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#21 Javabean

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Posted 08 August 2009 - 10:21 AM

Ah,clutching at straws with anti-history,eh?

A creationists is defined as anybody who believes in creation.FYI,christianity is'nt the only religion that believes in creation.


What sort of anti-history are you talking about? Are you suggesting that Creationists is not a relatively new term? What you are suggesting is similar to Mormons "mormonizing" dead people. "Hey this person was a Christian so they must take the Creation story literally, ergo they are a Creationist!"

I'm sorry but not every believer in every religion that has a creation myth takes that myth as literal truth. If they do not take it as literal truth they are not a Creationist.

And yes I know there are millions of Creation myths, but you seem to ignore the fact that the only Creation story that people here are pushing is the Christian one...which begs the question, why bring this fact up? Unless you are willing to admit that the Norse creation theory of a Giant space cow is as factual as God doing it?

Such as?
Pick a thread,any thread. :o

http://www.evolution...indpost&p=23507

http://www.evolution...indpost&p=29230

http://www.evolution...indpost&p=22656

http://www.evolution...indpost&p=36250
Enjoy.

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Thanks Jason for pointing me towards these threads...if there is a Scientific theory there I didn't see it. I just saw evidence that some people say supports creationism. If there is a specific post in them that states the theory of Creation in there could you copy and paste it here? That would be nice. Thanks!

#22 Arch

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Posted 08 August 2009 - 05:54 PM

An example would be nice.

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I gave you plenty of examples. You even quoted them:

evolution, big bang, star formation, old earth geology and many many others are all theories.


Since i already know your only playing games and trying to waste peoples time,i won't ask you to present these "non-theories" here or in the appropriate thread.

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Wow, what an incredibly presumptuous, pompous, untrue statement :lol:
There really isn't anything more to present. I could send you to almost any website, scientific article or book that will tell you these are all theories. Again, the writers may disagree with the theories, but at least they have the courtesy to acknowledge the work of great minds. How arrogant one must be to disregard the work and opinions of every scientist, living or dead.

Regards,

Arch.

#23 scott

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Posted 08 August 2009 - 07:34 PM

What sort of anti-history are you talking about?  Are you suggesting that Creationists is not a relatively new term?  What you are suggesting is similar to Mormons "mormonizing" dead people.  "Hey this person was a Christian so they must take the Creation story literally, ergo they are a Creationist!"

I'm sorry but not every believer in every religion that has a creation myth takes that myth as literal truth.  If they do not take it as literal truth they are not a Creationist.

And yes I know there are millions of Creation myths, but you seem to ignore the fact that the only Creation story that people here are pushing is the Christian one...which begs the question, why bring this fact up?  Unless you are willing to admit that the Norse creation theory of a Giant space cow is as factual as God doing it?
Thanks Jason for pointing me towards these threads...if there is a Scientific theory there I didn't see it.  I just saw evidence that some people say supports creationism.  If there is a specific post in them that states the theory of Creation in there could you copy and paste it here?  That would be nice.  Thanks!

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Oh please, what are you even talking about. Do you even know??? Probably not, because your saying exactly what Jason said. It's a no duh situation that if someone does not believe in creation, that they are not a creationist. Simple. Just Simple, now where did you figure through your strange reasoning that Jason did not understand that??? Come on.

The Norse creation theory is not a theory, it's a Norse story, that has little to no evidence supporting it or its own religion for that matter, just about any religion you could throw at us Christian Creationist, is easily disprovable, and such is why those creation myths are never discussed.

But yes, you atheist on the other hand do have a problem with Christianity, therefore attack those who believe in all of Gods Word, not just tiny bits and pieces such as the majority of like minded baboons do today.

Now, you have to realize that there is no Creation Theory, we don't call the Civil War a theory. We don't say lets discuss the theory of the Civil War... Lets discuss the theory of World War 2. It's history.

Now, all an atheist has to do is prove that the Creation Account, and all things throughout the Bible are NOT history, and not a part of this reality, just a large collection of some mumbling baboons writings from long ago that couldn't tell their right hand from their left hand.

You see, you must go about, to disprove a part of history. Evidence for the Flood? Evidence for Jesus Christ existance??? It's here, and readily available for you to see. You just have stop looking at pretty evolutionist textbook drawings, and go out and dig for it. I have, and it's time you did the same also.

#24 scott

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Posted 08 August 2009 - 07:37 PM

I gave you plenty of examples. You even quoted them:
Wow, what an incredibly presumptuous, pompous, untrue statement :lol:
There really isn't anything more to present. I could send you to almost any website, scientific article or book that will tell you these are all theories. Again, the writers may disagree with the theories, but at least they have the courtesy to acknowledge the work of great minds. How arrogant one must be to disregard the work and opinions of every scientist, living or dead.

Regards,

Arch.

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Well, the statement would be untrue, but unfortunately for you it's not. It's truth. All of the mentioned aren't theories... because drum role please.... they can't be tested.

Show that they can be tested, and proven true, as scientific fact, and then you can say his statement is untrue... but until then, the statement is true.

#25 Arch

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Posted 08 August 2009 - 07:44 PM

Well, the statement would be untrue, but unfortunately for you it's not.  It's truth.  All of the mentioned aren't theories... because drum role please.... they can't be tested.

Show that they can be tested, and proven true, as scientific fact, and then you can say his statement is untrue... but until then, the statement is true.

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Roflmao. So all the theories I listed can't be tested? Then where do Creationists get off telling us evolution is wrong? Obviously they've...tested it!

What about all the evidence out there for a young earth? You're trying to tell me the geology record can't be tested?

No Scott, you don't agree with the conclusions of the tests. But even you will agree that tests have been done. You will even agree with some of the conclusions, as long as they back up your world view. That means they can be called theories.

Regards,

Arch.

#26 scott

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Posted 08 August 2009 - 07:58 PM

Roflmao. So all the theories I listed can't be tested? Then where do Creationists get off telling us evolution is wrong? Obviously they've...tested it!

What about all the evidence out there for a young earth? You're trying to tell me the geology record can't be tested?

No Scott, you don't agree with the conclusions of the tests. But even you will agree that tests have been done. You will even agree with some of the conclusions, as long as they back up your world view. That means they can be called theories.

Regards,

Arch.

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No Arch, test haven't been done, and that's the funny part.

Edit, either that, or the test didn't prove anything as a fact, therefore they failed. So where is that ultimate test that proves Evolution huh? Or the Big Bang for that matter.

#27 Javabean

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Posted 08 August 2009 - 08:54 PM

Oh please, what are you even talking about.  Do you even know???  Probably not, because your saying exactly what Jason said.  It's a no duh situation that if someone does not believe in creation, that they are not a creationist.  Simple. Just Simple, now where did you figure through your strange reasoning that Jason did not understand that???  Come on.


Wow Scott what an attack against me. Such emotion <clap, clap> Scott I don't think you actually read Jason's post, and that is okay. What Jason suggested is that the Scientists he was referring to were in fact Creationists.

I was simply pointing out that he has no evidence that they were creationists, other than the fact that they were Christian(or what-ever religion Jason was suggesting that these Scientists came from. Do you have evidence to support that they were Creationists? Or simply religious?

The Norse creation theory is not a theory, it's a Norse story, that has little to no evidence supporting it or its own religion for that matter, just about any religion you could throw at us Christian Creationist, is easily disprovable, and such is why those creation myths are never discussed.


Please disprove it then. If it is so easy then you should be able to do it in 1 post.

But yes, you atheist on the other hand do have a problem with Christianity, therefore attack those who believe in all of Gods Word, not just tiny bits and pieces such as the majority of like minded baboons do today.


Actually Scott I have no issues with Christianity, nice try though! Some of my best friends are Christians and we all get along great. Heck I highly respect many of the Creationists on this board like Adam and Iksteer.

But you see Atheist under my name and instantly hate me. Why? Did I do anything to you? Are you just upset that i don't believe the way you do? Do you think I am here to simply cause trouble? I'm approximately 100 posts in now and so far the moderators do not see me as a threat to the stability of the site.

Now, you have to realize that there is no Creation Theory, we don't call the Civil War a theory.  We don't say lets discuss the theory of the Civil War... Lets discuss the theory of World War 2.  It's history.

Now, all an atheist has to do is prove that the Creation Account, and all things throughout the Bible are NOT history, and not a part of this reality, just a large collection of some mumbling baboons writings from long ago that couldn't tell their right hand from their left hand.

You see, you must go about, to disprove a part of history.  Evidence for the Flood?  Evidence for Jesus Christ existance???  It's here, and readily available for you to see.  You just have stop looking at pretty evolutionist textbook drawings, and go out and dig for it.  I have, and it's time you did the same also.

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Okay I can take it that you think that Genesis is a historical account of how everything was created and that is fine. Except that no one was around to witness the Creation of everything. It was explained to them by this divine being called God.

So is it really a historical account? Can you be certain that the Creation Story was not a parable? Of course you can be, but I'm not so certain.

Thanks for taking the time to respond to my post. Oh and I never have disparaged any characters from the bible.

#28 scott

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Posted 08 August 2009 - 09:29 PM

Indeed, such emotion, great giant leaps of emotion, anger and hate. Yes, everytime atheist bring up the... oh but what about the creation legend where 2 ducks flew around and created earth instantly. What about the one about the cow. Oooohhh or the jaguar... yes these are interesting stories, from history. But evidence for them is severely lacking. Even though the Jaguar still exist, I guess thats enough evidence to make that one plausible.

Well, I guess I'll step back and say, disprovable, not really, they are religions. With absolutely no substance.

Ok, you want to be convinced of Creation, right, or you just haven't seen the right evidence for it. So, what would you like to see evidence for? How God created everything in 6 days??? Well that is where we don't know. That is what we as creationist have faith in. Much like the South Americans had faith in the Jaguar, except our faith has actually stood the test of time.

I do not know how exactly God created in 6 days, but if the passages of Genesis are not metaphorical, then they must go along with the rest of the scripture. Such is why I take the Flood account very seriously, as a very real event, because of very real evidence that supports it.

The Flood in my opinion, is really the only thing that Creationist can use as a defense of a 6 day creation. Prove extinct animals such as dinosaurs co existed with man, and there you have it. Creation proven (in my opinion rock solid).

I personally like to go out, and fossil hunt. It's a hobby of mine, and for some time I did strive to become a paleontologist, but I'm still undecided. Besides, one of my favorite things to do, is to study evolution. Such is why I do not believe in evolution. If you want some answers, then you just have to ask the right questions.

So, what about the Flood do you question? I ask this because a 6 day creation by itself cannot be verified. Such is why Creation leans heavily on the Flood account. ( there may be more evidence besides the Flood account, but this is what I focus mainly upon).

Maybe this deserves a new thread. I'm interested in knowing what it is, that you want to know about the Flood, because I might just have some answers your looking for.

If my reply to you seemed like an attack, well I'm sorry if it offended you. I just tend to lump all atheist into one big bucket from past experiences. But I'm sure not all atheist share the same liberal ideology.

#29 Arch

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Posted 08 August 2009 - 09:46 PM

No Arch, test haven't been done, and that's the funny part. 

Edit, either that, or the test didn't prove anything as a fact, therefore they failed.  So where is that ultimate test that proves Evolution huh? Or the Big Bang for that matter.

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I'm going to assume you stand by your second statement there, and not your first because they contradict. In which case I return to my original statement...tests have been done, you just don't agree with the results. Just because you personally disagree with the results doesn't negate any of the theories I listed from being theories. Likewise I don't agree with creation, however I still consider it to be a theory.

I'm not debating whether or no the theories are correct, I'm simply stating the fact they are theories.

Regards,

Arch.

#30 Adam Nagy

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Posted 09 August 2009 - 05:25 AM

Likewise I don't agree with creation, however I still consider it to be a theory.

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That means that you believe creation has a legitimate seat at the round table of discussion regarding science and its inferences. Arch, getting more people to realize this fact alone is a step in the right direction. People who disagree with us but still have the guts to stand up and say that we have a legitimate place at the discussion, especially where origins is concerned, is at least taking off the blinders to consider other possibilities, the evidence for them and their implications rather than making artificial limits, that keep certain ideas from being considered in certain company (like in classrooms).

#31 Javabean

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Posted 09 August 2009 - 07:49 AM

Indeed, such emotion, great giant leaps of emotion, anger and hate.  Yes, everytime atheist bring up the... oh but what about the creation legend where 2 ducks flew around and created earth instantly.  What about the one about the cow.  Oooohhh or the jaguar... yes these are interesting stories, from history.  But evidence for them is severely lacking.  Even though the Jaguar still exist, I guess thats enough evidence to make that one plausible.

Well, I guess I'll step back and say, disprovable, not really, they are religions.  With absolutely no substance. 

Ok, you want to be convinced of Creation, right, or you just haven't seen the right evidence for it.  So, what would you like to see evidence for?  How God created everything in 6 days???  Well that is where we don't know.  That is what we as creationist have faith in.  Much like the South Americans had faith in the Jaguar, except our faith has actually stood the test of time.


I bolded the 2 points I feel necessary to respond to. Personally I would never want to change someone's faith. If this is what you have faith in then good for you. Seriously it takes a lot of strength to take an un-popular stand.

As far as a religion standing the test of time... Well let's put it this way. What if, and this is a big what if, what if the creator of the universe was the Jaguar? What if this creature sat back and let the world run on its own. What if his chosen people died out for what-ever reason. Does this mean that his religion was wrong? Or does it mean he simply let everything run its course? This is meant purely as a thought exercise, and not what I believe.


I do not know how exactly God created in 6 days, but if the passages of Genesis are not metaphorical, then they must go along with the rest of the scripture.  Such is why I take the Flood account very seriously, as a very real event, because of very real evidence that supports it.

The Flood in my opinion, is really the only thing that Creationist can use as a defense of a 6 day creation.  Prove extinct animals such as dinosaurs co existed with man, and there you have it.  Creation proven (in my opinion rock solid).

I personally like to go out, and fossil hunt.  It's a hobby of mine, and for some time I did strive to become a paleontologist, but I'm still undecided.  Besides, one of my favorite things to do, is to study evolution.  Such is why I do not believe in evolution.  If you want some answers, then you just have to ask the right questions.


Just a quick question here. Did your study of Evolution make you not believe in it, or did you decide that you didn't believe in it first? My only reason for asking this is if you decide to not believe in something before you study a topic, then it will skew the information you are gathering on the subject.



So, what about the Flood do you question?  I ask this because a 6 day creation by itself cannot be verified.  Such is why Creation leans heavily on the Flood account.  ( there may be more evidence besides the Flood account, but this is what I focus mainly upon).

Maybe this deserves a new thread.  I'm interested in knowing what it is, that you want to know about the Flood, because I might just have some answers your looking for.


I for one would be more than interested in a thread on this subject! I personally am un-aware of the evidence for a global flood, so it would be nice to learn about this subject.

If my reply to you seemed like an attack, well I'm sorry if it offended you.  I just tend to lump all atheist into one big bucket from past experiences.  But I'm sure not all atheist share the same liberal ideology.

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Don't worry about it Scott! :lol: I wasn't upset about it I just wanted you to take a second look at your post. So no worries! I completely understand your position. Just try to keep an open mind with people who don't believe as you do, I promise we aren't all jerks! :D

#32 Ron

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Posted 10 August 2009 - 01:40 PM

Because I have news for you not every Christian is a Creationist.

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I hate to burst your bubble Java, but all "Christians" are "Creationists". You may want to look up Jesus' definition of a follower of His, and not man's definition.

#33 Javabean

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Posted 10 August 2009 - 08:21 PM

I hate to burst your bubble Java, but all "Christians" are "Creationists". You may want to look up Jesus' definition of a follower of His, and not man's definition.

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Ron, as far as i know as Christian is a person who has let Jesus into their heart to be their personal lord and savior. He is the way o grace and salvation. And it is the responsibility of Christians to act with god in their hearts and in heir actions.

Am I right?

Assuming I am mostly right here then I will move onto my next statement.

In your opinion, if a Christian doesn't take the entire bible literally, such as the creation story, does this make them something other than a Christian? If it does then by your definition they aren't Christians. Which would be a different topic of discussion.

With all due respect, I will stand by my statement that not all Christians are Creationists. I personally don't have that restriction to defining what is Christian and what isn't.

#34 Ron

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Posted 11 August 2009 - 02:51 AM

Ron, as far as i know as Christian is a person who has let Jesus into their heart to be their personal lord and savior.  He is the way o grace and salvation.  And it is the responsibility of Christians to act with god in their hearts and in heir actions.

Am I right?

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Did you look up Jesus’ definition of a Christian Java? Did you some how think it was all that simple? I know you don’t like when I put the onus on you to do a little of your own leg work, but that’s how we learn. Besides, there’s a lot more to being a follower of Christ than saying “Jesus, come into my heart” then going on your merry way. That’s like saying “you know, I think Darwin was right!” then not looking further into his beliefs.

John Chapter 14 is a good place to start.

Assuming I am mostly right here then I will move onto my next statement.

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Assumption is the bane of many who would be thinkers Java; you shouldn’t make rash statements, and then try to brush them under the rug when you are called to answer for them. Or attempt to quickly move on as if it never happened.


In your opinion, if a Christian doesn't take the entire bible literally, such as the creation story, does this make them something other than a Christian?  If it does then by your definition they aren't Christians. Which would be a different topic of discussion.

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Again, I said Jesus’ opinion, not mine Java. Jesus is the one who made the following statement:

“For if you had believed Moses, you would have believed Me, for he wrote of Me.
But if you do not believe his writings, how shall you believe My Words?” John 5:46-47

And keep in mind, Moses is the one who wrote down that God created the world in Six days. And Jesus lends a lot of credence to the words of Moses in the above passage.

P.S. John the fifth chapter is another excellent place to find Jesus expounding on the definition of His followers.

Which would be a different topic of discussion.

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If you don’t want it discussed, don’t bring it up Java.

With all due respect, I will stand by my statement that not all Christians are Creationists.  I personally don't have that restriction to defining what is Christian and what isn't.

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You can stand by an incorrect statement all day Java, but that will never make that statement correct. You do have the responsibility to prove that your statement is correct when it’s authority have been put to task, regardless of your opinion of your responsibilities. Because, you in fact were the one who said”

Because I have news for you not every Christian is a Creationist.

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Again, I hate to burst your bubble Java.

#35 Javabean

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Posted 11 August 2009 - 05:57 AM

Did you look up Jesus’ definition of a Christian Java? Did you some how think it was all that simple? I know you don’t like when I put the onus on you to do a little of your own leg work, but that’s how we learn. Besides, there’s a lot more to being a follower of Christ than saying “Jesus, come into my heart” then going on your merry way. That’s like saying “you know, I think Darwin was right!” then not looking further into his beliefs.

John Chapter 14 is a good place to start.
Assumption is the bane of many who would be thinkers Java; you shouldn’t make rash statements, and then try to brush them under the rug when you are called to answer for them. Or attempt to quickly move on as if it never happened.
Again, I said Jesus’ opinion, not mine Java. Jesus is the one who made the following statement:

“For if you had believed Moses, you would have believed Me, for he wrote of Me.
But if you do not believe his writings, how shall you believe My Words?” John 5:46-47

And keep in mind, Moses is the one who wrote down that God created the world in Six days. And Jesus lends a lot of credence to the words of Moses in the above passage.


I stand corrected. Thank you Ron. This is a very good reason why a Christian needs to take the bible literally.

I get told 2 different things about what a Christian is. Obviously there is a lot too it in the Bible, such as what you have told me. But I am also told that one only needs to accept Jesus into their heart. Some of the people who have told me this are Fundamentalist Christians, so it can get confusing.

One explanation is correct, and I am going to take your word on it, because honestly it makes sense that there is more to it.


P.S. John the fifth chapter is another excellent place to find Jesus expounding on the definition of His followers.
If you don’t want it discussed, don’t bring it up Java.
You can stand by an incorrect statement all day Java, but that will never make that statement correct. You do have the responsibility to prove that your statement is correct when it’s authority have been put to task, regardless of your opinion of your responsibilities. Because, you in fact were the one who said”
Again, I hate to burst your bubble Java.

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It's not that I don't want it discussed. I just think there is a better topic for what makes a Christian a Christian. In fact I think Adam has one already asking Atheists what a Christian is.

As far as doing the necessary leg work when researching something I do apologize. It's not that I don't like doing the research, I tried with the Hebrew texts, but I honestly was overwhelmed by the shear amount of information I found, that I could only guess which was a good source. I also work 2 full time jobs, so free time for me is limited. If a few quick searches doesn't bring up the needed info then I get frustrated :). Obviously not your fault or your concern, but I thought it fair to mention.

#36 de_skudd

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Posted 11 August 2009 - 07:11 AM

I also work 2 full time jobs, so free time for me is limited.  If a few quick searches doesn't bring up the needed info then I get frustrated :).  Obviously not your fault or your concern, but I thought it fair to mention.

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Hello Javabean (I like that handle... Mostly because I enjoy a good cup of coffee :) )

I feel your pain, I've had to hold down two and three part-time jobs to make ends meet at times too. It would probably help if you presented it that way when you asked for the information. Not everyone knows your circumstances, and when you ask some of the questions you ask, and preface them the way you do, they can be taken many ways. Another good tip to remember is that some come here just to stir up trouble (I don't think this is the case with you) so please don't be offended if you are taken the wrong way.

I'll do my best to remember your situation, and I would ask anyone else who responds to your questions to do the same. :)

#37 Javabean

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Posted 11 August 2009 - 10:54 AM

Hello Javabean (I like that handle...  Mostly because I enjoy a good cup of coffee  ;)  )


Mmmm Coffee!!! Yeah I am a coffee addict. I need to get a grinder, and a french press, then my coffee enjoyment will go through the roof!


I feel your pain, I've had to hold down two and three part-time jobs to make ends meet at times too. It would probably help if you presented it that way when you asked for the information. Not everyone knows your circumstances, and when you ask some of the questions you ask, and preface them the way you do, they can be taken many ways. Another good tip to remember is that some come here just to stir up trouble (I don't think this is the case with you) so please don't be offended if you are taken the wrong way.


No worries there! :D I have a very good sense of humor, and I have the patients of a Saint! I grew up in a household with 2 Manic-Depressives, so I know a thing or two about letting things slide.

I think most of the people on this board realize that I'm not here to cause trouble, I may need to be a little less blunt than I am sometimes, but no one is perfect ;)

I'll do my best to remember your situation, and I would ask anyone else who responds to your questions to do the same.  :)

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I'm not asking for special treatment here, but I appreciate the thought! So thank you de_skudd

#38 jason777

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Posted 11 August 2009 - 02:51 PM

I was simply pointing out that he has no evidence that they were creationists, other than the fact that they were Christian(or what-ever religion Jason was suggesting that these Scientists came from. Do you have evidence to support that they were Creationists? Or simply religious?


Try reading the link in post #14

If you know none of those scientists were bible believing christians,then could you tell us where you came up with that?

There are very few on that list that did'nt believe in a literal interpretation of the bible,but none of them were evolutionists.




Thanks.

#39 Guest_Darkness45_*

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Posted 11 August 2009 - 04:31 PM

What makes a evolutionist feel the need to use a theory to fight a religion?

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Greetings to all,
To be honest I haven't seen too many people use the theory of evolution against religion in general, just the YEC model. I have seen people, like Dawkins, use science in general to dismiss God altogether. I think many atheists view religion as primitive, and feel science is a good way to show why they think that is. While I don't agree with them, I think I understand them.

#40 Ron

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Posted 12 August 2009 - 02:43 AM

I have seen people, like Dawkins, use science in general to dismiss God altogether.

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You may have seen people like Dawkins attempt to dismiss God. But all have failed miserably in those attempts. Their debates end up better theatrics than the informational dissertations they'd hoped for.




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