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#1 the totton linnet

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Posted 07 December 2009 - 11:09 AM

Romans.9.vs.22

What if God desiring to show His wrath and to make known His power has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction in order to make known the riches of His glory for the vessels of mercy, which He has prepared beforehand for glory.

Ooh the God I serve is wonderful, He is all knowing, all seeing and all wise. He is the mighty Sovereign who created everything, He never came and consulted me He just went ahead and did it. Oh I am in awe of Him, I worship Him.

One day I looked out my window and saw my puppy dog playfully sniffing around an adder [the only poisonous snake in England] when the snake sprung up into an angry coil my wee doggy went down playfully on his forelegs. I clapped my hands loudly and screamed out of the window at the startled pooch to flee, RUN, VAMOSE, GERCHA I cried, I don't think he was scared of the snake but I sure put the wind up him and he ran for his life.

I climbed out of the window and took a shovel, got behind that snake and took his head off. Then got back to my tea and cake.

People will find fault, a snake is not normally dangerous if left to themselves, usually I am prepared to live and let live. But the moment you have anything to do with a wild snake it becomes potentially lethal. On another accasion I jumped a ditch and landed almost on the head of an adder who was peacefully basking in the sun. My sudden appearance upon his happy scene was not at all welcome and he sprang up with a hiss, not having a shovel to hand I did the next best thing and leapt backwards [unfortunately landing in a clump of stingers] and he slid off.

Snakes are snakes folks, wolves are wolves, stingers are stingers.
You can tickle a puppy dog's ears but it is most unwise to chum a snake under his chin.

God has made vessels of mercy to whom He wishes to show His great kindness, I am one [to the praise and honour of His name] He has also made vessels of wrath whom He wishes to destroy, it's nobody's business folks I'm telling you, it's God's business.

You might ask Him, I have. I believe that this is the way in which the poison of evil can be brought to manifestation and so destroyed forever, God's purpose is to destroy ALL evil and dispel ALL darkness leaving only the good which He has created.

I do not believe God intended for evil to have any permanence, He uses it for the purpose of creating, that is science way above my knowledge.

But with His fore-knowledge He has created who should be vessels of mercy and predestined them and He has created who should be vessels of wrath.

When the disciples were around the table and Jesus said "one of you will lift up your heel against Me" NONE of them had cause or reason to do that, the nature of that person was rotten and evil. But God determined who it would be, not John, he was a vessel of mercy, not rumbunctious Peter he was a vessel of mercy.

Judas was a vessel created by God to bring evil to manifestation for the purpose of destroying it~one day all the evil that is represented by and in Judas will be put away for ever and God will bring to fruition the virtue of honour and trust and loyalty. It's just a few thoughts on the subject folks.

#2 the totton linnet

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Posted 07 December 2009 - 05:54 PM

Romans.9.vs.22

What if God desiring to show His wrath and to make known His power has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction in order to make known the riches of His glory for the vessels of mercy, which He has prepared beforehand for glory.

Ooh the God I serve is wonderful, He is all knowing, all seeing and all wise. He is the mighty Sovereign who created everything, He never came and consulted me He just went ahead and did it. Oh I am in awe of Him, I worship Him.

One day I looked out my window and saw my puppy dog playfully sniffing around an adder [the only poisonous snake in England] when the snake sprung up into an angry coil my wee doggy went down playfully on his forelegs. I clapped my hands loudly and screamed out of the window at the startled pooch to flee, RUN, VAMOSE, GERCHA I cried, I don't think he was scared of the snake but I sure put the wind up him and he ran for his life.

I climbed out of the window and took a shovel, got behind that snake and took his head off. Then got back to my tea and cake.

People will find fault, a snake is not normally dangerous if left to themselves, usually I am prepared to live and let live. But the moment you have anything to do with a wild snake it becomes potentially lethal. On another accasion I jumped a ditch and landed almost on the head of an adder who was peacefully basking in the sun. My sudden appearance upon his happy scene was not at all welcome and he sprang up with a hiss, not having a shovel to hand I did the next best thing and leapt backwards [unfortunately landing in a clump of stingers] and he slid off.

Snakes are snakes folks, wolves are wolves, stingers are stingers.
You can tickle a puppy dog's ears but it is most unwise to chum a snake under his chin.

God has made vessels of mercy to whom He wishes to show His great kindness, I am one [to the praise and honour of His name] He has also made vessels of wrath whom He wishes to destroy, it's nobody's business folks I'm telling you, it's God's business.

You might ask Him, I have. I believe that this is the way in which the poison of evil can be brought to manifestation and so destroyed forever, God's purpose is to destroy ALL evil and dispel ALL darkness leaving only the good which He has created.

I do not believe God intended for evil to have any permanence, He uses it for the purpose of creating, that is science way above my knowledge.

But with His fore-knowledge He has created who should be vessels of mercy and predestined them and He has created who should be vessels of wrath.

When the disciples were around the table and Jesus said "one of you will lift up your heel against Me" NONE of them had cause or reason to do that, the nature of that person was rotten and evil. But God determined who it would be, not John, he was a vessel of mercy, not rumbunctious Peter he was a vessel of mercy.

Judas was a vessel created by God to bring evil to manifestation for the purpose of destroying it~one day all the evil that is represented by and in Judas will be put away for ever and God will bring to fruition the virtue of honour and trust and loyalty. It's just a few thoughts on the subject folks.

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I'm too late to edit and so add to my post so I want to add this for people who object to predestination who are NOT saved, for christians it's a different kettle of fish and an on-going debate. But for non-christians who will object to predestination I say well why don't YOU come to God and sincerely desire to be made a vessel of mercy?

If you come to God sincerely seeking pardon and new life from Christ He has pledged Himself to grant it. There is nothing either in God's word or outside it that can stop you.

If you won't come then stop beefing about predestination, and stop frowning down on others who DID come and found His promise to be true and rejoice in His great salvation. Anyone reading this here and now could settle the argument by calling on God in prayer asking Him to save them if they will.

#3 Fred Williams

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Posted 02 February 2010 - 11:51 PM

I couldn’t disagree more with your post, it’s a theology that 1) gives God a bad name, 2) makes us Christians look silly. If we accept your view, we allow skeptics to laugh at us for tacitly admitting the Bible contradicts itself, given the over 100 verses in the New Testament alone that speak of God wanting to save all people, not just the “vessels of mercy”.

1 Tim 2:3-5 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Why would God ions past decide a certain man would be “made for destruction”, yet at the same time say he wants all men to be saved?

Susie, you again, for some reason, refuse to see the context offered in the verse right before Romans 9:22.

Romans 9:21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

THIS IS A QUOTE OF JEREMIAH 18:5-10!

Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying: "O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter?" says the LORD. "Look, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel! The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.

Can’t you see that Israel became the dishonor, and the Gentiles the honor? Does this mean God will send all the Jews to hell? Of course not, as the verses that immediately follow CLEARLY show - there will be a REMANT of believing Jews.

ROMANS 9 IS ALL ABOUT THE GENTILES BEING GRAFTED IN (Mercy), AND ISRAEL BEING GRAFTED OUT (Dishonor). It is not about God intentionally creating wicked people, this is refuted many times over by other scripture.

You are yanking Romans 9:22 completely out of context and blaspheming the holy name of God you proudly claim to love and defend. You are not doing God a favor by telling the world he intentionally sends people to hell then conveniently hiding behind “Ooh the God I serve is wonderful”.

Fred

#4 ikester7579

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Posted 03 February 2010 - 12:48 AM

I would have to agree with Fred on this. It maybe shocking to read what Fred is saying. But refusing to be corrected by the word because you prefer a denominational belief instead. Means your denomination has become your god. And a person that cannot be corrected by the word God cannot use.

That is the very reason I left osas belief. I found myself defending my denominational belief over the word of God. Which should I choose? We are not judged by our denominational belief. We are going to be judged by the word.

Question: Can every denomination be correct?

If so then judgment will be like this:
You have been a good Baptist stand over there with your group and enter the glory of God.
You have been a good Mormon, stand over there and enter the glory of God.
etc....(not meant to single out anyone listed denomination).

But that is how it would have to work. But it's not going to be that way because we will be judged as individuals. Not denominations. Which means we will be responsible for all that we believed. Understand?

Now why do you adhere to Calvinism? Because you have been told it's right, correct? But are you, or anyone else here, going to be judged by their denominational belief? Nope. So to adhere to a denominational belief to the point of not being able to be corrected is wrong, period. And I don't care what denomination you are in. Even mine.

Name one denomination that has total absolute 100% truth? You cannot neither can anyone else on this planet. So to adhere to a denomination and refusing correction makes the denomination your God. And the Word second. Calvinism or no other denomination saves you. Christ does.

So is Calvinism 100% absolutely true?
Is I or what Fred believes 100% absolutely true?
Does anyone at this forum have the absolute truth in God's word?

No on all counts. Truth is a work in progress. But you are acting like you already have it. And therefore are refusing correction. We are not trying to get you to convert to what we believe, but to use the word of God and find the truth in there.

Question: Were you told what to believe before you read it yourself?
Do you find yourself making scripture coinside with what your were told to believe?
Do you find yourself ever ignoring some verses so that others can look true?

If you did, then you are in the same situation I found myself in a few years ago. One where I had to make a decision to go with the word of God, or my denomination. I choose the word. You have to make your choice.

Because if you cannot accept clear correction from the word, we cannot help you.

#5 the totton linnet

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Posted 03 February 2010 - 09:08 AM

I couldn’t disagree more with your post, it’s a theology that 1) gives God a bad name, 2) makes us Christians look silly. If we accept your view,  we allow skeptics to laugh at us for tacitly admitting the Bible contradicts itself, given the over 100 verses in the New Testament alone that speak of God wanting to save all people, not just the “vessels of mercy”. 

1 Tim 2:3-5 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Why would God ions past decide a certain man would be “made for destruction”, yet at the same time say he wants all men to be saved?

Susie, you again, for some reason, refuse to see the context offered in the verse right before Romans 9:22.

Romans 9:21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

THIS IS A QUOTE OF JEREMIAH 18:5-10!

Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying:  "O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter?" says the LORD. "Look, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel! The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it,  if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.

Can’t you see that Israel became the dishonor, and the Gentiles the honor? Does this mean God will send all the Jews to hell? Of course not, as the verses that immediately follow CLEARLY show - there will be a REMANT of believing Jews.

ROMANS 9 IS ALL ABOUT THE GENTILES BEING GRAFTED IN (Mercy), AND ISRAEL BEING GRAFTED OUT (Dishonor). It is not about God intentionally creating wicked people, this is refuted many times over by other scripture.

You are yanking Romans 9:22 completely out of context and blaspheming the holy name of God you proudly claim to love and defend. You are not doing God a favor by telling the world he intentionally sends people to hell then conveniently hiding behind “Ooh the God I serve is wonderful”.

Fred

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I believe these words.

My sheep hear My voice and I know them and they follow Me and I give them eternal life and they shall never perish, and no-one shall snatch them out of My hand, My Father who has given them to Me is greater than all and no-one is able to snatch them out of His hand, I and the Father are one.

If somebody wants to stand and quibble with the Lord and put in a load of ifs and buts that is their affair. I will rejoice and give praise and thanks.

The reference in Romans 9 is not actually to Jeremiah but to Isaiah 45-9 "woe to him who questions his Maker, an earthen vessel with the potter. Does the clay say to Him who formed it "what are you making?...or...your work has no handles." Woe to him who says to his father "what are you begetting? ...or to a woman in travail with what are you in travail?" Thus says the Lord the Holy One of Israel and his Maker "will you question Me about My children? or command Me concerning the work of My hands."

And I believe in election, you wanna boast that Israel failed? God says they stumbled in order that the Gentiles would be saved. They are enemies for the gospel's sake but BELOVED because of the fathers for God's gifts and calling are without repentance. Israel will be saved, they are elect.

#6 scott

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Posted 03 February 2010 - 11:22 AM

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I believe these words.

My sheep hear My voice and I know them and they follow Me and I give them eternal life and they shall never perish, and no-one shall snatch them out of My hand, My Father who has given them to Me is greater than all and no-one is able to snatch them out of His hand, I and the Father are one.

If somebody wants to stand and quibble with the Lord and put in a load of ifs and buts that is their affair. I will rejoice and give praise and thanks.

The reference in Romans 9 is not actually to Jeremiah but to Isaiah 45-9 "woe to him who questions his Maker, an earthen vessel with the potter. Does the clay say to Him who formed it "what are you making?...or...your work has no handles." Woe to him who says to his father "what are you begetting? ...or to a woman in travail with what are you in travail?" Thus says the Lord the Holy One of Israel and his Maker "will you question Me about My children? or command Me concerning the work of My hands."

And I believe in election, you wanna boast that Israel failed? God says they stumbled in order that the Gentiles would be saved. They are enemies for the gospel's sake but BELOVED because of the fathers for God's gifts and calling are without repentance. Israel will be saved, they are elect.

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Yes, but without Free Will, how would any of this be possible... God has no right to be angered, if He is the soul cause of all the destruction of Israel.

Israel Failed, because they rejected God. Not because God said, you shall reject Me, and I shall be Angered at Myself for making you Reject Me. Saying that Free Will is not Biblical, is being very very dishonest.

#7 the totton linnet

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Posted 03 February 2010 - 03:09 PM

Yes, but without Free Will, how would any of this be possible... God has no right to be angered, if He is the soul cause of all the destruction of Israel.

Israel Failed, because they rejected God.  Not because God said, you shall reject Me, and I shall be Angered at Myself for making you Reject Me.  Saying that Free Will is not Biblical, is being very very dishonest.

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That is the exact quote Paul uses, "you will say to me then "why does God still find fault? for who can resist His will?" [apparantly free willers can]
But...he says...who are you, a man, to answer back to God

Let's get something straight Israel was FORE ORDAINED to fail, they were predestined to reject Christ but that DOES NOT mean they lost their election.

You simply fail to see the greatness of God,

Romans 11:11
So I ask have they stumbled so as to fall? BY NO MEANS but through their trspass salvation has come to the Gentiles
verse 25
Lest you be wise in your own conceits I want you to understand this mystery brethren a hardening has come upon part of Israel until the full number of the Gentiles are brought in and so ALL Israel will be saved.

I have seen argued that Paul is talking only about the remnant who will be saved, but it was not upon the remnant that the hardness came was it? it was the Israel that rejected Christ upon who the hardness came. So that YOU could be saved.
verse 28
As regards the gospel they are enemies of God FOR YOUR SAKE but as regards election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers for the gifts and and the call of God are irrevocable

If THEIR gifts and call are irrevocable then ours which is made under a better covenant are irrevocable because of election, you don't like it so I'll say it again BECAUSE OF ELECTION.

#8 the totton linnet

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Posted 03 February 2010 - 03:31 PM

I have never said God predestined man to sin, you castigate Calvin for saying it but fall into the same trap that he did. I say God fore-saw that man would sin and predestined who He would choose to be conformed to the image of His Son. And I have argued on other threads on EFT a wider mercy than any I've seen you put forward Fred . I have better hopes than just the wise and prudent folk who "chose to be saved" will find mercy on that day, the holy huddle, the saintly few.

You have put alot of stuff in my mouth today that I object to. That's hat people do, you say predestination and it registers Calvin. Well THAT is your narrowmindedness, I say predestination because the bible says predestination.

You must really wince when you read Ephesians

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Posted 03 February 2010 - 03:42 PM

TTL,

We are not saved through "election" or predestination by God. Jesus came into the world to save everyone, not just an elect few, for the grace of God is open to all who seek it. Yes, there are people who will/did reject the Word, but they do so of their own accord. For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened.

#10 the totton linnet

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Posted 03 February 2010 - 03:50 PM

TTL,

We are not saved through "election" or predestination by God. Jesus came into the world to save everyone, not just an elect few, for the grace of God is open to all who seek it. Yes, there are people who will/did reject the Word, but they do so of their own accord. For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened.

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Show me somewhere that I used the word "few" except to say that it is the prevailing view of evangelicals [the vast majority being free willers] I believe on that day God will have the most and only the enemies of God will be on the left hand.

Paul rejected God's word but God knocked him off his horse and he became the great apostle of God, you think God is a slave to man's "free will?"

#11 scott

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Posted 03 February 2010 - 04:13 PM

Yes, but without Free Will, how would any of this be possible... God has no right to be angered, if He is the soul cause of all the destruction of Israel.

Israel Failed, because they rejected God.  Not because God said, you shall reject Me, and I shall be Angered at Myself for making you Reject Me.  Saying that Free Will is not Biblical, is being very very dishonest.

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Again Totten, how can you justify this. How can you say a rape, or murder ordained by God is good, or great??? This is what your implying, and please be honest.

Why would God ordain failure, and then be ANGERED at Israel, because God is the one who made Israel fail. Why would God be mad at Himself for making a mistake???

I hope you see what is being implied by what you say. What you imply is not Biblical, nor do the scriptures that you present support your Matrix Idea.

#12 Scanman

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Posted 03 February 2010 - 04:42 PM

I have never said God predestined man to sin, you castigate Calvin for saying it but fall into the same trap that he did. I say God fore-saw that man would sin and predestined who He would choose to be conformed to the image of His Son. And I have argued on other threads on EFT a wider mercy than any I've seen you put forward Fred . I have better hopes than just the wise and prudent folk who "chose to be saved" will find mercy on that day, the holy huddle, the saintly few.

You have put alot of stuff in my mouth today that I object to. That's hat people do, you say predestination and it registers Calvin. Well THAT is your narrowmindedness, I say predestination because the bible says predestination.

You must really wince when you read Ephesians

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First off, I am not a fan of Calvin...he was a murderer.

Secondly, freewill is an illusion.

Cause and effect.

We are a product of past events...a product of our environment.

Our decision making is a product of past events and influences.

We are living in a giant Pachinko machine of a universe. No matter how you try to reset time, the balls will always fall in the exact same path and order if no external influence is exerted upon it.

The only thing that can change the natural outcome of events, is the supernatural.

When we are born, we are set on a path that cannot be changed by natural events...because these natural events will always have occurred.

Our decision making ability is molded by everything around us and in us.

If I choose to be good/obedient, my choice is based on how I am feeiling, how I was raised, how intelligent I am, etc...

If I choose to be bad/disobedient, the same set of variables apply.

You might say, 'what about the Holy Spirit?'...What about it? Why do I have, or do not have the Holy Spirit?...is it because I am a good decision maker, or a bad decision maker? Why am I either one?...Is it based on the grace/will of God?...if so, then it is out of my control.

You are probably thinking...'Then what is the point, we have no control...no freewill.'

As I said before...freewill is an illusion (but only in the overall scheme of things), we see freewill as a reality in our moment of existence.

Everything that has happened since the creation of the universe, would happen exactly the same again, if it was all reset...the only thing that can change the course of events, is the supernatural influence of God.

Peace

#13 Fred Williams

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Posted 03 February 2010 - 09:22 PM

First off, I am not a fan of Calvin...he was a murderer.

Secondly, freewill is an illusion.

Cause and effect.

We are a product of past events...a product of our environment.

Our decision making is a product of past events and influences.

We are living in a giant Pachinko machine of a universe. No matter how you try to reset time, the balls will always fall in the exact same path and order if no external influence is exerted upon it.

The only thing that can change the natural outcome of events, is the supernatural.

When we are born, we are set on a path that cannot be changed by natural events...because these natural events will always have occurred.

Our decision making ability is molded by everything around us and in us.

If I choose to be good/obedient, my choice is based on how I am feeiling, how I was raised, how intelligent I am, etc...

If I choose to be bad/disobedient, the same set of variables apply.

You might say, 'what about the Holy Spirit?'...What about it? Why do I have, or do not have the Holy Spirit?...is it because I am a good decision maker, or a bad decision maker? Why am I either one?...Is it based on the grace/will of God?...if so, then it is out of my control.

You are probably thinking...'Then what is the point, we have no control...no freewill.'

As I said before...freewill is an illusion (but only in the overall scheme of things), we see freewill as a reality in our moment of existence.

Everything that has happened since the creation of the universe, would happen exactly the same again, if it was all reset...the only thing that can change the course of events, is the supernatural influence of God.

Peace

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Scanman, by and large we strive to keep this an area where scripture is used to defend claims. You seem to have a propensity for philosophical musings which far exceed the amount of time you spend using scripture (see the pinned post about the purpose of this section). Such musing are more for the Christian coffee shop. So please use scripture to back up your claims.

Fred

#14 Fred Williams

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Posted 03 February 2010 - 09:23 PM

Due to a decision by the Editorial Board (me :)) this section has been moved to the Bible Q&A. I don't even remotely find this topic a "Treasure" of the Bible.

Fred

#15 Scanman

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Posted 03 February 2010 - 09:43 PM

Scanman, by and large we strive to keep this an area where scripture is used to defend claims. You seem to have a propensity for philosophical musings which far exceed the amount of time you spend using scripture (see the pinned post about the purpose of this section). Such musing are more for the Christian coffee shop. So please use scripture to back up your claims.

Fred

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Fair enough.

Peace

#16 jason777

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Posted 04 February 2010 - 10:04 PM

I have never said God predestined man to sin, you castigate Calvin for saying it but fall into the same trap that he did. I say God fore-saw that man would sin and predestined who He would choose to be conformed to the image of His Son. And I have argued on other threads on EFT a wider mercy than any I've seen you put forward Fred . I have better hopes than just the wise and prudent folk who "chose to be saved" will find mercy on that day, the holy huddle, the saintly few.

You have put alot of stuff in my mouth today that I object to. That's hat people do, you say predestination and it registers Calvin. Well THAT is your narrowmindedness, I say predestination because the bible says predestination.

You must really wince when you read Ephesians

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Your correct. God already knows,because the scripture tells us "Those he foreknew he predestined to be conformed to the image of the son".

The scriptures also tells us that "Gods will is to hand all men over to sin,so he may have mercy on them all". Not to be confused with claiming that God's will is for us to sin. It's a polite way of saying "I killed you all through Adam,but I will have mercy through the cross of Jesus."

The question now remains,how does God already know and how does he make sure it happens.

2 Corinthians 12:7-10

7) So to keep me from becoming (proud) conceited because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations,a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to (torment) harass me, to keep me from becoming (proud) conceited. 8) Three times I pleaded with the Lord about this, that it should leave me. 9) But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10) For the sake of Christ, then, I am content with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions, and calamities. For when I am weak, then I am strong.


Sometimes God has to beat us into submission,but that is how he knows who will and who won't.



Enjoy.

#17 jason777

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Posted 04 February 2010 - 10:23 PM

If you did, then you are in the same situation I found myself in a few years ago. One where I had to make a decision to go with the word of God, or my denomination. I choose the word. You have to make your choice.

Because if you cannot accept clear correction from the word, we cannot help you.


I got in a lot of trouble trying to understand the word instead of being led by the spirit. When we become intellectuals and try to understand the word in our own knowledge and understanding we can no longer learn.

Here is one of the most important scriptures to remember.

"But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you." John 14:26


Enjoy.

#18 Fred Williams

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Posted 05 February 2010 - 10:04 PM

Your correct. God already knows,because the scripture tells us "Those he foreknew he predestined to be conformed to the image of the son".

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Hello Jason,

I agree with this verse, but not the way I think you interpret it (by agreeing with Suzie, I’m assuming you think God pre-destined each individual believer specifically to believe in him). The problem I have long had with this is that there are literally 100s, without exaggeration or hyperbole, that contradict this view. For example, a verse I gave earlier:

1 Tim 2:3-5 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

And this:

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

Why would God need to desire this if he already pre-destined them to believe?
There are over 100 “God died for everyone” verses in the NT. There are over 100 “God changed his mind” (but not like a man would do) verses in the OT. All of these verses have to have their plain, straightforward meaning ignored or explained away to accommodate a belief in individual pre-destination. They can’t both be true at the same time. But what can be true, and what I believe, is that God foreknew the Body of Christ. Everywhere the Bible speaks of pre-destination, it is in the plural! By simply recognizing this plurality, the dilemma many Christians have on these few handful of verses in the Bible dissolves.

Fred
PS. Unfortunately the moderation team decided it was necessary to suspend Suzie’s ability to post to the Bible section. I want to stress that this had nothing to do with our disagreement regarding her Calvinistic view. There have been scores of Christians that have disagreed on this topic in this forum over the years, and no one has been censored for defending their view. It had everything to do with a strawman argument she has been laying at the feet of Christians off-and-on over the last several months, namely that those here who reject her version of pre-destination are hardcore Armenians who believe you can choose your salvation (while this may be true of some members of our forum, I personally do not know of any who hold such a view). Recently several complaints were also made to two different moderators. After numerous pleas with her to stop making this false caricature of other members of the forum went on deaf ears, the mod team had no choice but to suspend her access to the Bible section. She will of course be restored full posting privileges if and when she recognizes and agrees to end the strawman.

#19 jason777

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Posted 05 February 2010 - 11:08 PM

Thanks Fred,

I always take the bible literally. And it is'nt saying that God's will is for man to sin,but that it was his will to condemn all men in sin through Adam. It is also saying that it is his choice who he has mercy on,which means his only bent is mercy.



Enjoy.




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