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Is Hell Eternal?


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#21 Arch

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Posted 09 June 2009 - 07:14 PM

This question has been answered many times over, and yet the atheist attempts to regurgitate this misconception at every turn. It’s only a “fairly common question” for those who want to dwell on its scriptural misinterpretation (intentionally or unintentionally).

So, if you could, please provide the scripture that says “God forgives everyone”, we can move on form there.  :rolleyes:

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Aha, quite interesting Ron. I've found some passages that say God's forgiveness is for everyone, however it always comes with some extras, usually along the lines of 'God forgives everyone as long as they repent'.

An interesting point I was not aware of.

Regards,

Arch.

#22 Arch

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Posted 09 June 2009 - 07:32 PM

Suppose God has created an unique creature, capable of playing all sorts of songs, and much more. Capable of composing new songs, writing poems, painting, dancing, and even inventing entirely new artforms. What is then justice for one who screws things up so God is forever without His rightful due? Now add in God's infinite love, and His right to be loved in return by the creature. If anyone is so smart, they can add intention also. And if they're that smart, they'll know who the creature is by now.

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This is rather profound. Well said CTD.

#23 Arch

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Posted 09 June 2009 - 08:10 PM

I think this is getting a little off topic and I'd rather not steal Teo's forum, but there's a couple of interesting points I'd like to address.

3) If sin exists in Heaven, and is the root of all evil. Why would you want to go to a place that would be no different from where you currently are?

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I have to be honest ikester, I quite like it here, despite all the bad things. If heaven still had sin it would be just like here but with a better view. I wouldn't be too disappointed.

I don't know about you, but to endure this place with all it's evil and thn go to a place that I will live eternally in the same situation. Is not very appealing. So to make it better, would it not make sense to have a more perfect place to go, where all your worries are no more?

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Again, I don't find the idea too terrible. You see I actually find the idea of eternal peace quite dull. I thrive on challenges and difficulties. I enjoy debate. To take all those things away forever doesn't sound too appealing. There would have to be a really awesome replacement for me to enjoy myself.

It's an eternal vacation from sin and the temptation of it. No addictions, no temptations, no worries of messing up. Just life as it has never been experienced before. Now does that not sound like a place you would rather go? Or does one with sin, temptation, and no differet from here sound better?

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Without having experienced the former it's hard to be sure, but a life without challenges doesn't sound appealing :rolleyes:

You see the Bible says these are temptations. And temptations require a tempter. So sin is basically a temtation brought on by the tempter (Satan). This was illustrated in the garden as it took Satan (snake) to tempt Eve to sin. Do you think Eve wanted to disobey God? Of course not.

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Question, before the snake tempted Eve there was no such thing as sin correct? (Hence the title, 'original sin'). The garden of Eden was meant to be a perfect paradise. Why then did God let Satan enter? Couldn't He have locked Satan out?

Example: If you ended up in eternity and did not know you were not supposed to sin. How long would you last?

This is what will make Heaven different from earth. The tempter won't be there. Understand? We won't be tempted to sin.

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These two statements seem to contradict each other. In eternity can one sin? Is it possible to do, it's just that without Satan the temptation to do so is removed? Or is it a complete impossibility?

Thanks for the insight. It's interesting trying to wrap your head around these beliefs.

Regards,

Arch.

#24 Bex

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Posted 09 June 2009 - 09:18 PM

Arch,Jun 10 2009, 04:10 PM]
I think this is getting a little off topic and I'd rather not steal Teo's forum, but there's a couple of interesting points I'd like to address.
I have to be honest ikester, I quite like it here, despite all the bad things. If heaven still had sin it would be just like here but with a better view. I wouldn't be too disappointed.


So you wouldn't mind Heaven having sin? Let's consider sin Arch and its effects - Rape, murder, child molestation, exploitation, drug/alcohol abuse, theft, maiming/mugging, deliberate animal cruelty, torture, divorce/adultery, lies etc and all the rest. Not only does sin destroy the soul, but it leaves many victims behind and tragedy. Sin has its roots in evil. Evil intentions can lead to horrific acts. Which is why Jesus warns against the sins of the mind/heart. A sinful act, is proceded by a sinful thought/intention. So even "little sins" to us are a big deal to God. For they take root in the heart and lead a soul further from God. There is nothing worse than spiritual blindness. No worse sickness than the sickness of the soul.

Heaven would not be Heaven if sin was acceptable there. I'm so glad God does not think as men think! And that's why there is a Hell. Hell is a place where those who love sin and/or reject God reside. The wages of sin is death, and the consequences of sin without repentence is eternal separation from God. Nothing defiled can enter Heaven! Praise God that that oneday sin and those who love and persist in sin without repentence will be removed from continuing to corrupt and destroy others. There will come a day where the earth itself will be renewed, but until that day, all of creation awaits under the weight of sin.

Try and imagine the happiest time in your life and magnify it and I still don't really think any of us can conceive what God has prepared for those who love Him.

Our time on earth is a journey and also a testing time. But the reward for endurance and faith make even the worst life worthwhile to endure to get there! You may enjoy your earthly life Arch, but it's still nothing compared to Heaven and it's not going to go on forever. So even if one is attached to their life? They will still lose it. There are also plenty of people who do not enjoy their lives and are suffering horrifically that would happily welcome death to release them. What a wonderful hope awaits in Heaven for those who endure to the end, even the most extreme suffering.

Even a life full of luxury/riches and pleasure comes to nothing compared the true joy and peace of Heaven. But sadly, those that cherish such, will find they amount to nothing. Better not to attach oneself to that which is temporary, but rather focus on that which is eternal and lasting, which can only be given from the eternal God Himself.

Again, I don't find the idea too terrible. You see I actually find the idea of eternal peace quite dull. I thrive on challenges and difficulties. I enjoy debate. To take all those things away forever doesn't sound too appealing. There would have to be a really awesome replacement for me to enjoy myself.


Heaven could not possibly be dull, or it would not be Heaven. Heaven easily surpasses the greatest things on earth. Do you really imagine that God would reside in a boring place and instead create an exciting earth instead? One can only try and imagine what Heaven must be like, if earth pales in comparison. And indeed it must!

Heaven reflects our Creator! Try and imagine all the wonders and gifts on earth and multiply it many times and I still don't think you'd come close to Heaven. So how on earth can Heaven be dull in anyway shape or form? Hehe, on the contrary. So much so, that the bible tells us, that it hath not even entered the mind of man what God has prepared for those who love Him! Unimaginable wonders await those that are steadfast in faith.

Without having experienced the former it's hard to be sure, but a life without challenges doesn't sound appealing


No, because that is really all we are used to. I think you'll find it quite a challenge to attempt to wrap your mind around eternity and all the things that come with it :lol: Let alone the Creator Himself. We haven't even discovered everything about our own earth yet, mysteries remain. Heaven goes above and beyond all that. Nothing can possibly prepare anybody for the glory of God's dwelling place and indeed Himself. Do you think eternity would be enough to discover all the wonders of an eternal God?

Question, before the snake tempted Eve there was no such thing as sin correct? (Hence the title, 'original sin'). The garden of Eden was meant to be a perfect paradise. Why then did God let Satan enter? Couldn't He have locked Satan out?


Now now Arch, what's wrong with a challenge? So your idea of a perfect paradise is one without a challenge then? Come on now! :lol:

God gave them an earthly paraside to enjoy, but also gave them a test of love and obedience. Just ONE tree they were to not eat from. This is amongst all the other trees that they could eat from in abundence. But pride entered Eve through the temptation of Satan. She failed the test of obedience because she listened to the wrong voice, even though the good Creator had given her and Adam a paradise, she still caved in through pride/vanity. Adam unfortunately caved into Eve. I suppose women have that affect on men B)

But seriously though, BOTH of them knew better and could (should) have resisted Satan. They didn't.

Jesus Himself gave us the perfect example of resisting Satan, when Satan tempted Him at His most vulnerable in the desert fasting. There are plenty of people throughout history who show us that even in a fallen world that Adam and Eve brought upon us all, that we can all, with the grace of God, resist falling through temptation! We all get tempted yes, but God has given us the strength to resist.

Remember, even a third of the angels fell through pride! One third fell away from God and followed Lucifer, the rest remained faithful to God. Though all were given the choice to follow Lucifer or remain with God.

Most creatures have been tested Arch. The angels were not exempt from it either. Those that passed the test, were the ones that remained steadfast and loyal to God even though they each may have been tempted. The reward for such is great. God does not go on testing and testing and testing for eternity. There comes a time when such testing reaps it's reward and wow what a reward!

So many invest in their future on earth, yet it will all come to an end. How many invest in that which is lasting?

#25 Ron

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Posted 10 June 2009 - 02:34 AM

Aha, quite interesting Ron. I've found some passages that say God's forgiveness is for everyone, however it always comes with some extras, usually along the lines of 'God forgives everyone as long as they repent'.

An interesting point I was not aware of.

Regards,

Arch.

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That is correct Arch, and that’s why you cannot take these things out of context (or cherry pick your favorite portion) to make a point. God's forgiveness IS for everyone, BUT it doesn’t come without actions on the part of the forgiven.

For example:

“if My people, who are called by My name, shall humble themselves and pray, and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from Heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land”. - 2Ch 7:14


Here, God said He will forgive. But, that forgiveness requires the forgiven to give up their sin and come before Him with a contrite heart (truly seeking forgiveness).

#26 Seth

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Posted 23 January 2010 - 06:49 PM

"Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand" Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was thirsty and you gave me not to drink. I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you covered me not: sick and in prison, and you did not visit me. Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to thee? Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me". (Matt. 25:41-45)


The FIRE is everlasting. Prepared for the Devil and his angels (who cannot die and therefore require that the fire they are in is everlasting as well.

[b]"If any man shall adore the beast, he shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mingled with pure wine in the cup of His wrath, and shall be tormented with fire and brimestone. And the smoke of their torments shall ascend up forever and ever"(Apoc. xiv. 10). .[/b]
Sorry I'm not familiar with "Apoc"

[b]"the unbelieving and the abominable, murderers, whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars shall have their [color=purple]portion[/color] in the pool burning with fire and brimestone, which is the second [color=purple]DEATH[/color]" Revelation 21:8[/b]

Notice it's a Second DEATH. Not a Second LIFE spent in eternal suffering. The verse says DEATH.

[b]"Bind his hands and feet and cast him into [color=purple]exterior darkness[/color], where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. For many are called, but few are chosen".[/b] [b](Matt. 22:13-14)[/b].

[b]"The unprofitable servant case yet out into the [color=purple]exterior darkness[/color]. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth[/b]"[b] (Matt. 25:30).[/b]

[b]"The son of man shall send his angels and they shall gather out of his kingdom all scandals, and them that work iniquity: "And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be [color=purple]weeping and gnashing of teeth[/color]".(Matt. 13:41-42).[/b]

[b]"Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit, shall be cut down, and shall be cast into the fire. (Matt. 7:19).[/b]

[b]"I am the vine; you the branches; he that abideth in me, and I in him, the same beareth much fruit" for without me you can do nothing. "If any one abide not in me, he shall be cast forth as a branch, and shall wither, and they shall gather him up, and cast him into the fire, and he [color=purple]burneth[/color]" (John 15:5, 6).[/b]

Doesn't say anything about sinners suffering FOREVER, though there WILL be weeping and gnashing of teeth and notice it says they Burneth or Burned (past tense) NOT Burning. But yes, Hell Fire is REAL.

[b]"And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet, who wrought signs before him, wherewith he seduced them who received the character of the beast, and who adored his image. These [color=purple]two[/color] were cast alive into the pool of fire, burning with brimestone" (Apoc. 19:20) where they were tormented day and night, for ever and ever.

It mentions TWO were cast alive. (though I am not familiar with Apoc. although it's clearly a verse from Revelations 19:20) The portion of being "tormented day and night for ever and ever is found in Revelations 20:10 and refers to the Devil and the TWO (the beast and the false prophet). Nothing about sinners, at least not in this verse.

"And whosoever was not found written in the book of life, was cast into the pool of fire" (Apoc. 20:15).[/b]

[b]"And if the just man shall scarely be saved, where shall the ungodly and sinner appear?"(1 Peter 4:18).[/b]

[b]They shall be tormented with fire and brimestone and the smoke of their torments will ascend up forever and ever. Neither have they rest day or night".Revelation 14:11[/b]

Let's get back to Rev.14:11 a bit later.

[b]"Everyone that doeth evil hateth the light, and cometh not to the light, that his works may not be reproved" John 3:20. [/b]

[b]"I will bring an everlasting approach upon you, and a perpetual shame which shall never be forgotten". [B](Jer. xxiii. 40).[/b][/B]

[b]"If thy hand scandalize thee, cut it off; it is better for thee to enter into life, maimed, than, having two hands, to go into hell, into the [color=purple]fire that cannot be quenched[/color] where their worm dieth not, and the [color=purple]fire is not extinguished[/color]. And if they foot scandalize thee, cut it off, it is better for thee to enter lame into life, than, having two feet, to be cast into the hell of [color=purple]unquenchable fire[/color], where their worm dieth not and the [color=purple]fire is not extinguished[/color]. And if thy eye scandalize thee, pluck it out; it is better for thee with one eye to enter the kingdom of God, than having two eyes, to be cast into the hell of fire, where their worm dieth not, and the [color=purple]fire is not extinguished[/color]". (Matt. 18:7-9; compare 5:29-30).[/b]

Notice the FIRE is not extinguished or the FIRE is unquenchable. It doesn't say that those who are thrown in it are.

[b]"The nourishment thereof is fire and much wood: the breath of the Lord as a torrent of brimstone kindling it." (Isaias 30: 33) [/b]
[b]"The wicked shall see, and be angry, he shall gnash with his teeth, and pine away. . . " (Psalms 111: 10)[/b]
[b]"We fools esteemed their life madness, and their end without honour. Behold, how they are numbered among the children of God, and their lot is among the saints. Therefore we have erred from the way of truth, and the light of justice hath not shined unto us, and the sun of understanding hath not risen upon us." (Wisdom 5:4-6) "We wearied ourselves in the way of iniquity and destruction, and have walked through hard ways, but the way of the Lord we have not known. What hath pride profited us ? or what advantage hath the boasting of riches brought us ? All those things are passed away like a shadow." (Wisdom 5: 7-9) [/b]

Not familiar with the book of "Wisdom".

[b]"And fear ye not them that kill the body, and are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him that can [color=purple]destroy[/color] both soul and body in hell". (Matt. 10.28).

Notice Christ says fear him that "can DESTROY BOTH SOUL AND BODY IN HELL." It doesn't say can Punish, Torment, etc. Christ says DESTROY. Destroy where? In Hell.

"He will give fire, and worms into their flesh, and they may burn and may feel forever." (Judith 16: 21) [/b]

Not familiar with Judith. Are these the Apocryphal books?

"A land of misery and darkness, where the shadow of death, and no order, but everlasting horror dwelleth." (Job 10: 22)


My translation (New King James) says it differently.
22 A land as dark as darkness itself, As the shadow of death, whithout any order, Where even the light is like darkness.

"These shall go into everlasting punishment." (Matthew 25: 46)


Notice its PUNISHMENT, not punishING.

[b]"There was a certain rich man, who was clothed in purple and fine linen; and feasted sumptuously every day. And there was a certain beggar, named Lazarus, who lay at his gate, full of sores. Desiring to be filled with the crumbs that fell from the rich man's table, and no one did give him' moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom. and the rich man also died" and he was buried in hell. "And lifting up his eyes when he was in torments, he saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried, and said, "Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water to cool my tongue: for I am tormented in this flame". And Abraham said to him: Son, remember that thou didst receive good things in thy lifetime, and likewise Lazarus evil things, but now he is comforted; and thou art tormented. And besides all this, between us and you, there is a great gulf has been fixed, to prevent those who want to cross from our side to yours or from your side to ours". So he said "Father, I beg you then to send Lazarus to my father's house. Since I have five brothers, to give them warning so that they do not come to this place of torment too." Abraham said, "They have Moses and the prophets, let them listen to them". The rich man replied, "Ah no, father Abraham, but if someone comes to them from the dead, they will repent". Then Abraham said to him, "if they will not listen either to Moses or to the prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone should rise from the dead". (Luke 16:19-31).[/b]

Get to this later.

[b]"It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God" (Heb. 10:31)[/b]
[b]"which of you can dwell with [color=purple]devouring [/color]fire"? (Is. 33:14).[/b]

Notice its DEVOURING. A fire that Destroys.

"Unless the Lord had been my helper, my soul had almost dwelt in Hell"

This "Hell" is referring to the grave.

"What doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul" Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?" (Matt. 16:26).


LOSS of soul. You can LOSE your soul.

"Wonder not at this; for the hour cometh, wherein all that are in the graves shall hear the voice of the Son of God. And they that have done good things shall come forth to the resurrection of life; but they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of judgement" (John. 5:28, 29).


Judgement NOT Condemnation. We were judged as well from God's Word, the Bible, the Books and were found guilty. But we received Jesus as our Savior.

"This is how it will be at the end of time: the angels will appear and separate the wicked from the upright, to throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and grinding of teeth (Matt. 13:49).


The weeping and grinding (gnashing) of teeth, in this verse and the verses before it, describe the REACTION of those thrown into the fire but this is a far cry from saying that they will suffer eternaly. These verses do not say that or least of all do not make it clear that those weeping and gnashing their teeth will be doing so forever.

"These seeing it, shall be troubled with terrible fear and shall be amazed at the suddeness of the unexpected salvation of the just' saying within themselves, reptenting and groaning for anguish of spirit: These are they whom we had sometime in derision, and for a prable of reproach. We fools esteemed their life madness and their end without honor. Behold, now they are numbered among the children of God, and their lot is among the saints" (Wisd. 5: 2-5)


Sorry, I don't recognize this book of "Wisdom".

"Understand these things, you that forget God; lest He snatch you away and there be none to deliver you". (Ps. xlix. 22).
"Wherefore, my dearly beloved...with fear and trembling work out your salvation" (Phil. 2:12).


Purple Bold Emphasis mine:

There is NO question that Hell exists and is how God will deal with unrepentant sinners. God's word also clearly shows that the Devil and his angels and the Beast and the False Propehet will be tormented day and night forever and ever however there is no mention of sinners suffering that same fate.

The Bible shows that unrepentant sinners will be DESTROYED in Hell (Not alive forever in torment). The Second DEATH (Not live forever in torment). They will LOSE their soul. (Not keep it forever in torment)

The Bible shows that Hell was made for the Devil and his angels who happen to be eternal spirits. Therefore the fire they are in must also be eternal. But it was made for them NOT sinners. Though the fire is eternal it doesn't mean that those (sinners) in the fire will be as well. Those (sinners) thrown in may suffer for a time weeping and gnashing of teeth but they will be destroyed, burneth (or burned), dead forever.

I realize this sounds perhaps heretical but pay close attention to those verses again. God doesn't waste words, He obviously knows exactly what He's saying.

Think about this. How do we reconcile the reality of God's love for us and others, the love of God that we speak about to others and tell them that if they don't repent this loving God will have you suffer forever and ever in torment? Believe me, I am not trying to lessen sin or trying to "fit" God into my view of what "I" think a loving God should be. In fact, I think we all too often don't realize how much God really does love all humanity. I once believed the same about sinners suffering forever but after viewing these same verses again it all becomes clear that that is NOT God's way. The soul that sins, it shall DIE. Ezekiel 18:4,20. So before my brothers and sisters in Christ start throwing tomatoes my way, B) all I am saying is to re-look at those verses prayerfully and let the Holy Spirit confirm the word to you.

Edit by ikester7579: To fix quote boxes. Anytime you quote over 10 boxes in one post, you have to use code boxes for all the ones over 10 or the boxes won't work. Or you can split the post. The forum program does not have an option to change this so we "all" have to abide by this forum program rule

#27 Seth

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Posted 24 January 2010 - 09:06 AM

My apologies Ikester and thank you for the fix.

I said I'd get back to Revelations 14:11 where it says,
"And the SMOKE of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

"And the SMOKE of their torment ascends forever and ever;..."
but then continues in the same verse talking about those "who worship the beast and his image and who receive the mark of his name who will have no rest day or night." I believe they will have no rest because at the "time" of their worship they will have no rest day or night.

Why do I believe that?

Because it says in Psalms 37:20
But the wicked shall PERISH; And the enemies of the Lord, Like the splendor of the meadows, shall VANISH AWAY.

And in Malachi 4:1 says
"For behold, the day is coming, Burning like an oven, And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall BURN THEM UP," Says the Lord of hosts, "That will leave them NEITHER root nor branch.

They are COMPLETELY burned up (neither root nor branch will be left).

Now concerning the Beast and the False Prophet. (I didn't want to bring this up in the last post as it was already getting too long) However, I believe they too shall be completely destroyed in the lake of fire and not burning or suffering forever. Why do I believe that? Well for one they are not eternal beings and based on the other verses that show plainly that the soul can and will be DESTROYED in Hell.

Also the verse used to support the idea that they (beast and false prophet) suffer forever can have a few translations that can change the meaning because In Revelation 20:10 There is a word used that is in italics meaning it wasn't in the original text but the translaters added for clarification.

NKJ verse 10 The devil, who deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet "are".

NIV verse 10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet "had been thown."

TNEB verse 10 and the Devil, their seducer, was flung into the lake of fire and sulphur, where the beast and the false prophet "had been flung,"

Emphasis mine:

The point is that in each of these translations (and others) that last part I quoted is translated differently. The "are" could just as easily be translated "were" in the NKJ, since in the other two translations this portion is in the PAST TENSE.

This would be consistent with the rest of scripture so that the devil and his demons are thrown into hell where the beast and false prophet WERE also thrown before or earlier who by the time when the devil and his demons were thrown in were themselves already destroyed.

So while Hell (made for the devil and his demons) is Eternal only the devil and his demons will suffer eternally not sinners (those who reject the sacrifice of Christ). Those sinners shall perish and be destoyed in hell because the soul can be destroyed but those eternal beings (the devil and his demons) cannot and as such require a fire just as eternal as they are.

#28 performedge

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Posted 24 January 2010 - 12:04 PM

Seth brings up some interesting comments. I don't like to argue with my brothers and sisters in Christ, and I really don't like to see us accuse each other as "liberal", just because we have a different understanding on a particlar subject.

One subject that I think we all agree on is that salvation is a gift from God, and ultimately that gift is eternal life. We receive the gift of eternal life.

Now I just want us to think just a little. Why do we need to receive eternal life, if we already posses it and we are going to spend it either in heaven or hell?

In other words, are we eternal beings (our souls) or are we not eternal beings (our souls) and the eternality must comes as a gift from God? <_<

#29 the totton linnet

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Posted 24 January 2010 - 05:49 PM

Matt.25:46
Then these shall go away into everlasting punishment but the righteous into life eternal.

#30 Seth

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Posted 24 January 2010 - 07:24 PM

You bring up another important issue Performedge that the Bible makes clear as well. There is NO immortal soul. Again, this may sound heretical but it is not.

If you search the scriptures you'll find nowhere in the Bible the phrase "immortal soul". You won't even find the soul referred to as immortal except when in connection with born again Christians, who will PUT ON IMMORTALITY. Immortality is a GIFT, given only to those who have received Christ and therefore made righteous through His blood.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is DEATH, BUT the GIFT of God is ETERNAL LIFE in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Again, DEATH is the wage NOT ETERNAL SUFFERING in Hell. BUT (the Contrary), the GIFT of God is ETERNAL LIFE in Christ Jesus our Lord.

It's all consistent. I just encourage anyone to take another look at these verses prayerfully and let God's Word reveal these truths to you not a mere man, like me. :)

#31 Scanman

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Posted 24 January 2010 - 08:13 PM

You bring up another important issue Performedge that the Bible makes clear as well. There is NO immortal soul. Again, this may sound heretical but it is not.

If you search the scriptures you'll find nowhere in the Bible the phrase "immortal soul". You won't even find the soul referred to as immortal except when in connection with born again Christians, who will PUT ON IMMORTALITY. Immortality is a GIFT, given only to those who have received Christ and therefore made righteous through His blood.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is DEATH, BUT the GIFT of God is ETERNAL LIFE in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Again, DEATH is the wage NOT ETERNAL SUFFERING in Hell. BUT (the Contrary), the GIFT of God is ETERNAL LIFE in Christ Jesus our Lord.

It's all consistent. I just encourage anyone to take another look at these verses prayerfully and let God's Word reveal these truths to you not a mere man, like me. :)

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It is good to see that I am not alone.

Great article about the fallacy of an 'eternal' hell:
Questions about Hell link

Peace

#32 performedge

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Posted 25 January 2010 - 05:35 AM

So while Hell (made for the devil and his demons) is Eternal only the devil and his demons will suffer eternally not sinners (those who reject the sacrifice of Christ). Those sinners shall perish and be destoyed in hell because the soul can be destroyed but those eternal beings (the devil and his demons) cannot and as such require a fire just as eternal as they are.

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Just curious, how do you arrive at the conclusion that satan and his demons are eternal beings?

#33 Seth

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Posted 25 January 2010 - 08:05 AM

Just curious, how do you arrive at the conclusion that satan and his demons are eternal beings?

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I see what you're saying Performedge. The word should probably be Immortal not Eternal, since Eternal is used mostly in referrence to things that have had no beginning, which satan obviously did have. I meant eternal as in to continue or be immortal. Thanks for the correction.

However if that's not what you're getting at and rather asking why I believe or where can we find in the Bible that the devil is immortal or does not die, we can look at one passage in Luke 20:36 where Jesus tells us,

"nor can they die anymore, for they are EQUAL to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection."

Angels cannot die and satan is an angel (a fallen one), in fact an archangel, and therefore immortal.

#34 the totton linnet

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Posted 25 January 2010 - 08:54 AM

You bring up another important issue Performedge that the Bible makes clear as well. There is NO immortal soul. Again, this may sound heretical but it is not.

If you search the scriptures you'll find nowhere in the Bible the phrase "immortal soul". You won't even find the soul referred to as immortal except when in connection with born again Christians, who will PUT ON IMMORTALITY. Immortality is a GIFT, given only to those who have received Christ and therefore made righteous through His blood.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is DEATH, BUT the GIFT of God is ETERNAL LIFE in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Again, DEATH is the wage NOT ETERNAL SUFFERING in Hell. BUT (the Contrary), the GIFT of God is ETERNAL LIFE in Christ Jesus our Lord.

It's all consistent. I just encourage anyone to take another look at these verses prayerfully and let God's Word reveal these truths to you not a mere man, like me. :huh:

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*
Man is created a living soul, his soul will not die. Paul when speaking of what is mortal putting on immortality is speaking about the body which does die but which will be changed in the twink of an eye.

Man is dead spiritually because of sin, new spiritual life is imparted when we are born again. This is the gift of God even eternal life.

But death, soul death is an abiding state also.

#35 performedge

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Posted 25 January 2010 - 09:54 AM

*
Man is created a living soul, his soul will not die. Paul when speaking of what is mortal putting on immortality is speaking about the body which does die but which will be changed in the twink of an eye.

Man is dead spiritually because of sin, new spiritual life is imparted when we are born again. This is the gift of God even eternal life.
But death, soul death is an abiding state also.

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"For God so loved the world that he gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have life everlasting life"

Over and over again the scripture talks about souls perishing. What scripturally makes you think that souls don't perish, die, or cease to exist?

In your first sentence you said we already have eternal life via our natural birth. Why do we need this gift from God then? You say our soul is spiritually dead. First that's redundant. Second it is contradictory. If our soul can die (spiritually) then you contradict your first sentence where you say man's soul will not die.

#36 Seth

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Posted 25 January 2010 - 10:27 AM

It is good to see that I am not alone.

Great article about the fallacy of an 'eternal' hell:
Questions about Hell link

Peace

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As in all too many things there is a tendancy to have the pendulum swing too far on either side when one side realizes how far right or left they really are.

I think the article you noted takes the other extreme and moves the pendulum too far the other way. Whether it was translated Hell for Gehenna or not, the POINT is that there IS a punishment.

Also the Bible doesn't always refer to "Hell" as "Hell" but uses other terminology like, "the lake of fire", or "fire and brimstone" and phrases like "Burned" or "Burned Up", etc. So whatever point the article is trying to make for the translation of Gehenna per se is missing the point that a ) there IS a punishMENT and b ) it's described using terms like FIRE, BURNING, BRIMSTONE, SMOKE etc.

The article seems stuck on the idea of "Hell" being real and, whether they realize it or not, adopting the same idea that "Hell" means Eternal Suffering for unbelievers. First of all, it does not mean that, as I've tried to highlight in the verses used above. But even the article makes that same assumption that it does mean that because it says in it's last paragraph.

"If there is a Hell and according to most denominations of Christianity the majority of mankind will go there, could you really enjoy heaven knowing your mother or father or children or best friend are suffering everlasting tortures the likes of which would make the Holocaust seem like a picnic?"

Emphasis mine.

No I can't imagine anyone enjoying heaven with their loved one being tormented forever, That is IF that was indeed what was going to happen.

So whether the article wants to call it "Hell" or not, the "lake of fire" IS REAL as revealed in scripture. However what is NOT revealed in scripture are sinners who will suffer there for eternity.

#37 Ron

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Posted 25 January 2010 - 10:41 AM

More links about someone’s opinions on hell:

Truth about Hell link
:huh:

What does it all mean? If we don't like something in the Bible, we can explain it away?
Any thoughts?

#38 Seth

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Posted 25 January 2010 - 12:19 PM

More links about someone’s opinions on hell:

Truth about Hell link
  :huh:

What does it all mean? If we don't like something in the Bible, we can explain it away?
Any thoughts?

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This goes into another issue which is one we all, me included of course :lol:, run into and that is allowing our own "theology" or "preconceived ideas" get in the way of biblical revelation.

My own personal struggle was understanding God's Grace. For a very large part of my Christian life I always believed that God's 10 Commandments, EVEN AFTER receiving Jesus as my Savior and accepting His sacrifice on my behalf, should be strictly observed. Otherwise you could not expect God's goodness in your life.

God didn't abandon me in my error, however, but led me to other Christians who helped me see the truth clearly revealed in God's Word. Though it took me some time it finally hit me like a lightning bolt and I couldn't believe how far off I was. I was very ashamed for making God out to be this very Hard and almost Ruthless father who kept telling me how much He loved me.

This is the mindset that occurs when you think that keeping God's Commandments is what makes your relationship with Him intimate, it does not. It puts you in a spirit of condemnation and always focused on your own right doing as opposed to where the focus should really be on and that is on Jesus Christ and what He already had done. However when that revelation was made clear in my heart I rejoiced and praised God like crazy for His mercy. I knew God loved me and all people I just didn't realize just how much. And even to this day God's love continues to grow more profound.

God tells us to GROW in His Grace. 2 Peter 3:18 and we are also told to come into the UNITY of the faith. Ephesians 4:13.

You see I had a certain "Theology" or "Preconceived" idea of what Grace was and now it's so clear to me that it boggles my mind that I never seen it before. But there was no fighting scriptures that plainly said that it was HIS (Jesus Christs) righteousness, NOT mine, that was imputed to me. That FAITH in Jesus, not faith in the commandments is what Justified me, etc. The Bible was very clear and when looking into the verses that I "thought" were telling me that keeping God's 10 commandments made me right with God I realized they weren't really saying that. I had allowed my preconception to filter what the Word of God was clearly telling me. I decided that I will no longer allow any of what "I" think the bible says about any subject or doctrine stand in the way of clear Biblical revelation. However let's be clear on something. I broke that preconception through prayer, God's Holy Spirit and the help of other Christians.

I wanted to know the truth whether I liked it or not, whether I agreed with it or not. And if there was anything that I didn't understand for now, I'll keep it on a shelf until God reveals it to me further in some way. The point is working together as Christians in search of the truth, whether we agree on it or not so long as it's always done with love, we can help each other come to a more fuller understanding of God's revelation through His Word. I thank so very much those Christians who helped me. I hope that's what this all means.

It's unfortunate that an article like the one you linked spews out FEAR rather than LOVE. Jesus never drew the crowds to Him through FEAR. It was His love of man and His word of HOPE that drew them. This too should be our approach. Telling an unbeliever, in some threatening way, that if you don't accept Jesus now you will burn for eternity but by the way God loves you sends a very wrong message of that love. However, it is interesting to note that those that Jesus DID warn, were the religious establishment of His day. He criticized Pharisees, Saducees and the Chief Priests but you don't find Jesus giving warning to tax collectors, prostitutes etc. I am in NO WAY saying this as a comparison to other Christians. I am merely making an observation.

I prayerfully hope that what I highlighted above is not perceived as someone trying to "explain" something away but that those verses are re-examined to see if those things are so.

#39 the totton linnet

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Posted 25 January 2010 - 12:42 PM

"For God so loved the world that he gave His only begotten Son,  that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have life everlasting life"

Over and over again the scripture talks about souls perishing.  What scripturally makes you think that souls don't perish, die, or cease to exist?

In your first sentence you said we already have eternal life via our natural birth.  Why do we need this gift from God then?  You say our soul is spiritually dead.  First that's redundant.  Second it is contradictory.  If our soul can die (spiritually) then you contradict your first sentence where you say man's soul will not die.

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*
Scripturally what makes me think that souls do not die or cease to exist is the word o the Son of God in Matt:25 concerning the goats, "these shall go away to eternal punishment" There are other sayings of His along the same lines, I will not gainsay Him.

What I said was quite clear, God created man a living soul, it will not die in the sense of ceasing to be. Because man is fallen from his high estate death has come upon him, death is a state, his flesh will die his spirit is already dead, slain in trespasses and sin. When we are born again God breathes His Spirit into us and once more we are made to live spiritually, our bodies will die and our souls will enter eternity either in a state of life or a state of death, whether in a state of death or life we will have new bodies fitted to our final abode at the Day of the Lord.

For the saved this is good news for now and for eternity, for all others thy must await the Lord's judgement.

#40 the totton linnet

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Posted 25 January 2010 - 12:54 PM

This goes into another issue which is one we all, me included of course :huh:, run into and that is allowing our own "theology" or "preconceived ideas" get in the way of biblical revelation.

My own personal struggle was understanding God's Grace. For a very large part of my Christian life I always believed that God's 10 Commandments, EVEN AFTER receiving Jesus as my Savior and accepting His sacrifice on my behalf, should be strictly observed. Otherwise you could not expect God's goodness in your life.

God didn't abandon me in my error, however, but led me to other Christians who helped me see the truth clearly revealed in God's Word. Though it took me some time it finally hit me like a lightning bolt and I couldn't believe how far off I was. I was very ashamed for making God out to be this very Hard and almost Ruthless father who kept telling me how much He loved me.

This is the mindset that occurs when you think that keeping God's Commandments is what makes your relationship with Him intimate, it does not. It puts you in a spirit of condemnation and always focused on your own right doing as opposed to where the focus should really be on and that is on Jesus Christ and what He already had done. However when that revelation was made clear in my heart I rejoiced and praised God like crazy for His mercy. I knew God loved me and all people I just didn't realize just how much. And even to this day God's love continues to grow more profound.

God tells us to GROW in His Grace. 2 Peter 3:18 and we are also told to come into the UNITY of the faith. Ephesians 4:13.

You see I had a certain "Theology" or "Preconceived" idea of what Grace was and now it's so clear to me that it boggles my mind that I never seen it before. But there was no fighting scriptures that plainly said that it was HIS (Jesus Christs) righteousness, NOT mine, that was imputed to me. That FAITH in Jesus, not faith in the commandments is what Justified me, etc. The Bible was very clear and when looking into the verses that I "thought" were telling me that keeping God's 10 commandments made me right with God I realized they weren't really saying that. I had allowed my preconception to filter what the Word of God was clearly telling me. I decided that I will no longer allow any of what "I" think the bible says about any subject or doctrine stand in the way of clear Biblical revelation. However let's be clear on something. I broke that preconception through prayer, God's Holy Spirit and the help of other Christians.

I wanted to know the truth whether I liked it or not, whether I agreed with it or not. And if there was anything that I didn't understand for now, I'll keep it on a shelf until God reveals it to me further in some way. The point is working together as Christians in search of the truth, whether we agree on it or not so long as it's always done with love, we can help each other come to a more fuller understanding of God's revelation through His Word. I thank so very much those Christians who helped me. I hope that's what this all means.

It's unfortunate that an article like the one you linked spews out FEAR rather than LOVE. Jesus never drew the crowds to Him through FEAR. It was His love of man and His word of HOPE that drew them. This too should be our approach. Telling an unbeliever, in some threatening way, that if you don't accept Jesus now you will burn for eternity but by the way God loves you sends a very wrong message of that love. However, it is interesting to note that those that Jesus DID warn, were the religious establishment of His day. He criticized Pharisees, Saducees and the Chief Priests but you don't find Jesus giving warning to tax collectors, prostitutes etc. I am in NO WAY saying this as a comparison to other Christians. I am merely making an observation.

I prayerfully hope that what I highlighted above is not perceived as someone trying to "explain" something away but that those verses are re-examined to see if those things are so.

View Post

*
It's always through "other christians" why do you not read for yourself in the bible? which of God's 10 commandments by breaking have you been set free from this "cruel Father" you talk about. Jesus has in no wise aolished the commandments, if you say that breaking them has "set you free" I must doubt that you are truly a child of God.

If you are filled with the Holy Spirit you will not wilfully break any of the 10 commandments.

Jesus warned plenty about the danger of hell, eternal punishment, it is true He scarcely ever directly threatened anybody, His warnings mostly are given generally but they are stark for all that.

The imputation of righteousness that God gives is not imaginary, it is more than a belief in the mind. Jesus was righteous, He did not sin. John says that we should walk as He walked, as He was in the world so should we be. We will overcome sin by allowing Christ to truly live in us.




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