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#1 Phydeaux

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Posted 01 December 2009 - 11:17 PM

Thanks for approving my entry. First let me say most places I have seen are over run with evolutionists whom have no intention for an honest discussion. It's nice to see a change.


Ok, introduction. I am currently an undergraduate heading for a biology major. I grew up a YEC and I was always interested in the evolution vs creation debate. As a kid, I helped creationists excavate dinosaur tracks, visited the Paluxy tracks, met Carl Baugh, I read everything I could on both sides of the issue etc... however, I didn't start online discussions until somewhere over 7 years ago. It was then that I realized I could be wrong on the issues; before this time I always thought evolution was obviously wrong. Ever since then I have become more and more neutral on the issues and my final conclusion today is simply that I don't know what the truth is. Although I am a christian and lean towards creationism, I am really more agnostic when it comes to EvC.

My experience in the evolution vs creation debate has been mainly with polonium halos. I have discussed the issue with dozens of people including Robert Gentry, and a short discussion with the people who wrote the two rebuttals on the Talk.Origins website (all of which I have read at one time btw). I just recently began producing a video series for youtube based on the arguments from Dr. Lee Spetner's book Not by Chance, Dr. John Sanford's book Genetic Entropy and the Mystery of the Genome, and Mendel's Accountant, so I was hoping I could get some pointers here of course. :)

And I think I've written enough lol. In short, nice to join your community haha.

#2 ikester7579

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Posted 02 December 2009 - 01:33 AM

Welcome.

Sounds like you are going down the journey that I have. Becoming totally neutral on the subject is the only way to look at each one objectively. It's kinda like when a person is prejudice. You cannot expect the person to make a real decision based on being objective when that exists in a situation.

So one has to seperate themselves from both sides. And I can tell you, it's not easy thing to do. But when you ready, I can give you some food for thought on the issue of evolution. And how a non-biase objective approach makes one see what others are blinded to.

#3 Guest_Darkness45_*

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Posted 02 December 2009 - 04:54 AM

Welcome,

If you're going for a biology major, be aware that most, probably all, of your professors are going to be evolutionists. And if you stick with biology, you will probably end up an evolutionist. Seeing as this is a likely possibility for you, I want to make it perfectly clear that evolution and Christianity can co-exist, and for many it does. World wide there are more Christians who accept evolution than accept creationism. Nearly half of all natural scientists, which 99% accept evolution, are Christians themselves.

Anyways, welcome to the forum.

#4 ikester7579

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Posted 02 December 2009 - 05:44 AM

So would you say that by mass majority agreement, makes an idea always right? If so then the Christian faith has been right for a long time.

#5 Phydeaux

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Posted 02 December 2009 - 08:43 AM

That is possible, however, I look at the world in two totally separate ways, so that's not necessarily true. I look at the world as what we have learned from science and what we have learned from divine revelation. I can willingly accept that both are saying separate things (although they don't seem to be right now) because I don't think I can ever hope to claim I know more than God. Now, my interpretation of the revelation may change, but for now it seems I will not become an evolutionist in anymore than simply acknowledging that this is where the evidence we know so far leads. I'm a hard one to convince though lol good luck to the evolutionist professors. :rolleyes:

#6 Ron

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Posted 02 December 2009 - 10:31 AM

So would you say that by mass majority agreement, makes an idea always right? If so then the Christian faith has been right for a long time.

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No Ikester, I think this was his attempt at evo-evangelization (or evo-recruiting). If you notice, he’s doing his best to convince visa-vie the might makes right mantra rather than allowing our new friend to eventually make up his own mind.

By the way, using the historical evidence on hand; was Jesus an Evolutionist or a Creationist?

Just a thought.

#7 Ron

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Posted 02 December 2009 - 10:32 AM

Welcome Phydeaux. I hope you learn much here, and make friends as well :rolleyes:

#8 Guest_Darkness45_*

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Posted 02 December 2009 - 06:53 PM

That is possible, however, I look at the world in two totally separate ways, so that's not necessarily true.  I look at the world as what we have learned from science and what we have learned from divine revelation.  I can willingly accept that both are saying separate things (although they don't seem to be right now) because I don't think I can ever hope to claim I know more than God.  Now, my interpretation of the revelation may change, but for now it seems I will not become an evolutionist in anymore than simply acknowledging that this is where the evidence we know so far leads.  I'm a hard one to convince though lol good luck to the evolutionist professors. :o

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Just go in with an open mind and the drive to learn, and if you don't conform they can't say you don't understand the material.

P.S. I'm not trying to convert anyone to evolutionism, just making the statement that the false dichotomy is false; you can have both evolution and faith, and the statistics clearly demonstrate this.

I don't want to see anyone disregard evolution just because they don't think that evolution and Christianity are compatible, and likewise, I don't want to see anyone who accepts evolution to automatically disregard Christianity just because they don't think they are compatible.

#9 Ron

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Posted 02 December 2009 - 07:52 PM

P.S. I'm not trying to convert anyone to evolutionism, just making the statement that the false dichotomy is false; you can have both evolution and faith, and the statistics clearly demonstrate this.

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You can be an Atheist and have a great faith. In fact, most atheists I know are the most religious people I've ever met. I don't want to derail the thread with the details.

#10 Guest_Darkness45_*

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Posted 02 December 2009 - 08:10 PM

By "faith" I mean Christianity. I don't want to derail the thread either so I'll leave it at that.

#11 ikester7579

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Posted 02 December 2009 - 11:38 PM

Just go in with an open mind and the drive to learn, and if you don't conform they can't say you don't understand the material.

P.S. I'm not trying to convert anyone to evolutionism, just making the statement that the false dichotomy is false; you can have both evolution and faith, and the statistics clearly demonstrate this.

I don't want to see anyone disregard evolution just because they don't think that evolution and Christianity are compatible, and likewise, I don't want to see anyone who accepts evolution to automatically disregard Christianity just because they don't think they are compatible.

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Just so you know Darkness, I don't force religion down people's throat. I give them the info, or my opinion. And they make up their own minds. About as far as I will go, because I believe in the freewill to choose, is to encurage them to make a decision that favors becoming a child of God. But in the end, it is their decision.

Besides, a decision made that is not made with the whole heart is not truly a real decision, or conversion. Forcing someone to make a decision can leave to doubt about what they did. So leaving them in question starts them off on a weak foundation of belief that will blow away in the first storm (test) of their faith. And what good is a conversion that soon leads to resentment?

#12 ikester7579

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Posted 03 December 2009 - 12:05 AM

Just go in with an open mind and the drive to learn, and if you don't conform they can't say you don't understand the material.

P.S. I'm not trying to convert anyone to evolutionism, just making the statement that the false dichotomy is false; you can have both evolution and faith, and the statistics clearly demonstrate this.

I don't want to see anyone disregard evolution just because they don't think that evolution and Christianity are compatible, and likewise, I don't want to see anyone who accepts evolution to automatically disregard Christianity just because they don't think they are compatible.

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Yes you can have that, question is, is whether God will accept it? You or anyone else can make all the logical rational arguments you want about whether evolution can mix with faith. But unlike evolution that claims there are no absolutes. God has to judge using absolutes. Why?

Since He is a just judge, a line has to be drawn clearly showing right from wrong. Even though our court system varies on that idea. I assure you that God's court will not. God's court will consist of absolute right, and absolute wrong. Which also means there will be absolute sin. No little sin or big sin. Where a person can just skate by on little sins, and only get thrown into hell for big sins.

Do you think that in the sin of murder, that premeditated murderers go to hell, while murderers in the second and third degree go to heaven?

You see if God applies little sin-big sin logic to even one sin, then it has to be applied to all to be just. So when evolution denies God's creation on several levels. And a person stands before God to be judged upon this. Do you not think that an idea that is:

1) Not supported in God's word.
2) Denies the power of God to create.
3) Denies the time-line of the Bible.
4) Denies why Christ had to die for our sin.
5) Denies that God commanded his creation to only reproduce after it's kind 10 times.
6) And is the very opposite of God's creation on every level.
7) Has not bought one soul to Christ.
8) And is the main foundation of atheistic humanism.
etc....

Do you not think God would consider that a sin, in a court geared to determine absolute right and wrong? Because if it cannot lead someone to Christ, the idea is not of the kingdom because it cannot even be used as a kingdom work. And when the works judgment of fire to test purity is put upon evolution. Do you think it will survive?

What would you say if God asked you: Why did you not use the idea of evolution to bring my people into the kingdom? If it cannot save people, then why did you use it to replace what can (creation)?

Creationist use the creation message to bring people to Christ all the time. I have yet to see theistic evolutionist use evolution to do the same. If evolution was the perfect explanation to replace creation, and is the way God created. Then explain why no one gets saved over the evolution message?

I'll tell you why:

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Father God controls the drawing power of salvation unto His Son as stated above. What this means is that what ever draws a person to Christ for salvation first has to be approved of by God. Things that are not, cannot. Why? God does not let deception be apart of a covenant. Either the fruit is pure and true and honors God. Or it's not, which makes God into a liar if He were to allow any deception to have the drawing power unto salvation. Impurity (sin) cannot draw someone to purity (being saved). Why?

As soon as God allows an impure thing to draw people unto salvation, Christ's shed blood becomes tainted and can no longer forgive sin. Just one time, and it's done. That is why God is about absolutes, and evolution is not. For if God allowed evolution to have the drawing power to even draw one person unto true salvation, then salvation becomes as worthless as sin itself. And is no better.

So do you think that impure things can draw a person unto purity (salvation)?

#13 Guest_Darkness45_*

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Posted 03 December 2009 - 01:06 AM

Ikester, this isn't my welcome thread, so I'm not going to respond. If you put your questions in a different thread I'll address them.

#14 ikester7579

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Posted 03 December 2009 - 05:23 PM

The thread starter implied he was interested in such a subject. You promoted evolution, I defended creation.

The thread starter can voice whether he wants to discuss thie here or somewhere else. I can make a thread and move these posts there.

#15 Ron

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Posted 05 December 2009 - 06:47 AM

By "faith" I mean Christianity. I don't want to derail the thread either so I'll leave it at that.

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That would be best. Especially given your world view...

#16 the totton linnet

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Posted 07 December 2009 - 11:36 AM

:lol: Welcome to the boards

#17 Mankind

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Posted 13 December 2009 - 12:26 AM

Welcome to the boards. I disagree that the evidence points toward common descent of all life forms, adaptation of life forms, yes. We have to remember that the definition of science is something that is observable and common descent is not, so that is a religion.

Kent Hovand makes a good case for a young earth using science in his doctorial thesis, starting on page 89. Below is the link. An old earth is essential to Darwinianism, or common descent.

http://wikileaks.org...issertation.pdf

Edit: For some reason the link gets changed when I paste it here, so replace the H* in the link with small ho. Thanks.

#18 Phydeaux

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Posted 26 December 2009 - 03:48 PM

Kent Hovand makes a good case for a young earth using science in his doctorial thesis, starting on page 89.  Below is the link.  An old earth is essential to Darwinianism, or common descent.


I'm pretty sure I've watched all of his video in the past and I've seen him live once. I never really liked him much though to be honest.




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