wing for people awaiting trial and these guys descended upon our bible group.

I was stressing the GOOD news, how that Jesus promised rivers of flowing waters flowing from our innermost being, this spake He of the spirit which is given to those who believe on Him. And guy piped up in his gutteral Glasgae "Hey Judy [if I had been a guy he would have said "Jimmy" :blink:] Ye believe the' book don't ya" I told him with all my heart I do, he said "then ye believe in hell" he looked somewhat surprised, I said that I did so believe.

The colour drained visibly from his face, [we all thought it was fury] white as ghost he went and he sprang up from his chair and stumbled out [we thought in a rage]
But he went to the hostel overseer who was christian and begged him to show him how to be saved.

He and his friends were awaiting trial for slashing peoples faces with razors, they would just walk up and slash the face and walk away, the victim would not know what had happened until their face fell apart.

Two of his gang were also converted through the change they saw in him.

#56 performedge

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Posted 26 January 2010 - 06:48 AM

It is a symbol of destruction. While the fire continues, what is destroyed does not.

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We agree on this. I would just add that this is imcompatible with universalism.

I believe that Sheol & Hades are the grave, and that Gehenna is a place of destruction.


You shouldn't limit Sheol and Hades to just being the grave. Any linguistict dictionary defines both words as having meanings that indicate an afterlife. The Hebrew language has a word for grave:

H6913
קברה קבר
qeber qibrâh
keh'-ber, kib-raw'
From H6912; a sepulchre: - burying place, grave, sepulchre.

This word is used many times in the Old Testament. Sheol has a broader meaning than just a hole in the earth where people are burried.

How can 'Hell' be thrown into 'Hell'?


Your parody indicates your lack of study. It is Death and Hades that are thrown into the Lake of Fire (Gehenna).

Most of the modern 'Hell's imagery comes from Dante's Inferno.


You totally ignored the scripture that clearly shows the correlation of the "unquenchable fire" of gehenna to the lake of fire in Rev.

Your Dante's inferno comments are a red herring suggesting your resistance to actually being confronted with scripture that refutes your position. I agree that the Roman Catholic Church distorted the teachings on "hell" to subvert the lay people even long before Dante. I agree that many of the churches today still follow these concepts.

Actually it is. The modern concept of 'Hell' is souls being tortured forever in a fiery abyss.


This concept is not totally incorrect. For Sheol and Hades are the places of the dead. Both Spiritually and physically. (beyond the grave).

Jesus gives an indication of this in the parable of Lazarus and the rich man. The rich man clearly lives beyond the grave. He clearly is in a place of torment. The place is Hades. Lazarus and Abraham are also living beyond the grave. The place of their existance is clearly a place of comfort.

Sheol - Hebrew for grave, hidden, abode of the dead
Hades - Septuagent translation of Sheol, which because of it's use, carried over greek concepts of the afterlife.


Notice how the definition of Sheol is broader than just the grave. These are your very own words.

Yes Hades is translation of Sheol. However, Sheol was first, and it had concepts of the afterlife also. The OT is not free of any concept of the afterlife. Even as far back Enoch. Every time that the phrase "the God of Abraham and Isaac" was used indicates the afterlife according to Jesus.

Ecc 12:5 Furthermore, men are afraid of a high place and of terrors on the road; the almond tree blossoms, the grasshopper drags himself along, and the caperberry is ineffective. For man goes to his eternal home while mourners go about in the street.
Ecc 12:6 Remember Him before the silver cord is broken and the golden bowl is crushed, the pitcher by the well is shattered and the wheel at the cistern is crushed;
Ecc 12:7 then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.

These concepts were long before pagan Babylon and the later greeks.

Actually the entymology of 'Hell' goes back to the germanic 'holle', to the proto germanic 'khaljo', to the Proto-Indo-European 'kel'...it is also where we get our word for 'hill' (i.e. burial mounds)


The fact still remains that "hell" is not just a greek pagan steal away.

I've been studying this for a very long time.

Here is an excellant article concerning Hell:
Questions about Hell link


It is clear you are studied. But I don't think in the scripture. You have read alot of things and you tend toward certain arguments. To me, I also read alot of things and then I test them against the scripture. If they survive the test I confirm the argument. If the don't, I discount the argument. I have found that there is some truth in most arguments. But some truth is in every lie. I try to gleen the truths and burn up the lies.

Here is an excerpt:
"If Hell is real how could the Apostle Paul (who was especially commissioned by God to preach the gospel to the nations) say that he had declared the entire counsel of God (Acts 20:27), when indeed he never warned of “Hell” in any of his letters? If Hell is real, wouldn’t Paul, of all people, warn of it repeatedly?"


Paul warned extensively about the wrath of God. We use the term salvation flippantly sometimes not even understanding what we are saved from. It certainly isn't sin, because we all sin after we are saved. We are saved from the very wrath of God which Paul talked about extensively in scripture and was part of his gospel.

Rom 5:9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.

That wrath is revealed (Revelation) in the last book of the Bible. It cllaed the great winepress of God.

Rev 14:10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

That wrath is revealed in many judgements, but the final judgement is the lake of fire for those under God's wrath. It will be their end.

#57 performedge

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Posted 26 January 2010 - 07:18 AM

*
You may have greater intellectual abilities than I have or you may not, you may have found better scholarship to interpret that passage than I have. I do not believe so.
How is the punishment eternal and those being punished not eternal? if those being punished ceased to exist so would the punishment. I certainly DO accuse you [and the scholars you follow] of deliberately putting a different interpretation upon the words of Jesus Christ than the meaning He intended, perhaps you are decieved into doing so.

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Wow!?!? :(

Let me summarize. I used Jesus exact words. Jesus said the fire was eternal. Do you agree? Jesus said the punishment was eternal. Do you agree?

I have inductively reasoned that the fire is the punishmnet. Do you agree? This is my only interpretation and it is logically clear from the passage. Is there any other source of punishment in this passage?

Jesus did not say anything about a soul being eternal. Do you agree? He did not teach this directly in this passage at all. You however have interpreted Jesus as saying that the soul was eternal from your own inductive logic that the person in the eternal punishment must also be eternal. Your doctrine is based solely on your logic, not Jesus words. I have already shown you how your logic is in error, because of the falacy of false dichotomy. If the fire is eternal and the fire is the punishment, then the person in the fire does not also have to be eternal. Your logic is the problem, not Jesus' words.

I'm dissapointed that you have accused me of "deliberately putting a different interpretation upon the words of Jesus Christ than the meaning He intended. But sometimes the pot does call the kettle black. :blink: :(

I think you honestly want to and are trying to follow God's Word. I pray that you will follow these words in the future. They are also Jesus' words
Mat 7:1 "Do not judge so that you will not be judged.
Mat 7:2 "For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you.

If you still disagree with me I will not accuse you of deliberately putting a different interpretation upon the words of Jesus Christ than the meaning He intended. You are my brother in Christ. Me and my earthly brother diasgreed alot, but I still would have died for him given the opportunity.

#58 Seth

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Posted 26 January 2010 - 07:54 AM

How is the punishment eternal and those being punished not eternal? if those being punished ceased to exist so would the punishment. I certainly DO accuse you [and the scholars you follow] of deliberately putting a different interpretation upon the words of Jesus Christ than the meaning He intended, perhaps you are decieved into doing so.

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I'll let the Bible answer that question.
Matt.25:41
"Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared FOR THE DEVIL and his ANGELS:

Hint: (Notice it was prepared for the devil and his angels (immortal angels who cannot die). This punishment wasn't made for sinners, although God makes it clear that He uses this everlasting fire to burn them up. The point is that it wasn't made for MORTAL sinners but rather made for IMMORTAL fallen angels. That's why the fire is everlasting.)

#59 performedge

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Posted 26 January 2010 - 08:09 AM

I'll let the Bible answer that question.
Matt.25:41
"Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared FOR THE DEVIL and his ANGELS:

Hint: (Notice it was prepared for the devil and his angels (immortal angels who cannot die). This punishment wasn't made for sinners, although God makes it clear that He uses this everlasting fire to burn them up. The point is that it wasn't made for MORTAL sinners but rather made for IMMORTAL fallen angels. That's why the fire is everlasting.)

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Excellent answer also Seth. Thanks

#60 Seth

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Posted 26 January 2010 - 08:26 AM

Hello Seth,

My post was more of a counter to the pablum it rebutted. The point being that some people attempt to distance themselves from the scripture, with unsupported opinion outside the scripture, to keep from aligning themselves WITH the scripture.

I hope that makes sense.

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Hi Ron,

Yeah I did see where you were coming from Ron. My response was agreeing with your shock :o It may not have come out that way.

We've all approached God's Word with many preconceived ideas and sometimes those ideas come from outside sources and not from direct Biblical revelation, whether we realize it or not. Sometimes it's a mixture of the two, which is Satan's approach to many things, to mix some truth with some error.

I think it's right for Tot to be careful and guard his heart and mind. We all should, that's why I suggest that Christians look these things up prayerfully in the Word of God themselves, to see if these things are so. For it is God's WORD that will guard us. And so we have to ask ourselves, where did I get the idea that souls that reject Christ will burn in hell FOREVER? Is it from the Bible or is there some other source in play here that I may not even be aware of? Perhaps a misunderstanding of a passage or verse, initially believing it said something when in reality it says something else. However, to receive revelation REQUIRES prayer. Get God involved in that process otherwise we may allow our OWN or OTHER'S interpretations and even Satan to get in the way of seeing the truth. I certainly do not have all revelation or all truth! But notice what Jesus tells Peter in Matt. 16:17

Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for FLESH and BLOOD has NOT revealed this to you, BUT My FATHER who is in heaven.

That is why we have God's Holy Spirit which will GUIDE us into ALL Truth. Mere man, including myself and yourself, can't do this. God needs to reveal these things to us THROUGH HIS WORD. The truths we DO have were given to us by God the Father, I don't know if many Christians understand that. They may think THEY came to see these truths for themselves or perhaps their SMARTS made them see it or it was just Obvious. No it WASN'T Obvious, God revealed that to you. He opened your mind to receive it. However we still have the choice to BELIEVE what He is showing us. Some may reject it even though it's NOW made "obvious" to them. In either case, God won't reject you (not you specifically Ron :) ). He didn't reject me all those many years I was in error about Grace. God is faithful.




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