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The Standard Or Reference For Creationism


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#1 b00tleg

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Posted 17 August 2009 - 10:17 AM

Hi, just a quick question I thought of and wanted a confirmation on. Hey Adam, I'm learning....I hope :D This question is for all Creationists. All Creationists view the bible as the inerrant literal word of god. Am I then correct in my understanding that Creationists hold the bible as the standard/reference point by which to determine the correct view of reality? And that the bible is correct, and any/all sciences are contrary to the bible?

Thanks in advance for your answers!

#2 Javabean

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Posted 17 August 2009 - 10:41 AM

Hi, just a quick question I thought of and wanted a confirmation on. Hey Adam, I'm learning....I hope  :D This question is for all Creationists. All Creationists view the bible as the inerrant literal word of god. Am I then correct in my understanding that Creationists hold the bible as the standard/reference point by which to determine the correct view of reality? And that the bible is correct, and any/all sciences are contrary to the bible?

Thanks in advance for your answers!

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Well I'm no Creationist, but I would say that if science agrees with the Bible, then it wouldn't be a problem for Creationists.

#3 Adam Nagy

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Posted 17 August 2009 - 11:32 AM

Hi, just a quick question I thought of and wanted a confirmation on. Hey Adam, I'm learning....I hope  :D This question is for all Creationists. All Creationists view the bible as the inerrant literal word of god. Am I then correct in my understanding that Creationists hold the bible as the standard/reference point by which to determine the correct view of reality? And that the bible is correct, and any/all sciences are contrary to the bible?

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Hi b00tleg,

I think you raise a very important question and it is very relevant to this discussion. I'm actually going to rephrase it for you and I actually believe that you'll find my rewording more appealing then what you said but I'll let you decide:

Can a Christians view of what scripture means change based on scientific inquiry and can a Christian's adherence to the Bible be severed by scientific knowledge?

I believe that question puts a Christian more out on an intellectual limb than what you asked, don't you?

I'll be the first to acknowledge that I for one agree that a Christian who claims faith in Christ is only telling the truth of their conviction if they first seek God's council in His Word. I also believe there are many who refuse to contend with the core charges of scripture but claim to be Christians due to cultural/convenience reasons. The Bible would call these people; lukewarm believers who will be spewed out of His mouth.

Also, I believe this question is a little more dynamic then what is sometimes purported by fundamentalist Christians, like myself. It's not that our adherence to scripture is miscommunicated, it is just, often misunderstood.

So, do you accept the rewording as cutting more directly at the matter?

#4 de_skudd

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Posted 17 August 2009 - 12:33 PM

Am I then correct in my understanding that Creationists hold the bible as the standard/reference point by which to determine the correct view of reality? And that the bible is correct, and any/all sciences are contrary to the bible?

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No, but I wonder where you get this idea? :D

Sciences aren’t contrary to the Bible, just some misinterpretations of findings are.

#5 Adam Nagy

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Posted 17 August 2009 - 12:54 PM

No, but I wonder where you get this idea?  :D

Sciences aren’t contrary to the Bible, just some misinterpretations of findings are.

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I just realized what b00tleg implied in that statement. Well, I guess the question is; What science, that is demonstrated through the scientific method, must we reject to be biblical Christians?

#6 b00tleg

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Posted 17 August 2009 - 04:08 PM

Hi b00tleg,

I think you raise a very important question and it is very relevant to this discussion. I'm actually going to rephrase it for you and I actually believe that you'll find my rewording more appealing then what you said but I'll let you decide:

Can a Christians view of what scripture means change based on scientific inquiry and can a Christian's adherence to the Bible be severed by scientific knowledge?

I believe that question puts a Christian more out on an intellectual limb than what you asked, don't you?

I'll be the first to acknowledge that I for one agree that a Christian who claims faith in Christ is only telling the truth of their conviction if they first seek God's council in His Word. I also believe there are many who refuse to contend with the core charges of scripture but claim to be Christians due to cultural/convenience reasons. The Bible would call these people; lukewarm believers who will be spewed out of His mouth.

Also, I believe this question is a little more dynamic then what is sometimes purported by fundamentalist Christians, like myself. It's not that our adherence to scripture is miscommunicated, it is just, often misunderstood.

So, do you accept the rewording as cutting more directly at the matter?

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Hi again. The rewording of the question changes what I'm asking, so let me try to clarify it. And after re-reading my own question, I realize I could have phrased it better. When it comes to issues of science, not faith necessarily, should a Creationist refer to the bible first, and should a Creationist expect to find an answer in the bible before referring to other sources?

I apologize for not stating my question more simply.

Now, as to the rewording of the question.

Can a Christians view of what scripture means change based on scientific inquiry and can a Christian's adherence to the Bible be severed by scientific knowledge?


Is the interpretation of scripture flexible enough to account for information that scientific inquiry may produce and may not be found in the bible? As to the latter half of the question, I'd answer that by saying its up to the individual if they become swayed one way or the other.

So to answer your last question Adam. I'd like to stick with my original question, but use the rewording I provided here in this post as I think it better clarifies what I was trying to ask. I am open to discussing your rewording of my question as a related semi-seperate issue.

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Posted 18 August 2009 - 01:57 AM

I'll be the first to acknowledge that I for one agree that a Christian who claims faith in Christ is only telling the truth of their conviction if they first seek God's council in His Word. I also believe there are many who refuse to contend with the core charges of scripture but claim to be Christians due to cultural/convenience reasons. The Bible would call these people; lukewarm believers who will be spewed out of His mouth.

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Don't you just love Revelation quotes. I hope you're not implying that everyone who isn't a creationist is lukewarm, destroying Christian reputation, and should be cold as they are more pleasing to the Lord than the half committed lukewarm.

#8 de_skudd

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Posted 18 August 2009 - 04:46 AM

I just realized what b00tleg implied in that statement. Well, I guess the question is; What science, that is demonstrated through the scientific method, must we reject to be biblical Christians?

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None, and that's the point. But, we are fully capable of rejecting ALL the hypothetical models, because they aren’t of the scientific method, but more that of unfinished thoughts.

#9 de_skudd

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Posted 18 August 2009 - 04:50 AM

Don't you just love Revelation quotes. I hope you're not implying that everyone who isn't a creationist is lukewarm, destroying Christian reputation, and should be cold as they are more pleasing to the Lord than the half committed lukewarm.

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That would no only be wrong, but it would also be a mischaracterization. Anyone who doesn’t fully follow the teachings of Jesus with their whole heart (or follow hard after the Lord), would be considered lukewarm. I’m sure there are many who consider themselves Creationists, may fall into this category. But, anyone who claims to be “Christian” and doesn’t believe the words of Jesus, and follow them, do fit the description of lukewarm.

Becides, neither you nor I can destroy another Christian's reputation. Only they can.

#10 Javabean

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Posted 18 August 2009 - 07:35 AM

That would no only be wrong, but it would also be a mischaracterization. Anyone who doesn’t fully follow the teachings of Jesus with their whole heart (or follow hard after the Lord), would be considered lukewarm. I’m sure there are many who consider themselves Creationists, may fall into this category. But, anyone who claims to be “Christian” and doesn’t believe the words of Jesus, and follow them, do fit the description of lukewarm.

Becides, neither you nor I can destroy another Christian's reputation. Only they can.

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Ah here is an interesting point you just made de_skudd ( I usually find them in your posts :blink: )

Here is the issue that I see with this one. While I agree that a persons reputation is their own to destroy or build, there is an entire social aspect that you are ignoring. A person's reputation is based on not only their actions, but any and all social aspects that apply to them. Such as skin color, religion, education and wealth.

Let me put it to you this way. If a well respected and well to do Black man moves up into a wealthy mostly white neighborhood, what do you think his reception will be? Is it fair that until people learn who he is and what he is about that he will probably receive a cold reception because of his skin color?

Or how about this. I was friends with a lot of people of different faiths and religions when I was a college student. When I disclosed that I was a Christian to my non-Christian friends I would often get a cold glance. You do know why don't you? Its because 'Christians' in general have a tendency of not understanding other faiths and go about telling these people that they are going to Hell for their beliefs.

Ah yes you'll say you are only trying to save them from going to hell, but that is no reason to be a jerk about it. And unfortunately that is the side of Christianity a lot of non-Christians see.

Are these social aspects long-lasting? Usually not, but until someone takes time to learn about the individual then the social aspects apply to that persons reputation.

#11 de_skudd

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Posted 18 August 2009 - 09:07 AM

Ah here is an interesting point you just made de_skudd ( I usually find them in your posts :) )

Here is the issue that I see with this one.  While I agree that a persons reputation is their own to destroy or build, there is an entire social aspect that you are ignoring.  A person's reputation is based on not only their actions, but any and all social aspects that apply to them.  Such as skin color, religion, education and wealth.

Let me put it to you this way.  If a well respected and well to do Black man moves up into a wealthy mostly white neighborhood, what do you think his reception will be?  Is it fair that until people learn who he is and what he is about that he will probably receive a cold reception because of his skin color? 

Or how about this.  I was friends with a lot of people of different faiths and religions when I was a college student.  When I disclosed that I was a Christian to my non-Christian friends I would often get a cold glance.  You do know why don't you?  Its because 'Christians' in general have a tendency of not understanding other faiths and go about telling these people that they are going to Hell for their beliefs. 

Ah yes you'll say you are only trying to save them from going to hell, but that is no reason to be a jerk about it.  And unfortunately that is the side of Christianity a lot of non-Christians see.

Are these social aspects long-lasting?  Usually not, but until someone takes time to learn about the individual then the social aspects apply to that persons reputation.

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I’m not ignoring the aspect you are bringing up Javabean, I was speaking totally from a Christian’s theological (and therefore eternal) aspect. I realize that while trapped in this temporal existence, mans perception can be the rule. Some people are stuck with the “perception is reality, therefore perception is truth” fallacy.

But again, I was responding to Darkness45’s assertion concerning the Christian and it’s applicability to the lukewarm(ness) as spoken about in Revelations. Which is a totally different issue altogether.

Now, as far as you experience with Christians analogy above; I can replace that tag with Atheist, Buddhist, Moslem, Taoist, Agnostic or any other world view in general, and come up with the same result. Most people don’t look beyond their worldview and the perceptions contained therein. Therefore making a prejudicial and broad “all encompassing” statement about Christians like that is ignoring the fact that its more fair to say that statement covers all world views in general.

And I don’t believe I was being a jerk :)

#12 Javabean

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Posted 18 August 2009 - 09:38 AM

I’m not ignoring the aspect you are bringing up Javabean, I was speaking totally from a Christian’s theological (and therefore eternal) aspect. I realize that while trapped in this temporal existence, mans perception can be the rule. Some people are stuck with the “perception is reality, therefore perception is truth” fallacy.

But again, I was responding to Darkness45’s assertion concerning the Christian and it’s applicability to the lukewarm(ness) as spoken about in Revelations. Which is a totally different issue altogether.

Now, as far as you experience with Christians analogy above; I can replace that tag with Atheist, Buddhist, Moslem, Taoist, Agnostic or any other world view in general, and come up with the same result. Most people don’t look beyond their worldview and the perceptions contained therein. Therefore making a prejudicial and broad “all encompassing” statement about Christians like that is ignoring the fact that its more fair to say that statement covers all world views in general.

And I don’t believe I was being a jerk    :)

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:)

de_skudd I would never accuse you of being a jerk!

Okay i see where you were going with you previous statements now.

And I do agree with the rest of your post here also. It applies all around. It doesn't matter what religion or social region you come from. Part of a persons reputation will be based on that. It's unfortunate but true.

And I do apologize if i seemed like I was picking on Christians there. I used them as a reference based on my own experiences. I personally was never one to tell people that they were destined for hell. Maybe I was lukewarm for that...but maybe not. Either way I personally had to fight that part of my reputation to show that I was more than my chosen religion.

I always felt that there was more than 1 Deity out there, and probably more than 1 afterlife. Part of my reasons for believing as such came from the bible's line of "thou shalt not have any Gods before me!" or how-ever it is read...lol too lazy right now to look up exact scripture.

#13 de_skudd

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Posted 18 August 2009 - 10:11 AM

:)

de_skudd I would never accuse you of being a jerk!

Okay i see where you were going with you previous statements now.

And I do agree with the rest of your post here also.  It applies all around.  It doesn't matter what religion or social region you come from.  Part of a persons reputation will be based on that.  It's unfortunate but true.

And I do apologize if i seemed like I was picking on Christians there.  I used them as a reference based on my own experiences.  I personally was never one to tell people that they were destined for hell.  Maybe I was lukewarm for that...but maybe not.  Either way I personally had to fight that part of my reputation to show that I was more than my chosen religion.

I always felt that there was more than 1 Deity out there, and probably more than 1 afterlife.  Part of my reasons for believing as such came from the bible's line of "thou shalt not have any Gods before me!"  or how-ever it is read...lol too lazy right now to look up exact scripture.

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You see Javabean, that's the whole thing. Christians don't tell people they're going to Hell, the Bible (or more importantly Jesus) did. Just like God doesn't send people to hell, they send themselves (by their actions and beliefs).

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Posted 18 August 2009 - 10:30 AM

That would no only be wrong, but it would also be a mischaracterization. Anyone who doesn’t fully follow the teachings of Jesus with their whole heart (or follow hard after the Lord), would be considered lukewarm. I’m sure there are many who consider themselves Creationists, may fall into this category. But, anyone who claims to be “Christian” and doesn’t believe the words of Jesus, and follow them, do fit the description of lukewarm.


Perhaps I'm reading too much into the creation/evolution aspect of this thread. I agree with the statement that anyone who claims to be "Christian" and doesn't follow Jesus, or is hesitant ect., is lukewarm. Just in the context of this thread I saw Adam's post to be saying that if you were a theistic evolutionist you couldn't be hot and must be lukewarm. If this is all a misunderstanding between Adam and me I'll laugh and hit myself over the head.

Becides, neither you nor I can destroy another Christian's reputation. Only they can.

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I was thinking more along the lines of Javabean, but in the context of one's reputation to God I completely agree with you.

#15 AFJ

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Posted 19 August 2009 - 06:02 PM

Creationists hold the bible as the standard/reference point by which to determine the correct view of reality? And that the bible is correct, and any/all sciences are contrary to the bible?

Thanks in advance for your answers!

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I'm creationist and Christian, believe the Bible is a compiling of writings by tested prophets, and apostles. I will not deviate into details, but that is the jist.

I'm not sure of your question--are you asking are all sciences contrary to the Bible? Of course not. Please understand that no Christian should have a problem with science, except on the evolutionary interpretation of our ORIGIN.

There are hundreds maybe thousands of things you can study in science without bringing origin into it.

I think it's just that the origin question is on everyone's mind. If you go to the bookstore evolution and Darwin are all over the science section, and you might find one small book on microbiology. Evolution, primodial volcanoes, cave men and dinosaurs sell.

#16 Javabean

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Posted 19 August 2009 - 07:13 PM

You see Javabean, that's the whole thing. Christians don't tell people they're going to Hell, the Bible (or more importantly Jesus) did. Just like God doesn't send people to hell, they send themselves (by their actions and beliefs).

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de_skudd,

I'm going to agree with you here, completely in fact.

If you don't mind I'm going to ask you favor. I know you are a well educated person, so I m assuming you know a lot of people from different religions (obviously more education opens your horizons)

Ask some of your non-Christian friends if they were ever told this by another Christian. That they were going to Hell if they didn't believe in God. Ask them how they felt, and what they thought of the person saying these things.

I think you might be surprised to their answers. Plus its always good to get to know your friends better.

And yeah I know you are a busy guy, so if you don't want to do this little experiment its cool not to. :P

#17 ikester7579

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Posted 20 August 2009 - 12:14 AM

Hi, just a quick question I thought of and wanted a confirmation on. Hey Adam, I'm learning....I hope  :blink: This question is for all Creationists. All Creationists view the bible as the inerrant literal word of god. Am I then correct in my understanding that Creationists hold the bible as the standard/reference point by which to determine the correct view of reality? And that the bible is correct, and any/all sciences are contrary to the bible?

Thanks in advance for your answers!

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You would first have to understand the types of creationists there are:
1) Atheist source:
http://atheism.about...q_cre_types.htm
2) Creationist source:
http://creationwiki.org/Creationism

This forum is mainly based on YEC which is a leteral belief in God's word and creation just how it is explained.

#18 de_skudd

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Posted 20 August 2009 - 05:06 AM

de_skudd,

I'm going to agree with you here, completely in fact.

If you don't mind I'm going to ask you favor.  I know you are a well educated person, so I m assuming you know a lot of people from different religions (obviously more education opens your horizons) 

Ask some of your non-Christian friends if they were ever told this by another Christian.  That they were going to Hell if they didn't believe in God.  Ask them how they felt, and what they thought of the person saying these things.

I think you might be surprised to their answers.  Plus its always good to get to know your friends better.

And yeah I know you are a busy guy, so if you don't want to do this little experiment its cool not to. :blink:

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Javabean,

I am no more educated than anyone else here. In fact, the proof of education, according to worldly standards, is a piece of paper (hardly substantive). I know people far wiser than I, who have had no formal (higher) education than I. Another member of this forum attempted to twist an earlier post of mine that was similar to this, and make it seem as if I was trying to use it to say you have no opinion, if you have no education. Which is as far from the truth as you can get, and not what my post said.

Now, I’ll repeat something that was said earlier, and bears further examination. God doesn’t send you to hell, you send yourself. And it doesn’t matter how we feel when we are told the alternatives, the truth is the truth. I didn’t like it when I was an atheist, and told I was going to hell. But that didn’t alter the truth of it.

I interact with believer and non believers every day. I can already tell you what you want to know about it. And cool has nothing to do with it.

#19 Javabean

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Posted 20 August 2009 - 06:34 AM

Javabean,

I am no more educated than anyone else here. In fact, the proof of education, according to worldly standards, is a piece of paper (hardly substantive). I know people far wiser than I, who have had no formal (higher) education than I. Another member of this forum attempted to twist an earlier post of mine that was similar to this, and make it seem as if I was trying to use it to say you have no opinion, if you have no education. Which is as far from the truth as you can get, and not what my post said.

Now, I’ll repeat something that was said earlier, and bears further examination. God doesn’t send you to hell, you send yourself. And it doesn’t matter how we feel when we are told the alternatives, the truth is the truth.  I didn’t like it when I was an atheist, and told I was going to hell. But that didn’t alter the truth of it.

I interact with believer and non believers every day. I can already tell you what you want to know about it. And cool has nothing to do with it.

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:blink: de_skudd, I'm not using your education against you here! having a higher education is a good thing. And yeah I followed that exchange between you and the other member, which is why I know you do have a higher education. Don't worry I promise to not use it against you, or to bring it up past this point. :huh:

And yes I do understand that it is by our own actions that we are sent to Hell according to the Christian faith. And your right it really doesn't matter how people feel about that knowledge.

I guess I was just trying to get you to see that this behavior , a Christian telling a non-Christian is going to hell, matters to them if it is coming from the bible, or from the person telling them so.




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