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My View Of The World.


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#1 Guest_Alcatraz_*

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Posted 14 August 2009 - 05:56 AM

Hi guys and gals,

I've not been on the board for a wee while due to a family emergency, and also the fact that I'm preparing for both a vacation to California and Nevada, and a work related trip to Kabul (Yes, THAT Kabul).

During my time away, I thought about various opinions I've read on this board, and as some people took some of my posts to heart, I thought I would clarify my views on this thread.

You may be interested, you may not, however this post is to clarify MY views and opinions so as not to cause offence in the future.

First off, whilst I may not agree with you, I will defend your right to believe whatever you believe. I'm totally againt the idea of trying to coerce or force another to change their opinion. However I'm always willing to share what I believe and compare it to, and ask questions about differences.

I'm Agnostic. To me being Agnostic is as honest as I can be. I cannot verify the existence of God, but neither can I deny Gods possible existence.

However, my outlook on life is that what is important is HOW I live my life.

I don't need a codified belief system to be a good and moral person. I learned to be that from my parents, grandparents, and extended family. A belief in (or in some cases, fear of) God has never had any bearing on how and why I treat others.

I believe in a common sense approach of treat people how I would want them to treat me.

I would like to believe that if there is a God, that that would be more important than bickering over the 'true' way to worship Him.

Calvanist and other Protestants argue with Evangelical Protestants who all argue with Catholics over what it means to be a Christian; Christians argue with Jews and Muslims, and vice-versa. Over what??

Would that energy not be better spent trying to improve the lives of those around us?

If there is a God, I sometimes wonder if he looks 'down' and wonders 'Why did I bother?'

#2 Mankind

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Posted 14 August 2009 - 10:29 AM

Hi, glad you are back, who are you by the way. :) While I agree that agnosticism is a more valid position than atheisim because there is no way to prove there is no God, I don't believe that one cannot verify the existence of God to themselves. If you try the Bible you will see that it works, that should be proof. When I say try the Bible I mean try it, get into it, do what it says, put your faith in who it says to put your faith in. I have seen many people come to realize it is true by trying it. I have seen the power of God through the working of the cross first hand, second hand and multiple hands removed.

When you say that you don't get your morals from God but from your parents, I think you need to follow that reasoning a little further back. Where did your parents get their morals from and so on up the line and I believe it will lead you to Adam and Eve in the garden. Everyone knows right from wrong because they were created in the image of God, not because naturalistic evolution teaches right and wrong.

If there were multiple ways to Heaven I don't believe God would have sacrificed his son on the cross. Jesus said you must be born again and from faith I believe he was raised bodily from the grave and the same force that raised him will raise Christians one day. I have my confirmations of truth by my faith as promised in the Bible.

#3 Guest_Darkness45_*

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Posted 14 August 2009 - 11:51 PM

Hi, glad you are back, who are you by the way.  :lol:  While I agree that agnosticism is a more valid position than atheisim because there is no way to prove there is no God, I don't believe that one cannot verify the existence of God to themselves.  If you try the Bible you will see that it works, that should be proof.  When I say try the Bible I mean try it, get into it, do what it says, put your faith in who it says to put your faith in.  I have seen many people come to realize it is true by trying it.  I have seen the power of God through the working of the cross first hand, second hand and multiple hands removed.

When you say that you don't get your morals from God but from your parents, I think you need to follow that reasoning a little further back.  Where did your parents get their morals from and so on up the line and I believe it will lead you to Adam and Eve in the garden.  Everyone knows right from wrong because they were created in the image of God, not because naturalistic evolution teaches right and wrong.

If there were multiple ways to Heaven I don't believe God would have sacrificed his son on the cross.  Jesus said you must be born again and from faith I believe he was raised bodily from the grave and the same force that raised him will raise Christians one day.  I have my confirmations of truth by my faith as promised in the Bible.

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I don't want to hijack this thread, so if it looks like we're getting off topic we might need to start a new thread. So down to business; not all atheists say that there is 100% proof that there is no God. Even Dawkins said that he is only 99.99% sure that there is no God.

I don't know where you think we get morals from, but I think we get them from two places; our environment and the innate ability to tell right from wrong given to us by God. Our environmental factor can be broken down several times into things like parents, experience, society ect. While I think we do have an instinctual construct of right and wrong, I think it can be altered by our environment and can change over time.

As to multiple ways to Heaven, I think it is an interesting question. Christianity is the largest religion in the world but only around a third of the world population describes themselves as Christians. The majority of people believe in their religion because of cultural and geographical reasons. Believe it or not if you grew up in India you would probably be Hindu and if you were born in the middle east you would probably be Muslim, and if this was a thousand years ago that probably turns into certainty. So would God automatically damn the vast majority of people to ever walk on the Earth because of where they lived when they never had a choice to begin with? When you are proposing a theology of an all-knowing, all-powerful, all-loving God infinite with wisdom and grace, it's not an easy selling point.

#4 ikester7579

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Posted 15 August 2009 - 02:42 PM

If there is a God, I sometimes wonder if he looks 'down' and wonders 'Why did I bother?'


Genesis 6:5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

And that is when God flooded the earth with water.

Genesis 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

10 And Noah begat three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth.

11 The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.

12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.

13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

#5 Ron

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Posted 15 August 2009 - 05:32 PM

If there is a God, I sometimes wonder if he looks 'down' and wonders 'Why did I bother?'


Genesis 6:5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

And that is when God flooded the earth with water.

Genesis 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

10 And Noah begat three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth.

11 The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.

12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.

13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

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Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall be the coming of the Son of Man.
38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day Noah entered into the ark.
39And they did not know until the flood came and took them all away. So also will be the coming of the Son of Man.

#6 Adam Nagy

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Posted 15 August 2009 - 06:30 PM

I would like to believe that if there is a God, that that would be more important than bickering over the 'true' way to worship Him

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I think it is more important to figure out if it is the true God that is being worshiped.

#7 ikester7579

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Posted 15 August 2009 - 10:43 PM

I think it is more important to figure out if it is the true God that is being worshiped.

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People who ask that question already know the answer. In most cases they are trying to justify their disbelief. Because if they were really that worried, that same question would be asked about every god. But only one is really questioned. All others are just accepted.

mt 12:26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?

mk 3:26 And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end.

lk 11:18 If Satan also be divided against himself, how shall his kingdom stand? because ye say that I cast out devils through Beelzebub.

The reason that those who do not believe in God attack the Christian God more, is because of the rule of spiritual warfare talk about in the verses above. Satan is not going to waste his time attacking himself (fake gods), because to what point would someone wage a war against themselves?

Example: When is the last time any non-believer ever went to a forum that supports Allah, or any other god as the creator, and debated with them like you g*ys debate here? And if so can you show us which forums, and threads, and posts you have posted? You cannot do it, and you know why?

Regardless of what you believe, there are spiritual laws of good and evil (Laws of conflict and war). You are abiding by one when you come here to debate against the Creator we believe in but yet refuse to debate any other Creator. Can you explain that?

I can. You have found the one true God, but prefer to deny and reject Him. It bothers you guys so much, you have to justify your disbelief on a everyday bases. Because if you truly believed there was no God, I doubt through that faith of actually believing that, you would not be wasting so much time fighting what you claim does not exist. That is why I call the atheism belief a oxymoronic belief. It's not because I belief these people are stupid. It's because I see very little faith, and more justification. Which means what you believe actually has a problem that is being ignored.

Besides, it is kinda funny to be mad at something you cannot even see. Much less claim it even exists.

#8 Mankind

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Posted 17 August 2009 - 06:50 AM

I don't want to hijack this thread, so if it looks like we're getting off topic we might need to start a new thread. So down to business; not all atheists say that there is 100% proof that there is no God. Even Dawkins said that he is only 99.99% sure that there is no God.

I don't know where you think we get morals from, but I think we get them from two places; our environment and the innate ability to tell right from wrong given to us by God. Our environmental factor can be broken down several times into things like parents, experience, society ect. While I think we do have an instinctual construct of right and wrong, I think it can be altered by our environment and can change over time.

As to multiple ways to Heaven, I think it is an interesting question. Christianity is the largest religion in the world but only around a third of the world population describes themselves as Christians. The majority of people believe in their religion because of cultural and geographical reasons. Believe it or not if you grew up in India you would probably be Hindu and if you were born in the middle east you would probably be Muslim, and if this was a thousand years ago that probably turns into certainty. So would God automatically damn the vast majority of people to ever walk on the Earth because of where they lived when they never had a choice to begin with? When you are proposing a theology of an all-knowing, all-powerful, all-loving God infinite with wisdom and grace, it's not an easy selling point.

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Let me suggest that a Christian should not get their morals from their environment, but from the Bible and the Holy Spirit. That way our morals never change, like God never changes.

Yes if I grew up in the Middle East I would probably be a Muslim until or if I got born again. I don’t understand why who gets chosen for salvation except that this world is all for God’s glory. It is written that those that will be saved are predestined to be conformed to his likeness. From that I can determine that everyone is not chosen to get saved because they are against the cross or against God’s son, And that was determined before the foundation of the world was laid. However God’s mercies extend forever so I believe in different levels of punishment just like I believe in different levels of reward. We can rest assured that God’s justice is perfect in the after life.

#9 Guest_Darkness45_*

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Posted 17 August 2009 - 07:29 AM

Let me suggest that a Christian should not get their morals from their environment, but from the Bible and the Holy Spirit.  That way our morals never change, like God never changes.


I say that getting your morals from the Bible would be environmental because it doesn't come as an innate understanding/instinct that you are born with. However, I think that certain things, like murder and stealing, are known to be immoral to all cultures across the world because all of us have a connection to the holy spirit from the time we are born. God doesn't express favoritism and is God of all the Earth, so I see it as everyone has an instinctual moral law that everyone is born with through the power of the holy spirit.

I think that God's morals never change as well, because he is the same God today as yesterday and will be tomorrow. So as we should look to God for perfect morality, but how we express that morality can drastically change based on circumstances. For example (and I know this is drastic); imagine that it is 1942 and you are living in Germany with a family of Jews staying in your basement. If the SS soldiers came to your door and asked if you had any Jews in your house, would you say to yourself 'hey, the 10 commandments say that I must not lie because it is immoral, so I'll tell them that I do'? Most of us, and I'm assuming you as well, would not think like this. I think examples like these show that God has a set of morals that we should obey, but not necessarily specific rules that cannot be broken. Don't get me wrong, I think specific rules are necessary to convey the essence of any morality, but I see it as not the rules that dictate the morality, but the concepts themselves that govern it.

Yes if I grew up in the Middle East I would probably be a Muslim until or if I got born again.  I don’t understand why who gets chosen for salvation except that this world is all for God’s glory.  It is written that those that will be saved are predestined to be conformed to his likeness.  From that I can determine that everyone is not chosen to get saved because they are against the cross or against God’s son, And that was determined before the foundation of the world was laid.  However God’s mercies extend forever so I believe in different levels of punishment just like I believe in different levels of reward.  We can rest assured that God’s justice is perfect in the after life.

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I agree that God is a just God and will judge people fairly. I like to constantly remind myself that it is not my place, or anyone's place but God to judge people. I am very relieved at this fact; knowing that God, who knows all, is fair, and full of mercy and grace beyond measure will judge everyone, and not humans. Your predestination of salvation idea reminds me of Calvinism, so I have to ask, are you a Calvinist?

#10 Mankind

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Posted 17 August 2009 - 10:11 AM

I say that getting your morals from the Bible would be environmental because it doesn't come as an innate understanding/instinct that you are born with. However, I think that certain things, like murder and stealing, are known to be immoral to all cultures across the world because all of us have a connection to the holy spirit from the time we are born. God doesn't express favoritism and is God of all the Earth, so I see it as everyone has an instinctual moral law that everyone is born with through the power of the holy spirit.

I think that God's morals never change as well, because he is the same God today as yesterday and will be tomorrow. So as we should look to God for perfect morality, but how we express that morality can drastically change based on circumstances. For example (and I know this is drastic); imagine that it is 1942 and you are living in Germany with a family of Jews staying in your basement. If the SS soldiers came to your door and asked if you had any Jews in your house, would you say to yourself 'hey, the 10 commandments say that I must not lie because it is immoral, so I'll tell them that I do'? Most of us, and I'm assuming you as well, would not think like this. I think examples like these show that God has a set of morals that we should obey, but not necessarily specific rules that cannot be broken. Don't get me wrong, I think specific rules are necessary to convey the essence of any morality, but I see it as not the rules that dictate the morality, but the concepts themselves that govern it. 
I agree that God is a just God and will judge people fairly. I like to constantly remind myself that it is not my place, or anyone's place but God to judge people. I am very relieved at this fact; knowing that God, who knows all, is fair, and full of mercy and grace beyond measure will judge everyone, and not humans. Your predestination of salvation idea reminds me of Calvinism, so I have to ask, are you a Calvinist?

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I disagree that if we get our morals from the Bible then that is the same as getting them from our environment. For example, thou shalt not murder, there could be an environment that says it is okay to murder certain people, say Jews for example, that would go against the Bible. Maybe you can explain your answer a little clearer if I am not understanding it.

I don't consider myself a Calvinist or a Paulist or a follower of any person except Jesus. Predestination is Biblical, I don't see anyway around it, however that doesn't mean we don't have a choice to believe in Jesus and repent. I accept that there are things that God can understand that I cannot.

#11 Guest_Darkness45_*

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Posted 18 August 2009 - 01:42 AM

I disagree that if we get our morals from the Bible then that is the same as getting them from our environment.  For example, thou shalt not murder, there could be an environment that says it is okay to murder certain people, say Jews for example, that would go against the Bible.  Maybe you can explain your answer a little clearer if I am not understanding it.

I don't consider myself a Calvinist or a Paulist or a follower of any person except Jesus.  Predestination is Biblical, I don't see anyway around it, however that doesn't mean we don't have a choice to believe in Jesus and repent.  I accept that there are things that God can understand that I cannot.

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I'll try to re-word my position here. I am basing this off of the psychology/sociology nature vs. nurture argument, and environment is the nurture side if that helps at all. I see us getting our morals from two places. The first one is what we are born with (nature), things that we know from the beginning that are right and wrong with out anyone telling us. I see the first one as ruffly the same for everyone because I feel it is guided by the holy spirit.

Now everything that doesn't come from that comes from the person's environment (nurture). A person's environment are things like where they live, what time period, what culture are they brought up in, what economic class, what social class ect. But it also includes things like their experiences, what they have read, what they have been taught ect. Since you read the Bible as a product of your environment, your getting morals form the Bible is an environmental factor. Now everyone has a different environment, your environment may tell you that murder is wrong, but someone else might have an environment (like Nazi Germany) that says murdering Jews is okay. While both are different, both are influenced by their environment as their environment is different. I don't think that was the best explanation in the world, but I hope it clarifies it anyway.

#12 Adam Nagy

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Posted 18 August 2009 - 05:59 AM

Hey Darkness45,

What you said made me think of this seminar:

http://bethinking.or...ski-playingdumb

I thought it was pretty interesting and it speaks to this general discussion.

#13 Mankind

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Posted 18 August 2009 - 07:54 AM

I'll try to re-word my position here. I am basing this off of the psychology/sociology nature vs. nurture argument, and environment is the nurture side if that helps at all. I see us getting our morals from two places. The first one is what we are born with (nature), things that we know from the beginning that are right and wrong with out anyone telling us. I see the first one as ruffly the same for everyone because I feel it is guided by the holy spirit.

Now everything that doesn't come from that comes from the person's environment (nurture). A person's environment are things like where they live, what time period, what culture are they brought up in, what economic class, what social class ect. But it also includes things like their experiences, what they have read, what they have been taught ect. Since you read the Bible as a product of your environment, your getting morals form the Bible is an environmental factor. Now everyone has a different environment, your environment may tell you that murder is wrong, but someone else might have an environment (like Nazi Germany) that says murdering Jews is okay. While both are different, both are influenced by their environment as their environment is different. I don't think that was the best explanation in the world, but I hope it clarifies it anyway.

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I think that clarifies it some. However a Christian already believes in the Bible so they should get their morals from there no matter how they grew up or which country they live in. They are new creatures in Christ and now they hate evil, or should, as outlined in the Bible.

#14 Guest_Darkness45_*

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Posted 19 August 2009 - 09:57 AM

I think that clarifies it some.  However a Christian already believes in the Bible so they should get their morals from there no matter how they grew up or which country they live in.  They are new creatures in Christ and now they hate evil, or should, as outlined in the Bible.

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I agree, and a lot of what Jesus said was general as well as specific, and I think it plays into the idea that we should have a set of morals that guide us so we can apply those morals to any situation whether it is specifically referenced in the Bible or not. We can apply these things differently with in our own culture while retaining the essence of love and compassion as dictated in the Bible.




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