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#1 Guest_FrankH_*

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Posted 03 November 2009 - 12:42 PM

Howdy all,


Well, my name is Frank as such from my screen name. No mystery there. I live in North Carolina and I'm agnostic. I hope everyone knows what an agnostic is vs an atheist.

No, I don't hate religion but please don't tell me your faith "Is god's true one" as so many make that claim as to render the possibility of yours being the "one" to next to 0.


Later

#2 ikester7579

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Posted 04 November 2009 - 02:40 AM

Welcome to the boards. Now you come to a Christian board to debate, what do you expect to hear anyway? Our God is not the true God?

Also, there are a lot of agnostics that don't know they are atheists. I put one to the test a few months ago by using the definition of atheist and agnostic. Then comparing it to what he was saying in his posts. He was shocked that his post, more than 90% of the time supported the atheist view and attitude. He then said: I guess I'm an atheist.

Also, I have only met a couple of true agnostics. They came in here and laughed at both sides of the issue because they were truly neutral on the subject. Every other agnostic I have met, always takes the atheist side when it gets right down to it.

An example is you coming in here trying to tell us what you don't want to hear, which by the way is taking sides, and the attitude.

If you were neutral, you would have said: I don't want to hear that evolution or creation is true. Prove it. But making a stance against God only = atheist.

Agnostic: someone who is doubtful or noncommittal about something.

If you believe in evolutionism, naturalism, humanism, etc... Then you believe in the very foundations of what atheism stands for.

Naturalism: (philosophy) the doctrine that the world can be understood in scientific terms without recourse to spiritual or supernatural explanations

Humanism: the doctrine that people's duty is to promote human welfare
the doctrine emphasizing a person's capacity for self-realization through reason; rejects religion and the supernatural

Is there any of that, that you would say you reject?

#3 Ron

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Posted 04 November 2009 - 03:41 AM

Howdy all,
Well, my name is Frank as such from my screen name.  No mystery there.  I live in North Carolina and I'm agnostic.  I hope everyone knows what an agnostic is vs an atheist.

No, I don't hate religion but please don't tell me your faith "Is god's true one" as so many make that claim as to render the possibility of yours being the "one" to next to 0.
Later

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Hello Frank, and welcome to the boards.

The definition for agnosticism and atheism have become blurred over the years. Mostly due to non-committal atheists. But, keep in mind, you're bringing your agnostic faith here to argue against my faith in Christ. Therefore, you're not hating religion, you're just loving yours more than you love mine.


Its all good friend.

#4 Guest_FrankH_*

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Posted 04 November 2009 - 06:00 AM

Welcome to the boards. Now you come to a Christian board to debate, what do you expect to hear anyway? Our God is not the true God?

Just please don't tell me I'm going to hell.

Also, there are a lot of agnostics that don't know they are atheists. I put one to the test a few months ago by using the definition of atheist and agnostic. Then comparing it to what he was saying in his posts. He was shocked that his post, more than 90% of the time supported the atheist view and attitude. He then said: I guess I'm an atheist.

The thing is there are many Christians who have no issue with believing in their God and thinking that their God used evolution to get it done.

An atheist believes there is no gods. An Agnostic, well this agnostic, are there gods or goddesses? Maybe. I just have found no evidence that any of the gods that some worship are much more then their idealized version of what they believe a deity should be.

Also, I have only met a couple of true agnostics. They came in here and laughed at both sides of the issue because they were truly neutral on the subject. Every other agnostic I have met, always takes the atheist side when it gets right down to it.

False dichotomy. There is more than "two sides". There is the science side and then there is every creation story fable or tale from any other religion you care to name. As for "laughing at both sides", I think they were laughing more at the people who post and were "agent provocateurs" than laughing at the science or religion.

See, even if Evolution is 100% wrong, it in no way means that YEC Biblical Creationism is right. That's the false dichotomy.

An example is you coming in here trying to tell us what you don't want to hear, which by the way is taking sides, and the attitude.

If you were neutral, you would have said: I don't want to hear that evolution or creation is true. Prove it. But making a stance against God only = atheist.

100% wrong. Like I said, there isn't just Evolution or YEC Creationism. I have already looked at the evidence and have concluded there is no evidence for YEC Creation. That is not a belief as Evolution can be overturned tomorrow and I won't care. I have no emotional nor vested interest in it.

Science works because it corrects itself when it is wrong. Dogma never does.

Agnostic: someone who is doubtful or noncommittal about something.

Define it as you will. Label me what you want. Judge me if you like.

If you believe in evolutionism, naturalism, humanism, etc... Then you believe in the very foundations of what atheism stands for.

Wow, you judge people alot don't you?

Naturalism: (philosophy) the doctrine that the world can be understood in scientific terms without recourse to spiritual or supernatural explanations

And you judge me to "believe" in that? Interesting.

Humanism: the doctrine that people's duty is to promote human welfare

Which I do agree with. I don't believe in it though but I think it is far better than many other "isms" out there.

the doctrine emphasizing a person's capacity for self-realization through reason; rejects religion and the supernatural

Is there any of that, that you would say you reject?

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I will not be pidgeon holed by your definitions when the words you use have different connotations.

Oh yes, Creationist debate tactic #1:

Tar the people you don't want to contest your POV.

#5 ikester7579

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Posted 04 November 2009 - 07:40 AM

Just please don't tell me I'm going to hell.The thing is there are many Christians who have no issue with believing in their God and thinking that their God used evolution to get it done.

An atheist believes there is no gods.  An Agnostic, well this agnostic, are there gods or goddesses?  Maybe.  I just have found no evidence that any of the gods that some worship are much more then their idealized version of what they believe a deity should be.False dichotomy.  There is more than "two sides".  There is the science side and then there is every creation story fable or tale from any other religion you care to name.  As for "laughing at both sides", I think they were laughing more at the people who post and were "agent provocateurs" than laughing at the science or religion.

See, even if Evolution is 100% wrong, it in no way means that YEC Biblical Creationism is right.  That's the false dichotomy.

An example is you coming in here trying to tell us what you don't want to hear, which by the way is taking sides, and the attitude.100% wrong.  Like I said, there isn't just Evolution or YEC Creationism.  I have already looked at the evidence and have concluded there is no evidence for YEC Creation.  That is not a belief as Evolution can be overturned tomorrow and I won't care.  I have no emotional nor vested interest in it.

Science works because it corrects itself when it is wrong.  Dogma never does.Define it as you will.  Label me what you want.  Judge me if you like.Wow, you judge people alot don't you?And you judge me to "believe" in that?  Interesting.Which I do agree with.  I don't believe in it though but I think it is far better than many other "isms" out there.I will not be pidgeon holed by your definitions when the words you use have different connotations.

Oh yes, Creationist debate tactic #1:

Tar the people you don't want to contest your POV.

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Frank. You accuse me of some type of judgment. Remember you were the first to stereotype all of us (judge), and then tell us what you did not want. I just dished a little back to you. I basically don't allow members here to tell one another they are going to hell. But if that bothers you, when you don't believe that. Does that not say something?

You tarred first by grouping all of us. Why don't you give the forum a chance before you judge us all? We strive on being different. Most etablished members from both sides will tell you that we are different.

#6 Ron

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Posted 04 November 2009 - 10:23 AM

Just please don't tell me I'm going to hell.

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That, Frank , is completely up to you. But your not wanting to hear it won’t make it go away.

An atheist believes there is no gods.  An Agnostic, well this agnostic, are there gods or goddesses?  Maybe. 

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Which takes us back to the whole “hell” issue… The “maybe” issue should keep your attention meter needle more on the “if it could be, maybe I shouldn’t dismiss it so eagerly” side.

See, even if Evolution is 100% wrong, it in no way means that YEC Biblical Creationism is right.  That's the false dichotomy.

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And, conversely, it in no way means that YEC Biblical Creationism is NOT right either. Therefore, from the true agnostic view, it IS NOT a “false dichotomy”.

#7 ikester7579

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Posted 04 November 2009 - 10:19 PM

That, Frank , is completely up to you.  But  your not wanting to hear it won’t make it go away.
Which takes us back to the whole “hell” issue… The “maybe” issue should keep your attention meter needle more on the “if it could be, maybe I shouldn’t dismiss it so eagerly” side.

And, conversely, it in no way means that YEC Biblical Creationism is NOT right either. Therefore, from the true agnostic view, it IS NOT a “false dichotomy”.

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I really don't think it's a good idea to push the hell issue when it bothers someone. I have not really seen where reminding people of this do any good. Most it just makes them mad. So let's not make it an issue. :)

#8 Ron

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Posted 05 November 2009 - 03:25 AM

Normally I'd agree with you ikester, but the bravado and attitude that Frank came in here with, leads me to believe that he is less interested with open honest dialogue, and more so with telling others what they can and cannot discuss.

As you'll notice, you didn't even come close to broaching the subject of hell. Yet Frank blurts out "Just please don't tell me I'm going to hell".

#9 ikester7579

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Posted 05 November 2009 - 04:12 AM

I suspect that he came from a forum where some immature Christians verbally abused him in this manner. And is the reason he has this attitude. I've seen it before.

#10 Ron

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Posted 06 November 2009 - 05:35 AM

I suspect that he came from a forum where some immature Christians verbally abused him in this manner. And is the reason he has this attitude. I've seen it before.

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Were that the case, his best tact would be to say something like "Look, I've been through all this Hell stuff before, and this is why I don't believe it". Not "You're not allowed to tell me about Hell".

In the short time I've been here, I can't count on two fingers the times a Christian has brough up Hell (in a condemning manner, or as an offence weapon in any arguement). It's always the non-theist that throws this up so as to prevent it from coming up later (as far as I remember, if I'm wrong I stand corrected). And, since Jesus had no problem with discussing it, neither do I. If it is an appropriate time in the discussion, its the appropriate time.

#11 ikester7579

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Posted 06 November 2009 - 09:17 AM

Time will tell.

#12 Ron

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Posted 06 November 2009 - 04:34 PM

Time will tell.

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Indeed




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