Sif,Jun 20 2009, 10:22 PM]
Lets clone a Neanderthal and try, what do you say?
How do you suppose we'll achieve this?
But seriously, If they ever get to do this, that would be incredible to say the least. I personally do not agree with cloning, but it'd be a feat indeed if they cloned a Neanderthal from fossil DNA.
That way he'd be clearly observed, which would put a halt to the assumptions and bias depictions of the typical animated brute-like pictures and descriptions we're presented with. http://evolution-fac...ook/E-H-13a.htm
Neanderthals had larger craniums than we do. They had larger brains! This indicates regression of our race from a former longer-lived, more intelligent, race rather than evolutionary progression. Brain capacity is an important indicator of whether a cranium (the part of the skull which encloses the brain) belongs to an ape or a person.
"The cranial capacity of the Neanderthal race of Homo sapiens was, on the average, equal to or even greater than that in modern man."Ã¢â‚¬â€*Theodosius Dobzhansky, "Changing Man," in Science, January 27, 1967, p. 410.
"Normal human brain size is 1450cc.-1500 cc. NeanderthalÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s is 1600 cc. If his brow is low, his brain is larger than modern manÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s."Ã¢â‚¬â€Michael Pitman, Adam and Evolution (1984), p. 87.
"The [Neanderthal] brain case on the average was more than 13 percent larger than that of the average of modern man."Ã¢â‚¬â€Erich A. von Fange, "Time Upside Down," in Creation Research Society Quarterly, June 1974, p. 23.
They also had well-developed culture, art, and religion. At the present time, most scientists agree that Neanderthals were just plain people that lived in caves for a time. Unfortunately, we are still waiting for this change in thinking to be seen in childrenÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s textbooks.
Hardly the stuff of brute-like and primitive ancestry eh?
The Neanderthals possessed the hyoid bone, which is necessary for human speech. They have been found with tools and weapons, cave drawings, evidences of burial, and even a musical instrument. In fact, the finger holes of the Neanderthal flute found in Slovenia in 1995 were spaced according to the diatonic scale Ã¢â‚¬â€œ do re me fa so la ti do Ã¢â‚¬â€œ which argues that its maker possessed both intelligence and a musical ear. The Neanderthal image is having to be revamped as scientists realize that while they were thicker boned and more physically powerful than we are today, these humans were also intelligent, creative, and spiritually-aware people.
In fact, Dr. Jack Cuozzo, a New Jersey orthodontist who has studied several of the Neanderthal skulls firsthand, argues that based on his experience of studying bone growth, the Neanderthals may have simply lived extremely long lives - perhaps 400-500 years rather than our typical 80.
Ironically, the name Neander is a classical version of Neumann, which means "new man." Even more ironic is the way the "New Man" Valley received its name. In the mid 1600s, a young man named Joachin Neander settled in Dusseldorf, Germany as rector of the Latin school. While suspended from teaching during some disagreements with the Reformed church, he spent a great deal of time walking in the nearby river valley and writing hymns. Apparently, he spent so much time in that pleasant valley near Dusseldorf, it was later named for him. His hymns were published and some, like the following verse, are sung today.
"Praise ye the Lord the Almighty, the King of Creation
Oh my soul praise him for he is thy health and salvation
All ye who hear, now to his temple draw near
Join me in glad adoration."
As scientists work to place the Neanderthals in their appropriate place in human history, the very name given these ancient humans brings to mind that other Neander Valley man who praised God as the Almighty Ã¢â‚¬â€œ and perhaps the Neanderthal bones, even now, are bringing glory to the same King of Creation.
Ã¢â‚¬Â¢ Joachim Neander - Answers.com
Ã¢â‚¬Â¢ Neanderthal Flute - NYU
Ã¢â‚¬Â¢ Neanderthal: 99.5 Percent Human - Live Science
Ã¢â‚¬Â¢ Saint Cesaire - eMuseum
Ã¢â‚¬Â¢ What About the Neanderthals? - Creation Defense
Ã¢â‚¬Â¢ The Continuing Story of Neandert(h)al Man - Centrum voor Recht and ICThttp://www.evolution...chapter10_2.phpNEANDERTHAL SKULL. A ROBUST PEOPLE!IN CONTRAST: THE ANIMATED EVOLUTIONARY DEPICTION
26,000 YEAR OLD NEEDLE: An interesting fossil showing that the Neanderthals had knowledge of clothing: A needle 26,000 years old. (D. Johanson, B. Edgar From Lucy to Language, p. 99)
(check this Neanderthal Flute - NYU
to find out more information)
And here is something interesting too:A Hut 1.7 Million Years Old Findings of a 1.7 million-year-old hut shocked the scientific community. It looked like the huts used by some Africans today.
There have been many findings demonstrating that Homo sapiens dates back even earlier than 800,000 years. One of them is a discovery by Louis Leakey in the early 1970s in Olduvai Gorge. Here, in the Bed II layer, Leakey discovered that Australopithecus, Homo Habilis and Homo erectus species had co-existed at the same time. What is even more interesting was a structure Leakey found in the same layer (Bed II). Here, he found the remains of a stone hut. The unusual aspect of the event was that this construction, which is still used in some parts of Africa, could only have been built by Homo sapiens! So, according to Leakey's findings, Australopithecus, Homo habilis, Homo erectus and modern man must have co-existed approximately 1.7 million years ago.93
This discovery must surely invalidate the evolutionary theory that claims that modern men evolved from ape-like species such as Australopithecus.
An ape-like, primitive past?
Our closest common ancestor with chimps lived 6 million years ago. thats not really very close, but whatever.
Oh and you have clear cut evidence of this? Please do present the undeniable lineage from the common ancestor leading up to modern day man. No animated chart scenarios. Let's see the fossil evidences for this.
By apes, you do realize that humans are apes? (homo sapiens sapiens is under the taxonomic rank Hominidae, otherwise known as Great Apes. So what evidence do we have that apes can mate humans? Because humans ARE apes.
Because scientists have decided to classify humans in the "apes" taxonomic group is hardly surprising, considering the massive efforts to push evolution. See how far you get in todays areas of science/biology without conforming to the evolution belief system. Why do so many scientists endorse evolution?
If we ARE apes, then successful interbreeding should be no problem. Do you have evidence of such a successful outcome, rather than just telling everybody we're apes and therefore it must be so.
First of all i'd like to mention that there is subspecies and infraspecies
Secondly, you fail
Chimpanzees aren't in our genus, they are a separate subtribe (panina) / genus (pan)
You fail. I mentioned apes, not chimps.
How about Endogenous Retroviruses? Sure you can claim that it's a wild coincidence that our ERV's line up with the ERV's in chimps genome, whatever. But this doesn't explain why we have more ERV's in common with our closest relative and less and less the farther we go in the phylogenetic sense, as confirmed by every single other independent field of biology.
We also have cancers and other diseases in common with animals. That fact that ERV's line up with the ERV's in chimps is not too surprising either. This is no way contrasts with creation/Genesis. We share a common designer and common matter!
However, it is also interesting that the are enough differences between us and the primates that the parts used to replace heart valves etc in people are taken from pig parts, not
the parts from apes. Why is this so? If we are merely apes, why is it that we do not use the parts from apes when such things go wrong and need replacing? We reject ape parts, but we do not reject pig parts. In fact, my doctor is trying to get my on thyroid pills (pig thyroid).
Perhaps this makes us pigs?
I have also heard evolution claim that we share a common ancestor with rats. I'm sure many of us could class a few humans as pigs, apes and rats on occassion.
Oh really? Well even basic biology indicates that the Cheetah is the fastest land mammal, so they are clearly not animals. The blue whale is the largest extant creature in this planet. Clearly, it's not an animal.
What does speed of foot, or brute strength for that matter have to do with the unique mind of man? Many animals are stronger and faster than human beings. The mind of the human being is unique from that of the animals. This is what I have explained to you, which you have either ignored or overlooked as though it's "trivia". How can it be trivia when you consider the achievements of mankind throughout history and the fact you'd not be sitting on here debating about anything at all if it was not for the human abilities you have been endowed with that separates you from the other animals.
Now you're being very subjective and selective. You can't just pick out one character and claim it to be the thing that separates one species from the rest of them. They all are different. Duh!
Duh! I did not point to ONE character! Unless of course you consider the human mind as ONE
characteristic? Observation should be a key in pointing out the obvious alone, but evidentally it escapes you completely. The incredible detail of the human brain and all that's involved would take much for you to try and analyse! This control center is not the only thing that seperates us from animals, but it would have to be one of the main ones! More complex than a computer! Hardly the stuff of trivia.
And some have the gifts of just being a redneck? BTW a singer has more of a vocal ability than cerebral. As i already pointed out: yes, we are more intelligent than other species, so what?
Yes, but even a redneck can perform mental tasks that animals cannot. The mind of man is indeed unique. Ignoring that fact or making out "So what" just shows the deliberate limitations you wish to set on this in order to support your theory.
Actually our spine isn't very related to the ability for upright posture, it's our pelvis that does the trick. And it wasn't designed, it evolved. Same way you could pour some water in a glass and say that it was clearly designed for that shape.
You should add muscles and ligaments. Each of these was designed by an intelligent mind to be put together for the desired function and result. They didn't self assemble I assure you. Unless you can give me an example of such.
How did the glass get there and what shaped it? Did it evolve?
Singling out a characteristic and saying it separates us from others is just childish.
Making out I singled out a "characteristic" is both dishonest, dismissive and incorrect.
Here's a small quiz to know if you're an animal
Are you eukaryotic? I assume yes
Are you multicellular? I assume yes
Are you a heterotroph? I assume yes
Are you lacking a cell wall? I assume yes
Are you motile? yes
Then you're an animal
And this is all it takes to convince you that we must be animals? One wonders, do you take what seperates us from the animals into account?
I have some for you
And I'll make it even easier by comparing humans with their most "closest" relative! Rather than just animals collectively. Let me know how you go on these.
Which set of 18 traits do you relate to? Here is the first set of 18 traits:
1. Small brains, averaging about 400 cc
2. Have no neck - spine joins skull from the back; extensive muscular connections between head and shoulder, suitable for climbing
3. Have a C-shaped spine for walking on all fours
4. Jaws protrude, to see better upwards than downwards
5. 29 facial muscles for expression and recognition
6. Small semi-circular canals in the inner ear
7. Arms longer than the legs
8. Four hands for climbing; knuckle-walking on all fours
9. Knee joints do not lock upright
10. Hairy body for heat insula- tion, no female pubic hair or male top lip; no long beard or moustache possible
11. Sclera of the eye brown, white rarely shown
12. Hip joints do not extend fully upright so can only stand with bent legs
13. Short Achilles tendon
14. Nails grow more like claws, very slowly
15. Larynx and vocal cords capable of only simple sounds
16. Ears sensitive to frequencies of 1-8 kilohertz
17. No hymen in female; male *that word not allowed* has a bone or baculum for erection; female fertility not hidden
18. Mammary glands purely for milk production; easy birth of young Second set of 18 traits:
1. Brain size is large but very variable, averaging about 1400 cc (fossils range from 700 to 1800 cc); humans have a highly developed cortex, wired differently from the chimp cortex
2. Have a neck - spine joins skull from below; head stabilised by nuchal ligament
3. Have an S-shaped spine for upright stance and walking
4. Faces are flat, to see both upwards and downwards (necessary for walking)
5. 53 facial muscles for more complex social relationships
6. Large semi-circular canals in the inner ear, for balance in the vertical plane
7. Legs longer than the arms
8. Feet unlike hands, suitable for walking rather than climbing
9. Knee joints that lock upright
10. Constantly growing hairs on top of head; hairy male face, pubic hairs, otherwise hair is sparse
11. Sclera are white, and often shown by use of extra face muscles, for expression
12. Hip joints extend upright; large buttock muscles and pelvic attachment areas aid running; additional buttock fat for beauty
13. Long Achilles tendon
14. Finger and toe nails grow fast
15. Larynx and vocal chords capable of complex sounds, including singing
16. Ears sensitive to frequencies of 2-4 kilohertz, suitable for hearing speech
17. Hymen in female; male *that word not allowed* made erect entirely by blood, and twice size of apes; female fertility hidden
18. Female breasts enhanced by body fat for beauty, birth of young slow and painful
We all share in common a common designer who made us, birds and beasts from the matter of the earth! It is expected that we share many biologic similarities, and breath the same oxygen, and in "many" circumstances can consume the same foods the creator has provided in abundance. This must be so, or the land dwelling creatures would be incompatible with the earth itself and the foods that grow forth from it.
It is He whom has provided us with the means to live and thrive upon the same earth. We must be biologically compatible!
But what makes man unique and separated from the animals? Not just our creative and unique mind, and not just the other obvious differences, but God breathed into us a living soul.
See to you as an atheist? This is meaningless. So it is hardly surprising that you classify humans as mere animals! But I can guarantee you, that you'd not be too happy to be locked behind a cage at a zoo! It's interesting how suddenly aware one is of their differences to other animals, even apes when it suits!
Our beliefs of what we are so often grounded upon our beliefs about our origins.
For me as a believer? I do not believe that mere chance/coincidence occurances are responsible for the earth and the universe, the natural laws, or the life upon it. Everything around smacks of blatant design! A life giver, a law giver, a provider!