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Lucifer = The Devil..why?


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#41 jason777

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Posted 16 March 2010 - 09:26 PM

Do you think he was a good angel for opposing God?


Opposing the father is an understatement. Try murder instead and you'll see why heaven would rather drop dead than ever forgive him.

#42 Scanman

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Posted 17 March 2010 - 04:02 AM

I certainly don't see you posting against any other translation.


KJV only comes up under this topic, because it was the first English translation to continue the Vulgate error concerning the mistranslation of 'yalal' (howl you), a verb, into 'Lucifer' a proper noun.

I also get the impression that you are defending lucifer. Do you think he was a good angel for opposing God?


I can't defend a name that doesn't exist.

Satan is a tool for evil...there is no 'good' associated with him.

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#43 Scanman

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Posted 17 March 2010 - 04:04 AM

Opposing the father is an understatement. Try murder instead and you'll see why heaven would rather drop dead than ever forgive him.


Where does murder come into Satan's rebellion?

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#44 AFJ

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Posted 17 March 2010 - 07:22 PM

Actually the antichrist did fulfill that prophecy in 70AD....it was Nero.

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It was Titus and you are amilliniallist. Revelation is mostly fulfilled to you. I grew up in a church that taught that--or I should say taught no eschatology whatsoever--because I found out from their Bible students that it 'was all fulfilled in 70 AD.'

2 Thessalonians Ch 2

Paul associates 'the man of lawlessness' with the day of the Lord--not the destruction of the temple.

v3Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for (that day will not come) until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God.


Titus did not do this. This man will deceive people with false miracles--the ANTI christ with anti miracles.

v9The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, 10and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

The temple was destroyed to fulfill Christ's prophecy in Matthew 24 that "not one stone shall be left on another." And it was because that the nation as a whole rejected Him--which was not a surprise to God.

#45 Scanman

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Posted 17 March 2010 - 08:25 PM

It was Titus...


The army that sacked Jerusalem was led by General and 'future' emperor Titus. Vespasian was actually Caesar by 70 AD...but Nero started the ball rolling with the Jewish-Roman War, which lasted from 66AD-70AD.

and you are amilliniallist.


I am a Preterist.

Matthew 24 was fulfilled within a generation of Christ prophecy...70AD.

Revelation is mostly fulfilled to you. I grew up in a church that taught that--or I should say taught no eschatology whatsoever--because I found out from their Bible students that it 'was all fulfilled in 70 AD.'


I place more stock in the Gospels, Acts and the letters of Paul, Peter and James then I do in Revelation.

Revelation was considered 'Antilegomena' (disputed books) and it barely survived the canonization process. Don't get me wrong, I think it is an amazing book...but it has no bearing on one's salvation or the gospel message.

I know...I know...different topic for a different thread.


Paul associates 'the man of lawlessness' with the day of the Lord--not the destruction of the temple.


There are many 'day of the Lord' events.

(Isaiah 2:12; 13:6, 9; Ezekiel 13:5, 30:3; Joel 1:15, 2:1,11,31; 3:14; Amos 5:18,20; Obadiah 15; Zephaniah 1:7,14; Zechariah 14:1; Malachi. 4:5)

The destruction of Jerusalem and the temple certainly qualifies as a 'day of the Lord'....a day of judgement.

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#46 ikester7579

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Posted 18 March 2010 - 04:24 AM

Here we have a source that says the Hebrew name is heylel not eill. <_<
Enjoy.

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Sometimes I think it boils down to who you want to believe on the issue. Some people will always find a source that goes against the norm just to argue.

#47 Scanman

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Posted 18 March 2010 - 10:25 AM

Sometimes I think it boils down to who you want to believe on the issue. Some people will always find a source that goes against the norm just to argue.

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Actually the norm should be how the Hebrew is actually translated everywhere else in the scriptures...which is 'howl'. It is only in this one passage that the KJV has borrowed the error from the Vulgate and translated the same Hebrew word as 'Lucifer'.

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#48 AFJ

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Posted 18 March 2010 - 07:09 PM

The army that sacked Jerusalem was led by General and 'future' emperor Titus. Vespasian was actually Caesar by 70 AD...but Nero started the ball rolling with the Jewish-Roman War, which lasted from 66AD-70AD.
I am a Preterist.

Matthew 24 was fulfilled within a generation of Christ prophecy...70AD.
I place more stock in the Gospels, Acts and the letters of Paul, Peter and James then I do in Revelation.

Revelation was considered 'Antilegomena' (disputed books) and it barely survived the canonization process. Don't get me wrong, I think it is an amazing book...but it has no bearing on one's salvation or the gospel message.

I know...I know...different topic for a different thread.
There are many 'day of the Lord' events.

(Isaiah 2:12; 13:6, 9; Ezekiel 13:5, 30:3; Joel 1:15, 2:1,11,31; 3:14; Amos 5:18,20; Obadiah 15; Zephaniah 1:7,14; Zechariah 14:1; Malachi. 4:5)

The destruction of Jerusalem and the temple certainly qualifies as a 'day of the Lord'....a day of judgement.

Peace

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Matthew 24 starts out with question about "the end of the age, and the sign of [his] coming." Obviously Christ has not come. And 70 AD was not the end of the age.

Yes, you can say it was fulfilled in part in 70 AD. But 70 AD was a type and shadow of THE Antichrist, whom the Lord shall destroy at his coming. Just as was Antiochus Epiphanes, who offered a swine on the alter, was a type of the antichrist (abomination of desolation). But that was before Christ was born.

John says "You have heard that antichrist (singular) shall come, but now there are many antichrists (plural). Titus and Nero were antichrists--not THE Antichrist.

Again, many prophecies have more than one fulfillment. Think of the prophecies in Jeremiah, Isaiah, and Daniel that prophesy of the dispersion and return of Israel. Israel was dispersed and returned twice. Once to Assyria (the northern kingdom--Israel) and then Babylon (Judah also), and into Medo Persian reigns. Nehemiah then returns by order of Artexerxes (I'm not looking, so I might not have the name right) and begins to rebuild the wall of Jerusalem.

Then they were dispersed again after 70 AD. They began returning to Palestine in the 20th century by permission of Britain. In 1948, they were declared a sovereign nation. One needs to look at these things prayerfully. The Lord will come again, and Paul warns of a man of lawlessness, whom the Lord shall destroy. He will use counterfeit miracles to deceive many.

As far as Revelation, it did make the canon. It is also complementary to Daniel, and the much of it is interpreted by a thorough knowledge of Daniel--particularly the dreams and visions, and their interpretations.

#49 Scanman

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Posted 18 March 2010 - 10:10 PM

Matthew 24 starts out with question about "the end of the age, and the sign of [his] coming."  Obviously Christ has not come. And 70 AD was not the end of the age.


You need to study Preterism a little more...

70AD was the end of the Jewish 'Age'...and Christ came in judgement on the Jewish nation.

Yes, you can say it was fulfilled in part in 70 AD.  But 70 AD was a type and shadow of THE Antichrist, whom the Lord shall destroy at his coming.  Just as was Antiochus Epiphanes, who offered a swine on the alter, was a type of the antichrist (abomination of desolation).  But that was before Christ was born.

John says "You have heard that antichrist (singular) shall come, but now there are many antichrists (plural).  Titus and Nero were antichrists--not THE Antichrist.

Again, many prophecies have more than one fulfillment. Think of the prophecies in Jeremiah, Isaiah, and Daniel that prophesy of the dispersion and return of Israel.  Israel was dispersed and returned twice. Once to Assyria (the northern kingdom--Israel) and then Babylon (Judah also), and into Medo Persian reigns.  Nehemiah then returns by order of Artexerxes (I'm not looking, so I might not have the name right) and begins to rebuild the wall of Jerusalem.

Then they were dispersed again after 70 AD.  They began returning to Palestine in the 20th century by permission of Britain. In 1948, they were declared a sovereign nation. 


Jews have lived in the Holy lands since the dispersion...just not as an independant nation.

I don't place any prophetic significance in the 1948 restoration of Israel. The kingdom belongs to the body of Christ...not a political entity.

The world could end tomorrow or continue another million years.

One needs to look at these things prayerfully.  The Lord will come again, and Paul warns of a man of lawlessness, whom the Lord shall destroy.  He will use counterfeit miracles to deceive many. 


I gobbled up the 'Late Great PLanet Earth' fare, back in the 70's, along with Lindsey's other books...I immersed myself in eschatology.

The one thing that stuck in my craw from that point on, is this blind obsession that Christians have with supporting the nation of Israel...right or wrong. It is one thing to believe in a prophetic event, it is another thing to support it. The crucifixion of Christ was prophesied...would that have meant that it would have been ok to cheer it on?...of course not.

Also, the whole idea that God would bring back the temple and animal sacrifices , is ludicrous. Christ was the fulfillment of all of that.

As far as Revelation, it did make the canon.  It is also complementary to Daniel, and the much of it is interpreted by a thorough  knowledge of Daniel--particularly the dreams and visions, and their interpretations.


Some might say that the writer of Revelation 'borrowed' much from the book of Daniel.

One early church father, Dionysius of Alexandria was of the opinion that Revelation was not written by the apostle John but by another presbyter by the name of John. There were even those who believed it had been written by the heretic Cerinthus.

Peace

#50 AFJ

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Posted 19 March 2010 - 07:28 PM

You need to study Preterism a little more...

70AD was the end of the Jewish 'Age'...and Christ came in judgement on the Jewish nation.
Jews have lived in the Holy lands since the dispersion...just not as an independant nation.

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There is an end of the ceremonial law because of the eternal sacrifice of Christ. But as for the Jews...

Romans 11:28 "Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable."


...because of the promises to Abraham--they are still what? The "natural branches" (Rom. 11:17) on the original olive tree, and we Gentiles (non-Jews --for the readers Scanman) are a "wild" olive tree which has been grafted in through faith in Christ.

And the unbelieving Jews have been broken off, unless they repent.



I don't place any prophetic significance in the 1948 restoration of Israel. The kingdom belongs to the body of Christ...not a political entity.

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No offense, but that seems a bit extreme, considering the gifts and calling of God are 'irrevocable.' They are Abraham's physical seed, so God's will is for the natural branches to partake of the fatness of the olive tree. To say that a people that had not been a nation for 1900 years-- once again became a nation, and rebirthed ancient Hebrew is not something to watch is ignoring Christ's command to watch, and "see that no one deceives you, for many false prophets shall arise and deceive many...."

----------------------

Finally, 2 Thessalonians 2:3,4,8,9

You have to deal with these verses. It's not hidden in obscurity or symbolism. Rather it's a direct statement from the Apostle Paul--there should be NO confusion.

3Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

4who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

8Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;

9that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders....


1. The time is the end of the world, because Christ shall destroy this man of destruction with the breath of his mouth at his coming v4. Not at the 'end' of the Jewish age.

2. This man shall work miracles and he will sit in "God's temple." No, I am not saying we will return to the law. I just accept it for what it says. Unless you want to call Paul a heretic--that means the temple will be rebuilt--so Israel IS a prophetic time clock. Please pray about this.

Remember that the Pharisees missed Christ because they had a wrong interpretation of prophecy. They were close minded to what God was doing.

#51 Scanman

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Posted 19 March 2010 - 08:58 PM

No offense, but that seems a bit extreme, considering the gifts and calling of God are 'irrevocable.'  They are Abraham's physical seed, so God's will is for the natural branches to partake of the fatness of the olive tree.  To say that a people that had not been a nation for 1900 years-- once again became a nation, and  rebirthed ancient Hebrew is not something to watch is ignoring Christ's command to watch, and [color=blue]"see that no one deceives you, for many false prophets shall arise and deceive many...."

"A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God." Rom 2:28,29

"For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all." Rom 11:32

Sounds like a good case for ultimate reconciliation (Universalism).



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#52 ikester7579

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Posted 20 March 2010 - 12:59 AM

Actually the norm should be how the Hebrew is actually translated everywhere else in the scriptures...which is 'howl'. It is only in this one passage that the KJV has borrowed the error from the Vulgate and translated the same Hebrew word as 'Lucifer'.

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Since the original scrolls are not complete, that still can be questioned.

#53 ikester7579

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Posted 20 March 2010 - 01:03 AM

"A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God." Rom 2:28,29

"For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all." Rom 11:32

Sounds like a good case for ultimate reconciliation (Universalism).
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Universalism only works when one takes verses out of context of everything else written in the Bible. That's how cults work. To take only the verses that support what the individual wants to believe. And ignore the rest as if they do not even exist.

#54 Scanman

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Posted 20 March 2010 - 04:41 AM

Universalism only works when one takes verses out of context of everything else written in the Bible. That's how cults work. To take only the verses that support what the individual wants to believe. And ignore the rest as if they do not even exist.

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Since the original scrolls are not complete, that still can be questioned.

What is good for the goose...

Actually, there are many other scriptures that support ultimate reconciliation...but my original comment is way off the OP topic and should be addressed in another thread.

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#55 Scanman

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Posted 20 March 2010 - 04:45 AM

Since the original scrolls are not complete, that still can be questioned.

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Concerning Isaiah 14:12 and the disregard for how 'yalal' is translated everywhere else.

"To take only the verses that support what the individual wants to believe. And ignore the rest as if they do not even exist."...would be wrong. (just completing your quote).

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#56 AFJ

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Posted 20 March 2010 - 05:02 AM

AFJ
...No offense, but that seems a bit extreme, considering the gifts and calling of God are 'irrevocable.'  They are Abraham's physical seed, so God's will is for the natural branches to partake of the fatness of the olive tree.  To say that a people that had not been a nation for 1900 years-- once again became a nation, and  rebirthed ancient Hebrew is not something to watch is ignoring Christ's command to watch, and [color=blue]"see that no one deceives you, for many false prophets shall arise and deceive many...."

"A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God." Rom 2:28,29

"For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all." Rom 11:32

Sounds like a good case for ultimate reconciliation (Universalism).
Peace

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We are getting off the subject. Perhaps we should start another thread. I gave you the 2 Thessalonians passage about the man of lawlessness, which works more toward Satan and Lucifer. Since the man of lawlessness will do Satanic miracles. You did not comment.

______________

At any rate, to answer you--you must have missed what I said....

AFJ
...And the unbelieving Jews have been broken off, unless they repent.

The teaching in Romans 11 is legitimate doctrine. Read Galatians-- all Christians are counted as the seed of Abraham. But the teaching in Romans 11 is there to make us remember that God's covenant with Abraham is irrevocable:

1. That his seed shall be as the stars of heaven. Let me plug for Revelation here..it's the only book that shows a multitude of redeemed worshipers in Heaven.

2. That his seed would be given the land. I am not saying this thing is finished, but the Jews are there today as part of God's plan. It has nothing to do with our salvation--but it has everything to do with the signs of the times. Remember that God brought Nehemiah and Ezra back to Jerusalem by decree of a heathen king.

______________

AN INTRODUCTION OF A BIBLICAL CASE FOR THE REBIRTH OF ISRAEL BEING A STRIKE ON THE PROPHETIC TIME CLOCK
------The entire case is more elaborate--so line upon line, statute upon statute.

---The following verses are at time of the end, when the sky will be darkened and the Son of Man will come in his glory. All nations will be gathered against ISRAEL.

A. The time on the clock--the end of this present age.

Matthew 24:29, 30

29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

B. Notice again the time on the clock. The sky shall be darkened.

Joel 3:12-14

12 Let the nations be roused; let them advance into the Valley of Jehoshaphat, for there I will sit to judge all the nations on every side.

13 Swing the sickle, for the harvest is ripe. Come, trample the grapes, for the winepress is full and the vats overflow— so great is their wickedness!

14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision! For the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.

15 The sun and moon will be darkened, and the stars no longer shine.


C. How many nations, where, and to do what?

Joel 3:22

2 I will gather all nations and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat. There I will enter into judgment against them concerning my inheritance, my people Israel, for they scattered my people among the nations and divided up my land.

--Answer: All nations at the valley of Jehoshaphat (in Israel) in order to judge all nations.

The sun and moon will be darkened at this time (Joel 3). Matthew 24 says the sun and moon will be darkened just before his coming.

Therefore the rebirth of Israel is a significant strike on the prophetic clock. Furthermore, this is not at 70 AD--there can be no confusion about this--because it will be at the time when the sun and moon will not give their light--which immediately proceeds the second coming.

#57 Scanman

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Posted 20 March 2010 - 06:48 AM

We are getting off the subject. 


Yes we are.

I gave you the 2 Thessalonians passage about the man of lawlessness, which works more toward Satan and Lucifer.  Since the man of lawlessness will do Satanic miracles. 


...works more toward Satan...what is a Lucifer?...that doesn't exist in scripture. :lol:

You did not comment.


Sorry...

Why would Paul write about this, if the event was several thousand years away?

"Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour." 1 John 2:18

How is the 'last hour' a reference to something thousands of years into the future?

How is this comforting to anyone being persecuted at that time?...or was John just deceiving them to make them feel better?

An 'antichrist' is anyone who is against Christ.

The coming of Christ/God in 70AD is not their final coming.

Christ came to Paul on the road to Damascus.

Christ supposedly came to a certain 'John' on the island of Patmos.

As Christians, we seem to have it fixed in our heads that all of the prophetic 'returns' are only talking about the 'final' return.

Preterist Link concerning the antichrist

______________

At any rate, to answer you--you must have missed what I said....
The teaching in Romans 11 is legitimate doctrine.  Read Galatians-- all Christians are counted as the seed of Abraham.   But the teaching in Romans 11 is there to make us remember that God's covenant with Abraham is irrevocable:

1. That his seed shall be as the stars of heaven.  Let me plug for Revelation here..it's the only book that shows a multitude of redeemed worshipers in Heaven.

2.  That his seed would be given the land. I am not saying this thing is finished, but the Jews are there today as part of God's plan.  It has nothing to do with our salvation--but it has everything to do with the signs of the times. Remember that God brought Nehemiah and Ezra back to Jerusalem by decree of a heathen king.

______________

A BIBLICAL CASE FOR THE REBIRTH OF ISRAEL BEING A STRIKE ON THE PROPHETIC TIME CLOCK

---The following verses are at time of the end, when the sky will be darkened and the Son of Man will come in his glory.  All nations will be gathered against ISRAEL.

A. The time on the clock--the end of this present age.

Matthew 24:29, 30

29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

B. Notice again the time on the clock.  The sky shall be darkened.

Joel 3:12-14

12 Let the nations be roused; let them advance into the Valley of Jehoshaphat, for there I will sit to judge all the nations on every side.

13 Swing the sickle, for the harvest is ripe. Come, trample the grapes, for the winepress is full and the vats overflow— so great is their wickedness!

14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision! For the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.

15 The sun and moon will be darkened, and the stars no longer shine.


C. How many nations, where, and to do what?

Joel 3:22

2 I will gather all nations and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat. There I will enter into judgment against them concerning my inheritance, my people Israel, for they scattered my people among the nations and divided up my land.

--Answer:  All nations at the valley of Jehoshaphat (in Israel) in order to judge all nations. 

The sun and moon will be darkened at this time (Joel 3).  Matthew 24 says the sun and moon will be darkened just before his coming.

Therefore the rebirth of Israel is a significant strike on the prophetic clock. Furthermore, this is not at 70 AD--there can be no confusion about this--because it will be at the time when the sun and moon will not give their light--which immediately proceeds the second coming.

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...darkened moon, darkened sun...sigh...a common phrase used to denote something really, really bad is going to take place.

Destruction of Babylon...
"The stars of heaven and their constellations
will not show their light.
The rising sun will be darkened
and the moon will not give its light." Isaiah 13:10

Christ on the cross...
"From the sixth hour until the ninth hour darkness came over all the land." Matt 27:45

Demise of the Jewish age...
"And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me." Gen 37:9

The phrase of smiting the sun, moon, and stars is Jewish; for the Jews express the eclipses of the luminaries in this way, and say that when the luminaries "are smitten," it is an ill omen; when "the sun is smitten," it is an ill sign to the nations of the world; and when "the moon is smitten," it is a bad omen to the nations of Israel and so the phrase, "the day shone not," is also Jewish

Link


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#58 AFJ

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Posted 20 March 2010 - 09:11 AM

Yes we are.
...works more toward Satan...what is a Lucifer?...that doesn't exist in scripture.  :lol:
Sorry...

Why would Paul write about this, if the event was several thousand years away?

"Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour." 1 John 2:18

How is the 'last hour' a reference to something thousands of years into the future?

How is this comforting to anyone being persecuted at that time?...or was John just deceiving them to make them feel better?

An 'antichrist' is anyone who is against Christ.

The coming of Christ/God in 70AD is not their final coming.

Christ came to Paul on the road to Damascus.

Christ supposedly came to a certain 'John' on the island of Patmos.

As Christians, we seem to have it fixed in our heads that all of the prophetic 'returns' are only talking about the 'final' return.

Pretreist Link concerning the antichrist
...darkened moon, darkened sun...sigh...a common phrase used to denote something really, really bad is going to take place.

Destruction of Babylon...
"The stars of heaven and their constellations
    will not show their light.
    The rising sun will be darkened
    and the moon will not give its light." Isaiah 13:10

Christ on the cross...
"From the sixth hour until the ninth hour darkness came over all the land." Matt 27:45

Demise of the Jewish age...
"And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me." Gen 37:9

Link
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You still did not deal with the man of sin / lawlessness who puts himself up above all that is worshiped, and uses mighty signs and wonders to deceive people.

This is a shining pinnacle of a scripture, very direct and unable to be clouded by the systematic theologies of men.

#59 Scanman

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Posted 20 March 2010 - 10:51 AM

You still did not deal with the man of sin / lawlessness who puts himself up above all that is worshiped, and uses mighty signs and wonders to deceive people. 

This is a shining pinnacle of a scripture, very direct and unable to be clouded by the systematic theologies of men.

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This article says it best...

Paul wrote during the time of a literal, standing, second Temple.  He gave no hint that this event would occur centuries later in some other "rebuilt" temple. His first readers apparently expected this fulfillment in their lifetime. That's why some feared that that "day of the Lord" had already occurred. Also, let's note how Paul's prophetic words here match up with Jesus' Olivet Discourse (Mt. 24). Both speak of the same set of events, use similar language, and convey a strong sense of imminence.

History records that the Jewish rebellion against Rome and apostasy from the faith was already underway in the early 60s, and reached its climax in the Jewish-Roman War of A.D. 66 - 70.  We propose that Paul's "man of sin" was, most likely, a specific person who set himself up in the Temple that was standing when Paul was writing. He could have been (take your pick) Nero, Titus, a Zealot leader; the corrupt chief high priest, or a Christian Zealot. All except Nero physically entered the Temple. Though Paul never calls him "antichrist;' the Apostle John tells us that there were many "antichrists" at work at that time (1 Jn. 2:18; 4:3). No doubt this "man of sin" was one of them. But he was also a special person who had to come on the scene prior to the Lord's return in A.D. 70 and before the Temple was destroyed.

Verses 5-7. "Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way"

Paul had mentioned this power of lawlessness on other occasions (see 1 Th. 2:14-16; 1 Ti. 4:1). The Jews were revolting against Rome and rejecting the sacred practice of biblical Judaism. Some followers of Christ who remained zealous for the Temple system were departing from the new faith and falling back into the old ways. But behind it all was "the secret power of lawlessness." It was "already at work," there and then, but something and/or someone was holding the "man of sin" back at the time Paul wrote this letter (circa A.D. 51 - 52). Whatever that was, Paul reminded his first readers that they already knew its/his identity. So Paul didn't have to tell them. And he didn't.  Since they knew who or what it was, it could not possibly have been something or someone that would not exist for some nineteen or more centuries. But who or what was it?

Throughout Church history endless speculation has revolved around the identity of this restrainer. However, we do know that this restraint was in force when Paul wrote,- and was actively holding back a "man of sin" alive at that time. This fact is a time indicator and should answer the question of when.  Some have suggested that the "who" was Nero or the Roman government, which held back Jewish persecution of the early Jewish Christians. Futurists say it's the gospel, the Church, the Holy Spirit, or an angel. But if any of these is what was really meant, why did the writer use such veiled language? None of these things is ever portrayed in Scripture as restraining lawlessness or being removed from the world.

The best answer-we believe-is that it was both an office (the "what") and a person (the "one who" or "he").  More specifically, it was the institution of the Jewish priesthood led by Ananus, the high priest. The priesthood opposed the Jewish, Zealot-led rebellion. And Ananus wanted peace with Rome. As long as he and the priesthood stood in the way, the lawlessness of the Jewish Zealots was held back, the "work of Satan" couldn't reach its full realization, and the "man of sin" couldn't appear on the scene and cause the final destruction. In A.D. 68, however, Jewish Zealots, with the assistance of the Idumaeans, murdered Ananus and over 12,000 other priests and left their bodies unburied-a violation of the Jewish Law Thus, the priesthood was "taken out of the way" As Josephus wrote in his history of the fall of the city:

I should not mistake if I said that the death of Ananus was the beginning of the destruction of the city; and that from this very day may be dated the overthrow of her walls, and the ruin of her affairs, whereon they saw their high-priest, and the procurer of their preservation; slain in the midst of their city;. for he was thoroughly sensible that the Romans were not to be conquered. He also foresaw that of necessity a war would follow, and that unless the Jews made up matters with them very dexterously, they would be destroyed: to say all in a word, if Ananus had survived that would have certainly compounded matters... and I cannot but think that it was because God had doomed this city to destruction, as a polluted city, and was resolved to purge his sanctuary by fire, that he cut off these great defenders and wellwishers.

Verses 8-10. a Ad then the lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming [parousia].  The coming [parousia] of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved!" All this happened in the very Temple that was standing until A.D. 70. As the war between the Jews and Rome developed, a strong leader of the Jewish Zealots emerged who would fulfill Paul's prophecy. He would soon become the key man in inciting the Jews against Rome, in bringing abominations into the Temple area, and in causing the final destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple.  After Ananus' murder and the removal of the priesthood. Josephus records that a man named John, the son of Levi, fled to Jerusalem from the Roman conquered area of Gischala in Galilee and became the treacherous leader of the Jewish Zealots in control of the Temple area. Also Josephus wrote, "Now this was the work of God, who therefore preserved this John, that he might bring on the destruction of Jerusalem."

Josephus also records that before this John of Gischala, the son of Levi, was established as the Zealot leader in control of the Temple area (there were three Zealot factions), the power of Satan was already doing his deceitful and treacherous work. This John physically entered the Temple, presented himself to the Zealots as a God-sent ambassador; and persuaded them to defy the laws of Rome and go to war to gain independence. He also instigated the calling in the Idumaeans to keep the Jewish sympathizers from submitting to Rome. He ordered the death of Ananus and the removal of the priesthood. After these atrocities, he became the official leader of the Zealot group m control of theTemple area-john held the temple" and began disregarded the laws of Rome, God, and man, and promising deliverance from the Romans. Then he broke off from the Zealots and began "setting up a monarchial power." He "set on fire these houses that were full of corn, and of all other provision which would have been sufficient for a siege of many years"  He deceived the Jews about the power of the Roman armies In possession of the Temple and the adjoining parts, he cut the throats of anyone suspected of going over to the Romans.13 He performed many sacrileges, such as melting down the sacred utensils used in Temple service, and defiled the Temple.

In short, this John established himself in the Temple, the one standing when Paul wrote, and put himself above Rome and above God, thereby taking the place of God in the Temple.  All this happened, right then and there, and exactly as Paul had said the "man of sin" would do.

After the coming of the Lord and the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in A.D. 70, John of Gischala was "condemned to perpetual imprisonment" by the Roman authorities. Thus was fulfilled Paul's prophetic and symbolic language that this man would be destroyed by "the spirit of his Jesus mouth and brightness of his [parousia] coming" (see Isa. 11:4; 30:27-33; Hos. 6:5; also Da. 7:8, 19-28).

Verses 11-12. "For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but delighted In wickedness."

Josephus records that the Roman General Titus had no intention of destroying the Temple. The Romans wanted to preserve it as a trophy and monument of their conquest. Even Josephus personally pleaded with John of Gischala to surrender.  But such a "madness" swept through him and his Jewish followers that they taunted the powers of Rome and refused to listen. This man, John, through the power of Satan and the delusion sent by God upon the Jewish people, forced the Roman armies to act. Instead of accepting Jesus as Messiah, King, and Deliverer, the unbelieving Jews placed their hopes in this false messiah a man of deceit and wickedness. They looked to the "man of sin" to lead them to victory and independence. The priesthood, which stood in their way, had been removed. And by August or September of A.D. 70, Paul's entire "man of sin" prophecy of  2nd Thessalonians 2:1-12 was fulfilled. The city and the Temple were burned and destroyed. The covenant nation of Israel and biblical Judaism were forever destroyed.

Only within this first century context does the Apostle Paul's "man of sin prophecy make sense and have its greatest significance. No justification exists for separating Paul's words from either the Temple standing at the time of his writing or the end of the Jewish age. John of Gischala, the son of Levi, was a contemporary of Paul. He was Paul's "man of sin." The eyewitness account of Josephus, a Jewish-Roman historian, truthfully and impartially documents his treachery and his critical role in
Jerusalem's demise. No one else in history-Gains Caesar, Nero, Titus, or Domitian comes as close to fulfilling this prophecy as this most influential and deceiving Zealot leader John of Gischala took over the forces of iniquity He stood in the Temple itself and exalted himself above all that is called God. He put himself above both God and Caesar.  He regarded neither the laws of God nor those of man. He therefore "set himself up" in the Temple, taking the place of God.

Judas betrayed Jesus. John of Gischala betrayed the Jews, fulfilling Paul's "man of sin" prophecy to a tee.

In dramatic paralleled fashion, Scripture gives this "man of sin" John of Gischala, the son of Levi- the name of" the one doomed to destruction" or "the son of perdition," the same name given to another infamous betrayer, Judas Iscariot (compare Jn. 17:12 with 2Th. 2:3 KJV). Both appeared in the same "last days" time frame of the Old Covenant age. Judas betrayed Jesus. John of Gischala betrayed the Jews, fulfilling Paul's "man of sin" prophecy to a tee. 

He was that 1st-century man who had to be revealed before the day of Christ in A.D. 70, and who was destroyed when it came. No future "man of sin" need come and fulfill this prophecy; it has already been fulfilled.

Man of Lawlessness Article

Some of these references to men and what was going on at the time that Paul write to the Thessalonians, may seem obscure to Christians in modern times, but they were not obscure to those living in the 1st century.

Peace

#60 AFJ

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Posted 20 March 2010 - 07:48 PM

This article says it best...

Man of Lawlessness Article

Some of these references to men and what was going on at the time that Paul write to the Thessalonians, may seem obscure to Christians in modern times, but they were not obscure to those living in the 1st century.

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I was looking for the counterfeit miracles. i have read all this kind of writing a long time ago. I rejected it as a homogenized undefined mishmash. The scripture will be vindicated.

Firstly, I have never appreciated the way some theologians ascribe that personal feeling or circumstance somehow color prophecy. What is then the difference between it and other writings?

It is not a horoscope. Either it is from God or it is not.

Secondly, I rejected it because anything that would not be convenient for their theology is watered down or accounted as symbolism. A perfect example is interpreting the quote of Josephus, "this was the work of God..." for the afore mentioned John in your article--as a fulfillment of the scripture in 2 Thessalonians that talks about a man that will do "all lying wonders" and by them deceive the nations.

But because you water down the most direct of scriptures, this lays a foundation for total denial of the book of Revelation--which further elaborates on the dragon and the beast which fights against the woman clothed by the moon and the sun, with the 12 stars under her feet (something you touched on earlier). This is nothing but the prophetic picture of Joseph's dream--which makes the interpretation the nation of Israel. Jacob and Rachel being the sun and moon and the 12 stars the 12 tribes of Israel.

Because you quench the most direct statement and most concise nutshell verbage concerning this man of sin, you easily reject the more obscure writings, which by the way a systematic theologian will never interpret correctly. He is too caught up in his own system--just like the Pharisees or Sadducees.

Only by a complete personal knowledge of scripture from cover to cover will one understand some of it's contents--but what is revealed to those who are Biblicists, who trust that the writings are inspired fo the Holy Spirit--to them the interpretation is sure--mainly because the ministry of the Spirit to remember comparative scripture comes like a picture. All the while those who trust in the teaching of men who wrestle the truth--from them it remains hidden.




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