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#1 Adam Nagy

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Posted 26 August 2009 - 08:20 AM

Solipsism is an interesting (and kind of sad) belief that falls out of somebody's thinking as they contemplate their own existence minus an anchor outside of themselves.

I would like to see some of our newer members give their feelings on this philosophy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solipsism

#2 de_skudd

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Posted 26 August 2009 - 08:48 AM

Solipsism is an interesting (and kind of sad) belief that falls out of somebody's thinking as they contemplate their own existence minus an anchor outside of themselves.

I would like to see some of our newer members give their feelings on this philosophy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solipsism

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Okay, here's a question: Why does the Solipsist look both ways before crossing the street?

#3 Adam Nagy

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Posted 26 August 2009 - 09:03 AM

Okay, here's a question: Why does the Solipsist look both ways before crossing the street?

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To look for imaginary traffic and to get to the other side which doesn't exist? :lol:

#4 de_skudd

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Posted 26 August 2009 - 09:07 AM

To look for imaginary traffic and to get to the other side which doesn't exist? :lol:

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But they still wouldn't have to look since the traffic doesn't exsist.

#5 CTD

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Posted 26 August 2009 - 09:10 AM

I'll save you the trouble, Dee.

I never thought of anything so stupid on my own. I lack the capacity. Therefore someone else must exist to suggest it.

Not only do I lack the capacity, so does everyone else, based on natural ability. It takes work - serious effort - to get stupid enough to think up junk like this. Nobody who ever lived was born with sufficient natural "talent".

#6 Adam Nagy

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Posted 26 August 2009 - 09:20 AM

I'll save you the trouble, Dee.

I never thought of anything so stupid on my own. I lack the capacity. Therefore someone else must exist to suggest it.

Not only do I lack the capacity, so does everyone else, based on natural ability. It takes work - serious effort - to get stupid enough to think up junk like this. Nobody who ever lived was born with sufficient natural "talent".

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Hold on a second. Let's set the stage and solipsism will fall out naturally. Let's say all the atheist's leanings philosophically were fulfilled.

Instead of believing that there may be no creator, they stand fast that there is no creator.

What are the implications:

You're a short fluke in a sea of time.

You can't think anybody else thoughts except your own.

All external things are perceived and not known

You aren't sure about anything.

All future events are unknown and all past events are only memories.

When you die reality ends for all intents and purposes.

Ergo solipsism is quite logical for the person that ponders the implications of thinking that the 'probable truth' that all things are purely naturalistic is actually true. :lol:

#7 de_skudd

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Posted 26 August 2009 - 10:37 AM

I'll save you the trouble, Dee.

I never thought of anything so stupid on my own. I lack the capacity. Therefore someone else must exist to suggest it.

Not only do I lack the capacity, so does everyone else, based on natural ability. It takes work - serious effort - to get stupid enough to think up junk like this. Nobody who ever lived was born with sufficient natural "talent".

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Is that the "I think, therefore you ain't" brand of logic?

#8 CTD

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Posted 26 August 2009 - 10:51 AM

Hold on a second. Let's set the stage and solipsism will fall out naturally. Let's say all the atheist's leanings philosophically were fulfilled.

Instead of believing that there may be no creator, they stand fast that there is no creator.

What are the implications:

You're a short fluke in a sea of time.

You can't think anybody else thoughts except your own.

All external things are perceived and not known

You aren't sure about anything.

All future events are unknown and all past events are only memories.

When you die reality ends for all intents and purposes.

Ergo solipsism is quite logical for the person that ponders the implications of thinking that the 'probable truth' that all things are purely naturalistic is actually true. :lol:

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Even an atheist has to be taught reality doesn't exist. It's not something that's subject to discovery by any means.

That's not reasoning either; just a group of assumptions.

I like the past/future relationship. It'd be hard to deny no matter how deluded one was. Any hard fact about reality suffices to demonstrate reality exists. Poof ! No more excuse to pretend it's possible not to know anything. Game over.

There's more hard, undeniable factual stuff around than they allow themselves to imagine. They know how to see. They could've been blind. But they're not. Oops! Another hard fact. No escape. It's a lost cause. Game over again.

Wanna get esoteric on 'em. Try this: existence is relative. A single unit in a void has no means of perceiving anything because there's nothing to perceive. Until there is perception, there is no knowledge of what perception is like; thus it would be impossible to imagine perceptions from scratch. Game over. It's so trivial it gets boring.

Now what's funny? Pride is the root of the whole thing. Yet if nobody else exists, pride is pointless. Struttin' like male peafowl in front of... NOBODY.

I guess it's a matter of taste. Some games are fun to play around with; some are just too silly. My opinion of this one, I trust is obvious.

Even your wiki link was only good for one serious laugh out of all those words.

Solipsism is first recorded with the Greek presocratic sophist, Gorgias (c. 483–375 BC) who is quoted by the Roman skeptic Sextus Empiricus as having stated:  1. Nothing exists;    2. Even if something exists, nothing can be known about it; and    3. Even if something could be known about it, knowledge about it can't be communicated to others.

1, and particularly 3 ! Why'd he ever bother communicating any of it in the first place? Obviously he didn't believe a word of it himself. Anyone who believes such a lie isn't fooled by the liar - they're in a mad frenzy to find a way to fool themselves. (And proud to think themselves "intellectual" while doing it.)

#9 CTD

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Posted 26 August 2009 - 11:09 AM

Is that the "I think, therefore you ain't" brand of logic?

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"I anything therefore stuff is" will work. Ever try to think about nothing?

Now the subsequent trash that's customarily associated with "I think therefore I am" is unsound. That's how the upper tiers of deceptive communication work: they start with a little truth so you'll drop your guard; then they slip in the poison. The statement "I think therefore I am" is itself valid.

Myself, I don't think we need philosphers thinking for us. We all know how to think in the basic sense; the most we ever need is an occasional reminder & maybe someone double-checking for mistakes.

From that basis, we can proceed until we advance to the big questions. By the time we're ready for them, we understand we need God. It's pretty simple and straightforward, as it must be. God has made provision for the least intellectual man He ever created. Those who lose out choose to lose.

Note how essential timing is for the lies of worldly philosophy. Nobody bothers a 3-year-old with them. Such a child would soon forget that they can't learn; wouldn't take a day. These lies need to arrive at an age of pride and vanity if they are to succeed.

#10 CTD

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Posted 26 August 2009 - 11:24 AM

Is that the "I think, therefore you ain't" brand of logic?

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A more direct answer: No.

My logic appeals to the necessity of other entities to serve as the source of the stupid idea, for such source must be external. My own stupidity, amazing as it may be at times, is still human and still finite. I could aspire to become stupid enough to propose such, but it would take years of serious effort. I'm too lazy, or at least I was in the past. I have dabbled in folly, and even got after it pretty good sometimes. None of my efforts lasted very long. This idea of reality not existing is the work of a patient master, if it's the work of any human at all. I really cannot say what the ultimate limit of stupidity is for humans who persistently practice, but I know the limits of those who don't. This is not the work of a novice.

#11 CTD

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Posted 26 August 2009 - 11:32 AM

I would like to see some of our newer members give their feelings on this philosophy:

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Sorry. I should probably shut up.

#12 Adam Nagy

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Posted 26 August 2009 - 11:39 AM

Sorry. I should probably shut up.

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You ruin everything. :lol:

:unsure:

I think it's fine. Our more thoughtful atheists will certainly give this pondering a little time to digest before responding.

#13 Javabean

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Posted 26 August 2009 - 08:43 PM

Hold on a second. Let's set the stage and solipsism will fall out naturally. Let's say all the atheist's leanings philosophically were fulfilled.

Instead of believing that there may be no creator, they stand fast that there is no creator.

What are the implications:

You're a short fluke in a sea of time.

You can't think anybody else thoughts except your own.

All external things are perceived and not known

You aren't sure about anything.

All future events are unknown and all past events are only memories.

When you die reality ends for all intents and purposes.

Ergo solipsism is quite logical for the person that ponders the implications of thinking that the 'probable truth' that all things are purely naturalistic is actually true. :blink:

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This was quite the combination of Solipsism and Atheism Adam.

But in the end it falls apart. With Solipsism all that one see's is simply in his mind. So you can't even consider it a Naturalistic view.

As far as being a short fluke in the stream of time, well I see it as something completely opposite. I see each spark of life as something to be admired and loved. This is your only life so you have to make the best of it.

Can anyone really think someone else's thoughts? As a Christian can you truly think another person's thoughts? didn't think so :D

No one can be sure of anything, even a Christian will say that you don't know when its your time to die.

Your future is also unknown. You never know what it will bring. you can only hope it turns out the way you want it to.

The only thing a Christian can hope for when they die is that they 1. Weren't wrong and deserve a seat by God in heaven. Because the other place that you can go to if you believe in God is Hell, and you never know what could happen in the next minute. you could end up performing some heinous Sin that you can't be forgiven of. Supposedly committing suicide is one such sin.

#14 Arch

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Posted 26 August 2009 - 11:47 PM

Personally I'd say it's an interesting Philosophy. Thinking about reality in these strange, abstract ways can help one expand their thinking. Beyond that, I don't see it as being all that useful. If it's true, and my mind is the only thing that actually exists, I think I'd rather stay in this dream world.

#15 Arch

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Posted 27 August 2009 - 12:12 AM

Okay, just read the final posts this thread got pulled out of.

I've read over the Solipsism link Dee. I've got a basic grasp of how it works...or doesn't work...

Anyway, I think the idea is pretty preposterous, but I'm still interested as to how you think you can prove it wrong.

Regards,

Arch.

#16 Adam Nagy

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Posted 27 August 2009 - 06:13 AM

Anyway, I think the idea is pretty preposterous, but I'm still interested as to how you think you can prove it wrong.

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You can't prove it wrong. That's the point. If someone wants to believe that nothing exists and it's all just their imagination, you will get stuck in their own game because they have set a boundary, as irrational as it is, which can't be dismantled within their own paradigm. You have to get them out of that paradigm and the only way to reject solipsism rationally is to reject it a priori, just as you and Javabean have done.

#17 de_skudd

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Posted 27 August 2009 - 08:13 AM

Okay, just read the final posts this thread got pulled out of.

I've read over the Solipsism link Dee. I've got a basic grasp of how it works...or doesn't work...

Anyway, I think the idea is pretty preposterous, but I'm still interested as to how you think you can prove it wrong.

Regards,

Arch.

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Did you reply to me?

#18 Arch

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Posted 27 August 2009 - 06:16 PM

You can't prove it wrong. That's the point. If someone wants to believe that nothing exists and it's all just their imagination, you will get stuck in their own game because they have set a boundary, as irrational as it is, which can't be dismantled within their own paradigm. You have to get them out of that paradigm and the only way to reject solipsism rationally is to reject it a priori, just as you and Javabean have done.

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Yes, that's what I thought. But I was under the impression Dee was saying he could logically refute it. Maybe I misunderstood, but that is the impression I was left with. Hopefully we'll get an explanation shortly :lol:

Did you reply to me?


Sorry, was there a question? I've missed it, could you re-post it please?

Regards,

Arch.

#19 de_skudd

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 05:20 AM

Yes, that's what I thought. But I was under the impression Dee was saying he could logically refute it. Maybe I misunderstood, but that is the impression I was left with. Hopefully we'll get an explanation shortly ;)

Did you reply to me?


Sorry, was there a question? I've missed it, could you re-post it please?

Regards,

Arch.

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That was a tongue-in-cheek pun on the philosophy of Solipsism Arch... Don't worry, you'll get it eventually.

If you are responding to me, then you (yourself) therefore defeated the argument for Solipsism. But, you can still deny that Solipsism is refuted by saying that I don’t exist. But, in doing so, you again responded to me, and therefore defeated the argument for Solipsism once again. Your simply saying I don’t exist doesn’t prove I don’t exist, it just proves you are in denial.

Now, you can continue along the Solipsist line of illogic, but you will be doing so against ALL of the logical and empirical evidence amassed against you.

In other words, all you’ll be able to do is (once again) equivocate.

#20 de_skudd

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 05:21 AM

You can't prove it wrong. That's the point. If someone wants to believe that nothing exists and it's all just their imagination, you will get stuck in their own game because they have set a boundary, as irrational as it is, which can't be dismantled within their own paradigm. You have to get them out of that paradigm and the only way to reject solipsism rationally is to reject it a priori, just as you and Javabean have done.

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Exactly ;)




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