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Are Atheists Subhuman?


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#41 Guest_Taikoo_*

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Posted 05 November 2009 - 06:12 AM

Taking an idea from pagan religion that dates back to the time of Moses. Making it sound scientific and calling it evolution is a good trick as well.

Egytians believed that they came from the slime of the Nile River. Then turned into animals, then man. This is why there were paintings on the wall of half man half animal figures.

Darwin having a degree in theology tells us that Darwin knew about this pagan belief, And put his twist on it to make it sound scientific.

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This is a possibility, kind of far fetched. Wont do to say it as fact, otherwise one is open to being doubted in other things they say as fact.

Of course, it makes no difference if he got the idea in a dream or from the mouth of babes, though, does it? The idea stands on its own merit.

Nobody that I know of, except Christians whose belief requires them to reject it, has any trouble seeing that evolution makes sense and has a vast backing of good data. With, as i have noted previously, not one verifiable data point to contradict it.

That is about as different from a magic trick as the Metro_Goldwin lion is from Barak Obama.

#42 Guest_Taikoo_*

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Posted 05 November 2009 - 06:14 AM

If education is what makes the difference. Then Darwin and lyell have a big problem with zero degrees in science.

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Formal education... GWB and Obama both have graduate degrees.

So go figure. I think Moses didnt have a degree.

#43 Guest_FrankH_*

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Posted 05 November 2009 - 06:22 AM

If education is what makes the difference. Then Darwin and lyell have a big problem with zero degrees in science.

Formal education... GWB and Obama both have graduate degrees.

So go figure. I think Moses didnt have a degree.

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One thing ikester757 doesn't mention is that comparing a PhD in Physics from 1820 and even one from 1920 are night and day. A PhD in Physics in 1820 was Classical Newtonian Dynamics.

When compared to what there is today, the claim that someone who went to a university almost 200 years ago didn't have a degree in something vs a PhD in Philosophy claiming Evolution doesn't work are not even in the same ballpark let alone same sport.

#44 Guest_Taikoo_*

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Posted 05 November 2009 - 06:22 AM

Really, can you provide the historical evidences that in any way impugn the historicity of the New Testament?  Other than your a priori opinions of course.

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I dont actually remember what goes in the old and what goes in the new. Does it make a difference, they are both presumed to be accurate.

My a priori is that a lot of the historical stuff is not even represented as being the word of God, but just history as recorded by. Perhaps many years later, and always from the authors perspective. Maybe they didnt slay exactly 20,000 Philistines or whatever it was; maybe it was 19,999.

I dont think there is any record that indicates there was even an Exodus, other than in the bible.

But im not the one to dispute the historical accuracy of the Bible. All of the history, minus the magic, maybe it totally real. But then there are lots of history books, and that one as history, doesnt much interest me.

Those people are not my people, their history is not my history (or yours).
Its hard to get much info out of it, and I dont see much point in it when there are so many better more relevant history books to read.

#45 Guest_Taikoo_*

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Posted 05 November 2009 - 06:26 AM

Formal education... GWB and Obama both have graduate degrees.

So go figure.  I think Moses didnt have a degree.

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One thing ikester757 doesn't mention is that comparing a PhD in Physics from 1820 and even one from 1920 are night and day.  A PhD in Physics in 1820 was Classical Newtonian Dynamics.

When compared to what there is today, the claim that someone who went to a university almost 200 years ago didn't have a degree in something vs a PhD in Philosophy claiming Evolution doesn't work are not even in the same ballpark let alone same sport.

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Well its all arguing from authority.

Science deals with data, not big names.

If some hillbilly finds the real cretaceous footprint of a human he will possibly be remembered longer than Darwin.

#46 Guest_FrankH_*

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Posted 05 November 2009 - 06:49 AM

Well its all arguing from authority.

Science deals with data, not big names. 

If some hillbilly finds the real cretaceous footprint of a human he will possibly be remembered longer than Darwin.

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Ah yes, "Argument from Authority".

The thing is I follow my Doctor's advice when he talks to me about medicine and my health when he has the test results from whatever in his hand. I listen to him when he talks about medical care in general and I'll argue with him over whos' the best player in the NHL when we talk sports.

#47 ikester7579

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Posted 05 November 2009 - 07:05 AM

Judging by the fact that i never run across a creationist who has more than a sketchy / inaccurate  / incomplete idea of what evolution is... AND... the fact that their social life, their dreams of eternal life, their whole construct of reality would collapse of evolution were accepted as real...

I would say that the near universal tendency of creationists to try to ridicule evolution is exactly from ignorance, and the fear of what understanding it would do to them.

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Sounds like the kettle is calling the pot black.

#48 ikester7579

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Posted 05 November 2009 - 07:13 AM

Formal education... GWB and Obama both have graduate degrees.

So go figure.  I think Moses didnt have a degree.

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Bush is the first president with a MBA. Does Obama have a MBA?

Also, what does Moses have to do with this? And remember, Moses grew up Egyptian. And lived in the Pharaoh's house. Which means he got the best education available for that time period. Which would be like going to the 3 top universities. So basically you picked the wrong person in the Bible to pick on.

#49 Guest_Alcatraz_*

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Posted 05 November 2009 - 07:20 AM

Bush is the first president with a MBA. Does Obama have a MBA?

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My Dad's bigger than your Dad??? :rolleyes:

#50 ikester7579

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Posted 05 November 2009 - 07:34 AM

Formal education... GWB and Obama both have graduate degrees.

So go figure.  I think Moses didnt have a degree.

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One thing ikester757 doesn't mention is that comparing a PhD in Physics from 1820 and even one from 1920 are night and day.  A PhD in Physics in 1820 was Classical Newtonian Dynamics.

When compared to what there is today, the claim that someone who went to a university almost 200 years ago didn't have a degree in something vs a PhD in Philosophy claiming Evolution doesn't work are not even in the same ballpark let alone same sport.

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The Wright brothers didn't have degrees in aeronautical engineering either, but their plane flew anyway.

Education is not always needed when a person's comprehension skills are on a high level. Like when I took a military test for mechanical workings of aircraft. Even though I had never taken a class on it, I aced it because my mechanical comprehension of things is very high. So they wanted to recruit me to fix and possibly designed aircraft engines. But I ended up not joining because my dad had a heart attack and I had to run his business until he recovered. By then I was already into working on cars as well. Might have been an adventure, but then again maybe not.

Was it education that made Einstein smart?

I can fix tvs, stereos and vcrs. Even though I never took school or read a book on it. So where does my knowledge come from? Where did Einsteins knowledge come from?

#51 ikester7579

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Posted 05 November 2009 - 07:35 AM

My Dad's bigger than your Dad???  :rolleyes:

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Again, when you cannot refute you crack jokes. How lame.

#52 Guest_Alcatraz_*

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Posted 05 November 2009 - 07:38 AM

...I can fix tvs, stereos and vcrs. Even though I never took school or read a book on it. So where does my knowledge come from? Where did Einsteins knowledge come from?

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Practice out of necessity.

We humans are quite clever and adaptable.

Here's an anecdotal scenario I lived in Germany for a while as a kid. I never took a class in German, but to help me get by, I picked the language up so as to be conversational.

On the other hand, French was part of my Education, therefore my French is more fluent than my German.

#53 Guest_Taikoo_*

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Posted 05 November 2009 - 07:39 AM

Ah yes, "Argument from Authority".

The thing is I follow my Doctor's advice when he talks to me about medicine and my health when he has the test results from whatever in his hand.  I listen to him when he talks about medical care in general and I'll argue with him over whos' the best player in the NHL when we talk sports.

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IFyou follow your doctor's advice, and believe all that he says about medicine implicitly and without question, then my friend you are probably going to have to find out the hard way what a mistake that is.


"A yes" doesnt negate an accurate description.

#54 ikester7579

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Posted 05 November 2009 - 07:46 AM

Practice out of necessity.

We humans are quite clever and adaptable.

Here's an anecdotal scenario I lived in Germany for a while as a kid. I never took a class in German, but to help me get by, I picked the language up so as to be conversational.

On the other hand, French was part of my Education, therefore my French is more fluent than my German.

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So can you tell me how many times I practiced?

Also, how does one play a piano when they never took lessons, or even played one before?

Your logic does not work here.

#55 Guest_Taikoo_*

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Posted 05 November 2009 - 07:49 AM

Bush is the first president with a MBA. Does Obama have a MBA?

Also, what does Moses have to do with this? And remember, Moses grew up Egyptian. And lived in the Pharaoh's house. Which means he got the best education available for that time period. Which would be like going to the 3 top universities. So basically you picked the wrong person in the Bible to pick on.

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hey let me agree with you if i want to!

#56 Guest_FrankH_*

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Posted 05 November 2009 - 07:55 AM

The Wright brothers didn't have degrees in aeronautical engineering either, but their plane flew anyway.

Education is not always needed when a person's comprehension skills are on a high level. Like when I took a military test for mechanical workings of aircraft. Even though I had never taken a class on it, I aced it because my mechanical comprehension of things is very high. So they wanted to recruit me to fix and possibly designed aircraft engines. But I ended up not joining because my dad had a heart attack and I had to run his business until he recovered. By then I was already into working on cars as well. Might have been an adventure, but then again maybe not.

Was it education that made Einstein smart?

I can fix tvs, stereos and vcrs. Even though I never took school or read a book on it. So where does my knowledge come from? Where did Einsteins knowledge come from?

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Wow! There was a degree in Aeronautical Engineering back before the turn of the last century?

Nope. There wasn't anything for aeronautics. The closest thing would be fluid dynamics which the Wright brothers soon learned were incorrect. Yes, many of the "greatest minds in science" said heavier than air flight was impossible, ascribing that to the divine in many cases.

But what did the Wright's do? They did research. They experimented, found better coefficients for airfoils. they made those airfoils from their research. Finally they produced their findings from field research and made a flying machine. They didn't stop because someone else thought it couldn't be done and just sit back because it's impossible. They did research and made it happen.

The "explosion" of knowledge is quickly outpacing the human capacity to absorb it all. In Newton's time, it was very liely there were people who were well versed in all of the knowledge humans had gathered up until that point.

Today, you'll be hard pressed to find a PhD who really knows what is going on outside their field of research. That is why the peer-review process and research papers are so important. Scientists rely on one another to do their best work and others to look for errors in their reasoning and any bias. See scientists are not all monolithic, pasty skin dweebs who sit around and drink brandy from sifters in their Ivory towers. They all have their biases, goals, dreams and such and it is up to all of them to erase those "personal touches" from what really is a paper that tells what they found and how they did it.

#57 Guest_Taikoo_*

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Posted 05 November 2009 - 08:06 AM

1) Evolution is true because it has mountains of evidence.
2) Evolution is as provable as electricity or gravity.
3) There are no missing links, all have been found. So therefore evolution is now an implied absolute true fact, and no one better disagree with that. Why? Because "I" say so. And the mass majority agree.

Not much difference from what I see.
At least we can admit to faith, and don't have to change faith into a scientific explanation.
1) It's in His inspired word.
2) Why do you worry if you truly believe He does not exist?
The difference between sin and evil is:

1) Sin is where you sin against yourself, with no agenda against God.
2) Evil is where you use sin to work against God, therefore your sin has an agenda.

Now have you ever done anything that can be considered working against God? Being here to convince Christians of evolution, to try and convert them is what? Good? In who's eyes?

So it's by your own actions that evil is done, not by my opinions.
I realize that science claims there are no absolutes. Which makes it hard for you to understand something absolutely. But what do you think.... Does absolutes exist or not? If not then you answer your own question as to the reason my answer will never be accepted.
Does truth border on absolutes? And what is the general opinion of evolution among evolutionists? Evolution is a true proven fact with mountains of evidence. So even though absolutes are not suppose to exist, it's still okay to imply one?

And the other part of not wanting Christians to down grade you. I have no problem with this request as soon as you guys quit it as well. Deal?

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I wonder sometimes how much Creos would have to complain about regarding atheism and evolution if they restricted themselves to things that are accurate.

1) Evolution is true because it has mountains of evidence.
2) Evolution is as provable as electricity or gravity.
3) There are no missing links, all have been found. So therefore evolution is now an implied absolute true fact, and no one better disagree with that. Why? Because "I" say so. And the mass majority agree.


Not so at all. Evolution is a very good THEORY because it has a lot of evidence for, none against.

Evolution is as provable as electricity... not sure what you mean... we know a lot about both but there are also some unknowns. Electrical theory involves some things that cannot be proven. Same with gravity and evolution.

Nobody says ToE is a proven true fact, and the last thing a good scientist of any sort wants to do is argue from authority. Richard Feynman is famously quoted as saying he has "no respect whatever for authority". (big difference between science and religion!)

Regarding "faith", "religion", "worship", "philosophy", "believe" and "science" I wonder why there is no equivocation rule on these words?

They are being used is such ways as to strip them of all meaning.

A Christian's FAITH is what will keep him believing no matter what.

What you guys call "faith" for a scientist is a conditional acceptance of an idea, all the time prepared to change it if the evidence points to it being wrong.

That is so different that the word "faith' has scarcely a scrap of meaning if you say that scientists amd Christians both have "faith".

#58 Guest_Alcatraz_*

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Posted 05 November 2009 - 08:09 AM

So can you tell me how many times I practiced?

Also, how does one play a piano when they never took lessons, or even played one before?

Your logic does not work here.

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Have they heard a piano being played before?

Perhaps they have and they are protoge who can work out the keys based on sound (Middle C for example).

Can that same, hypothetical, person read music?

I get the feeling you are angling towards Divine Inspiration here...Yes??

#59 Guest_FrankH_*

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Posted 05 November 2009 - 08:35 AM

IFyou follow your doctor's advice, and believe all that he says about medicine implicitly and without question, then my friend you are probably going to have to find out the hard way what a mistake that is.


"A yes" doesnt negate an accurate description.

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I will remind myself that I need to put in disclaimers.

When I say something that is nothing more than a quick example, I don't always get specific.

But no, I'll argue with my doctor when he's trying to get me on Cholesterol meds when I do 4 miles in 40 minutes, have a resting heart rate of 52, PB of 105/65, don't smoke, no gum disease, etc, but my LDL is "too high" when my grandfather lived to 90 with a 500 Cholesterol reading!

I refuse to go on those drugs.

#60 ikester7579

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Posted 05 November 2009 - 08:53 AM

Have they heard a piano being played before?

Perhaps they have and they are protoge who can work out the keys based on sound (Middle C for example).

Can that same, hypothetical, person read music?

I get the feeling you are angling towards Divine Inspiration here...Yes??

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Are you trying to be a time waster?




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