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Does God Exist?


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#1 performedge

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Posted 13 December 2009 - 03:53 PM

Has anyone watched this debate? Between Christopher Hitchens (notorius atheist who wrote "God is not Good") and Dr. William Lane Craig (Christian philosopher and apologist).

Wow, what a knock out in my opinion. If you want a good look at how irrrational atheism really is, I suggest you watch this debate.

Craig presents 5 good logical philosophical reasons that God exists, and he challenged Hitchens to produce one good reason to believe that God doesn't exist.

Hitchens didn't produce one reason to believe that God does not exist. He tried to redefine atheism throughout the debate, and he ranted about all the evils of religion throughout history.

In the end, Craig presented logic and reason and Hitchens presented emotional appeal.

I would highly recommed this for anyone to watch, especially our atheist visitors.

Does God Exist?

#2 Ron

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Posted 14 December 2009 - 10:41 AM

Has anyone watched this debate?  Between Christopher Hitchens (notorius atheist who wrote "God is not Good") and Dr. William Lane Craig (Christian philosopher and apologist).

Wow, what a knock out in my opinion.  If you want a good look at how irrrational atheism really is, I suggest you watch this debate.

Craig presents 5 good logical philosophical reasons that God exists, and he challenged Hitchens to produce one good reason to believe that God doesn't exist.

Hitchens didn't produce one reason to believe that God does not exist.  He tried to redefine atheism throughout the debate, and he ranted about all the evils of religion throughout history.

In the end, Craig presented logic and reason and Hitchens presented emotional appeal. 

I would highly recommed this for anyone to watch, especially our atheist visitors.

Does God Exist?

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Although I haven't listened to this debate in it's entirety, I have gotten snatches of it here and there. But I have listened to (or read the transcripts of) an number of WL Craig’s and Hitchens’ debates (seperately). So I will note that I have yet to hear a debate the Dr. Craig was involved in that he didn’t pull apart (or colpletely dismantle) the oppositions case. And I haven’t heard a Hitches’ debate that he didn’t talk over the opposition, interrupt the opposition, or generally attempt to bully the opposition.

#3 Guest_Thanos_*

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Posted 19 December 2009 - 12:32 AM

Well, it is impossible to "know" that God does not exist becuase for you to know that God does not exist, you would have to be all knowing, thus making you some what God-like or a DemiGod.

However, I would like to point out that logic only can get us to agree that there should logically be a God or even there logically should be the Judeo-Christian God but it still leaves the question of positive proof of God.

And when I say positive proof, I mean scientific proof.

I have not seen the debate nor will I have time to, it's Christmas! Busy time of year for Christians and non-Christians alike :lol:
So if you have the time to link me or type out his arguments, I will be glad to have a look at them.

#4 Ron

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Posted 19 December 2009 - 11:25 AM

And when I say positive proof, I mean scientific proof.

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You mean like the "scientific proof" of macro-evolution?

#5 JMcP

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Posted 19 December 2009 - 01:47 PM

Is the Christian God perfectly just and perfectly merciful?

#6 ikester7579

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Posted 19 December 2009 - 03:05 PM

Well, it is impossible to "know" that God does not exist becuase for you to know that God does not exist, you would have to be all knowing, thus making you some what God-like or a DemiGod.

However, I would like to point out that logic only can get us to agree that there should logically be a God or even there logically should be the Judeo-Christian God but it still leaves the question of positive proof of God.

And when I say positive proof, I mean scientific proof.

I have not seen the debate nor will I have time to, it's Christmas! Busy time of year for Christians and non-Christians alike ;)
So if you have the time to link me or type out his arguments, I will be glad to have a look at them.

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So why is scientific proof positive proof?

There are many things science cannot explain but you accept them anyway, right? So why does science have to explain God when science want even look into the supernatural because it is restricted to the natural? One cannot find what one does not even look for.

#7 ikester7579

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Posted 19 December 2009 - 03:11 PM

Is the Christian God perfectly just and perfectly merciful?

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Not in the way we would like it. But like does not = being just. Because for God to know all and see all, His justice would be absolute. Which means not one individual could hide even the smallest sin from Him. He would know more about us than we would know about ourselves. Which means not one person would go to Heaven or Hell that did not belong there.

#8 JMcP

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Posted 19 December 2009 - 03:22 PM

Not in the way we would like it. But like does not = being just. Because for God to know all and see all, His justice would be absolute. Which means not one individual could hide even the smallest sin from Him. He would know more about us than we would know about ourselves. Which means not one person would go to Heaven or Hell that did not belong there.

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So, God is just, but not merciful?

#9 Ron

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Posted 19 December 2009 - 04:05 PM

Is the Christian God perfectly just and perfectly merciful?

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Yes... Do you have perfect understanding?

#10 Ron

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Posted 19 December 2009 - 04:06 PM

So, God is just, but not merciful?

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No, incorrect again...

#11 JMcP

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Posted 19 December 2009 - 04:30 PM

Yes... Do you have perfect understanding?

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I'm not sure. If God is perfectly just, he makes sure that everyone gets exactly what's coming to them. If God is perfectly merciful, he lets everyone off. But he can't do both. So the notion of a supreme being may be internally inconsistent.

#12 JMcP

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Posted 19 December 2009 - 04:58 PM

In any case, in order to prove that something does not exist, one need not show that it is logically impossible. One need only show is that it is epistemically unnecessary - that it is not required to explain anything. Science has historically proven the non-existence of many things in this way, such as phlogiston, the luminiferous ether, and the planet Vulcan. Scientific proofs, unlike logical proofs, do not establish their conclusions beyond any possibility of doubt. But they are proofs nonetheless, for they establish their conclusions beyond a reasonable doubt and that is all that is needed to justify them.

Phlogiston, the luminiferous ether, and the planet Vulcan were theoretical entities that were postulated in order to explain various phenomena. Phlogiston was postulated to explain heat, the luminiferous ether was postulated to explain the propagation of light waves through space, and Vulcan was postulated to explain certain irregularities in the orbit of Mercury. Science has shown, however, that the phenomena can be explained without invoking these entities. By demonstrating that these entities are not needed to explain anything, science has proven that they do not exist.

God is a theoretical entity that is postulated by theists to explain various phenomena, such as the origin of the universe, the design of the universe, and the origin of living things. Modern science, however, can explain all of these phenomena without postulating the existence of God. In the words of Laplace, "science has no need of that hypothesis". By demonstrating that God is not needed to explain anything, science has proven that there is no more reason to believe in the existence of God than to believe in the existence of phlogiston, the luminiferous ether, or Vulcan. This may explain why more than 90% of the world's top scientists disbelieve or doubt the existence of God.

Scientists prefer natural explanations to supernatural ones, not because of any metaphysical bias on their part, but because natural explanations produce more understanding than supernatural ones. As Plato realized, to say that "God did it" is not to explain anything, but simply to offer an excuse for not having an explanation.

#13 Bex

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Posted 19 December 2009 - 05:03 PM

I'm not sure. If God is perfectly just, he makes sure that everyone gets exactly what's coming to them. If God is perfectly merciful, he lets everyone off. But he can't do both. So the notion of a supreme being may be internally inconsistent.

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He's both. There is nothing inconsistent about it. His justice is exact and perfect on sin/evil. Yet, His mercy knows no bounds to even the worst sinner who turns with a sincere heart to Him.

He IS mercy and IS justice. He is the supreme Judge, and only He alone knows all circumstances/conditions of a person and situation in order to render a perfect judgement.

It is righteous judgement. Those who have suffered a wretched life at the hands of others (or illness etc), can rest assured that there IS perfect justice, even if the world's justice system has failed them. Those that commit evil who get away with it in this life, will not when they face God. Yet, all of us sinners have hope because He has offered us redemption!

He is the King of Mercy! He is also Just!

#14 JMcP

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Posted 19 December 2009 - 05:25 PM

Those that commit evil who get away with it in this life, will not when they face God.  

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You have ignored the problem that he is not merciful, in that instance. So there is an inconsistency. No matter.

Is God both omniscient and omnipotent?

#15 scott

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Posted 19 December 2009 - 05:28 PM

You have ignored the problem that he is not merciful, in that instance. So there is an inconsistency. No matter.

Is God both omniscient and omnipotent?

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You are mixing the whole explanation up. Why? Because you don't give mercy to people who don't deserve it. Especially when God executes perfect judgement, and perfectly understands who gets mercy, and who does not.

#16 CTD

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Posted 19 December 2009 - 06:52 PM

Looks like I might've inspired someone.

The reasoning of God's enemies is outrageously absurd.

God is supposed to protect them from the consequences of their own actions - always - or He is somehow wrong. God has made a provision, but rejecting Him and His provision should still have no consequences. Apparently He is their slave or something. It makes no sense at all.

Don't forget that this would require God, an entity with unlimited foresight, to create masters for Himself, a silly enough proposal, right? No, not yet. Not until we include the issues of justice and righteousness. A just, righteous God creates for Himself wicked masters, knowing in advance they will require Him to promote evil.

Review if you think I invented anything at all. This is exactly what God's enemies would have us believe. In the fields of arrogance and absurdity, who can rival them? Who can even aspire to compete?

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(Orange dot's a link)

#17 Ron

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Posted 19 December 2009 - 07:53 PM

I'm not sure.

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From your posts, that is obvious. But to compound it with attempts at twisting logic only makes your case weaker.

If God is perfectly just, he makes sure that everyone gets exactly what's coming to them.

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No, once again, you are incorrect.

If God is perfectly merciful, he lets everyone off.

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Just as you are incorrect here.


But he can't do both. So the notion of a supreme being may be internally inconsistent.

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He doesn’t have to do both. You see, you are leaving out part of the equation so that you can live under the false assumption that you can logically disprove God through omission.



You have ignored the problem that he is not merciful, in that instance. So there is an inconsistency.

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No, you are the one who is ignoring the problem. And there is no inconsistency, except in your inconsistent use of logic and reason.

No matter.

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Well, actually, it does matter.


Is God both omniscient and omnipotent?

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Yes, He is. But He doesn’t have to create a stone so large that He cannot lift to prove it.

#18 jason78

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Posted 19 December 2009 - 08:26 PM

The question that the opening post poses is "Does God exist?" I would submit that no gods exist, and I would dare anyone to prove otherwise.

#19 scott

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Posted 19 December 2009 - 08:45 PM

The question that the opening post poses is "Does God exist?"  I would submit that no gods exist, and I would dare anyone to prove otherwise.

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Your EXACTLY CORRECT!!!!!!

" (No gods exist) "

Only GOD exist a.k.a. Jesus Christ.

#20 Bex

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Posted 20 December 2009 - 02:25 AM

You have ignored the problem that he is not merciful, in that instance. So there is an inconsistency. No matter.

Is God both omniscient and omnipotent?

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I have not ignored anything. I'm surprised you find it inconsistent to be both Just and merciful.....this does not make sense to me. Justice and mercy compliment the other. Thank goodness for them! At any rate, perhaps I should have elaborated a little more.

Those whom get away with evil doings in this life, will still have to face the eternal God in the next (all of us will). Justice prevails, even if it fails in this life (thank goodness). Whatever judgement one has meted out to them when one faces the eternal God, will be in keeping with what the person has brought upon themselves by the way they have lived/used their time on earth and their acceptance/rejection of mercy/grace that has been offered to them during that time and at the time of their death. God is fully aware of all circumstances/situations/sufferings/weaknesses etc. This is why we must be careful in our judgements of others, as we do not have perfect and intimate understanding as He does.

Yes, God is both omniscient and Omnipotent.




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