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Did God Create Evil?


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#1 Adam Nagy

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Posted 30 September 2009 - 10:07 AM

[Godtube]77647fc3ce406950d943[/godtube]

I've read this before but this presentation was great. Regardless of whether Albert Einstein said that or not is not what this thread is about but instead I want to discuss what evil actually is and can a good God and Evil be a in effect simultaneously (as it is today) without contradiction?

#2 the totton linnet

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Posted 30 September 2009 - 11:06 AM

[Godtube]77647fc3ce406950d943[/godtube]

I've read this before but this presentation was great. Regardless of whether Albert Einstein said that or not is not what this thread is about but instead I want to discuss what evil actually is and can a good God and Evil be a in effect simultaneously (as it is today) without contradiction?

View Post

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Shmacken sie das little bratzen :mellow:
*
Yes God created evil, but he warned the man not to partake of or have knowledge of it, "for in the day you partake of it you will surely die."
God uses evil to create, light comes from darkness, order from chaos, from the void of nothing God creates the things that do exist.
I do not believe the premise inferred that evil is just the absence of good. The assessment of God after man had disobeyed was "the man has become like us knowing good and evil."
The point is God's intention for man was that man should only have knowledge of good, God's will for man has only ever been good.

#3 Javabean

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Posted 30 September 2009 - 01:10 PM

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Shmacken sie das little bratzen :D
*
Yes God created evil, but he warned the man not to partake of or have knowledge of it, "for in the day you partake of it you will surely die."
God uses evil to create, light comes from darkness, order from chaos, from the void of nothing God creates the things that do exist.
I do not believe the premise inferred that evil is just the absence of good. The assessment of God after man had disobeyed was "the man has become like us knowing good and evil."
The point is God's intention for man was that man should only have knowledge of good, God's will for man has only ever been good.

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Sorry, I don't want to be argumentative, but sometimes when I read a persons posts my mind jumps to a different tangent. Wasn't the tree that we ate from the tree of knowledge of Good and Evil? Doesn't this mean that God didn't even want us to know what Good was?

Now onto the main point of this thread. I loved that video!!!! It was very well done!!!

Oh yeah I guess I should add to the topic also :lol:

I remember a long time ago that I had read, or heard, that god was the author of Evil. I don't think this means that he created Evil, but I think what it means is that he defines what is Evil.

Either way If i am wrong on the quote, then I still stand by me saying that he would define it, and not be the creator of it.

#4 the totton linnet

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Posted 30 September 2009 - 02:00 PM

Sorry, I don't want to be argumentative, but sometimes when I read a persons posts my mind jumps to a different tangent.  Wasn't the tree that we ate from the tree of knowledge of Good and Evil?  Doesn't this mean that God didn't even want us to know what Good was?

Now onto the main point of this thread.  I loved that video!!!!  It was very well done!!!

Oh yeah I guess I should add to the topic also :D 

I remember a long time ago that I had read, or heard, that god was the author of Evil.  I don't think this means that he created Evil, but I think what it means is that he defines what is Evil. 

Either way If i am wrong on the quote, then I still stand by me saying that he would define it, and not be the creator of it.

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ooh no it's me, sometimes I get into this argumentative and dogmatical frame of mind and I start biting everybody, friend and foe alike :) the quote you want is Isaiah 45:6-7
That they may know from the rising of the sun and from the west that there is none beside Me, I am the Lord and there is none else.
I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create evil, I the Lord do all these things.
"knowledge of good and evil" implies much more than just mental knowledge, it is a participationary or experiencial knowledge as in fellowship with, man knew only good, in partaking of the knowledge of good and evil he was taking to himself the ability to choose [or so he was decieved into believing]
Evil is an entity it is not sin, it only becomes sin when partaken of or engaged in. God did not create man to be evil or to perpetrate evil deeds, but we do don't we? and this has always been the nub of man's problem with God. God has always been faithful in warning man that sin will bring death upon us and it has and it does.
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I don't really bite anyone :lol: jus' a figure of speech guys.

#5 Arch

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Posted 30 September 2009 - 05:20 PM

I don't think this means that he created Evil, but I think what it means is that he defines what is Evil. 

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What is considered evil changes with perspective. I don't believe good or evil actually exists.

Which is why I think Java has struck on something. God tells us certain acts are evil. But if tomorrow He decided to change that (for whatever reason) what is evil would change.

The only other alternative I can see is that good and evil are absolutes that even God cannot change. Which makes me think there would have to be a higher power than God.

Regards,

Arch.

#6 Javabean

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Posted 30 September 2009 - 05:33 PM

*
ooh no it's me, sometimes I get into this argumentative and dogmatical frame of mind and I start biting everybody, friend and foe alike :) the quote you want is Isaiah 45:6-7
That they may know from the rising of the sun and from the west that there is none beside Me, I am the Lord and there is none else.
I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create evil, I the Lord do all these things.
"knowledge of good and evil" implies much more than just mental knowledge, it is a participationary or experiencial knowledge as in fellowship with, man knew only good, in partaking of the knowledge of good and evil he was taking to himself the ability to choose [or so he was decieved into believing]
Evil is an entity it is not sin, it only becomes sin when partaken of or engaged in. God did not create man to be evil or to perpetrate evil deeds, but we do don't we? and this has always been the nub of man's problem with God. God has always been faithful in warning man that sin will bring death upon us and it has and it does.
*
I don't really bite anyone  :D jus' a figure of speech guys.

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Drat you got my hopes up!!!! :lol:  :)

#7 ikester7579

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Posted 01 October 2009 - 10:21 PM

God created evil indirectly because His creation choose it. In order for us to have freewill will and not be controlled like a matrix. Where everyone is a puppet. God has to give us choices. So because there was a choice between Good and Evil. And evil did not exist until it was chosen. God indirectly creates it. Because He never said: Let there be evil.

I answered that before I watched the video. I guess one could say that what I said is an extension of what Einstein said. Except his answer was much better and more logical.

#8 ikester7579

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Posted 01 October 2009 - 10:43 PM

*
Shmacken sie das little bratzen :blink:
*
Yes God created evil, but he warned the man not to partake of or have knowledge of it, "for in the day you partake of it you will surely die."
God uses evil to create, light comes from darkness, order from chaos, from the void of nothing God creates the things that do exist.
I do not believe the premise inferred that evil is just the absence of good. The assessment of God after man had disobeyed was "the man has become like us knowing good and evil."
The point is God's intention for man was that man should only have knowledge of good, God's will for man has only ever been good.

View Post


Evil exists because the choice to reject God's love exists.

Example: If everyone were saved. Followed the teachings of Christ, and were able to live that type of life. Evil would be snuffed out. In fact we would be living in Heaven where only good exists.

The reason we are where we are (a place between good and evil), is because good and evil are allowed to exist here. This gives us a choice as to the next realm (heaven) we will end up in by our choice that we make here.

2cor 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

Hell can only have pure evil.
Where we are has both. So we have a choice.
Heaven can only have purity and all that is good and sinless.

So the other two realms (heavens) can only have one or the other choice. So when we leave here through death our choice has to be already made. The whole thing does not work like ying yang.

Posted Image

Where it is believed a little good must exist in evil, as a little evil must exist in good to keep balance. Neither of the 2 heavens (Heaven and hell) cannot have any of the opposite of what they stand for. That is why once there, a person is locked into their choice.

#9 Arch

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Posted 01 October 2009 - 11:09 PM

God created evil indirectly because His creation choose it.

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In the garden of Eden there was the tree with the knowledge of good and evil, correct? When Eve ate the fruit she learned of such values? Doesn't that imply that good and evil existed before mankind became aware of it? Which means God created it directly and it had nothing to do with choice?

This is all dependent on you believing that good and evil are entities that exist and can actually be created, rather than acted and perceived. I don't believe good or evil can actually be created. They are just labels we give actions.

Regards,

Arch.

#10 ikester7579

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Posted 03 October 2009 - 04:27 AM

In the garden of Eden there was the tree with the knowledge of good and evil, correct? When Eve ate the fruit she learned of such values? Doesn't that imply that good and evil existed before mankind became aware of it? Which means God created it directly and it had nothing to do with choice?

This is all dependent on you believing that good and evil are entities that exist and can actually be created, rather than acted and perceived. I don't believe good or evil can actually be created. They are just labels we give actions.

Regards,

Arch.

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Knowledge: cognition: the psychological result of "perception" and learning and reasoning.

Knowledge is not a thing, but a state of being. A person can be taught that killing and eating other humans is okay, and another person can be taught it is wrong. The tree of knowledge had the exact meaning of every evil that existed. Even unto the point that it made Adam and Eve evil.

Before Adam and Eve fell to sin, Satan fell first. He fell on day one of creation. So I'll explain it from the beginning.

The first light was not from a physical source, it was from a spiritual source. Out of the three things that existed, only one things could produce light that contained no darkness (black body light is excluded because it is dark light). Light that had to be separated,and here's why.

1 John 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

And it is reconfirmed that it applies to creation in this example:

Revelation 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

No sun and no moon is the exact situation of the creation. So the light here has no night because Christ (lamb) is the substance of the light (not photons). And there shall be no night there. Photons cannot go though physical objects, but spiritual light can. Being so, no shadows were made so no darkness existed until there was separation.

So spiritual light = all he is good.
Spiritual darkness = all that is evil.

So when God separated the light here:

Genesis 1:4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

He was not only created day and night on the physical side of creation. But on the spiritual side of creation, the boundaries between good and evil were set up.

The creation of spiritual light created:

Physical side: Day and night.
Spiritual side: Good and evil.

This is also confirmed in another way. The second light that came from a physical object (sun) with physical laws, needed no separation to make day and night. This is because the laws that make shadows was a part of how that light worked.

So not only were physical things being created during creation, but spiritual things and their boundaries.

So when the spiritual and physical things were created, did they have beings in them?

Genesis 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

Notice the word heaven is plural. All through Genesis one it was singular. Which means the references to heaven during creation was each individual heaven as they were being created.

Now notice the word host. Host in this example is a reference to the beings that exist in the heavens that were created. So the heavens (Heaven, Hell, and where we are) were created. And the host (beings) that was supposed to be in them were already there. What this means is that when light was created. A place for the angels were created and they were created. When light was separated to create darkness. Hell and it's hosts (Lucifer and the fallen angels) were created. And we were created as well.

So before Adam and Eve sinned, evil existed because of what Lucifer did right after he was created. So because evil cannot exist in Heaven, hell had to be created to hold those cast out of Heaven.

So knowledge that was obtained by Adam and Eve was the evil that Satan did. Which put evil, like a seed, into the minds of Adam and Eve, And like a seed it grew.

So God created evil indirectly because His creation (Lucifer, then Adam and Eve) chose evil. God never said: Let there be evil.

Now you might think: Why did God allow this?... Why not just have one chice so that everyone could go to Heaven? Which would you rather have?

1) A creation controlled like puppets (a matrix type control)?
2) A creation that has the freewill to accept or reject God?

All of God's creation, from the angels unto man, were given that choice. This is because God does not "force" His love upon people. He gives them the choice to chose one or the other. This is where the Amish get it right. When a child reaches a certain age, they are allowed to go into the world (given knowledge of good and evil),and are allowed to choose to either stay in the world, or live like Amish under Amish laws and rules.

Not having that choice causes resentment. That is why so many x-Christians have resentment. They (parents) did not follow God's word and give choice. In some cases, the choice was made for them. So they rebelled because no one likes their choices taken away.

You see resentment is exactly what Satan wants and uses. It's like a seed of evil that brews hatred. The more someone tries to force the decision they do not want, the more resentment builds. And hatred breads off of that. Anytime freewill is removed, resentment steps in. So those who try and force a decision are actually setting up all their work to fail. How?

Decision - freewill to make it = a seed of resentment that can grow to hatred.
Decision + the freewill to make it = a decision that cancels out resentment.

That is why salvation is called a "free" gift. It is supposed to be given as a gift, and the person receiving has the choice to reject it if they want.

#11 Ron

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Posted 04 October 2009 - 04:06 PM

Sorry, I don't want to be argumentative, but sometimes when I read a persons posts my mind jumps to a different tangent.  Wasn't the tree that we ate from the tree of knowledge of Good and Evil?  Doesn't this mean that God didn't even want us to know what Good was?

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No, because if you read Genesis One, you'll see that He proclaimed His Creation"GOOD" six times. If He didn't want us to know what "GOOD" was, He wouldn't have done so. The tree of knowledge of Good and Evil was to show what evil was.

#12 Javabean

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Posted 04 October 2009 - 05:35 PM

No, because if you read Genesis One, you'll see that He proclaimed His Creation"GOOD" six times. If He didn't want us to know what "GOOD" was, He wouldn't have done so. The tree of knowledge of Good and Evil was to show what evil was.

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Gotcha.

Let me ask you another question then, just to get your opinion.

Seeing that there is a tree of knowledge of Good and Evil, and when we ate of the tree we knew what sin was. Does that mean we couldn't have sinned before? Or does this really mean we didn't have the capability of knowing what sin was?

See in this story it seems to me that we as a species didn't have the capability to know what good or evil was. If we did have the capability to know the difference then why have the tree at all. Do you understand my quandary?

#13 Arch

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Posted 04 October 2009 - 09:08 PM

So God created evil indirectly because His creation (Lucifer, then Adam and Eve) chose evil. God never said: Let there be evil.


You know, technically he never said "let there be good" either. He saw that things were good, but never actually made them so. Anyway...that's just a play on words :lol:

So, Lucifer chose evil which then allowed Adam and Eve to do the same. That part makes sense.

But how was Lucifer able to choose evil? It had to exist first right? So God must have created it.

Unless of course good and evil are perceptions and God has chosen to call somethings good and others evil.

So to answer the OP question, yes I do think things can be good and evil simultaneously.

Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.


Not sure it's entirely relevant to where this thread should be going, but I did want to quickly address this point where you said 'host' refereed to beings.

Now I could be wrong, because I'm using English language rules, but 'host' in this case is connected to 'them'. In this case the 'them' is referring to the heavens. So the way I read this sentence is that 'many heavens and the earth were finished'. The sentence doesn't reference any beings.

I'd need to understand Hebrew to be certain though :D

Regards,

Arch.

#14 Adam Nagy

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Posted 05 October 2009 - 04:16 AM

But how was Lucifer able to choose evil? It had to exist first right? So God must have created it.

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The whole point of the OP is that evil is not an 'it' in the most technical sense. We can give the descriptive quality 'it' needs to understand 'it', but as an actuality, evil is not a created thing. 'It' is a perversion of the good, the true and the real. Anywhere there is truth, someone can come along and reject it.

Someone can come along and steal my car, unless of course I don't have a car. Now if I go to court, and plead my case against the thief, but the judge stops my in the middle of my statement and said "It's your fault that the thief stole you're car. This never would have happened if you didn't own the car in the first place..."

How would you feel about that judge?

Now, how do you feel about blaming God or rejecting the notion of God's goodness for making such wonderful independent creatures? They are so wonderful, that they can think for themselves, make choices and obey God out of love. When they take their own power and pervert it to do evil (turn away from the good, the true) is that God's fault, or His doing, because he made them with the capacity to choose?

#15 Arch

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Posted 05 October 2009 - 06:23 PM

Now, how do you feel about blaming God or rejecting the notion of God's goodness for making such wonderful independent creatures? They are so wonderful, that they can think for themselves, make choices and obey God out of love. When they take their own power and pervert it to do evil (turn away from the good, the true) is that God's fault, or His doing, because he made them with the capacity to choose?

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Sorry I hope I didn't give the impression I was trying to blame evil on God :lol: Others here seemed to be trying to express evil as a 'something', almost to the point of making it a being that could be created. If this was the case then I would have to conclude that God did make evil.

However I agree with you that evil is not an 'it'. It is the way we perceive actions/thoughts ect. Since it is based on perception I don't think it can be created and the existence of evil cannot be blamed on anyone. Although 'evil' actions can obviously still be blamed on individual committing the act.

Regards,

Arch.

#16 ikester7579

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Posted 07 October 2009 - 08:32 PM

Here is a better example:

If you raise a child and he chooses not to follow what you have taught him. Which was good morals, etc... Does that make you the creator of evil because the child is a product of you and your wife's genes? No more than God becomes the "direct" Creator of evil because His creation rejects or rebells against what He told them.

1) Are the parents of Ted Bundy evil because of what Ted Bundy did?
2) Are the parents of Jeffery Damhner evil because of what they did?

If the creation has the choice to choose evil, it does not make the Creator the creation of that evil. Freewill makes it the individuals choice for themselves.

#17 Arch

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Posted 07 October 2009 - 09:57 PM

If the creation has the choice to choose evil, it does not make the Creator the creation of that evil. Freewill makes it the individuals choice for themselves.

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Couldn't have said it better myself :rolleyes:

Good and evil are both perspective based. And we have the freewill to choose both our actions, and our perspectives. No one can be said to be the author of evil, or good.

Regards,

Arch.

#18 ikester7579

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Posted 09 October 2009 - 12:14 PM

Couldn't have said it better myself ;)

Good and evil are both perspective based. And we have the freewill to choose both our actions, and our perspectives. No one can be said to be the author of evil, or good.

Regards,

Arch.

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Yep, just as one person cannot burn for another person's sins. It's an individual choice, so it's an individual judgement.

#19 philosophik

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Posted 10 October 2009 - 12:18 AM

I've read this before but this presentation was great. Regardless of whether Albert Einstein said that or not is not what this thread is about but instead I want to discuss what evil actually is and can a good God and Evil be a in effect simultaneously (as it is today) without contradiction?

View Post



Did the biblical god create evil? A very poignant question indeed. If god 'created' everything, then no amount of mental gymnastics can refute the notion that god created evil; with evil being a thing--an abstract concept--well within the parameters of 'everything.' That is of course, if god was indeed the absolute creator of every thing. However, I don't think this is the case.

I argue that the biblical god created neither evil, nor good for the following reason: if god is eternal and omniscient, then he would always have been aware of the presence of the dichotomy, with there never being a moment where god actually 'created' either concept. Instead, supposing god did create this universe, he merely transferred an already existing conceptual dichotomy from his consciousness to ours.

I think a more profound line of questioning would be as follows: How does god determine which actions and motives he will deem as good or evil? Does he do it arbitrarily at whim, with divine subjectivity--reserving the right to change his mind at will? Or is he aware of, and subsequently follows an eternally present, external moral code of conduct--one which necessarily dictates how he will judge his creation, prohibiting any deviation on what exactly good and evil is?

If god determines morality through divine subjectivity, then any theist would be hard pressed to define evil any other way than as 'evil being what god dislikes at the moment'. With 'absolute moral objectivity' literally meaning the exact same thing as 'capriciously divine moral subjectivity'.

If god determines morality through the observation of an already existing code of conduct--one which he has always been aware of, and followed because that was the 'right thing to do'--then he does not have the liberty to deviate from the set guidelines that determine what actions and motives are good and evil under such a code. Making him subject to a moral authority more powerful than himself. With the consequence from disobeying this moral authority being the loss of his omni-benevolent divinity.

#20 larrywj2

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Posted 10 October 2009 - 04:19 AM

Making him subject to a moral authority more powerful than himself.


If God is as stated in the Bible, He encompasses all. Any moral code is therefore authored by God. He would not act beyond it, not because He is constrained by it but because He is righteous.

A father decrees that breakfast will be eaten in the dining room and completed by 730. He finishes his breakfast at 725. Was he forced by superior authority to fulfill the decree he gave? No, he did so of his own accord.




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