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Is The Biblical God Consistent With Himself?


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#41 Designist

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Posted 03 November 2009 - 01:28 AM

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I am sure you are right and are better off debating somebody more mature  :) my only defence for contradicting myself is "at least you get yer cakes hot" with me. I debate and argue right off the cuff online in the same way I would if we were talking live, and people [at least I do] often do contradict themselves.

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After reading this post of yours I thought it might be a good idea to see how old you were. So, I clicked on your forum name. That is when I discovered how young you are.

I must apologize for mistakenly thinking that your life's experiences and familiarity with the Bible and apologetics were well beyond that which I would expect from any 19-year-old regardless of academic credentials and education.

Nevertheless, I figure that if God can use a dumb ass to speak to a man or if He can teach a man what to say when the time is right and how to say it as the Bible tells us He has and can, then He can certainly speak to me through any 19-year-old. If that is the only reason for me to continue reading your posts and looking for nuggets of truth within them, then you can be sure I will not be ignoring your posts altogether.

Whatever you say here, in obedience to that "still small voice", I am sure will be greatly appreciated on my part, when it has helped me to find the answers I am seeking.

#42 the totton linnet

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Posted 03 November 2009 - 04:02 AM

After reading this post of yours I thought it might be a good idea to see how old you were. So, I clicked on your forum name. That is when I discovered how young you are.

I must apologize for mistakenly thinking that your life's experiences and familiarity with the Bible and apologetics were well beyond that which I would expect from any 19-year-old regardless of academic credentials and education.

Nevertheless, I figure that if God can use a dumb ass to speak to a man or if He can teach a man what to say when the time is right and how to say it as the Bible tells us He has and can, then He can certainly speak to me through any 19-year-old. If that is the only reason for me to continue reading your posts and looking for nuggets of truth within them, then you can be sure I will not be ignoring your posts altogether.

Whatever you say here, in obedience to that "still small voice", I am sure will be greatly appreciated on my part, when it has helped me to find the answers I am seeking.

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:) I have even worse news for you for Totty is but the slip of a girl, a handmaiden of the Lord :lol: I sense you have somewhat of the Holy Ghost, but you must be careful not to grieve at God's word, we are not more merciful than God..

#43 Designist

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Posted 03 November 2009 - 03:45 PM

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:mellow:  I have even worse news for you for Totty is but the slip of a girl, a handmaiden of the Lord  ;) I sense you have somewhat of the Holy Ghost, but you must be careful not to grieve at God's word, we are not more merciful than God..

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Thanks for pointing that out to me!

#44 Designist

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Posted 04 November 2009 - 01:05 AM

As a supplement to the opening statement I made to start this discussion I would like to point out the following.

According to the Bible,
  • God created Lucifer and man and in so doing made it possible for rebellion and sin to be born
  • Before God created Lucifer and man, rebellion and sin were non-existant
  • After God created Lucifer and man, Lucifer rebelled and became the devil, God allowed the devil to be in a place where he could influence and tempt man to rebel against God, and man yielded to the devil's temptations and became a sinner
  • Then God cursed both the devil and man
I guess the question that this scenario raises in my mind is this: Who is ultimately responsible for rebellion and sin? The creature or the creator?

Under normal circumstances, no one, in his or her right mind, would dare to suggest that the originator, manufacturer, or creator of any new product or creature is not ultimately responsible for the behaviour of his or her manufactured product or creation.

Why then should any of us conclude that the God of the Bible is not ultimately responsible for the rebellious or sinful behaviour that persists within any of His creatures?

#45 Ron

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Posted 04 November 2009 - 03:44 AM

As a supplement to the opening statement I made to start this discussion I would like to point out the following.

According to the Bible,

  • God created Lucifer and man and in so doing made it possible for rebellion and sin to be born





  • Before God created Lucifer and man, rebellion and sin were non-existant





  • After God created Lucifer and man, Lucifer rebelled and became the devil, God allowed the devil to be in a place where he could influence and tempt man to rebel against God, and man yielded to the devil's temptations and became a sinner





  • Then God cursed both the devil and man
I guess the question that this scenario raises in my mind is this: Who is ultimately responsible for rebellion and sin? The creature or the creator?

Under normal circumstances, no one, in his or her right mind, would dare to suggest that the originator, manufacturer, or creator of any new product or creature is not ultimately responsible for the behaviour of his or her manufactured product or creation.

Why then should any of us conclude that the God of the Bible is not ultimately responsible for the rebellious or sinful behaviour that persists within any of His creatures?

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For the same reason God isn't responsible for your posting of the above comments. Because He created you and your free will. But you made the post of your own free will. You can attempt to blame it on Him, but it was of your doing.

#46 the totton linnet

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Posted 04 November 2009 - 04:35 AM

Evil is a reality, it is not sin, partaking and fellowship with evil is sin
James 1:13-17.
Let no man say when he is tempted I am tempted of God [even Adam] for God cannot be tempted with evil neither tempteth He any man.
But every man is tempted when he is drawn away of his own lust and enticed.
Then when lust hath conceived it bringeth forth sin and sin when it is finished bringeth forth death....do not err my beloved brethren
Every good gift and every perfect gift and every perfect gift is from above and cometh down from the Father of lights with whom is no variableness neither shadow of turning.

#47 the totton linnet

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Posted 04 November 2009 - 08:16 AM

And God did not curse man, He said "cursed is the ground FOR THY SAKE...." there is a whole wealth of knowledge about God's mercy in His dealings with His sinful creature which you fail to understand.

#48 jason78

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Posted 04 November 2009 - 02:21 PM

Under normal circumstances, no one, in his or her right mind, would dare to suggest that the originator, manufacturer, or creator of any new product or creature is not ultimately responsible for the behaviour of his or her manufactured product or creation.

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Car manufacturers recall cars that have serious defects in them. Why can't gods do the same with their creations?

Putting Adam and Eve in a garden with a tree of knowledge was an extreme design flaw. It's like chucking a razor blade into a kids ball pit.

Also, how exactly did Satan manage to get into the garden in the first place? Why wasn't there an anti-devil system in place to stop him getting into paradise?

#49 the totton linnet

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Posted 04 November 2009 - 03:42 PM

Car manufacturers recall cars that have serious defects in them.  Why can't gods do the same with their creations?

Putting Adam and Eve in a garden with a tree of knowledge was an extreme design flaw.  It's like chucking a razor blade into a kids ball pit.

Also, how exactly did Satan manage to get into the garden in the first place?  Why wasn't there an anti-devil system in place to stop him getting into paradise?

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You admit you have serious defects then. What do car manufacturers do when they recall cars? I think God's way is better, I am more than satisfied with both His redemption and the Redeemer

Putting an electric cable to a television set is not a design flaw, it is absolutely neccesary, most electric wires have hazard warnings, very foolish to ignore hazard warnings.

Sonship is about learning, God wants sons and daughters able to distinguish between good and evil, right and wrong.

#50 Ron

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Posted 04 November 2009 - 04:07 PM

Car manufacturers recall cars that have serious defects in them.  Why can't gods do the same with their creations?

Putting Adam and Eve in a garden with a tree of knowledge was an extreme design flaw.  It's like chucking a razor blade into a kids ball pit.

Also, how exactly did Satan manage to get into the garden in the first place?  Why wasn't there an anti-devil system in place to stop him getting into paradise?

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So now you're a car? That's amazing!!! :lol:

#51 the totton linnet

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Posted 04 November 2009 - 04:56 PM

The Genesis chapter 2 verse I gave earlier about Adam naming the animals is one example, here is another from the Old Testament:

Isaiah 5:4 What more could have been done to My vineyard That I have not done in it? Why then, when I expected it to bring forth good grapes, Did it bring forth wild grapes?

Likewise a similar verse from the New Testament:

Luke 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but you were not willing!

In the words of Yoda, "there is another". (and another, and another, :lol:):

2 Timothy 2:20,21 “But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor. Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work.”

These and many more verses stand in stark contrast to the claim made at the beginning of this thread.

Fred
PS. Disclaimer: I am not saying that we can "choose" Christ. There is a difference between this salvation gift and free will. The Bible makes it clear that we are dead in our sins and powerless to "choose" Christ without the Holy Spirit showing us the way. The Holy Spirit will try to show everyone the Way, only some will accept the free gift. We have the free will to accept or reject the Holy Spirit's message and pleading.

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I'm gonna pull a trick, don't you hate it when you are debating and you give a scripture and somebody jumps up with "ah! but the Timbuctuan newly revised translation [TNRT] says blah blah"

Well this ain't the Timbuctuan but old William Tynedale upon which as you know all translations follow to one degree or another including the KJV.

2. Tim:2:19-22
Unghostly and vain voices pass over for they shall increase unto greater ungodlines and their words shall fret as doth a canker of whose number is Hymenaeus and Philetus which as concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already and do destroy the faith of divers people

But the sure ground of God remaineth and hath this seal, the Lord knoweth them that are His and let every man that calleth on the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Notwithstanding in a great house are not only vessels of gold and of silver but also of wood and clay, some for honour and some unto dishonour. But if a man purge himself from such fellows he shall be a vessel sanctified unto honour, meet for the Lord and prepared unto all good works.

Lusts of youth avoid and follow righteousness, faith, love and peace with them that call upon the Lord with a pure heart.

Reading the KJV you would think it means rigourous "purging" of US but Tynedale is saying purge or separate from bad company such as Hymenaeus and Philetus etc. Choose for fellowship people that are fully out for the Lord. At least that is how I read it.

There was a huge change in puritanism between the century that Tynedale translated and the KJV puritan scholars translated, the earlier puritanism just after the reformation was much softer and sweeter. In the next century Puritanism had become more of a hardline political movement.
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PS I called you Fred Smith, shoulda been Fred Williams, apologies.

#52 jason78

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Posted 04 November 2009 - 07:29 PM

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You admit you have serious defects then. What do car manufacturers do when they recall cars? I think God's way is better, I am more than satisfied with both His redemption and the Redeemer

Putting an electric cable to a television set is not a design flaw, it is absolutely neccesary, most electric wires have hazard warnings, very foolish to ignore hazard warnings.

Sonship is about learning, God wants sons and daughters able to distinguish between good and evil, right and wrong.

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No, I admit that Christians think that people have serious defects. God has made some construct that is flawed. What makes you think that you have any hope of redemption?

Electric cables have plugs, with fuses in them that blow before the current becomes lethal. Television sets do not need a potentially lethal supply of electricity to run.


I have gained this from philosophy: that I do without being commanded what others do only from fear of the law.[Aristotle]

It looks like we can distinguish between right and wrong for ourselves.

#53 jason78

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Posted 04 November 2009 - 07:33 PM

So now you're a car? That's amazing!!!  :)

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Yes Ron. I'm a car :)

If you really thought you had a defect, wouldn't you want it to be fixed?

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Posted 04 November 2009 - 09:00 PM

Yes Ron.  I'm a car  :)

If you really thought you had a defect, wouldn't you want it to be fixed?

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:)

How I see it Jason is this.

The car is designed, but cannot think for itself. Parts break down and misfunction, so we get it fixed or sell it off.

What we're talking about here is two thinking adult human beings. God did not destroy Adam and Eve or consider them a design fault. He made them both with an eternal soul. All things were made good from the beginning. They had a choice to listen to God, or allow themselves to be lead astray by listening to the wrong voice. Even then, God had a plan of redemption!

That was the way God did it and it may not seem logical to us, but He has infinite understanding that far surpasses our own. This should also come as comfort for all of us. That no matter how much we may have messed our lives up, or sinned, or even messed someone else's life up or whatever the case maybe, God still has a plan and no situation or person is too far gone for God to lift up if they turn to Him.

#55 Designist

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Posted 05 November 2009 - 02:24 AM

I like the simple way in which Dr. Roy Elseth answered many possible objections to my question.

In his book Did God Know, he has a chapter entitled, Does God Need Products Liability Insurance?

There he says:

"If a Detroit automobile manufacturer puts a car on the market which he knows to have a steering defect which will cause the death of thousands of people, it does not take much intellignence to know who is responsible. Oviously the producer of the car, the manufacturer, would be held liable in almost every court in the land. But, when a God who built the earth, planted man and life on it, knowing with certainty that the entire production was going to steer off into the direction of sin and destruction be any less liable? Does it make any sense, further, for God to declare His creation good immediately after the creation of man knowing full well it had a certain defect? That clearly is false advertising and misrepresentation. If these facts are true, God would not have a prayer in any just court of law. God would be culpable."

He then begins to raise the first objection that was raised in reply to my question:

"Wait, you say! In defense of God you contend that man and a car are different because man has a free will and a car does not. Therefore the burden of guilt is shifted from God to man because man sinned by his free will. You might argue that we cannot blame God simply because He knew definitely that man was going to sin. You might say God's certain knowledge of man's sin did not cause man to sin.

The difficulty in this case revolves around two theological words: "foreknowledge" and "predestination." If we say that all men are "predestined" -- that is, foreordained, planned, determined or fated, then man has no free choice. You would be a mere robot (or car) and in the above law suit could not in any way be held liable. It could make no difference whether you cheated, murdered, or raped because whatever you did would have been foreordained and planned anyway. There can be no sin if one is not free to sin or not to sin. There can be no virtue, rewardability or punishment for what cannot be prevented from happening.

Most theologians opt for a second possibility -- that man has free choice and is not "predestined," yet God knows with absolute certainty what man is going to do (defined by most as "foreknowledge"). If man has free choice not previously known by God , however, the Almighty appears to be limited. Thus to protect God's power and man's free choices, Bible scholars such as Augustine have concluded God's "foreknowledge" does not affect man's free will.

This conclusion is made with one glaring problem unanswered. That is, how is it possible to have "foreknowledge" without "predestination"? How is it possible for God to have absolute certain knowledge of future events without those events being planned or predestined by Him? In solution to this problem we must analyse two additional questions: First, is knowledge transcendent? And secondly, is it possible for facts to have pre-existence?

By asking if knowldedge is transcendent, we mean simply, if God has a fact in mind, does that fact in His mind cause you to partake in some action? Suppose we say God knows you will rob a bank two days from now. Does His knowledge cause you to rob the bank? If we say "yes," then knowledge would be transcendent and we would be fated and, in effect, predestined. We would have no choice whether to rob the bank or not to rob the bank. Again we would have the problem of fatalism ("whatever you do really doesn't matter" syndrome). Furthermore, God would be implicated as an assessory to the bank robbery because of the causative effect of His knowledge. This would be taking Calvinism to its extreme...

Once again in order to circumvent the problem, of blaming God for sin, and of eliminating man's free will, most thinkers conclude that God's knowledge is not transcendent or causative. Rather than eliminating problems, however, this leads to several additional difficulties. First, if knowledge is not transcendent, how is it possible (assuming I am completely free) that I can accurately act out precisely what God foresees? Where do I obtain the data, which is contained only in God's mind, that has no causative influence on me? Where do I get this information so that I can act it out? Or is this is not the case and God simply knows what we are going to do without our "acting," where does He obtain the information about my not yet made choices? Again, assuming I am completely free and that I am the originator of my own choices, how would it be possible for God to know my choices before I made them unless He had planned or predestined such choices? My decisions would be certain and unchangeable even before I made them! Under these conditions, Adam would not have had to sin in order to fulfill God's foreknowledge" of Adam's sin would have been inaccurate. By this reasoning one can only come to the logical conclusion that Evodius, Augustine's student, came to 1600 years ago, that if God knows the future, man is not free.

This leads to the second major question. Is it possible for knowledge or facts about future free-actions to be pre-existent? In other words, is it possible for God to know my future choices if they are truly free? Do I myself create my own thoughts? If I do, then how is it possible for God to know my thoughts before I, who created those thoughts, even exist? Is it certain I will think the thoughts He has known that I will think even before I am born? This is the key to the entire debate: Can a fact exist before the event occurs or the idea is thought upon which the fact is hinged? Although it sound nonsensical, can a fact exist before it exists?

Let's go back to the bank robbery. In order for God to foresee the robbery two days before it happened (again making the assumption I am free and that ideas cannot emerge from a non-being), where did God obtain the facts that are not yet facts? If I did not yet choose the future choice of robbing the bank which He presently sees, and certainly a morally pure God would not choose such an event as a bank robbery (or murder of a little girl), where did such facts come from? How can God know my future free choices without my will being forced either by Him or some other being? To say that He does have knowledge of such choices yet we are still free to originate those choices is just as logical as saying, "My mother gave birth to me two days before I was born!" God would have had a fact before the existence of that fact, a logical absurdity.

The problem of harmonizing "foreknowledge" of God and the free will of man is overwhelming. It is a theological antinomy. This contradiction can be accepted, however, if one is willing to lay in the mud pit of subjectivity and completely ignore rational intelligence. There have been many men who have done just that. Augustine in a moment of honesty admitted that he was perplexed by the problems his theory presented. John Calvin, who agreed with Augustine, never offered proof as to how God could remain blameless while at the same time "predestinating" men to hell. John Wesley, who taught "foreknowledge" without the evils of "predestination" simply ignored the above problems. Jonathan Edwards believed in the Augustine-Calvin position -- believing that some men are planned for heaven and some are planned for hell. Edwards rightly suggested that to believe in "foreknowledge" without believing in "predestination" is a flat contradiction. Yet Edwards, too, faltered when trying to explain how God could be pure and faultless while at the same time condemning men to eternity in hell -- even before they were born.

If you are logical, you cannot reject "predestination" (as commonly defined) while accepting "foreknowledge" or visa versa. They logically cannot be separated. You must accept both or accept neither. Some have thrown an additional barb into the argument by saying God lives outside of time, and although this does not solve the man's free will versus God's "predestination" question, it attempts to explain the pre-existence of facts to God. This is not a characteristic of the God taught about in the Judeo-Christian Bible, however, the God of the Scriptures makes new decisions in specific points in time, can be angered at certain times, and can be elated with joy at other times. The Bible must be accepted on its face value or literal value. The evidence is overwhelming that God lives in an endless duration and succession of time. He faces consecutive moments just as you and I do."

But in spite of Dr. Elseth's impressive research and reasoning on "foreknowledge" and predestination", even he doesn't seem to see that if God had never created man or the one who became the devil, in the first place, then sin or rebellion against God would never have existed. Keeping this fact in mind, I might say it is impossible for any honest and sane mind to avoid the conclusion that God is ultimately the cause of all sin and rebellion against Himself.

If this conclusion is wrong, then I would like for someone to point out to me where it is wrong. So far, though, everyone here who has attempted to make it seem as if God is not the ultimate cause of sin and rebellion has not been able to do so without appearing dishonest, unreasonableeither, or ignorant, to some extent or another, of what I have said and/or asked.

#56 the totton linnet

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Posted 05 November 2009 - 05:21 AM

No, I admit that Christians think that people have serious defects.  God has made some construct that is flawed.  What makes you think that you have any hope of redemption?

Electric cables have plugs, with fuses in them that blow before the current becomes lethal.  Television sets do not need a potentially lethal supply of electricity to run.
I have gained this from philosophy: that I do without being commanded what others do only from fear of the law.[Aristotle]

It looks like we can distinguish between right and wrong for ourselves.

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I am certain of my own defects, I know what it is to be dead in sin and I know what it is to be made alive in the spirit, that my human frame is defect doesn't need to be proved to any but a fool, it will grow old and die, that even the sharpest most brilliant intellect is flawed would be recognised by anyone with a grain of sense, for it also wanes and grows feeble with age.

Is Aristotle your hero? he is dead, my hero is arisen from the dead and is a life-giver to all who will recieve Him. That is not my testimony alone but the testimony of billions down through the centuries same as Peter who wrote "Whom having not seen ye love, in whom though not now seeing ye believe and rejoice with unutterable joy."

We have that. It's an indwelling life
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Born again, you can be born again
you can live in the Father's love
and when this life is done
like clouds that fade away
your life will still go on
through eternal days

#57 Ron

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Posted 05 November 2009 - 05:54 AM

Yes Ron.  I'm a car  :rolleyes:

If you really thought you had a defect, wouldn't you want it to be fixed?

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All of our defects will be fixed (one way or the other) one day. But to compare yourself to a car is a little far fetched is it not?

#58 jason78

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Posted 05 November 2009 - 09:43 AM

All of our defects will be fixed (one way or the other) one day. But to compare yourself to a car is a little far fetched is it not?

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My point still stands though. Car manufactures recall their cars when they have a serious defect. Why can't gods do that with their creations?

#59 jason78

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Posted 05 November 2009 - 09:45 AM

Is Aristotle your hero? he is dead, my hero is arisen from the dead and is a life-giver to all who will recieve Him. That is not my testimony alone but the testimony of billions down through the centuries same as Peter who wrote "Whom having not seen ye love, in whom though not now seeing ye believe and rejoice with unutterable joy."

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No, Aristotle isn't my hero. I think he said some pretty interesting things though.

#60 Ron

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Posted 05 November 2009 - 10:31 AM

My point still stands though.  Car manufactures recall their cars when they have a serious defect.  Why can't gods do that with their creations?

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God is going to issue a recall. Hopefully, for some, its better later than sooner.




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