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Is The Biblical God Consistent With Himself?


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#21 the totton linnet

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Posted 30 October 2009 - 12:44 PM

I find it hard to believe that Christians don't see this Ikester. If God can see the future, that simply means He knows what choices you're going to make (or made in His time sense) before you make them. If we have free will (as the Bibles says we do), and time is of no issue to God (as the Bible so states), it simply means He knows what choices we are going to make, not that He predetermines our choices.

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Refresh my memory Ron where does the bible say we have free will?

#22 Bex

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Posted 30 October 2009 - 05:21 PM

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Refresh my memory Ron where does the bible say we have free will?

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Hi Totton,

If we are searching for a word/s, we may miss the fact the meaning itself has been given already by explanation/descriptions throughout scripture!

It is evident that we have all been given a free will:

Genesis 4:7  If you do well, will you not be accepted? and if you do not well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it.


Deuteronomy 30:19  Today I have given you the choice between life and death, between blessings and curses. I call on heaven and earth to witness the choice you make. Oh, that you would choose life, that you and your descendants might live!


Joh 7:17  If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.


James 4:7 (KJV) Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.


“And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.” (Joshua 24:15)


“Envy thou not the oppressor, and choose none of his ways.” (Proverbs 3:31)


“Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.” (James 4:17)


Jesus Christ has offered salvation to each and every human being! We have the choice to reject or accept that offer. We are not forced to choose for or against. It is obvious we have the choice to change and repent, or continue on in sin. We have the word of God that continues to remind us of our need to get our lives back on track (or keep it on track), calling us constantly closer to Him or back to Him, whatever the case maybe. Let us not forget the prodical son!

Hell was not created for us! No human being need ever go there. But because of the separation caused by sin, we must be reconciled to the Father through Jesus Christ. Those that reject the only ultimate means to salvation and reject the graces offered to them? choose the opposite of light and life.

#23 the totton linnet

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Posted 30 October 2009 - 05:34 PM

Hi Totton,

If we are searching for a word/s, we may miss the fact the meaning itself has been given already by explanation/descriptions throughout scripture!  

It is evident that we have all been given a free will:
Jesus Christ has offered salvation to each and every human being!  We have the choice to reject or accept that offer.  We are not forced to choose for or against.   It is obvious we have the choice to change and repent, or continue on in sin.  We have the word of God that continues to remind us of our need to get our lives back on track (or keep it on track), calling us constantly closer to Him or back to Him, whatever the case maybe.  Let us not forget the prodical son!  

Hell was not created for us!  No human being need ever go there.  But because of the separation caused by sin, we must be reconciled to the Father through Jesus Christ.  Those that reject the only ultimate means to salvation and reject the graces offered to them?  choose the opposite of light and life.

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Hi Bex, I wasn't really looking for a fight B) honest, I guessed the answer would come along the lines you have set forth. But I would point out that in every case there is simply a choice set forth between two masters which is indeed what I understand for man. Those of us that know the Lord know that He gives us freedom to be what He has created us to be. But I would not myself define it as free will.

#24 Bex

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Posted 30 October 2009 - 05:52 PM

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Hi Bex, I wasn't really looking for a fight B) honest, I guessed the answer would come along the lines you have set forth. But I would point out that in every case there is simply a choice set forth between two masters which is indeed what I understand for man. Those of us that know the Lord know that He gives us freedom to be what He has created us to be.

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Hi Totton,

I know you werent, I hope you didn't take me up the wrong way! B)

I agree with what you have stated here.

#25 the totton linnet

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Posted 30 October 2009 - 05:56 PM

Hi Totton,

I know you werent, I hope you didn't take me up the wrong way! B)

I agree with what you have stated here.

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Nah B) Gbu

#26 ikester7579

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Posted 31 October 2009 - 03:38 AM

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Refresh my memory Ron where does the bible say we have free will?

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When Lucifer and 1/3 of the angels made a choice to not follow God anymore. Was that freewill or not?

If it can be done in heaven, what makes it different here on earth?

#27 Ron

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Posted 31 October 2009 - 04:58 AM

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Refresh my memory Ron where does the bible say we have free will?

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It does in many places totton. And it insinuates so in many more. But I would ask why you believe we do not free will? Do the scriptures somewhere infer that we have no choices? Or that we, as Christians are mindless robots? OR do the scriptures tell us that we may choose to do things.

For instance, when Jesus said "Ask and it shall be given to you; seek and you shall find; knock and it shall be opened to you"(Matt 7:7, Luke 11:19) the inference is that you can ask or not, That you can seekor not, that you can knock or not, that you have a free will choice to do so or not! Yes, there are ramifications, but the “Choice” is still there. Just like with salvation, we have the choice to receive or not.

Another example, Jesus said “Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him and he with Me.” What is the choice here? In order for the person to have Jesus come in, they have to “OPEN THE DOOR”! That is a choice to act upon, a choice that can be refused! Jesus goes on to say “To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me in My throne, even as I also overcame and have sat down with My Father in His throne.” Surely you must realize that to “Overcome” is an action and a choice!

I can go on and on about the free will choices we have that are supported by scripture, but I hope you get the picture. We, as Christians have the free will to do anything we want. But, with these actions come results (be they good or bad), and the Bible if chock full of testimonies showing both good and bad choices. But they were choices weren’t they? And the fact that they were choices proves that we have the free will to make the choices, do they not?

#28 the totton linnet

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Posted 31 October 2009 - 06:15 AM

It does in many places totton. And it insinuates so in many more. But I would ask why you believe we do not free will? Do the scriptures somewhere infer that we have no choices? Or that we, as Christians are mindless robots? OR do the scriptures tell us that we may choose to do things.

For instance, when Jesus said "Ask and it shall be given to you; seek and you shall find; knock and it shall be opened to you"(Matt 7:7, Luke 11:19) the inference is that you can ask or not, That you can seekor not, that you can knock or not,   that you have a free will choice to do so or not! Yes, there are ramifications, but the “Choice” is still there. Just like with salvation, we have the choice to receive or not.

Another example, Jesus said “Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him and he with Me.” What is the choice here? In order for the person to have Jesus come in, they have to “OPEN THE DOOR”! That is a choice to act upon, a choice that can be refused! Jesus goes on to say “To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me in My throne, even as I also overcame and have sat down with My Father in His throne.” Surely you must realize that to “Overcome” is an action and a choice!

I can go on and on about the free will choices we have that are supported by scripture, but I hope you get the picture. We, as Christians have the free will to do anything we want. But, with these actions come results (be they good or bad), and the Bible if chock full of testimonies showing both good and bad choices. But they were choices weren’t they? And the fact that they were choices proves that we have the free will to make the choices, do they not?

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Oh I see, ganging up on me ;) You know of course this is the BIG argument between Calvin and Arminus, well I think it is of enormous importance, enormous importance, but I do not feel it is one that ought to spoil love between the brethren.

I was talking a couple of years ago with a pastor who was of the strict calvinist view and in town they were doing a big screen vid presentation of Billy Graham, it was packed to the rafters every night [God bless Billy] and it was young people, Winchester is a college city bursting at the seams with students and many came along, unbelievers too and many of them were touched and blest by it all.

So I asked this pastor if he was involved in any way, he wasn't and was very forthright in his reasons why [you know how people get hot] but I said you do acknowledge that BG is much used of God and that many get saved through his ministry. He acknowledged that but did not feel the ends justified the means and good results should never affect our stand for the truth of doctrines.

I pressed him a little hard [although I understand how these people feel] and said "so you acknowledge that angels are at work in his ministry and the blest Holy Ghost Himself, else how could anyone be saved? but you fold your arms and will not work with him. He suddenly remembered he had an appointment to go to [somewhere in Texas judging by the speed with which he departed] but that is the truth of the matter.

In the great awakening of the 18th century there were two evangelists George Whitefield and John Wesley, it was GW who took first Bristol then London by storm and was the initial mover in the work and then he went off to America but not before pushing JWs boat out so to speak, JW took over the work~then they fell out over this self~same issue and the work was split asunder, it took perhaps twenty years before any reconciliation took place but they never were truly reconciled. Such are the doctrines of men.

Just to skirmish with you a bit, I would believe in FW if I had ever chosen to be born, did I have a choice? did I choose who should be my parents? I would surely have chosen to be born in America. In other words there are just to many constraints put upon us to have free will, I would choose to be rich not poor, I would have chosen for myself greater talents.

All those things are in the natural [are they?] I was brought up with a catholic input, I could go on and on and all that I would be saying would be that whereas on the surface my life is random, any number of people could tell the same kind of things yet I percieve that actually my life is very, very carefully planned. And I am of the most astonishing belief that actually my life is planned down to the fact that if one of my hairs has turned from black to white God knows all about it.

Now there are things in that which I do not understand but never-the-less I do not believe in free will nor do I believe it is taught in the bible.

With Lucifer it says "sin was found in him" well...the only free will I believe in is free will to rebel and to disobey God which is rebellion but then all you do is opt for the negative of God's plan, God's will is still the will which is now being done and which will be done in Lucifer and in every other single creature.

Now if we were talking about an angel or a man having such total control we might all be freaked out but we are talking about the Lord our God, I am PERFECTLY happy for Him to be in control, I trust Him implicity because submission to Him leads to freedom, not of will but freedom to be what He has created me to be.

That's my little skirmish, it's a big, BIG subject.

If you put a door in front of someone and say knock and it shall be opened unto you [assuming you are assured that somebody who loves you is on the other side of the door] who doesn't knock? our natures demand that we will.

#29 Fred Williams

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Posted 31 October 2009 - 03:28 PM

I have a very simple question and  am in search of an answer that exalts the biblical God. The question is as follows:

How is it possible to reconcile a God who knows all things (including all future actions and events of all beings, including Himself) and a God who is "not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentence" with a God who makes some vessels for destruction and ultimately to suffer eternal agony?

I will elaborate if it becomes clear that the question is not understood.

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Hello and welcome to the board! There is a good an reasonable way to reconcile these verses. Here are your two stated positions:

1) God knows all future actions and events of all beings.
2) God makes some vessels to suffer eternal agony.

Now here is where I’ll cause angst for most everyone in this thread. ;) I believe both these two intertwined positions do not have good scriptural support. If we keep score, the counter view will have far more scripture to support it. I’m going to start with #2 since this is the one most talked about in this thread and the least controversial. Instead of giving you the tons of scripture that contradict your claim (such as 2 Peter 3:9 which you already offered), I will instead address the very scripture you cited (with additional surrounding verses for context):

Rom 9:19-23 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory.

Paul, as he often did, is quoting scripture, namely Jeremiah 18:

Jer 18:1-11 The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying: "Arise and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause you to hear My words." Then I went down to the potter's house, and there he was, making something at the wheel. And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter ; so he made it again into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to make. Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying: "O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter ?" says the LORD. "Look, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel! The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it. “Now therefore, speak to the men of Judah and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, 'Thus says the LORD: "Behold, I am fashioning a disaster and devising a plan against you. Return now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good."'"

It is clear from Jeremiah 18 that that clay originally became marred in the potter’s hand not by fault of the potter, otherwise it makes no sense to make it into something else! The clay chose to disregard God, so God then made the vessel for destruction. I don’t know how you could possibly interpret Jeremiah 18 any other way. Jeremiah 18 fits perfectly with what Paul is saying in Romans 9, especially in light of the sorrounding verses, and it also fits perfectly with 2 Peter 3:9, and ultimately Romans 11 which is God’s plan to graft Israel back in. Both Romans 9 and 2 Peter 3 mentions God’s LONGSUFFERING and PATIENCE for his people to do the right thing. In no way can it be taken to mean that He made Israel for the sheer purpose to suffer eternal agony.

OK, now back to #1. What I offer certainly isn’t a popular view, but I have to stand by what I believe the Bible plainly teaches (God says the Bible is “plain” and “straightforward” Prov 8:8-9). There are literally 100s of scripture, starting in Genesis chapter 2 and all the way through Revelation, that contradict the idea that God is outside of time (time being defined simply as the passage of one moment to the next). Let me first start with two facts of history that are easy to demonstrate: 1) God outside of time was taught by the pagan Greek philosophers, 2) the Hebrews never taught God-outside-of-time, there is not a shred of historical evidence to state otherwise. The God-outside-time idea is only inferred by scripture, mostly by well-meaning Christians who have been unwittingly or otherwise influenced by Augustinian and Calvinistic influences over the centuries, and lately influenced further by “science” and theoretical physics and sci-fi time travel. Can anyone provide a single scriptural example where God jumps back or forward in time? Please note that God can speak a prophesy and is surely all powerful to "bring it to pass", but this does not mean he needed to jump into the future to see what He has already willed to do!

Open Theism properly applied cleanly solves all the problems mentioned in this thread. The problem is that too many Christians, including myself for many years, have been influenced by the God-outside-of-time idea. The critics will reply that “God knows everything”. I AGREE! But does God know who Santa Claus is? Does God know that Jesus is Mormon? God knows everything KNOWABLE and REAL. God knows the future in the sense that he knows what he will do, and he will do it. He knows who will win this weekend between the Broncos and Ravens becuase he knows every last aspect of every atom that will influence that game. Not only that, he can CONTROL the outcome and bring whatever outcome he wants to come to pass. But this does not mean the game has already occurred. THe future is a nothingless void until it happens. Isaiah 46:11 “Indeed I have spoken it; I will also bring it to pass. I have purposed it; I will also do it.” Did God know what Adam would name the animals before he asked him? No, because the future didn’t exist yet! This is EXACTLY what scripture says in plain language (see Gen 2:19). Could God look into Adam’s mind to know? Yes, of course. Did God make Adam choose the names God wanted him to choose, no! God decided to give us free will, because in his infiinite wisdom love can only be real (given and received) when free will exists. I can provide hundreds more verses just like this.

I will close by asking all those who disagree, to keep score for themselves as to which position most often has plain scripture to support it, and which position ultimately (and often) will resort to handwaving away the plain meaning (such as in Gen 2:19) by calling it an “anthropomorphism” or the oft-misused “God’s Ways are higher than our ways” (the scripture of the gaps).

Fred Williams

#30 ikester7579

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Posted 31 October 2009 - 09:39 PM

I have a nack for making Calvinists mad, so I'll just mostly watch and chime in once in a while.

#31 the totton linnet

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Posted 01 November 2009 - 05:43 AM

I have a nack for making Calvinists mad, so I'll just mostly watch and chime in once in a while.

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I make people hot too :P
It's not [for me] a question does God see the future to know it, what is in the future but He IS the future but He is always in the now. That's the very meaning of His name I am. That is far the other side of determinism or predestination and right at the opposite pole of openview theism, the past and present and future is all in God, the future already IS with Him.

If we could but glimpse this it is the key to miracles, there is no such thing as a day of miracles [past or future], a day of God's power. God just calls the future into being in a split second of "time" time is what we live in but God is in eternity. He is the Living God, He embraces all and calls the future as though it had already happened.

He is "I am" now and He will be "I am" then, the future is in Him.

When dear Martha came and fell before the Lord she said "Lord if You had been here my brother would not have died.." this is such a touching story in the bible, Jesus groaned with emotion, "your brother will live."
"Oh I know Lord, one day there is going to be great resurrection and Lazuras will break the bonds and come out of the grave...." Jesus looked at Martha and said "look at Me.....I am the resurrection...take me to him..."
God is not in the future He IS the future. His full name is "I am what I am and I will be what I will be" He IS the beginning and the end, the Alpha and Omega

#32 Fred Williams

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Posted 01 November 2009 - 07:07 AM

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Refresh my memory Ron where does the bible say we have free will?

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The Genesis chapter 2 verse I gave earlier about Adam naming the animals is one example, here is another from the Old Testament:

Isaiah 5:4 What more could have been done to My vineyard That I have not done in it? Why then, when I expected it to bring forth good grapes, Did it bring forth wild grapes?

Likewise a similar verse from the New Testament:

Luke 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but you were not willing!

In the words of Yoda, "there is another". (and another, and another, :P):

2 Timothy 2:20,21 “But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor. Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work.”

These and many more verses stand in stark contrast to the claim made at the beginning of this thread.

Fred
PS. Disclaimer: I am not saying that we can "choose" Christ. There is a difference between this salvation gift and free will. The Bible makes it clear that we are dead in our sins and powerless to "choose" Christ without the Holy Spirit showing us the way. The Holy Spirit will try to show everyone the Way, only some will accept the free gift. We have the free will to accept or reject the Holy Spirit's message and pleading.

#33 the totton linnet

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Posted 01 November 2009 - 07:15 AM

The point about open theism is no so much what is believed but WHY it is believed and why it has been developed as a doctrine [once a doctrine is formulated people come into it for various reasons and considerations] but the reason for it is because people come across a teaching in the bible which is hard to stomache and they find it hard to equate with how they feel about and what they have experienced themselves of God. The root of open theism is a rejection of predestination....not as taught in the bible but as it held and taught by Calvinists.

And I can understand Ikester's passion against it, I hate it every bit as much.

I've only in the last year taken to watch some of these youtube clips of all the various preachers, and I have to say...well some of them I like, but when I see these preachers gaily explaining predestination UNTO DAMNATION it makes me sick to the core of my being, the bible teaches no such doctrine, for heavens sake saints LOOK TO JESUS all that God is, He is, look at His kindness and grace towards people, sure look at His anger towards the religious crowd-they were the ones to whom all the dire warnings were addressed-I beg you earnestly saints stop damning people. It is there as a heartcry from Designist the OP talking about Billions of souls consigned according to these fundies to hell-fire because they never once heard the gospel.

If you really believe that you are following a different God to the one I know.

I watched how they caught Billy Graham out and how they caught this guy Joel Osteen out, the problem with Osteen was he didn't get a firm enough grip on what he somehow feels in his heart to be the truth, if he and others would get a tighter grip [you have to be convinced of a truth, and the only way to be convinced is to ground it upon the bible] he would take on these hard-nosed fundies, look them square and tell them they are plain wrong, and they are wrong.

We are not called upon to judge who is going to hell~it's that simple, we may warn that hell is a reality and that wicked people will go there [why should they not?] we should warn people there is a solemn day appointed when God will judge every man and every woman and that He will assuredly consign the wicked to eternal punishment. But never, never are we to say this one or that one or these people, that's for Him to decide.

Don't you sometimes stare at scripture, just sit and stare at it. "there is no other name given among men whereby we MUST be saved"

Oh the fundies love it don't they? this to them means everyone is going to hell, "they know not what spirit they are"
That scripture means that this is the rock solid, cast iron sure way, there is no question about it, you can be certain, if you call upon the name of Jesus you must be saved. Let us preach Jesus then let us tell the good news of His salvation, of His kingdom, let us by all means warn men and women. But never let us decide before the day who is and who isn't. If you check out the sermons of the apostles in acts you will see that they never did.

I am of the personal belief that on that day God has some surprises in store, and we will see that it will be His mercy which is at the forefront. Are You going to heaven? so am I, that is what is promised, then who shall inherit the earth? the last chaper of the bible says [after the millennium, after the great white throne judgement] God will create a new heaven and a new earth.

Look once again at the mill, if you believe that the second coming is near then the millennium is near, according to the OT prophecies this is when the rest of all the peoples of the world will come to the Lord, does that begin to answer the question of all those nations that do not know the gospel? The rapture is not the end of the world it is the beginning of a new age, the earth being 6,000 years old should tell you that there is another 1,000 years to come.

#34 the totton linnet

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Posted 01 November 2009 - 07:36 AM

The Genesis chapter 2 verse I gave earlier about Adam naming the animals is one example, here is another from the Old Testament:

Isaiah 5:4 What more could have been done to My vineyard That I have not done in it? Why then, when I expected it to bring forth good grapes, Did it bring forth wild grapes?

Likewise a similar verse from the New Testament:

Luke 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but you were not willing!

In the words of Yoda, "there is another". (and another, and another, :)):

2 Timothy 2:20,21 “But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor. Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work.”

These and many more verses stand in stark contrast to the claim made at the beginning of this thread.

Fred
PS. Disclaimer: I am not saying that we can "choose" Christ. There is a difference between this salvation gift and free will. The Bible makes it clear that we are dead in our sins and powerless to "choose" Christ without the Holy Spirit showing us the way. The Holy Spirit will try to show everyone the Way, only some will accept the free gift. We have the free will to accept or reject the Holy Spirit's message and pleading.

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Hi Fred we must have been typing at the exact same time [praise the Lord~co-incidence?]
Isaiah is really a question "wherefore brought it forth wild grapes?"
Yes I am in line with your disclaimer, I know some people are of the view that they chose the Lord and came of their own volition, this is where the heat of the argument is between Calvin and Arminus.

I do not believe it is possible to resist God's grace, I mean those that He effectively calls, this is hard to see I grant because to all intents it looks as though we have chosen, but :P really He chooses in us.

With the others yes once we are saved we have the ability to do or not to do, this is the place that God brings us into, but Christ constraineth us, He wills IN US to do of His good will. The trick is to allow Him to live His life through us and we can only do it by mortifying or putting to death the doings of the flesh and we won't do that except by the Holy Spirit.

My subtle contention is that having a choice between who we will serve is not really free will and can by no means be called free will, I'm not being cantankerous because which ever way we choose we are still serving another.

#35 the totton linnet

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Posted 01 November 2009 - 02:46 PM

Um, by fundies I don't mean christians who believe the bible to be the word of God or conservative christians per se and I sure don't mean to offend anybody on this forum. If anyone feels insulted I apologise. [grovel]

#36 Fred Williams

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Posted 01 November 2009 - 10:42 PM

Hi Totton,

I do not believe it is possible to resist God's grace


This is just a belief, can you defend it with scripture? B) If I recall, you said earlier that you do not believe God ordains people for hell. However, if you believe we can’t resist God’s grace, then you must by extension believe he sends those masses of people who are unbelievers to hell against their own will! (since they can’t resist God’s grace if God so chose them).

Isaiah is really a question "wherefore brought it forth wild grapes?"


But the verse states that God “expected” Israel to bring forth good grapes. Do you admit you are not taking the simple, plain meaning of this verse? Isn’t this also true of the other verses I provided? What about the Luke passage, how do you explain this, since it clearly says that the he desired for the Jews to follow Him, but “they were not willing”? This does not sound like chosen people, the "elect", not able to resist Gods’ grace! It sounds like they were resisting. Note that to be chosen or “elected” does not mean to be saved. Many Christians have given the word “election” entirely new meaning, but only in the Bible! Yet the word in the Hebrew and Greek means pretty much the same as the English, to be elected to something. This again doesn’t mean the person has gained salvation. Israel was called the "elect", Saul was elected (chosen) and he didn't fair too well.

How about this famous verse:

Deut 30:19-20 I have set before you life and death , blessing and cursing; therefore choose life , that both you and your descendants may live;

Sorry to pile on, but there are many more where this came from. How about this verse, one that you’ll surely find with whiteout in a Calvinist’s bible:

Jer 32:35 And they built the high places of Baal which are in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech, which I did not command them, nor did it come into My mind that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.'

Fred

#37 Designist

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Posted 02 November 2009 - 12:21 AM

In reply to post #18

Please Note: All italicized words in this post represent my way of quoting the totton linnet.

I've put you on the defensive, I'm sorry.

Rest assured Totton! You have done no such thing.

I just think there is some lack of understanding on your part, ineffective communication on mine, or both.

You seems to have had a very interesting journey with the Lord, I wonder if any of those missionary programnes you mention included YWAM.

Interesting? I suppose. YWAM is an accronym I am failing to translate in my head. What does it stand for?

Mr Elseth is known to be an expounder of the Moral Government Theology or openview theism as it is called, and that is certainly what you are talking about when you ask your question.

The whole thing about Moral Government Theology or Openview Theism is new to me. I am thankful that you pointed it out to me, though. That Elseth espouses it is also new to me and I am equally thankful that you have brought it to my attention.

So far, you are the first to give to me the feedback that I am sure every objective observer of Elspeth's theology would be interested in receiving.

Just for now I would like to answer two things briefly, first about man's fallen state, sure his logic is fallen, "their foolish minds were darkened" and "you who were once estranged and hostile in mind doing evil deeds he has now reconciled in His body of flesh in order to present you holy and blameless"

I am sorry! But I fail to see anything that would suggest a fallen logic in either of the two passages of Scripture that you just quoted.

Look at Paul he was no mean man intellectually, but his great learning and logical thought processes led him to hate the church and persecute it, and he was a religious Jew taught in the scriptures.

I keep forgetting that logic can be wrong or unrighteous if it starts or ends with that which is unrighteous or false. Perhaps I should qualify the term by putting a word like, "good" or "righteous" in front of it whenever I refer to it.

I utterly deny God gave Adam permission to do whatever he chose, He said "thou shalt not eat of it" Adam was not using free will when he disobeyed God he was rebelling against God. Decieved by Satan and after he disobeyed he still did not have free will but he placed himself in bondage to Satan whose voice he had obeyed~but God had mercy

Well then, if you don't think it was of his own free will or volition that he disobeyed God, what exactly do you think he was using when he rebelled against God?

The only free will man has ever had is to disobey God

Now that statement sounds to me like a flat contradiction when I look at it in light of what you said in the paragraph that immediately preceides it, in which you stated, "Adam was not using free will when he disobeyed God". If you still fail to see this contradiction then let me put the two statements together for you:

Adam was not using free will when he disobeyed God
The only free will man has ever had is to disobey God

Now do you see the contradiction?

This immediately raises some concerns or questions in my mind.

I am now beginning to ask myself:

What good is it going to do me to continue discussing free will, predestination, logic, or anything else with Totton if it is obvious to me that he is not careful enough to detect a contradiction in his own statements before he makes them, especially when the one statement is right on the heels of the other?

Now I am going to hand over to Isaac [Ikester] he has the same view as you and you might profit more from him, and he is my senior B) I will only agitate you which is not my intention. It would seem you have something to share with the forum and I wish you God's blessing.

This may be the wisest thing to do. But please don't feel that you are offending me in any way. On the contrary, I consider this conversation between you and me to be friendly, though not on the level that I would prefer.

The way I see it: either one of us is not understanding the other or the other is not communicating effectively enough or both.

I am wishing you the same as you wish me and even earnestly covet your prayers for me as I attempt to discover the most righteous way to handle the topic of this discussion.

#38 the totton linnet

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Posted 02 November 2009 - 04:51 AM

In reply to post #18

Please Note: All italicized words in this post represent my way of quoting the totton linnet.

I've put you on the defensive, I'm sorry.

Rest assured Totton! You have done no such thing.

I just think there is some lack of understanding on your part, ineffective communication on mine, or both.

You seems to have had a very interesting journey with the Lord, I wonder if any of those missionary programnes you mention included YWAM.

Interesting? I suppose. YWAM is an accronym I am failing to translate in my head. What does it stand for?

Mr Elseth is known to be an expounder of the Moral Government Theology or openview theism as it is called, and that is certainly what you are talking about when you ask your question.

The whole thing about Moral Government Theology or Openview Theism is new to me. I am thankful that you pointed it out to me, though. That Elseth espouses it is also new to me and I am equally thankful that you have brought it to my attention.

So far, you are the first to give to me the feedback that I am sure every objective observer of Elspeth's theology would be interested in receiving.

Just for now I would like to answer two things briefly, first about man's fallen state, sure his logic is fallen, "their foolish minds were darkened" and "you who were once estranged and hostile in mind doing evil deeds he has now reconciled in His body of flesh in order to present you holy and blameless"

I am sorry! But I fail to see anything that would suggest a fallen logic in either of the two passages of Scripture that you just quoted.

Look at Paul he was no mean man intellectually, but his great learning and logical thought processes led him to hate the church and persecute it, and he was a religious Jew taught in the scriptures.

I keep forgetting that logic can be wrong or unrighteous if it starts or ends with that which is unrighteous or false. Perhaps I should qualify the term by putting a word like, "good" or "righteous" in front of it whenever I refer to it.

I utterly deny God gave Adam permission to do whatever he chose, He said "thou shalt not eat of it" Adam was not using free will when he disobeyed God he was rebelling against God. Decieved by Satan and after he disobeyed he still did not have free will but he placed himself in bondage to Satan whose voice he had obeyed~but God had mercy

Well then, if you don't think it was of his own free will or volition that he disobeyed God, what exactly do you think he was using when he rebelled against God?

The only free will man has ever had is to disobey God

Now that statement sounds to me like a flat contradiction when I look at it in light of what you said in the paragraph that immediately preceides it, in which you stated, "Adam was not using free will when he disobeyed God". If you still fail to see this contradiction then let me put the two statements together for you:

Adam was not using free will when he disobeyed God
The only free will man has ever had is to disobey God

Now do you see the contradiction?

This immediately raises some concerns or questions in my mind.

I am now beginning to ask myself:

What good is it going to do me to continue discussing free will, predestination, logic, or anything else with Totton if it is obvious to me that he is not careful enough to detect a contradiction in his own statements before he makes them, especially when the one statement is right on the heels of the other?

Now I am going to hand over to Isaac [Ikester] he has the same view as you and you might profit more from him, and he is my senior B) I will only agitate you which is not my intention. It would seem you have something to share with the forum and I wish you God's blessing.

This may be the wisest thing to do. But please don't feel that you are offending me in any way. On the contrary, I consider this conversation between you and me to be friendly, though not on the level that I would prefer.

The way I see it: either one of us is not understanding the other or the other is not communicating effectively enough or both.

I am wishing you the same as you wish me and even earnestly covet your prayers for me as I attempt to discover the most righteous way to handle the topic of this discussion.

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I am sure you are right and are better off debating somebody more mature :) my only defence for contradicting myself is "at least you get yer cakes hot" with me. I debate and argue right off the cuff online in the same way I would if we were talking live, and people [at least I do] often do contradict themselves.

Here is exactly what I believe with Adam [not our Adam Nagy but bible Adam] He was innocent in exactly the same way a small child is, do you ever listen to small children talk about their daddy? why there is nobody in the world like their daddy, it does not enter once into their mind that He could be wrong or anything but good, they would never for a second think that daddy would wish them anything but good.

When God said of the tree of knowledge of good and evil "thou shalt not eat of it lest you die" he trusted and obeyed just as implicitly as a small child obeys, it wasn't a test or a choice any more than you would say "there is an electric cable, stay away from it, don't touch it" to a child.
Adam was decieved and nothing proves the bible more to me than the story of the garden of Eden because that is just how sin is today, I think if the whole of what happened in the garden were written we would have volumes and volumes of books on just that one event but it is all compacted into a few verses.

There was a great spiritual battle, there is a great spiritual battle today, would the man hold fast to God's word~see the play of Satan, "you will be like God, don't you want to be like God?" at any rate Adam did partake, he did disobey.

Before he was free, that is not free will [as I see it] but free to be who God created him to be. What he did in disobeying was to choose the way [he had been decieved into believing] of free will. That is all that free will is, free will IS the deception. Once he had disobeyed he found that far from being free he was now a slave. Ask the drug addict or the alchoholic or the s@x pervert if this is not the pattern of sin today.

In other words free will is an illusion. Choice between two options in my mind is not free will and that has always been man's estate.

I return your good wishes and look forward to seeing your posts.

#39 the totton linnet

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Posted 02 November 2009 - 09:02 AM

The Genesis chapter 2 verse I gave earlier about Adam naming the animals is one example, here is another from the Old Testament:

Isaiah 5:4 What more could have been done to My vineyard That I have not done in it? Why then, when I expected it to bring forth good grapes, Did it bring forth wild grapes?

Likewise a similar verse from the New Testament:

Luke 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but you were not willing!

In the words of Yoda, "there is another". (and another, and another, :)):

2 Timothy 2:20,21 “But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor. Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work.”

These and many more verses stand in stark contrast to the claim made at the beginning of this thread.

Fred
PS. Disclaimer: I am not saying that we can "choose" Christ. There is a difference between this salvation gift and free will. The Bible makes it clear that we are dead in our sins and powerless to "choose" Christ without the Holy Spirit showing us the way. The Holy Spirit will try to show everyone the Way, only some will accept the free gift. We have the free will to accept or reject the Holy Spirit's message and pleading.

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Ok Mr Fred :) these be very deep waters, whole libraries of books have been written on both sides of the debate [I have a feeling at least half of them are in Fred Smith's book case :) tell me I'm wrong B) ]

If you believe as I do in predestination, election, call ,justification and glorification as outlined in Romans you absolutely must believe [in my view] that God when He does call is irresistible. The difference between us in that matter lies in your disclaimer that you believe "that" work of the Holy Spirit takes place or is availiable to all who come under the sound of the gospel effectually preached.

Jesus said "But ye believe not because ye are not My sheep as I said unto you, My sheep hear My voice and I know them and they follow me and I give unto them eternal life and they shall never perish neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father who gave which gave them unto Me is greater than all and no man is able to pluck them out of His hand"

The writings of John are so precious, they are as sublime and profound as they are simple, they contain all those weighty doctrines just as much [perhaps more] as Paul.

He that entereth in by the door is the Shepherd of the sheep, to Him the porter [Holy Ghost?] openeth and the sheep hear His voice and He calleth out His own sheep by name and leadeth them out. And when He putteth forth His own sheep He goeth before them and the sheep follow Him for they know His voice. A stranger will they not follow but will flee from for they know not the voice of strangers.

This parable spake Jesus unto them but they understood not what things they were which He spake unto them.

The sheep understood [or at least they followed Him] but the thieves and robbers as Jesus called them didn't. Why did the sheep recognise His voice whereas the others didn't? I see it is all about ownership, I do not believe I can ever be lost or abandoned because I belong to Him I am property, His property. But of the pharisees they were not His sheep. He said they were of their father the devil.

Neither the sheep or the pharisees were free, not really, but each belonged to a master. Do sheep choose their nature?

#40 the totton linnet

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Posted 02 November 2009 - 11:37 AM

The Genesis chapter 2 verse I gave earlier about Adam naming the animals is one example, here is another from the Old Testament:

Isaiah 5:4 What more could have been done to My vineyard That I have not done in it? Why then, when I expected it to bring forth good grapes, Did it bring forth wild grapes?

Likewise a similar verse from the New Testament:

Luke 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but you were not willing!

In the words of Yoda, "there is another". (and another, and another, B)):

2 Timothy 2:20,21 “But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor. Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work.”

These and many more verses stand in stark contrast to the claim made at the beginning of this thread.

Fred
PS. Disclaimer: I am not saying that we can "choose" Christ. There is a difference between this salvation gift and free will. The Bible makes it clear that we are dead in our sins and powerless to "choose" Christ without the Holy Spirit showing us the way. The Holy Spirit will try to show everyone the Way, only some will accept the free gift. We have the free will to accept or reject the Holy Spirit's message and pleading.

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Just for a moment to look at the "Oh! Jerusalem, Jerusalem" because it brings in election.

Indeed they killed the prophets, they killed the Christ, did they do so of themselves? or was He delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God?

Did you ever think what the result of the Jews going into exile was? for that is what happened as a result of Isaiah 5 and the wild grapes, didn't salvation come to Babylon? you read how Nebuchadnezer dreamed and Daniel interpreted the dream so that he sent a proclamation through the land that the God who made heaven and earth was to be worshipped. God had already raised Nebuchadnezer to his place of power that he might build a kingdom through which the poor and needy would find shelter [the tree that spread out so that the birds and beasts found shelter. All this happened because Israel failed, the vineyard produced wild grapes.

And what has come about because Jerusalem rejected the Lord of glory? see here that even in disobedience, nay dire rebellion, God still brings His purposes to pass [and His purpose is salvation of the many, it is all mercy with God]

When we read God hardened Pharoahs heart do we read that God was winning the hearts and minds of the Egyptians? sure, it says Aaron and Moses were held in high esteem by the Egyptians, those that heeded Moses were able to save their produce and livestock during the plague, they enriched the Israelites as they were leaving Egypt and many followed them out.




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