Careful performedge, you're fixen to get anything but an answer for that questionÃ‚Â
Oh shoot, thanks Ron I completely forgot to answer that one.
I think every force has a material entity. So no, I don't believe in non-material forces. Do you? And if yes, can you demonstrate them?
Thanks Arch for the reply, and Adam, I will be happy to explain in-material forces.
First, Arch, yes I do believe in in-material forces and they clearly exist as you will recognize shortly.
The reason I asked the question was to demonstrate that "most" atheists are materialists. That, they usually admit. They generally also believe in materialistic naturalism. Notice Arch, you admitted to "not believing in non-material forces in the universe." That by definition is a faith based
statement from your faith in materialism.
Now I don't have a problem with anyone who believes this way as long as they recognize it.
However, this is why Christians have such a problem with atheistic science, is because their materialistic faith has blinded them to the in-material realities of our universe.
Yes, Arch, there are well known in-material forces in our universe. The words in-material or non-material simply mean not composed of real particles of matter.
It means exactly what it says.
The first well known force is gravity. A force that everyone is aquainted with. We see it's physical reality, but we cannot descibe it scientifically very well. The reason we can't describe it is that it is not composed of matter. It has been descibed by Newton as obeying certain laws. But then Einsten blew that away with relativity, and it appears to be related to a curvature of the space time continuum. But even Einstein's theories don't work at the material particle level. So here we have a well known, in-material force, that is absolutely known to exist. But there is more!
According to scientific consensus....(BBT) gravity was at an infinite magnitude just before the singularity that caused the universe to exist. So let's recap. An in-material force with infinite magnitude was in place before the BB. Sounds sort of supernatural, doesn't it?
But that's not all....
Gravity is everywhere in the universe. That has the ring of omni-presence, doesn't it?
The scripture clearly states that God and Jesus created the universe.
Col 1:16Ã‚Â For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him.
Col 1:17Ã‚Â He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
So let's recap again....Gravity was infinite in magnitude (all powerful) at the singularity of the BB. It is an invisible, in-material force that is omni-present in the universe. And it is a force that holds all things together. In each case we have attributes of God, the supernatural, being defined as natural.
Rom 1:20Ã‚Â For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
Rom 1:21Ã‚Â For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22Ã‚Â Professing to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23Ã‚Â and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.
Rom 1:24Ã‚Â Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them.
Rom 1:25Ã‚Â For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
My argument is that science has evidence for God. They just have exchanged the truth of His existance for the lie that nature provided the means for creation and gravity and the other fundamental forces.
But Jason that's not all...God is Light! Light is an electromagnectic force in the universe that is in-material. Light carries energy. It acts like waves sometimes and acts like a particle sometimes. Science has a very difficult time describing light. It has some unique properties like it's speed, which is related to time and eternality. Everone knows that light exists, but some reject that God is responsible for this in-material/invisible force in the universe. Scientists have described light as being made up of photons. But that is just a definition attached to a word that means that this in-material thing carries energy. And of course light is what makes scientists "cleary see"
the invisible attributes of God, yet they reject the truth.
But that's not all Jason...We have the stong nuclear force which literally holds all things together. Again a well known, invisible, in-material force that holds particles together in the nucleus of an atom. Scientists call the mediator of this force a gluon (definition). Which is bascally a vector gauge boson which is a virtual particle. An inmaterial particle that must exist for this force to exist. Science has once again found evidence for God, but their futile minds have defined it as natural. And once again, God has confused them with His wisdom, because they basically have no clue as to how or why this thing exists. And the release of this force is enormous. we make some pretty neat bombs from it!
And that's not all Jason...We have the weak nuclear force. The force that causes beta nuclear decay. A force that God created after the fall. A force that is part of the curse. Again, an invisible, in-material force that scientists have descibed by the means of virtual particles called bosons.
Christians and the Bible descibe God as the creator of the universe. One who is omnipotent, omni-present, and omniscient. Every single attribute above is now attributed to this thing defined as "nature". In fact, the current scientific definition of nature leaves the possibility of the supenatural a fallacy. So atheistic science has simply just defined God out
, and redefined every aspect of the physical reality of God as natural. It's all a matter of logic and definitions.
To illustrate this, here is the definition of nature from the 1828 edition of Webster's dictionary....
NATURE, n. [L. from nature, born, produced,]
1. In a general sense, whatever is made or produced; a word that comprehends all the works of God; the universe. Of a phoenix we say, there is no such thing in nature.
And look through nature up to natures God.
2. By a metonymy of the effect for the cause, nature is used for the agent, creator, author, producer of things, or for the powers that produce them. By the expression, trees and fossils are produced by nature, we mean, they are formed or produced by certain inherent powers in matter, or we mean that they are produced by God, the Creator, the Author of whatever is made or produced. The opinion that things are produced by inherent powers of matter, independent of a supreme intelligent author, is atheism. But generally men mean by nature, thus used, the Author of created things, or the operation of his power.
Now if you are honest enough to face this truth, then you will realize that it is all a matter of your logical paradigm which locks you into your conclusions about truth. If you will open your mind beyond the scientific paradigm, you will see that science has recognized many attributes of God and exchanged them for a lie. It is that simple.