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A Universe From Nothing


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#1 jason78

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Posted 12 November 2009 - 07:19 PM

I found this video on cosmology that some people might find interesting.

7ImvlS8PLIo

Not for the faint of heart, it does contain an introduction by Richard Dawkins, a swear word, maths, and cruelty to biologists.  That notwithstanding, it is a very interesting introduction to cosmology.

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I posted this video in the Replying to The Speed Of Light thread of the Young Earth vs Old Earth forum to try and give everyone an insight into cosmology and why cosmologists are pursuing the theories that they are. Rather than derail that thread with a discussion of the video, I thought it might be nice if we could discuss it here.

#2 Guest_FrankH_*

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Posted 13 November 2009 - 06:30 AM

Here's a primer:

Space is not filled with "nothing". It is in fact a "foamy see" of particles winking in and out of existence. We've measured the energy of these particles. We even know about "vacuum energy". Go ahead, read up on that one.

Yes, this is difficult science and if you don't want to believe it, fine. But you can't deny that fact that science found these things. So what did the universe come from? We don't have all the answers but the video is a good start.

Yes, I know AIG makes and EFT loves to show videos too. Here's the catch, this video is not just someone's wistful thinking. There are a lot of peer-reviewed, critiqued and vigorously looked into papers that help us understand what's around us.

Yes, the "god of the gaps" is getting smaller all the time.

Here's a place to begin your search: http://adsabs.harvar...ls_service.html

Now get something like that from Lisle.

#3 AFJ

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Posted 15 November 2009 - 04:28 PM

Here's a primer:

Space is not filled with "nothing".  It is in fact a "foamy see" of particles winking in and out of existence.  We've measured the energy of these particles.  We even know about "vacuum energy".  Go ahead, read up on that one.

Yes, this is difficult science and if you don't want to believe it, fine.  But you can't deny that fact that science found these things.  So what did the universe come from?  We don't have all the answers but the video is a good start.

Yes, I know AIG makes and EFT loves to show videos too.  Here's the catch, this video is not just someone's wistful thinking.  There are a lot of peer-reviewed, critiqued and vigorously looked into papers that help us understand what's around us.

Yes, the "god of the gaps" is getting smaller all the time.

Here's a place to begin your search:  http://adsabs.harvar...ls_service.html

Now get something like that from Lisle.

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Enough with the peer review implications. Check this out FrankH. [url=http://www.creationresearch.org/crsq.html]Peers[URL] Most creationists are not going to get a paper on origins or flood geology in a uniform or evo journal.

#4 Guest_martemius_*

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Posted 15 November 2009 - 05:08 PM

Most creationists are not going to get a paper on origins or flood geology in a uniform or evo journal.

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Of course, that's largely because most creationist papers don't have a very good base in science...

#5 Ron

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Posted 16 November 2009 - 10:45 AM

Of course, that's largely because most creationist papers don't have a very good base in science...

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That is incorrect and prejudice on your part martemius. Just because creationist papers aren't loaded with evolution theology (in said papers) in no way dilutes the scientific base of said papers. Therefore, you r response can be construed as a type of equivocation.

#6 jason78

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Posted 16 November 2009 - 10:47 AM

Of course, that's largely because most creationist papers don't have a very good base in science...

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Maybe a better way of saying that is that creationist papers don't stand up to peer review.

#7 Ron

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Posted 16 November 2009 - 10:51 AM

Maybe a better way of saying that is that creationist papers don't stand up to peer review.

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Maybe not when using the macro-evolutionary theological viewpoint. It most likely would stand up to peer review otherwise

#8 A.Sphere

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Posted 18 November 2009 - 10:37 AM

That is incorrect and prejudice on your part martemius. Just because creationist papers aren't loaded with evolution theology (in said papers) in no way dilutes the scientific base of said papers. Therefore, you r response can be construed as a type of equivocation.

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Could you please link me a cosmology paper that was rejected from the journals that I may read - one that promotes your ideas about cosmology, or ideas that jive with your creationist beliefs? Also, evolution theology? What is that? What does that have to do with cosmology?

#9 Ron

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Posted 18 November 2009 - 10:57 AM

Also, evolution theology?  What is that? 

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Evolution theology is anything devoted to the dogmatic defense of the pseudo-science of macro-evolution (or the support of micro + millions of years = macro) as fact. And an evolutheist is the person that adheres to such religion.

What does that have to do with cosmology?

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If someone attempts to tie macro-evolution into cosmology (i.e. see Transpermia etc..) and attempts to treat it as fact, they are a theistic evo fundamentalist as well.

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Posted 18 November 2009 - 10:59 AM

Evolution theology is anything devoted to the dogmatic defense of the pseudo-science of macro-evolution (or the support of micro + millions of years = macro) as fact. And an evolutheist is the person that adheres to such religion.

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Cute. But can you answer his other question too?

#11 Ron

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Posted 19 November 2009 - 10:27 AM

Cute.  But can you answer his other question too?

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Both questions were answered. It seems though, that you simply don't like the answers.

#12 A.Sphere

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Posted 19 November 2009 - 01:32 PM

Evolution theology is anything devoted to the dogmatic defense of the pseudo-science of macro-evolution (or the support of micro + millions of years = macro) as fact. And an evolutheist is the person that adheres to such religion.
If someone attempts to tie macro-evolution into cosmology (i.e. see Transpermia etc..) and attempts to treat it as fact, they are a theistic evo fundamentalist as well.

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Then this should be simple for you then - can you give me a cosmology paper from the journals that you have read that promotes this "Evolution Theology" and explain which part, or equation, exaclty encodes this belief?

#13 A.Sphere

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Posted 19 November 2009 - 01:34 PM

Both questions were answered. It seems though, that you simply don't like the answers.

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Actually you didn't answer the main question:

Could you please link me a cosmology paper that was rejected from the journals that I may read - one that promotes your ideas about cosmology, or ideas that jive with your creationist beliefs?


And the answers for the other two were just statements without examples - empty rhetoric. Please give examples of your claims.

#14 Otto13

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Posted 19 November 2009 - 01:40 PM

Evolution theology is anything devoted to the dogmatic defense of the pseudo-science of macro-evolution (or the support of micro + millions of years = macro) as fact. And an evolutheist is the person that adheres to such religion.
If someone attempts to tie macro-evolution into cosmology (i.e. see Transpermia etc..) and attempts to treat it as fact, they are a theistic evo fundamentalist as well.

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Interesting.
But since there is no "pseudo-science of macro-evolution" I guess therefore there is no such thing as "evolution theology" or an "evolutheist".
Thanks ever so.

#15 Guest_martemius_*

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Posted 19 November 2009 - 02:38 PM

Both questions were answered. It seems though, that you simply don't like the answers.

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*Ahem* "Could you please link me a cosmology paper that was rejected from the journals that I may read - one that promotes your ideas about cosmology, or ideas that jive with your creationist beliefs?"

#16 Ron

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Posted 19 November 2009 - 03:31 PM

Then this should be simple for you then - can you give me a cosmology paper from the journals that you have read that promotes this "Evolution Theology" and explain which part, or equation, exaclty encodes this belief?

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This should be hard for you. Can you show me a cosmology paper from the journals that doesn't imply or promote millions of years and then trends to evolutionisim?


*Ahem* "Could you please link me a cosmology paper that was rejected from the journals that I may read - one that promotes your ideas about cosmology, or ideas that jive with your creationist beliefs?"

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*Ahem* "Could you please link me a cosmology paper that doesn't pander to your evolutheistic beliefs?"

Anyway...

1. Alexanian, M. 2002. Seven More Views on Intelligent Design. Physics Today (Letter). 55:10-11.

2. Chaffin, E. 2003. The Oklo Constraints on Alpha-Decay Half-Lives. American Physical Society, The 70th Annual Meeting of the Southeastern Section, November 6-8, Wilmington, North Carolina

3. J.G. Hartnett, “Carmeli’s accelerating universe is spatially flat without dark matter”, Int. J. Theor. Phys., Vol. 44, no. 4, April, pp. 485-492, 2005.

4. J.G. Hartnett, “The distance modulus determined from Carmeli's cosmology fits the accelerating universe data of the high-redshift type Ia supernovae without dark matter.” Found. Phys. vol 36. no. 6, pp. 839-861, June 2006. arxiv: astro-ph/0501526

5. J.G. Hartnett, “Spiral galaxy rotation curves determined from Carmelian general relativity”, Int. J. Theor. Phys., vol. 45, no. 11, pp.2118-2136, November 2006. arxiv: astro-ph/0511756

6. J.G. Hartnett, “The redshift-distance relation extended to higher redshifts in Cosmological General Relativity,” in the Proceedings of the 9th Symposium on the Frontiers of Fundamental Physics, Udine, Italy, AIP Conf. Proc. 1018, pp. 57-66, 2008.

7. J.G. Hartnett, M.E. Tobar, “Gravitational waves in Cosmological General Relativity”, in the Proceedings of the 8th Symposium on the Frontiers of Fundamental Physics, Madrid, Spain, AIP Conf. Proc. 905, 30-32, 2007. (note: Mr. Tobar's opinion concerning creationism and ID is unknown)

8. J.G. Hartnett, “Spiral galaxy rotation curves described using cosmological general relativity”, in the Proceedings of the 8th Symposium on the Frontiers of Fundamental Physics, Madrid, Spain, AIP Conf. Proc. 905, 27-29, 2007.

9. J.G. Hartnett, “Carmeli’s cosmology: The universe is spatially flat without dark matter”, published by Springer-Verlag in the Proceedings of the 6th Symposium on the Frontiers of Fundamental Physics, Udine, Italy, pp. 21-28, 2004.

10. J.G. Hartnett, “Electromagnetic waves in an expanding 5D universe,” New Advances in Physics, in press, 2008

11. J.G. Hartnett, “Extending the redshift-distance relation in Cosmological General Relativity to higher redshifts,” Found. Phys. Vol. 38, No. 3, pp.201-215, March, 2008.

12. J.G. Hartnett, “Spheroidal and elliptical galaxy radial velocity dispersion determined from Cosmological General Relativity,” Int. J. Theor. Phys. Vol. 47, No. 5, pp. 1252-1260, 2008.

13. Setterfield and Dzimano , "The Redshift and the Zero Point Energy ", Journal of Theoretics, 15th December 2003

14. Setterfield, "General Relativity and the Zero Point Energy", Journal of Theoretics, Dec. 2, 2003

15. Setterfield, "Reviewing the Zero Point Energy", Journal of Vectorial Relativity, JVR 2(2007) 3 1-28

16. Setterfield, "Reviewing a Plasma Universe with Zero Point Energy", Journal of Vectorial Relativity, JVR 3(2008) 3 1-19

17. Setterfield, "Exploring The Vacuum", Journal of Theoretics, Dec. 26, 2002

18. Gentry, R. V. 1997. "A New Redshift Interpretation." Modern Physics Letters A, Vol. 12, No. 37, 2919.

19. Gentry, R.V. 1984a. "Radioactive Halos in a Radiochronological and Cosmological Perspective." Proceedings of the 63rd Annual Meeting of the Pacific Division, American Association for the Advancement of Science 1, 38

20. Gentry, R.V. 1974. "Radiohalos in Radiochronological and Cosmological Perspective." Science 184, 62.

21. Herrmann "The best possible unification for any collection of physical theories,"Internat. J. Math. and Math. Sci., 17(2004):861-872.

22. Herrmann "Ultralogics and probability models," Internat. J. Math. and Math. Sci., 27(5)(2001):321-325.

23. Herrmann "Physics is legislated by a cosmogony," Speculations in Science and Technology, 11(1) (1988), 17-24.

24. Herrmann "The reasonableness of metaphysical evidence," J. of the Amer. Scientific Affiliation, 34(1)(1982), 12-23.

25. Herrmann "Solutions to the 'General Grand Unification Problem,' and the Questions 'How Did Our Universe Come Into Being?' and 'Of What is Empty Space Composed?" Presented before the MAA, at Western Maryland College, 12 Nov. (1994)

26. Herrmann "The NSP-World and Action-at-a-Distance." in Instantaneous Action at a Distance in Modern Physics: "Pro" and "Contra" Edited by Chubykalo, A., N. V. Pope and R. Smirnov-Rueda, (In CONTEMPORARY FUNDAMENTAL PHYSICS - V. V. Dvoeglazov (Ed.)) Nova Science Books and Journals, New York, (1999):223-235.

27. Herrmann "Hyperfinite and standard unifications for physical theories,"Internat. J. Math. and Math. Sci., 28(2)(2001):93-102.

28. Herrmann "A solution to the grand unification problem, Abstracts of Papers Presented AMS, 7(2)(March 1986):238

29. Herrmann "A solution to the general grand unification problem, Abstracts of Papers Presented AMS, 15(5)(Aug. 1994):482

30. Chaffin, Eugene F. and Daniel S. Banks, "A Mathematica Program Using Exponentially Diffuse Boundary Square Well Eigenstates to Model Alpha-Particle Tunneling Half Life Variability", (2002) nucl-th/0206020. (Note: Banks opinion on creationism is unknown)

31. Chaffin, Eugene F. Nicholas W. Gothard, Joshua Tuttle, "A Mathematica Program Using Isotropic Harmonic Oscillator Eigenstates to Model Alpha-Particle Tunneling Half Life Variability", (2001) nucl-th/0105070 (Note: Nicholas,Gothard, and Tuttle's opinion on creationism is unknown)

32. F. J. Tipler, "The Star of Bethlehem: A Type Ia/Ic Supernova in the Andromeda Galaxy?," Observatory, Vol. 125 (June 2005), pp. 168-174.*

33. Frank Tipler, "The Omega Point and Christianity," Gamma, Vol. 10, No. 2 (April 2003), pp. 14-23;*

34. Frank J. Tipler, "How to Construct a Falsifiable Theory in Which the Universe Came into Being Several Thousand Years Ago," PSA: Proceedings of the Biennial Meeting of the Philosophy of Science Association, Vol. 1984, Vol. Two: Symposia and Invited Papers (1984), pp. 873-902. * (note: dispite the name, the author does not advocate a young earth)

35. Frank J. Tipler, "Extraterrestrial Intelligent Beings do not Exist," Quarterly Journal of the Royal Astronomical Society, Vol. 21 (September 1980), pp. 267-281.*

36. Frank J. Tipler, "Anthropic-Principle Arguments Against Steady-State Cosmological Theories," Observatory, Vol. 102 (April 1982), pp. 36-39.*

37. Frank J. Tipler, "Additional Remarks on Extraterrestrial Intelligence," Quarterly Journal of the Royal Astronomical Society, Vol. 22 (September 1981), pp. 279-292.*

38. Frank J. Tipler, "A Brief History of the Extraterrestrial Intelligence Concept," Quarterly Journal of the Royal Astronomical Society, Vol. 22 (June 1981), pp. 133-145.*

39. Norman, T. and Setterfield, B., The atomic constants, light and time, SRI International Invited Research Report, Menlo Park, 1986.

40. J.G. Hartnett, “Spiral Galaxy Rotation Curves in the Brane World Theory in Five Dimensions,” invited chapter in Relativity: Modern Large-Scale Spacetime Structure of the Cosmos, Editor: M. Carmeli, World Scientific, Singapore, Chapter 10, pp. 297-317, 2008.

41. J.G. Hartnett and Firmin Oliveira, “Testing CGR against High Redshift Observations,” invited chapter in Relativity: Modern Large-Scale Spacetime Structure of the Cosmos, Editor: M. Carmeli, World Scientific, Singapore, Chapter 13, pp. 343-361, 2008. (Note: Oliveira's opinion on creationism is unknown)

42. J.G. Hartnett, “Fourier analysis of the large scale spatial distribution of galaxies in the universe,” in the Proceedings of the 2nd Crisis in Cosmology Conference, Port Angeles, WA USA, in press, 2008.

43. J.G. Hartnett, “The distance modulus determined from Carmeli’s cosmology fits the accelerating universe data of the high-redshift type Ia supernovae without dark matter”, abstract published in the Proceedings of the Australian Institute of Physics Congress, Canberra, Jan 2005.

44. J.G. Hartnett, F.J. Oliveira, “Luminosity distance, angular size and surface brightness in Cosmological General Relativity”, Found. Phys. Vol 37, No. 3, pp. 446-454, 2007. (note: Oliveira's opinion on creationism is unknown)

45. J.G. Hartnett, “The Carmeli metric correctly describes spiral galaxy rotation curves”, Int. J. Theor. Phys., vol. 44, no. 3, March, pp. 349-362, 2005

46. Gentry, R. V. 2003. "Discovery of a Major Contradiction in Big Bang Cosmology Points to the New Cosmic Center Universe Model." CERN Preprint, Ext-2003-021

47. Gentry, R. V. 2003. "New Cosmic Center Universe Model Matches Eight of Big Bang's Major Predictions Without the F-L Paradigm." CERN Preprint, Ext-2003-022

48. Gentry, R.V. 1970. "Giant Radioactive Halos: Indicators of Unknown Alpha-Radioactivity?" Science 169, 670.

49. Gentry, R.V. 1971. "Radiohalos: Some Unique Pb Isotope Ratios and Unknown Alpha Radioactivity." Science 173, 727.

50. Gentry, R.V. 1978. "Implications on Unknown Radioactivity of Giant and Dwarf Haloes in Scandinavian Rocks." Nature 274, 457

#17 jason78

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Posted 19 November 2009 - 03:38 PM

Interesting.
But since there is no "pseudo-science of macro-evolution" I guess therefore there is no such thing as "evolution theology" or an "evolutheist".
Thanks ever so.

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Oh don't be mean! Ron loves making up his own words <_<

#18 A.Sphere

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Posted 19 November 2009 - 03:54 PM

This should be hard for you. Can you show me a cosmology paper from the journals that doesn't imply or promote millions of years?

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Oh I see - so if it differs from your belief system it is automatically Evolution Theology. <_< Fantastic science there.

Here is a paper:

http://scitation.aip...=cvips&gifs=yes

The question still stands however. Your ability to dodge questions is uncanny. Just link a creationist cosmology paper so that I can read it - more points if it was rejected from a journal. Or, link a cosmology paper that in your opinion contains clear evidence of "Evolution Theology" - oh and be specific. If you don't understand the paper then don't bother.

#19 Ron

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Posted 19 November 2009 - 07:16 PM

Oh I see - so if it differs from your belief system it is automatically Evolution Theology.   <_<   Fantastic science there.

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It (macro-evolution) is speculation, and therefore not science, but it is pretty “fantastic”. And yes, it’s just another belief system.

P.S. nice link :o
“The online system may be temporarily unavailable.
Please check back in a few minutes.
If you need additional assistance, please contact Scitation Customer Service: help@scitation.org
Phone: 1-800 874-6383 (U.S. and Canada)
516-576-2664 (Outside the U.S. and Canada)”

#20 Ron

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Posted 19 November 2009 - 07:17 PM

Oh don't be mean!  Ron loves making up his own words <_<

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If the words fit Jason... If words fit :o




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