46 replies to this topic

[the totton linnet]

Tot,

Who is greater? Adam or Christ?

Who is more powerful?

"Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.

But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.

Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous." Rom 5:12-19

If Adam brought the penalty to all men by his one action...then Jesus has cancelled the penalty for all men by his one action.

The world is a man in an unlocked prison with a blindfold on.

The debt has been paid.

The good news (gospel) is that we are free and that the kingdom of God is within us.

If someone paid off the mortgage loan on your home, and you were not aware of it...are you still in debt?

The problem, is that because you do not know, you live as if you are under the burden of the debt.

Jesus taught us that God is our Father and that our neighbors are our brothers.

Love God
Love your neighbor as yourself.

How much doctrine is needed for that?

It is all so very simple.

Where is it said that death is the demarcation for decision making?

" ...For we will all stand before God's judgment seat. It is written:
" 'As surely as I live,' says the Lord,
'every knee will bow before me;
      every tongue will confess to God." Rom 14:10,11

"that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
      in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
      to the glory of God the Father." Phil 2:10.11

"That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." Rom 10:9

The Pharisees and Sadducees felt orthodox and safe...the 'doctrine' of Jesus was not very comfortable.

It always feels comfortable to fit in with the majority.

Peace

*
This IS a gospel I would work with Scan, that is to say if I found someone preaching it and I could assist I would, providing they did not deny eternal punishment [do you see the distinction] I think it wrong and a little decietful but in as much as the positive truths of the cross are preached I am encouraged.

I believe that people who hold this position [in my opinion] have fully convinced themselves of it, I feel if you really, really searched your heart under the spotlight of the Holy Spirit you would see things that would turn you away from it. [I stress that is my opinion]

Despite it's appeal I feel a wrong spirit present in it, I would hesitate to put it more strongly than that.

Although indeed it is a [growing] minority view within evangelicalism it is very much in line and to the liking of the world view [caution there]

I am very much [as I have expressed on this forum] in favour of a more positive approach to evangelism, the main thrust being the more abundant life and life in the Spirit.

However I cannot deny what I see in the sayings of Jesus and as far as I can see His words have not been convincingly re-interpreted by the Unis.

I state once again that the greatest danger with a false presentation of the gospel is future development.

I once challenged a Uni by saying, what if by being silent on the subject of eternal punishment you fail to discourage wickedness? whereas individuals and even nations might hesitate to go to extremes [say the extremes of Nazism or communism] if eternal punishment were preached and believed in, see Germany was amazingly liberal in theology, indeed "the enlightenment" came from turn of the century Germany, then by not declaring the full counsel of God you may be responsible for even greater woe, both here and now and in eternity.

You can see I have thought about it. What I would like to see is a more bible based balance, using the book of Acts as a guide. Even the teachings of Jesus though stern were never delivered with His finger pointing at the people directly [apart from the religious leaders, them He had some hard words for, and I think He would today too]

Thanks for your imput

[Scanman]

*
This IS a gospel I would work with Scan, that is to say if I found someone preaching it and I could assist I would, providing they did not deny eternal punishment [do you see the distinction] I think it wrong and a little decietful but in as much as the positive truths of the cross are preached I am encouraged.

I believe that people who hold this position [in my opinion] have fully convinced themselves of it, I feel if you really, really searched your heart under the spotlight of the Holy Spirit you would see things that would turn you away from it. [I stress that is my opinion]

Despite it's appeal I feel a wrong spirit present in it, I would hesitate to put it more strongly than that.

Although indeed it is a [growing] minority view within evangelicalism it is very much in line and to the liking of the world view [caution there]

I am very much [as I have expressed on this forum] in favour of a more positive approach to evangelism, the main thrust being the more abundant life and life in the Spirit.

However I cannot deny what I see in the sayings of Jesus and as far as I can see His words have not been convincingly re-interpreted by the Unis.

I state once again that the greatest danger with a false presentation of the gospel is future development.

I once challenged a Uni by saying, what if by being silent on the subject of eternal punishment you fail to discourage wickedness? whereas individuals and even nations might hesitate to go to extremes [say the extremes of Nazism or communism] if eternal punishment were preached and believed in, see Germany was amazingly liberal in theology, indeed "the enlightenment" came from turn of the century Germany, then by not declaring the full counsel of God you may be responsible for even greater woe, both here and now and in eternity.

You can see I have thought about it. What I would like to see is a more bible based balance, using the book of Acts as a guide. Even the teachings of Jesus though stern were never delivered with His finger pointing at the people directly [apart from the religious leaders, them He had some hard words for, and I think He would today too]

Thanks for your imput 

As you well know, the word 'hell' does not actually appear in the scripture.
Hades, Sheol, Gehenna are the actual words that have been mistranslated as 'hell'.
Hades and SHeol simply mean the 'grave', 'unseen', 'hidden', the abode of the dead.
Gehenna is a proper name for a real place, the Valley of Hinnom.
The Valley of Hinnom was a garbage dump where a fire was always burning and the worms never die away...a place of destruction.

The OT Hebrews did not have a concept for an 'eternal hell'.

This is a very good article...
Questions about Hell link

The concept of eternal punishment was a Zoroastrian carry over from their captivity in Persian Babylon.
The Pharisees adopted some aspects of this idea while the Sadducees did not.

The idea of punishment and judgement was typically reserved for the living.

Read Ecclesiastes and see what type of view that they had concerning death and the afterlife.

"Man's fate is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath ; man has no advantage over the animal. Everything is meaningless. 20 All go to the same place; all come from dust, and to dust all return. 21 Who knows if the spirit of man rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth?"" ECCL:3:19-21

"All the ends of the earth
will remember and turn to the LORD,
and all the families of the nations
will bow down before him,

for dominion belongs to the LORD
and he rules over the nations.

All the rich of the earth will feast and worship;
all who go down to the dust will kneel before him—
those who cannot keep themselves alive." PS 22:27-29

"Like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be recovered, so we must die. But God does not take away life; instead, he devises ways so that a banished person may not remain estranged from him." 2 Sam 14:14

Do everything from faith and unto God.

Peace

[performedge]

As you well know, the word 'hell' does not actually appear in the scripture.
Hades, Sheol, Gehenna are the actual words that have been mistranslated as 'hell'.
Hades and SHeol simply mean the 'grave', 'unseen', 'hidden', the abode of the dead.
Gehenna is a proper name for a real place, the Valley of Hinnom.
The Valley of Hinnom was a garbage dump where a fire was always burning and the worms never die away...a place of destruction.

The OT  Hebrews did not have a concept for an 'eternal hell'.

This is a very good article...
Questions about Hell link

The concept of eternal punishment was a Zoroastrian carry over from their captivity in Persian Babylon.
The Pharisees adopted some aspects of this idea while the Sadducees did not.

The idea of punishment and judgement was typically reserved for the living.

Read Ecclesiastes and see what type of view that they had concerning death and the afterlife.

"Man's fate is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath  ; man has no advantage over the animal. Everything is meaningless. 20 All go to the same place; all come from dust, and to dust all return. 21 Who knows if the spirit of man rises upward and if the spirit of the animal  goes down into the earth?"" ECCL:3:19-21

"All the ends of the earth
    will remember and turn to the LORD,
    and all the families of the nations
    will bow down before him,

for dominion belongs to the LORD
    and he rules over the nations.

  All the rich of the earth will feast and worship;
    all who go down to the dust will kneel before him—
    those who cannot keep themselves alive." PS 22:27-29

"Like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be recovered, so we must die. But God does not take away life; instead, he devises ways so that a banished person may not remain estranged from him." 2 Sam 14:14

Do everything from faith and unto God.

Peace

Scanman, you have me thoroughly confused. In the thread on "hell" you appear to be an annihiist. You also appear to be a universalist. The two are incompatible logically.

Unlike the totten linnet I am strongly concerned about the concept of universalism. This is not just another opinion or view on a particular scripture, this is "another" gospel.

You have cited several scriptures already out of context to support universalism. Is this your position? If so, I will do my best to show you how logically inconsistent this position is.

[Scanman]

Scanman, you have me thoroughly confused.  In the thread on "hell" you appear to be an annihiist.  You also appear to be a universalist.  The two are incompatible logically.

Unlike the totten linnet I am strongly concerned about the concept of universalism.  This is not just another opinion or view on a particular scripture, this is "another" gospel.

You have cited several scriptures already out of context to support universalism.  Is this your position?  If so, I will do my best to show you how logically inconsistent this position is.

I am more of an annihilist then a universalist...at present.

In Universalism, the destruction is a 'chastisement' a 'purification' that is only for an 'age'(aionion).

The dross/chaff is destroyed...what is 'pure' remains.

As it stands for me, I have no doubt whatsoever, that it is one of these two views.

If you were to ask yourself why universalism doesn't 'feel' right, I think if your honest, it is because we can't abide the idea that God would forgive certain people...yet we are all sinners.

As far as the 'gospel' is concerned...it has nothing to do with this topic. The gospel of Jesus Christ is about the kingdom of God...Love God, love your neighbor.

Did you read the article in my prior post?

Peace

[scott]

I am more of an annihilist then a universalist...at present.

In Universalism, the destruction is a 'chastisement' a 'purification' that is only for an 'age'(aionion).

The dross/chaff is destroyed...what is 'pure' remains.

As it stands for me, I have no doubt whatsoever, that it is one of these two views.

If you were to ask yourself why universalism doesn't 'feel' right, I think if your honest, it is because we can't abide the idea that God would forgive certain people...yet we are all sinners.

As far as the 'gospel' is concerned...it has nothing to do with this topic. The gospel of Jesus Christ is about the kingdom of God...Love God, love your neighbor.

Did you read the article in my prior post?

Peace

Again, the problem you are having, is that you do not understand the fact that a person has to repent before they are forgiven.

Mark 1:15 " and saying, " The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel."

Luke 15:10 " Likewise, I say to you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents."

Even if you read the Parable of the Lost Son, the son came back, repented (aknowledged that he had sinned), and the father forgave him.

To repent, and to be saved you say " And forgive us our sins " Luke 11: 2-4. The Model Prayer.

[AFJ]

I am more of an annihilist then a universalist...at present.

In Universalism, the destruction is a 'chastisement' a 'purification' that is only for an 'age'(aionion).

The dross/chaff is destroyed...what is 'pure' remains.

As it stands for me, I have no doubt whatsoever, that it is one of these two views.

If you were to ask yourself why universalism doesn't 'feel' right, I think if your honest, it is because we can't abide the idea that God would forgive certain people...yet we are all sinners.

As far as the 'gospel' is concerned...it has nothing to do with this topic. The gospel of Jesus Christ is about the kingdom of God...Love God, love your neighbor.

Did you read the article in my prior post?

Peace

"As it stands for me, I have no doubt whatsoever, that it is one of these two views."

So do you have a goal for arriving at a decision? Maybe you should really talk to God on this one. God is not the author of confusion. He leadeth me...Ps. 23

"As far as the 'gospel' is concerned...it has nothing to do with this topic. The gospel of Jesus Christ is about the kingdom of God...Love God, love your neighbor."

I think you are right. Never really got into philosophical mixture, or categorizing. I don't like too much systematic theology as I believe it gives place for the thoughts of man. ANd His thoughts are higher than our thoughts! I just read the word, believed it, and God showed up. When He shows up, philosophy is no longer needed.

Let me put it this way: This morning at church "the light came on"--and these words can't express to you what happened unless it's happened to YOU. Then when I say it, you'll understand. Like you just went to the Alps and I say "the Alps."

But as for hell, yes Gehenna is the NT word. I hope you do understand, since you are not a literalist, that Gehenna was a type and shadow of what awaits those who do not believe "where their worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched." Did you forget the book of Revelation, or the Apocalypse, since I'm guessing you are Catholic--the lake of fire?

My point being you take a literal interpretation of Gehenna, but deny that the lake of fire is literal in Revelation of John, who saw the Son of God in His glory.

[ikester7579]

As a side note, the promotion of universalism was one of the determining factors as to why scan was banned. Universalism is a belief that where basically everyone ends up in Heaven. Making the path wide instead of narrow. This is why scan has no problems with twisting and denying the word of God because his belief makes him not fear God or His judgment. So through this belief people make their own way, their own rules, and God becomes a Genie who serves them instead of the other way around.