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What Is The Evidence For Creationism?


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#201 bobabelever

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Posted 20 December 2009 - 12:27 PM

Well, I would respond by saying that the creationists are misinterpreting the data to fit a preconceived religious dogma.

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And we say that the evolutionists "are misinterpreting the data to fit a preconceived religious dogma"

There is a track record of religion opposing new scientific discoveries which are in opposition to the scripture.

There is a track record of evolutionists creating fraudulent evidences to support their psuedo science.

But no-one now would claim that the earth is fixed and immobile like it says in the bible, would they?

Verse please?

#202 larrywj2

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Posted 20 December 2009 - 12:35 PM

Well, I would respond by saying that the creationists are misinterpreting the data to fit a preconceived religious dogma.

There is a track record of religion opposing new scientific discoveries which are in opposition to the scripture - just look at all the fuss about heliocentrism. But no-one now would claim that the earth is fixed and immobile like it says in the bible, would they?

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Which Bible are you refering to? I don't have the translation that claims Earth is fixed and immobile.

#203 JMcP

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Posted 20 December 2009 - 12:47 PM

1 Chronicles 16:30: "He has fixed the earth firm, immovable."
Psalm 93:1: "Thou hast fixed the earth immovable and firm ..."
Psalm 96:10: "He has fixed the earth firm, immovable ..."
Psalm 104:5: "Thou didst fix the earth on its foundation so that it never can be shaken."
Isaiah 45:18: "...who made the earth and fashioned it, and himself fixed it fast..."

Come off it guys. You must be aware of the major problems. Galileo was put on trial for heresy

http://en.wikipedia...._Bible_argument

#204 bobabelever

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Posted 20 December 2009 - 01:04 PM

1 Chronicles 16:30: "He has fixed the earth firm, immovable."
Psalm 93:1: "Thou hast fixed the earth immovable and firm ..."
Psalm 96:10: "He has fixed the earth firm, immovable ..."
Psalm 104:5: "Thou didst fix the earth on its foundation so that it never can be shaken."
Isaiah 45:18: "...who made the earth and fashioned it, and himself fixed it fast..."

Come off it guys. You must be aware of the major problems. Galileo was put on trial for heresy

http://en.wikipedia...._Bible_argument

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As my father-in-law just called and will be here in 5 minutes, I'll respectfully reserve my obligation to answer later - but I will.

#205 larrywj2

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Posted 20 December 2009 - 01:23 PM

1 Chronicles 16:30: "He has fixed the earth firm, immovable."

So you choose to verse mine as your weapon. A bit like showing up to a gun fight with a knife. Read a ltittle further, the passage also claims the trees will "cry out and rejoice". The context gives poetic ring.

Psalm 93:1: "Thou hast fixed the earth immovable and firm ..."
Psalm 96:10: "He has fixed the earth firm, immovable ..."
Psalm 104:5: "Thou didst fix the earth on its foundation so that it never can be shaken."
Isaiah 45:18: "...who made the earth and fashioned it, and himself fixed it fast..."

Two of those verses (Psalms 96:10 & Isaiah 45:18 do not discuss the fixidness of Earth in the translations I checked. None of them appear to be a statement of scientific evidence. They do all conform to the parameters of poetry and allegory. A word of advice. Don't quote Psalms regarding science, probably safer to steer clear of the prophets too. Alot of imagery involved.

I could make same claims to explain the term fixed, or immobile or set. But as these verses are not statement of science, there is no need.


Come off it guys. You must be aware of the major problems. Galileo was put on trial for heresy

http://en.wikipedia...._Bible_argument

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Galileo's "heresy" was against the Catholic Church, not the Bible.

Try again?

#206 JMcP

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Posted 20 December 2009 - 02:11 PM

Try again?

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Nope. No need.

http://en.wikipedia....armine.27s_view

"Further on he says that interpreting heliocentrism as physically real would be "a very dangerous thing, likely not only to irritate all scholastic philosophers and theologians, but also to harm the Holy Faith by rendering Holy Scripture false"

#207 larrywj2

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Posted 20 December 2009 - 02:56 PM

Nope. No need.

http://en.wikipedia....armine.27s_view

"Further on he says that interpreting heliocentrism as physically real would be "a very dangerous thing, likely not only to irritate all scholastic philosophers and theologians, but also to harm the Holy Faith by rendering Holy Scripture false"

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Unless you actually read the passage you quoted. Those are not Galileo's words, they are the a warning or accusation of Bellarmine arguing for geocentrism, concerning Galileo's belief. Bellarmine equated the Church with Holy Scripture. They are not equal.

Two strikes.

#208 JMcP

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Posted 20 December 2009 - 03:21 PM

Unless you actually read the passage you quoted.  Those are not Galileo's words, they are the a warning or accusation of Bellarmine arguing for geocentrism, concerning Galileo's belief.  Bellarmine equated the Church with Holy Scripture.  They are not equal.

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Of course I read it, and that is the whole point. Bellarmine was arguing that the Heliocentric Theory (as it was at the time) contradicted scripture (which it clearly does, unless you reinterpret scripture in an incredibly convoluted manner).

This was why there was such a fuss about the Heliocentric Theory, because it was held to be heretical.

I have chosen this example to show that religion has a documented track record in opposing science, as the is a strong vested interest whenever science comes up with Theories which oppose scripture.

When Steven Hawking spoke at the Vatican, he jokingly referred to the trial:

http://www.timesonli...icle5054745.ece

#209 bobabelever

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Posted 21 December 2009 - 07:41 AM

JMcP said that the Bible says that the Earth is "fixed and immobile", then referred to these verses:
1 Chronicles 16:30: "He has fixed the earth firm, immovable."
Psalm 93:1: "Thou hast fixed the earth immovable and firm ..."
Psalm 96:10: "He has fixed the earth firm, immovable ..."
Psalm 104:5: "Thou didst fix the earth on its foundation so that it never can be shaken."
Isaiah 45:18: "...who made the earth and fashioned it, and himself fixed it fast..."

Let me take them 1 by 1 (I use the King James version).

1 Chronicles 16:30
Fear before him, all the earth: the world also shall be stable, that it be not moved.

-"that it be not moved", from its place in the universe. (easy enough)

Psalm 93:1
The LORD reigneth, he is clothed with majesty; the LORD is clothed with strength, wherewith he hath girded himself: the world also is stablished, that it cannot be moved.

(no different from my first answer)

Psalm 96:10
Say among the heathen that the LORD reigneth: the world also shall be established that it shall not be moved: he shall judge the people righteously.

(again, no different from my first answer)

Psalm 104:5
Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.

-"that it should not be removed for ever." The Earth will remain forever, OK, same thing.

Isaiah 45:18
For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

This verse is showing that God made the Earth "to be inhabited". Even if we use the translation that JMcP is using, "...fixed it fast..." only says the same as the others, that it will remain in its position in the universe so life can continue on Earth.

Why did you not also mention Ecclesiastes 1:5 (the wiki article also refers to it)
The sun also ariseth, and the sun goeth down, and hasteth to his place where he arose.

The sun rises and goes down, that's definately more of an implication that the Earth "doesn't move"! We say the same thing today, "wow, look at that sunset/sunrise" - doesn't "sunset" and "sunrise" imply the Earth doesn't move? Ah, maybe you realized that when Scripture is understood in context it is a very different thing entirely.

********************************************
All of these verses have only to do with the
fact that God put the Earth where it needs
to be and that nothing can change that.
********************************************


Then you say "religion has a documented track record in opposing science". So, the religious leaders you refer to, and probably Galileo himself, misunderstood the Scriptures.

Does the Bible, do the Holy Scriptures themselves, "oppose" science?

No.

----------------------------------------------------------------
But wait, this is a discussion of "The Evidence For Creationism",
which has been answered already.
----------------------------------------------------------------


You have tried and failed to recycle a closed topic.

Besides, you're not really interested in evidence for creationism - as I said before, if you were you would spend some time, with an open mind, on the sites you've already told us would be a waste of your time.

#210 Hawkins

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Posted 22 December 2009 - 01:11 AM

Forgive me, but I've looked through the thread, and I can't see any answer to the OP, other than "it seems obvious", or "I have faith". The rest of it seems to be attacks against the ToE, which are fair enough, but off-topic in this thread.

Is there any scientific evidence in favour of creationism or ID? Publication in respectable peer-reviewed journal would be an advantage. A paper in "Nature" would be great. If I've missed it, I apologise.

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I think I don't agree with his conception in the first place.

To me, truth itself is quite absolute. Truth itself is evidence-independent. Evidence are just pieces of information allowing a human brain, or rather belief system, to believe that it is the truth or not. There is always a gap between truth itself and what's inside your brain/belief system. And your brain/belief system hits a truth only when what's inside your brain is in coincidence with what truth is. And yet that coincidence is not measurable, that is, we can't be 100% sure if our brain truly hits a truth. That's why the Matrix advocate.

Science is abit different. Science is the discovery of natural rules. And natural rules can predict. They can predict precisely for your brain/belief system to reckon them as the truth.

Empircal evidence actually means something which can fool the belief systems of a certain mass of humans.

So you need faith almost all the times, you can't even be sure that if there are truly people out there behind each post. :o That's actually why the ghost stories about ghosts behind posts. :lol:

#211 larrywj2

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Posted 23 December 2009 - 09:19 PM

Of course I read it, and that is the whole point. Bellarmine was arguing that the Heliocentric Theory (as it was at the time) contradicted scripture (which it clearly does, unless you reinterpret scripture in an incredibly convoluted manner).

This was why there was such a fuss about the Heliocentric Theory, because it was held to be heretical.

I have chosen this example to show that religion has a documented track record in opposing science, as the is a strong vested interest whenever science comes up with Theories which oppose scripture.

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Religion has a documented track record of mis-using doctrine to control the masses that choose not to read and think for themselves. Equating organized religion with the Bible shows you don't understand there is a difference between the two. If there was not, there weould be only one denomination in Christondom.

#212 larrywj2

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Posted 09 January 2010 - 08:32 PM

Of course I read it, . . .

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I was just catching up and noted you had no reply. Maybe you are confused by my response.

JMcP,

Most Christians ( in fact I know of none) do not reject science. It is scientists we often find contrary.

We believe God created the universe. If this is true, how could we contend against science, which is a study of the universe? We absolutely expect there is a reliable set of "regulations" or "laws" that govern how things work. What else would God do?

Hope the new year finds you well and fortunate,
Larry

#213 jason777

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Posted 09 January 2010 - 11:35 PM

So you choose to verse mine as your weapon.


LOL.That was funny,larry.I'll have to remember that one.




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