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Is Hell Eternal?


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#1 Teo

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Posted 08 June 2009 - 09:09 AM

I was taught that hell is eternal and I was amazed when I heard that some people actually believe hell is not eternal.

There are many places in the Bible where the hell is called "everlasting".
People who believe that hell is not eternal are saying that the Bible calls God a "consuming fire" and because of that the hell is not eternal.

What do you guys think?

#2 Adam Nagy

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Posted 08 June 2009 - 09:27 AM

I believe this is a man made soul soother. My very first question is this; What is the intent of reducing the severity of Hell or sin and why would somebody be concerned about it? This exposes liberal theology better than many issues... the issue of Hell, and what it is, always exposes someone who is still attached to their sin because attempting to reduce what Hell is, is also a plea to reduce the severity of sin which is as liberal, and frankly demonic, as it gets.

Just listen to AC/DC's "Hell Ain't a Bad Place to be" and you'll see who's idea this is; God's or Satan's...

#3 the totton linnet

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Posted 08 June 2009 - 01:50 PM

I believe hell is eternal and that people will be there. I think people fail to see how evil sin is in reality is because man is a limited creature, he can only reach so far, he has limited strength and ability.
In order to realize the enormity of sin you would need to take the limitations off, this is why God judges man by his thoughts and imaginations. As a man thinks so is he.
Man is not only limited in himself he is limited by external factors like law, by his own needs and reliance on others to meet his need, therefore requiring him to dwell in some kind of harmony with his fellows.
Mankind seeks through various ways to break out of these limitations, through wealth and power, and by joining forces with others in a society of evil intent.
[he can also achieve good in the same way i.e hospitals, schools]
An example of how wicked sin is when restraints are removed is the unparalled wickedness [certainly in modern times] of the nazi regime.
We do not see the inner man of sin, God does, and I fully trust Him when He says that the only thing that can be done with such souls is to salt it with fire.
Let every man and every woman consider what the thoughts and intentions-the imaginings of their heart is and let each one be sure that God sees their heart.

#4 Bex

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Posted 08 June 2009 - 02:45 PM

I was taught that hell is eternal and I was amazed when I heard that some people actually believe hell is not eternal.

There are many places in the Bible where the hell is called "everlasting".
People who believe that hell is not eternal are saying that the Bible calls God a "consuming fire" and because of that the hell is not eternal.

What do you guys think?

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Hi Teo,

Those who deny Hell's existence and reality, or misinterpret/misinform, must consequently be counted amongst the fools who say in their heart "There is no God who punishes their misdeeds". It would be undoubtedly convenient and highly agreeable to those who believe that this life is all there is, OR if there is any afterlife that there is no eternal consequence to their sins or rejection of salvation. They simply..."cease to exist".

Where and whom would be the best authority on this? The biblical word! Let me give an example of some quotes that are an undeniable testament to the unfortunate reality of Hell and the consequent eternal suffering for those that reject God and end up there. In case anybody is fooled or comforted by the "you just cease to exist" heresy, here's a wake up call.


"Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand" Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was thirsty and you gave me not to drink. I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you covered me not: sick and in prison, and you did not visit me. Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to thee? Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me". (Matt. 25:41-45)


"If any man shall adore the beast, he shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mingled with pure wine in the cup of His wrath, and shall be tormented with fire and brimestone. And the smoke of their torments shall ascend up forever and ever"(Apoc. xiv. 10). .


"the unbelieving and the abominable, murderers, whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars shall have their portion in the pool burning with fire and brimestone, which is the second death" Revelation 21:8


"Bind his hands and feet and cast him into exterior darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. For many are called, but few are chosen". (Matt. 22:13-14).


"The unprofitable servant case yet out into the exterior darkness. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Matt. 25:30).


"The son of man shall send his angels and they shall gather out of his kingdom all scandals, and them that work iniquity: "And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth".(Matt. 13:41-42).


"Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit, shall be cut down, and shall be cast into the fire. (Matt. 7:19).


"I am the vine; you the branches; he that abideth in me, and I in him, the same beareth much fruit" for without me you can do nothing. "If any one abide not in me, he shall be cast forth as a branch, and shall wither, and they shall gather him up, and cast him into the fire, and he burneth" (John 15:5, 6).


"And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet, who wrought signs before him, wherewith he seduced them who received the character of the beast, and who adored his image. These two were cast alive into the pool of fire, burning with brimestone" (Apoc. 19:20) where they were tormented day and night, for ever and ever. "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life, was cast into the pool of fire" (Apoc. 20:15).


"And if the just man shall scarely be saved, where shall the ungodly and sinner appear?"(1 Peter 4:18).


They shall be tormented with fire and brimestone and the smoke of their torments will ascend up forever and ever. Neither have they rest day or night".Revelation 14:11


"Everyone that doeth evil hateth the light, and cometh not to the light, that his works may not be reproved" John 3:20.


"I will bring an everlasting approach upon you, and a perpetual shame which shall never be forgotten". (Jer. xxiii. 40).


"If thy hand scandalize thee, cut it off; it is better for thee to enter into life, maimed, than, having two hands, to go into hell, into the fire that cannot be quenched where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not extinguished. And if they foot scandalize thee, cut it off, it is better for thee to enter lame into life, than, having two feet, to be cast into the hell of unquenchable fire, where their worm dieth not and the fire is not extinguished. And if thy eye scandalize thee, pluck it out; it is better for thee with one eye to enter the kingdom of God, than having two eyes, to be cast into the hell of fire, where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not extinguished". (Matt. 18:7-9; compare 5:29-30).


"The nourishment thereof is fire and much wood: the breath of the Lord as a torrent of brimstone kindling it." (Isaias 30: 33)


"The wicked shall see, and be angry, he shall gnash with his teeth, and pine away. . . " (Psalms 111: 10)


"We fools esteemed their life madness, and their end without honour. Behold, how they are numbered among the children of God, and their lot is among the saints. Therefore we have erred from the way of truth, and the light of justice hath not shined unto us, and the sun of understanding hath not risen upon us." (Wisdom 5:4-6) "We wearied ourselves in the way of iniquity and destruction, and have walked through hard ways, but the way of the Lord we have not known. What hath pride profited us ? or what advantage hath the boasting of riches brought us ? All those things are passed away like a shadow." (Wisdom 5: 7-9)


"And fear ye not them that kill the body, and are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him that can destroy both soul and body in hell". (Matt. 10.28).
"He will give fire, and worms into their flesh, and they may burn and may feel forever." (Judith 16: 21)



"A land of misery and darkness, where the shadow of death, and no order, but everlasting horror dwelleth." (Job 10: 22)


"These shall go into everlasting punishment." (Matthew 25: 46)


"There was a certain rich man, who was clothed in purple and fine linen; and feasted sumptuously every day. And there was a certain beggar, named Lazarus, who lay at his gate, full of sores. Desiring to be filled with the crumbs that fell from the rich man's table, and no one did give him' moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom. and the rich man also died" and he was buried in hell. "And lifting up his eyes when he was in torments, he saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried, and said, "Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water to cool my tongue: for I am tormented in this flame". And Abraham said to him: Son, remember that thou didst receive good things in thy lifetime, and likewise Lazarus evil things, but now he is comforted; and thou art tormented. And besides all this, between us and you, there is a great gulf has been fixed, to prevent those who want to cross from our side to yours or from your side to ours". So he said "Father, I beg you then to send Lazarus to my father's house. Since I have five brothers, to give them warning so that they do not come to this place of torment too." Abraham said, "They have Moses and the prophets, let them listen to them". The rich man replied, "Ah no, father Abraham, but if someone comes to them from the dead, they will repent". Then Abraham said to him, "if they will not listen either to Moses or to the prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone should rise from the dead". (Luke 16:19-31).


"It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God" (Heb. 10:31)


"which of you can dwell with devouring fire"? (Is. 33:14).


"Unless the Lord had been my helper, my soul had almost dwelt in Hell"


"What doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul" Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?" (Matt. 16:26).


"Wonder not at this; for the hour cometh, wherein all that are in the graves shall hear the voice of the Son of God. And they that have done good things shall come forth to the resurrection of life; but they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of judgement" (John. 5:28, 29).


"This is how it will be at the end of time: the angels will appear and separate the wicked from the upright, to throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and grinding of teeth (Matt. 13:49).


"These seeing it, shall be troubled with terrible fear and shall be amazed at the suddeness of the unexpected salvation of the just' saying within themselves, reptenting and groaning for anguish of spirit: These are they whom we had sometime in derision, and for a prable of reproach. We fools esteemed their life madness and their end without honor. Behold, now they are numbered among the children of God, and their lot is among the saints" (Wisd. 5: 2-5)


"Understand these things, you that forget God; lest He snatch you away and there be none to deliver you". (Ps. xlix. 22).


"Wherefore, my dearly beloved...with fear and trembling work out your salvation" (Phil. 2:12).

To doubt Hell and its realities, is to doubt the infallible word of God.

For if holy scripture tells us that "eye hath not seen nor ear heard, neither hath it entered into the heart of man what God hath prepared for them that love Him" - may it also be said that eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither hath it entered into the heart of man what God has prepared for those who repeatedly rejected the graces offered to them to save them and deliver them from sin and Hell? And if the joys of Heaven surpass all our powers of description/understanding, will not the torments of hell also be inconceivably great?

Surely quotes such as these are a sobering reminder that Hell is real, Hell is eternal and the sufferings there do not cease. The quotes should leave one in no doubt about what Christ meant. Christ could not have been more clear, and it is even repeated throughout the bible, so that one, is in actual fact, without excuse!!

#5 CTD

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Posted 08 June 2009 - 04:50 PM

It is silliness to try to "water down" Hell. It's a hopeless cause.

No hope. No relief. No end. Nobody else to blame, and nobody around gullible enough to believe a false accusation, including oneself. Reality without dream.

Just think how one would "kick" oneself, and how often. "I lived x years. In all that time, I never tried to find out the truth." Or even "I gave up because of x? What was I thinking!"

#6 Bex

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Posted 08 June 2009 - 05:26 PM

It is silliness to try to "water down" Hell. It's a hopeless cause.

No hope. No relief. No end. Nobody else to blame, and nobody around gullible enough to believe a false accusation, including oneself. Reality without dream.

Just think how one would "kick" oneself, and how often. "I lived x years. In all that time, I never tried to find out the truth." Or even "I gave up because of x? What was I thinking!"

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It is also the ultimate waste, because Hell was not meant for any of us. Each soul has been purchased at a high price. But because of those that reject God, like Satan, they will join him for eternity and miss out on their Heavenly inheritance! What a horrible way to spend eternity and with the knowledge that they chose it for themselves.

All of us were created with an eternal soul. It does not cease to exist! But in a sense it is "dead to Christ", when such a soul has rejected Him to the end, and thus rejected all means of grace. Sadly, it is then too late. Our life on earth is the journey towards eternity. The question is, where will we reside?

There are testimonies in witnesses of visions/near death experiences by ordinary people/Saints etc to also consider, which just add/confirm the descriptions and warnings of Christ.

#7 Arch

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Posted 08 June 2009 - 07:45 PM

I was taught that hell is eternal and I was amazed when I heard that some people actually believe hell is not eternal.

There are many places in the Bible where the hell is called "everlasting".
People who believe that hell is not eternal are saying that the Bible calls God a "consuming fire" and because of that the hell is not eternal.

What do you guys think?

View Post


Well first off Teo, I'm an atheist so heaven and hell are just stories to me. That aside I don't really understand how calling God a "consuming fire" prevents eternal hell. Is there something I'm missing?

Since we're talking about hell I've got another theological question to pose. If God forgives everyone, why is there a hell? It's a fairly common question posed to religious groups and although I have my own answer, I'd be interested to hear other people's take on it first.

Regards,

Arch.

#8 Adam Nagy

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Posted 08 June 2009 - 08:11 PM

Since we're talking about hell I've got another theological question to pose. If God forgives everyone, why is there a hell? It's a fairly common question posed to religious groups and although I have my own answer, I'd be interested to hear other people's take on it first.

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Salvation, like any unearned gift is still subject to acceptance. People are virtually walking themselves to Hell with their sins forgiven. Can you think of anything more foolish than that? Multitudes of people will spit in the face of the God who died in their place and march themselves to Hell because they believed lies.

#9 Bex

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Posted 08 June 2009 - 08:14 PM

Well first off Teo, I'm an atheist so heaven and hell are just stories to me. That aside I don't really understand how calling God a "consuming fire" prevents eternal hell. Is there something I'm missing?

Since we're talking about hell I've got another theological question to pose. If God forgives everyone, why is there a hell? It's a fairly common question posed to religious groups and although I have my own answer, I'd be interested to hear other people's take on it first.

Regards,

Arch.

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God cannot save a person who rejects salvation. By the action of turning ones will against God, one automatically chooses Hell for themselves. This is the ultimate eternal separation from God. Whilst on earth, we still have means to change, even to death. There are sometimes death bed conversions. But I would not like to pin my hopes on the last minute! Many die as they live I'm sure and I dare say there are enough who are caught off guard and thought they'd have more time to change! We all think we have tommorrow!

However, God only knows the intention of the soul and those who may cry out, even at the last moment from a sincere, repentent heart, would be a grateful soul indeed to find the Christ they have ignored/rejected/disbelieved has opened His mercy to them. But a soul who sets their will, regardless of the graces and chances given? They seal their own fate and have nobody to blame but themselves.

Even though Christ died for everybody, the saving blood of Christ, can only be applied and work inside a soul who is open and willing to receive it. The offer is there for all without exception. Even the worst of sinners has means to be forgiven/cleansed from their sin and reconciled to God, but that takes action on their part to receive it.

#10 Arch

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Posted 08 June 2009 - 08:25 PM

God cannot save a person who rejects salvation.  By the action of turning ones will against God, one automatically chooses Hell for themselves. This is the ultimate eternal separation from God.  Whilst on earth, we still have means to change, even to death.  There are sometimes death bed conversions.  But I would not like to pin my hopes on the last minute!  Many die as they live I'm sure and I dare say there are enough who are caught off guard and thought they'd have more time to change!  We all think we have tommorrow!

However, God only knows the intention of the soul and those who may cry out, even at the last moment from a sincere, repentent heart, would be a grateful soul indeed to find the Christ they have ignored/rejected/disbelieved has opened His mercy to them.  But a soul who sets their will, regardless of the graces and chances given?  They seal their own fate and have nobody to blame but themselves.

Even though Christ died for everybody, the saving blood of Christ, can only be applied and work inside a soul who is open and willing to receive it.  The offer is there for all without exception.  Even the worst of sinners has means to be forgiven/cleansed from their sin and reconciled to God, but that takes action on their part to receive it.

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Drat, I was hoping I might get some more interesting answers before someone nailed it :lol:

Agreed Bex, this is the same conclusion I came too. It is also why there are some who claim the only person to ever end up in hell was Judas. God forgives everyone, hell is for those that cannot forgive themselves.

Regards,

Arch.

#11 ikester7579

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Posted 09 June 2009 - 01:41 AM

I was taught that hell is eternal and I was amazed when I heard that some people actually believe hell is not eternal.

There are many places in the Bible where the hell is called "everlasting".
People who believe that hell is not eternal are saying that the Bible calls God a "consuming fire" and because of that the hell is not eternal.

What do you guys think?

View Post


Well here is my 2 cents on his issue.

1) If hell were eternal, a judgement would not be needed. A person would just go there and stay.
2) If hell were eternal, the Lake of Fire would not be needed.
3) If hell were eternal, it would not get thrown into the lake of fire.
4) If hell were eternal, a judgement for guilt or innocence would not be needed.

Side note: The rest of what I am about to say is a conclusion I have come to researching this issue through the osas vs no-osas debate (osas=once saved always saved). And this opinion may not be held by the owner of this forum.

As some here already know, I have debated the issue of osas vs no=osas until blue in the face. I have come at it from every angle, and dared to ask questions that most people would not from either side. This is because I wanted truth on this issue. Now the reason I brought this up is because researching this subject has also revealed other things. So I'm not trying to derail the thread,I'm just letting you guys know where and how I came up with this because what I'm abut to tell you is totally new doctrine. For I have not seen it anywhere else.

So I ask not to take it seriously until you check it out against scripture.

Anyway here is a new doctrine I have concluded after over 3 years of intense debate and research. None of it that I can tell contradicts scripture. So get ready to be shocked as the word starts to make even more sense.

Step one of my conclusion: What bothered me most was unanswered questions about what certain verses meant. I was always taught that those whom get pulled out of hell for judgement were already condemned. But this one word (whosoever) made me doubt that teaching.

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

You see, God does not speak idle words. So when I read that about the people whom were pulled out of hell I knew there was some way that some would go to heaven. But there were questions:

1) Who were these people?
2) Would this break the rule that there is only one way to heaven?

Step two: What I found out while doing this research is that to comprehend what I am about to tell you, is very advanced Christian learning. If you are new in Christ you probably won't get this because it actually requires one to understand several things about faith ad the word, and that takes time. Not understanding is a fail safe mechanism that God made so that the new in Christ do not learn what they are not ready for. Because some things can really rock the foundation of your faith if you are not ready to learn it.

Now back to subject... I figured these people had to enter hell from another way that did not conclude at life's end. Because being in hell at life's end was by choice. And the judgement of that choice was ending up in eternal damnation. But who was it that did not end up in hell the regular way?

Matthew 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


You see the goats entered into hell another way. They are the ones who are different. So now that I have found who this is I now searched for other supporting verses on this issue.

Step three: Now why were these people called goats then thrown into the fire of hell?

1) They failed the judgement of Christ.
2) Goats on a fire are an old testament sin atonement.

So that got me to thinking. Is there a way to have a second chance after you fail the judgement of Christ?

1cor 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Goats on a fire are sin atonement. And if you fail the "kingdom" works judgement of Christ you can be saved by fire. You see there are 2 types of works:
1) Carnal works which mean nothing in the kingdomm (which are the ones that will burn).
2) Kingdom works which is what the judgement was in front of Christ (which are the ones that won't burn).

What were these kingdom works?

Christ speaking (spiritual meanings):
1) For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat (meat of the word).
2) I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink (milk of the word).
3) I was a stranger, and ye took me in (stranger unto the word=unsaved sinner).

Christ speaking (physical meanings):
1) Naked, and ye clothed me.
2) I was sick, and ye visited me.
3) I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

Notice each is a trinity, and each are kingdom works. 3 are of the spirit, and 3 are of the flesh. Now remember, unsaved sinners cannot be judged by this standard because they "never" entered into the covenant. So this is all the nations of who have entered into the new covenant.

Also notice that not once is the shed blood of Christ mentioned. What this means is to even be at Christ's throne, you had to already have this. So standing here means you are, or were in the covenant.

But I had more questions.

Step four: Why was fire being used to save some people?

Fire, in a spiritual since, means 3 things.
1) Torment for sin (punishment).
2) Sin atonement (forgiveness of sin).
3) Purification (to purify of sin).

The goats were having numbers 2 and 3 done to them so that when they came up for the second judgment, there was a chance they would get into heaven "if" their name ended up in the book of life.

But I had even more questions.

Step five: Are there verses supporting Christ giving people to the Father for judgment?

John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Notice the word hand in each verse. Being in the Hands of Christ is interpreted in most doctrines as being saved. So I research this and never once were hands used as a way of salvation. Hands were used as a means of judgment. Right hand blessngs, left hand cursings. This is why the sheep and goats were separated right to left. So the hand passing from Chist unto the Father is also judgment passing. What this means if you fail the first judgment, you will pass from Christ's hands of judgment unto the Father's. But to do so and be worthy of the Father. One has to become:

1) A goat.
2) Be put on a fire for sin atonement.
3) Be purified by that fire (saved by fire).

But, for this process to even work. One first must be in the hands of Christ, and be judged as a goat. Being a goat is the whole key to the truth of this matter. Without that one thing, I would have never thought of this and then be able to back it all up with scripture.

But I still had ore questions.

Step six: How long in the fire will the goats be?

While we are being corrected by the rod for one thousand years to prepare us to live in heaven. The goats will be getting corrected (purified and saved by fire) for a thousand years also.

So being judged as a goat does not totally condemn a person. But what it does mean is that if you failed one covenant, there is another. How one ends up going to heaven will be determined by one's kingdom works. Which are basically the works of Christ.

mt 11:2 Now when John had heard in the prison the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples,

So what this basically means is that the shed blood of Christ gets one in front of Christ's throne. How one enters into heaven is determined by one's kingdom works (Christ works).

So did it blow your mind?

#12 Ron

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Posted 09 June 2009 - 02:41 AM

Since we're talking about hell I've got another theological question to pose. If God forgives everyone, why is there a hell? It's a fairly common question posed to religious groups and although I have my own answer, I'd be interested to hear other people's take on it first.

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This question has been answered many times over, and yet the atheist attempts to regurgitate this misconception at every turn. It’s only a “fairly common question” for those who want to dwell on its scriptural misinterpretation (intentionally or unintentionally).

So, if you could, please provide the scripture that says “God forgives everyone”, we can move on form there. :lol:

#13 ikester7579

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Posted 09 June 2009 - 03:32 AM

This question has been answered many times over, and yet the atheist attempts to regurgitate this misconception at every turn. It’s only a “fairy common question” for those who want to dwell on its scriptural misinterpretation (intentionally or unintentionally).

So, if you could, please provide the scripture that says “God forgives everyone”, we can move on form there.  :lol:

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It is man's natural since to try and get to heaven by himself. This is because man does not want to be told what to do, or how to live. And every Christian battles with this as well. And this is why so any live a life of compromise.

Arch,

1) If one can get to Heaven upon his own doing, how would you be able to stay in Heaven and remain eternal?

The laws of eternity are different, and cannot exist where sin exists.

2) Who would you expect to go to haven with you? Murders, rapists, child molestors, etc...?

For God to be fair, if he allows one sin,He has to allow them all. Because of this God cannot draw the line in th middle of sin, but instead at he beginning.

3) If sin exists in Heaven, and is the root of all evil. Why would you want to go to a place that would be no different from where you currently are?

Because if you think God should allow some sins, then what would make Heaven different? Heaven is a promotion of sorts, not just a transition only deal. And because you had to endure this place, would you not want to go to a better place?

I don't know about you, but to endure this place with all it's evil and thn go to a place that I will live eternally in the same situation. Is not very appealing. So to make it better, would it not make sense to have a more perfect place to go, where all your worries are no more?

You see, have you ever done something you wish you did not do, or did not want to do? Or something you continue to do but wish you could stop (like an addiction etc...). Now what do you think makes you do these things when it's really in your grain not to, or you don't want to?

You see the Bible says these are temptations. And temptations require a tempter. So sin is basically a temtation brought on by the tempter (Satan). This was illustrated in the garden as it took Satan (snake) to tempt Eve to sin. Do you think Eve wanted to disobey God? Of course not.

This is what will make Heaven different from earth. The tempter won't be there. Understand? We won't be tempted to sin, so what is in our grain not to do, will be who we really are in Heaven. Now how much stress do you think that will releave you of not having to worry about doing what you really don't want to do? Now you know why it's called Heaven.

It's an eternal vacation from sin and the temptation of it. No addictions, no temptations, no worries of messing up. Just life as it has never been experienced before. Now does that not sound like a place you would rather go? Or does one with sin, temptation, and no differet from here sound better?

So why does it have to be that way?

Sin brings death. Eternity cannot be eternal were sin and death exist. That is the law of how that realm has to work. So what better way to make it work then to remove what makes a person sin (the tempter), then provide a way (Christ) to allow a finite being to become infinite? Because without Christ, how would you know how to stay eternal if you ended up in eternity all by yourself?

Example: If you ended up in eternity and did not know you were not supposed to sin. How long would you last?

#14 deadlock

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Posted 09 June 2009 - 03:55 AM

If we are not gods, our acts haven´t infinite value, in despite of them being good or bad. So, why an eternal punishment for finite sins ?

#15 Adam Nagy

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Posted 09 June 2009 - 07:22 AM

Ikester brought something up that does deserve notice. Hell specifically is not eternal because it does itself get cast into the Lake of Fire. It's easy to make the two synonymous and I'm guilty of it myself. So I would like to rephrase what I meant. I believe there is a place where people will gnash their teeth forever and ever. That place is the Lake of Fire:

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.


14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire . This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire .


Deadlock,

What scripture says and whether we can fathom such a punishment are two different things. I personally don't like the idea of Hell or the Lake of Fire being everlasting as clearly stated. However, our job is to trust His word.

It's believed, quite substantially I might add, that Charles Taze Russell started the Jehovah's Witnesses because he refused to accept the doctrine of everlasting punishment. From that, an entire segment of false teaching arose.

As for the idea of people being saved from Hell during the period that it is cast in to the Lake of Fire, I'm not sure I'm prepared to connect those dots but Ikester's conjuncture is interesting. I just doubt it's stable enough to build a doctrine on.

#16 the totton linnet

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Posted 09 June 2009 - 08:30 AM

If we are not gods, our acts haven´t infinite value, in despite of them being good or bad. So, why an eternal punishment for finite sins ?

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*
Good trees bear good fruit and rotten trees bear rotten fruit, what would you say was the difference between the Salvation army as a movement, springing largely from one life and the nazi regime springing largely from one life, one produced the holocaust while the other has resulted in countless millions of people saved unto eternal life, fed and clothed and sheltered in the here and now, and shaming [by the admission of men like Asquith, Lloyd George and Churchill] governments into social welfare provision.
The fact of evil and the fact that it is perpetrated by men, as Ike said, tempted and led astray in their minds by satan proves that there will be a calling to account, not so much on account of what people have done but on account of what people are, but how can you judge except by deeds or fruits?
If somebody slaps you you want justice don't you? everyone wants justice. People have suffered the injustice of their lives brutally cut short. Millions are starving in the world today, Mothers swatting flies from their dying children as a direct result of political decisions taken on your behalf and my behalf. Don't tell me that there is no calling to account for these things.
The bible teaches that when men and women [what about children?] are slain their souls cry out to God for justice, these are solemn truths, how shallow and stupid the atheists are in their diatribes can be seen on that forum, they are doing their bit for the advancement of such political movements as the nazi or communist regimes, their little bit in swaying opinion against the truth.

#17 Bex

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Posted 09 June 2009 - 02:15 PM

Drat, I was hoping I might get some more interesting answers before someone nailed it :rolleyes:

Agreed Bex, this is the same conclusion I came too. It is also why there are some who claim the only person to ever end up in hell was Judas. God forgives everyone, hell is for those that cannot forgive themselves.

Regards,

Arch.

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Hi Arch,

I think you misread or misinterpreted my post. God does not forgive everybody. Forgiveness of sin and reconciliation comes by means of His son Jesus Christ! Yes, Jesus DIED for everybody. So that everybody would have the means to be forgiven. But how many ignore/reject/disbelieve? Such people, if they continue, will not enter Heaven. We are unacceptable for Heaven because we are ALL sinners. We are separated from God through sin. But God gave us the remedy in His son Jesus Christ. The perfect sacrifice for sin, so that through Him, we could be cleansed and reconciled to the Father!

1 John 1:9 , "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteouness."


Nobody can get themselves into Heaven and save themselves from Hell without Jesus Christ. If one ignores/rejects/disbelieves in He that is THE way, THE truth and THE life, (our souls lifeline if you will) then we choose eternal separation from God. Why? Because the remedy and reconciliation itself has been denied.

How is one forgiven? By repenting of ones sin and asking forgiveness. Asking Jesus to cleanse them and come into their life. It can be a very simple prayer, as long as it is sincere. Here is such an example from the bible itself:

"Father, in JESUS' name I ask you to forgive me of all my sins. I repent Lord. Come into my life. Fill me with the Holy Spirit. With your help, I will "stop sinning" (John 5:14). Amen."


If one isn't sure or has doubts, but would LIKE to be sure? They can simply ask God to help them in their doubts and for Him to lead them to the truth. God does not ignore a sincere request. What is to be lost by trying? Because if death is all there is? Such a person simply goes into nothingness. It is the "what ifs" that should stir anybody into action, because eternity is a very very long time to regret denying a God you weren't 100% certain didn't exist in the first place.

Our life here is but a journey towards eternity. Each day is a gift/grace from God. We can use that to come closer to Him (or come to Him if a person never has), or we can misuse it by continuing in sin, continuing to ignore Him or carry on as though this life is all there is and there is "no God".

The choice is ours.

#18 ikester7579

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Posted 09 June 2009 - 04:12 PM

If we are not gods, our acts haven´t infinite value, in despite of them being good or bad. So, why an eternal punishment for finite sins ?

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jn 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

This is so because we are sons and daughters of God the Father upon entering the covenant. But not by means of power or perfection because we cannot obtain those while in our finite flesh. That is why we are "gods" and not "God". It is only through the covenant that upon relationsip and the acceptance of whom our spiritual Father is.

#19 Ron

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Posted 09 June 2009 - 04:52 PM

Hi Arch,
I think you misread or misinterpreted my post. 

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:rolleyes:

#20 CTD

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Posted 09 June 2009 - 06:19 PM

I see talk of finite offense and infinite punishment. Sometimes we think we know more than we really do.

Suppose you build yourself a music box and I accidentally break it. How can things be restored? If I have the means, I might try to replace it. A box of lower quality wouldn't do at all. Everyone knows that's not justice. I could perhaps repair your box, and that's something we might agree to settle on; but it wouldn't be perfect justice.

Perfect justice is very difficult for us. There are so many considerations that come into play. What if this was a special achievement because you'd never built anything yourself? Even if I find a perfect replacement, how can I make up for the lost time during which you were without your music? Would it make a difference if it wasn't an accident, and I broke the box on purpose?

These issues are too much for us, and we settle for "close enough" in everyday life. One doesn't see too many claims of perfect justice. But we all know how to get in the neighborhood.

Now then, suppose I don't have the means to replace the box. I cannot build or buy or repair. So instead, I hire musicians of your choosing to play your song any time you like. Justicewise, we could calculate the maximum life expectancy of your music box, and I might be providing you with musicians for 20 or 30 years, maybe more.

Okay, now suppose God has made a music box to last for ever. If I break it, what are the just consequences?

Suppose God has created an unique creature, capable of playing all sorts of songs, and much more. Capable of composing new songs, writing poems, painting, dancing, and even inventing entirely new artforms. What is then justice for one who screws things up so God is forever without His rightful due? Now add in God's infinite love, and His right to be loved in return by the creature. If anyone is so smart, they can add intention also. And if they're that smart, they'll know who the creature is by now.

This is but the beginning for some. God judges the heart, and there are those who desire to rob God of many souls, each one more valuable than we can express with finite terms.

I could say more, but that's enough. Perfect justice is no easy matter, and I think God understands it a lot better than we do.




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