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#21 Arch

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 06:23 AM

That was a tongue-in-cheek pun on the philosophy of Solipsism Arch... Don't worry, you'll get it eventually.

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*face-palm* yeah okay I get it ;)

If you are responding to me, then you (yourself) therefore defeated the argument for Solipsism. But, you can still deny that Solipsism is refuted by saying that I don’t exist. But, in doing so, you again responded to me, and therefore defeated the argument for Solipsism once again. Your simply saying I don’t exist doesn’t prove I don’t exist, it just proves you are in denial.

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Unless of course, I created you in my mind, and I am in fact only responding to my own questioning through you...Can you prove that you are not just a figment of my imagination?

Now, you can continue along the Solipsist line of illogic, but you will be doing so against ALL of the logical and empirical evidence amassed against you.

In other words, all you’ll be able to do is (once again) equivocate.

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Oh don't worry, I think the whole idea is pretty silly :D But I still don't think you have logically defeated the position, and that's what I'm interested in seeing. As silly as I think the notion is, I don't think it can be logically argued out of.

Regards,

Arch.

#22 Adam Nagy

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 07:21 AM

Unless of course, I created you in my mind, and I am in fact only responding to my own questioning through you...Can you prove that you are not just a figment of my imagination?

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Many Christians would get frustrated at this line of reasoning because there is no rational way to talk somebody out of this irrational belief from this irrational belief. As an object lesson, it has no equal. You see, the discussion between a solipsist and Christian can only press forward from one location if agreement can be found and it is the one thing that someone calling themselves a 'rationalist' will verbally reject... revelation.

#23 de_skudd

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 07:26 AM

*face-palm* yeah okay I get it ;)

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Finally

Unless of course, I created you in my mind, and I am in fact only responding to my own questioning through you...Can you prove that you are not just a figment of my imagination?

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In which case you’ll still be in denial and equivocating. You can pretend I’m not answering, but I know I am. And not only that, but I can prove you’re answering me by your equivocation of the answers back to me. :D

Oh don't worry, I think the whole idea is pretty silly :P But I still don't think you have logically defeated the position, and that's what I'm interested in seeing. As silly as I think the notion is, I don't think it can be logically argued out of.

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Oh, I’ve logically defeated it, you just don’t want to admit the fact…

#24 CTD

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 11:08 AM

The junk about "it can't be logically defeated" is the root of the confusion at present. The reason it can't be defeated by logic is because it rejects logic. It's nothing more than a faux-sophisticated way of saying "you can't make me believe anything, so there. Nyeah nyeah nyeah!"

Externally, to people who do accept logic, it defeats itself. The "invincibility" only applies to those who choose to buy into the nonsense. The mere fact that people who claim to believe it speak to others proves (half a dozen different ways) they don't really believe it.

#25 Adam Nagy

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 11:20 AM

The junk about "it can't be logically defeated" is the root of the confusion at present. The reason it can't be defeated by logic is because it rejects logic. It's nothing more than a faux-sophisticated way of saying "you can't make me believe anything, so there. Nyeah nyeah nyeah!"

Externally, to people who do accept logic, it defeats itself. The "invincibility" only applies to those who choose to buy into the nonsense. The mere fact that people who claim to believe it speak to others proves (half a dozen different ways) they don't really believe it.

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Bingo.

#26 de_skudd

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 11:20 AM

The junk about "it can't be logically defeated" is the root of the confusion at present. The reason it can't be defeated by logic is because it rejects logic. It's nothing more than a faux-sophisticated way of saying "you can't make me believe anything, so there. Nyeah nyeah nyeah!"

Externally, to people who do accept logic, it defeats itself. The "invincibility" only applies to those who choose to buy into the nonsense. The mere fact that people who claim to believe it speak to others proves (half a dozen different ways) they don't really believe it.

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Yes, but you can't expect someone who makes a profession of time wasting, and takes quibbling and equivocation to a whole new level, to accept logic as a force to be adhered to do you CTD?

When one is so lost in denial that they would even attempt to make a serious argument for the case of Solipsism, then pretend like they don’t “really” believe in it, would waste your time arguing the nuances between the colors pink and salmon.

What is really getting lost in all of this is the fact that Solipsist are as dogmatic about the metaphysical as Atheists are dogmatic about the material. One completely rules out reality, the other completely rules out the incorporeal. And neither understands the significance of the balance in both.

#27 CTD

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 11:38 AM

Yes, but you can't expect someone who makes a profession of time wasting, and takes quibbling and equivocation to a whole new level, to accept logic as a force to be adhered to do you CTD?

When one is so lost in denial that they would even attempt to make a serious argument for the case of Solipsism, then pretend like they don’t “really” believe in it, would waste your time arguing the nuances between the colors pink and salmon.

What is really getting lost in all of this is the fact that Solipsist are as dogmatic about the metaphysical as Atheists are dogmatic about the material. One completely rules out reality, the other completely rules out the incorporeal. And neither understands the significance of the balance in both.

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It depends on the brand of atheism. All forms of anything-but-the-the-truthism are pretty similar. Those who pretend to believe in them are setting themselves up as gods; some are simply more direct in their approach. Really, rejecting all reality or rejecting cherry-picked parts of reality - does one clearly have any more merit than the other? To do either is to claim the capacity to dictate reality.

The majority we'll see here, probably put a little different spin on it. Something like "if enough of us reject this, it'll change". Might sound a little better, might sell a little better; it is no better, for it follows that he who controls the mob controls reality in that case, and it leads to the violence and backstabbing we see when atheism runs amok.

#28 Arch

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 07:36 PM

You can pretend I’m not answering, but I know I am.

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I think this is the heart of the matter. How can you prove to me that you know you are? Can you actually prove to me that you exist, and I'm not just inventing your answers in my mind?

Honestly, I think CTD has summed it up rather well:

The junk about "it can't be logically defeated" is the root of the confusion at present. The reason it can't be defeated by logic is because it rejects logic.


Regards,

Arch.

#29 Adam Nagy

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 08:25 PM

Arch,

What do you personally think of all this? Doesn't this have some reason to pause and consider the nature of one's personal philosophy? Having the facts is great but a worldview that is epistemologically flawed will kick back flawed interpretations regardless of how complete the facts are.

A solipsist can be cognitively aware of all the same facts, play the same 'reality game' because it produces comfortable or desirable results and live a 'normal life'. Now inside this exercise is an interesting question; Who among us is living the equivalent of a noble lie?

#30 Ron

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Posted 30 August 2009 - 09:02 AM

Arch,

What do you personally think of all this? Doesn't this have some reason to pause and consider the nature of one's personal philosophy? Having the facts is great but a worldview that is epistemologically flawed will kick back flawed interpretations regardless of how complete the facts are.

A solipsist can be cognitively aware of all the same facts, play the same 'reality game' because it produces comfortable or desirable results and live a 'normal life'. Now inside this exercise is an interesting question; Who among us is living the equivalent of a noble lie?

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Adam,

I honestly believe (and according to Romans Chapter “One”, and especially eighteen through to the end) that all this time wasting, flip-flopping, quibbling and equivocating is because “They” do know the truth, but they can’t find it in their innermost being to accept the truth. Because when they do, they’ll have to give up their fantasy of nothingness.

#31 Javabean

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Posted 30 August 2009 - 09:17 AM

Arch,

What do you personally think of all this? Doesn't this have some reason to pause and consider the nature of one's personal philosophy? Having the facts is great but a worldview that is epistemologically flawed will kick back flawed interpretations regardless of how complete the facts are.

A solipsist can be cognitively aware of all the same facts, play the same 'reality game' because it produces comfortable or desirable results and live a 'normal life'. Now inside this exercise is an interesting question; Who among us is living the equivalent of a noble lie?

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:huh:

I see what you are trying to do here Adam! I've suspected it for a little while now, but this ties it up all the loose ends for me.

You've been trying to link Solipsist with Evolution. But by your same logic we could link it to Creationism just as easily.

I still see this whole debate as 2 people on opposite sides of a 2 way mirror. The debates that I have seen recently between Evolutionists and Creationists can be turned around and made for the other side. Just change a word or 2 and BAM! its for the other side now.

I truly think it has everything to do with us not really doing the leg work researching and cataloging the evidence.

No matter what it's fun to discuss the ramifications and such.

#32 Arch

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Posted 30 August 2009 - 04:16 PM

Arch,

What do you personally think of all this? Doesn't this have some reason to pause and consider the nature of one's personal philosophy? Having the facts is great but a worldview that is epistemologically flawed will kick back flawed interpretations regardless of how complete the facts are.

A solipsist can be cognitively aware of all the same facts, play the same 'reality game' because it produces comfortable or desirable results and live a 'normal life'. Now inside this exercise is an interesting question; Who among us is living the equivalent of a noble lie?

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Sorry Adam, I've got to be honest and tell you that didn't make a lot of sense to me :huh: Any chance you could rephrase?

Regards,

Arch.

#33 CTD

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Posted 30 August 2009 - 06:17 PM

Adam,

I honestly believe (and according to Romans Chapter “One”, and especially eighteen through to the end) that all this time wasting, flip-flopping, quibbling and equivocating is because “They” do know the truth, but they can’t find it in their innermost being to accept the truth. Because when they do, they’ll have to give up their fantasy of nothingness.

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This is an accurate assessment. The fool will indeed say in his heart "there is no God". But he will never fully convince himself. Imagine the non-stop battle you would face trying to convince yourself anything that you know to be true is actually untrue. There must be some sense of success or they'd give up, but any success can only be transient, and the battle never ends.

Of course, for the truly dedicated assistance will be provided, as promised (and they ignore the fact that this assistance itself constitutes yet another proof they are wrong).

#34 Adam Nagy

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Posted 30 August 2009 - 06:58 PM

Sorry Adam, I've got to be honest and tell you that didn't make a lot of sense to me :huh: Any chance you could rephrase?

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I'd be glad to, Arch. :P

Before I do, so I'm not sneaking up on you, I want to tell you that I agree with both what CTD and Ron said. From my perspective I truly believe that people make an effort to confuse themselves. It sounds so judgmental but listen to anybody who comes to Christ and the common denominator is the realization that in their hearts they knew they were running.

Now for some pre-confusion. :D There are atheists who will say that they were Christians and they were kidding themselves. It really seems like we have our work cut out for us if we are going to be students of the truth but I think the biggest battle is right between our ears and has much less to do with what we see going on around us then what we like to purport.

Basically, what I'm saying is this. The facts and our perception of them our what they are. We can conceivably have all the facts before us and still look at everything wrong if we choose to have a foundational perspective that is skewed. I said this at the end for a reason:

Who among us is living the equivalent of a noble lie?

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This leaves me wide open doesn't it? What if Christianity is a sort of noble lie? What if there are a group of scientists who do science so well that they are full of themselves and believe their success in science qualifies them to press forward their religious beliefs as 'science' and as a sort of 'noble lie'?

How do we find the truth? We can all agree on the facts: A small time, poor Jewish teacher/prophet was murdered about 2000 years ago on a cross outside of Jerusalem. We can all agree on the facts. What those facts mean and what is the truth of the matter is an interpretive task.

We can see that organisms reproduce. We can see that they are all made of similar basic elements and produce varieties. We all can agree on the facts. What produces the interpretation?

A Solipsist is a ridiculous stance on it's face. However, if you start adopting some of the basic tenants you can start to see the reasoning.

How important is it then, to know the basic tenants of your life and the tools you use to proceed with your own interpretive tasks?

#35 Arch

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Posted 30 August 2009 - 07:49 PM

I'd be glad to, Arch. :P

Before I do, so I'm not sneaking up on you, I want to tell you that I agree with both what CTD and Ron said.

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Well actually, so do I :D And I agree with everything you've said, including most of the stuff in this post.

Here's a couple of snippets of what I think are accurate:

You can't prove it wrong. That's the point. If someone wants to believe that nothing exists and it's all just their imagination, you will get stuck in their own game because they have set a boundary, as irrational as it is, which can't be dismantled within their own paradigm.


The junk about "it can't be logically defeated" is the root of the confusion at present. The reason it can't be defeated by logic is because it rejects logic. It's nothing more than a faux-sophisticated way of saying "you can't make me believe anything, so there. Nyeah nyeah nyeah!"


What I don't agree with, is Dee's comment:

Oh, I’ve logically defeated it, you just don’t want to admit the fact…


Both you and CTD have agreed that although a ridiculous premise, it's terribly difficult, if not impossible to prove wrong. Dee seems to think otherwise, and that's the part I'm having trouble coming to terms with.

The rest of your post I think I agree with, especially this part :huh:

A Solipsist is a ridiculous stance on it's face.

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Regards,

Arch.

#36 Adam Nagy

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Posted 30 August 2009 - 08:18 PM

Hi Arch,

I'll have to let De_skudd expand, if he wishes to, but I think he has already done an excellent job. Here is the non-conflict conflict that you're seeing and I agree with De_skudd entirely so why does it sound like I don't, right?

He's looking at the solipsist from a more rational position, what I'm sharing is the fact that I can't talk a solipsist out solipsism from a solipsist's perspective. Does that make sense? Before a solipsist can reject their own worldview a paradigm shift must occur. They must accept that it is a self-defeating enterprise to believe that everything is pretend before they can acknowledge that it is irrational to find truth from an epistemology that rejects all perceived truth as a figment of the imagination.

I know that was a mouthful. :D

I had to reread it a couple times myself to make sure it said what I meant. :huh:

#37 Arch

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Posted 30 August 2009 - 10:36 PM

I know that was a mouthful. :D

I had to reread it a couple times myself to make sure it said what I meant. :huh:

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Actually it wasn't as bad as you seem to think :)

...I agree with De_skudd entirely so why does it sound like I don't, right?

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Exactly what I was confused about :P

He's looking at the solipsist from a more rational position, what I'm sharing is the fact that I can't talk a solipsist out solipsism from a solipsist's perspective.  Does that make sense? Before a solipsist can reject their own worldview a paradigm shift must occur.

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Well if that's everyone's position I think we're finally on the same page again. A solipsists must simply forgo their former beliefs as a choice. But I don't think you can convince one they are wrong by logic. Not logic they can't refute anyway.

Dee, was this the position you were trying to take? It makes a lot more sense to me this way.

Regards,

Arch.

#38 Adam Nagy

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 04:07 AM

But I don't think you can convince one they are wrong by logic. Not logic they can't refute anyway.

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I want you to consider something here. You can convince a solipsist that solipsism is wrong, through logic, the moment they accept that logic is real apart from themselves. :D

#39 de_skudd

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 04:52 AM

I think this is the heart of the matter. How can you prove to me that you know you are? Can you actually prove to me that you exist, and I'm not just inventing your answers in my mind?

Honestly, I think CTD has summed it up rather well:
Regards,

Arch.

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I see you’re still practicing the “I can equivocate out of any sticky wicket by not using real logic” brand of rationality. Not only can I prove to you that I exist, but I can also prove to you that you existed, and to everyone else here that you existed.

But this would be pretty drastic on your part, and I’m not so sure that you would go to such measures to continue in your ruse.

Arch, you and I and everyone else here, knows of you existence, my existence and their respective existences. You can pretend all day long that Solipsism cannot be defeated as a logic. But, at the end of the day, you know that “Just aint true”.

The only person that can continue to disbelieve reality is the person who has disjoined themselves from reality. Are you that person Arch?

#40 de_skudd

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 04:59 AM

I want you to consider something here. You can convince a solipsist that solipsism is wrong, through logic, the moment they accept that logic is real apart from themselves. ;)

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And that is the reason why time wasters can do nothing else but waste you time Adam. They don’t want to discuss, reason, and deduce towards conclusions. They are content with wasting your (and my) time with quibbling and denial of reality.

I would wonder if, when the finality of reality becomes THE final choice (that being continuance or extinction) the Solipsist (or other reality deniers) can continue in their denial.




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