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Sin in Heaven


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#1 Guest_92g_*

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Posted 09 March 2005 - 07:22 PM

Admin 3 made a statement about Sin not being in Heaven.

I think that sin is in heaven for a few reasons.

Satan himself was allowed into heaven:

JOB 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them.

Hebrews says that heaven is cleansed through the blood of Christ:

HEB 9:23 ¶ Therefore it was necessary for the copies of the things in the heavens to be cleansed with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

A parallel to this verse, and one of my favorites is col 1-20:

COL 1:20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

Things in heaven needed to be reconciled by the blood of Christ.

Terry

#2 Daniel

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Posted 10 March 2005 - 08:14 AM

Mere semantics either way. The verses you referenced all spoke of it in a past tense, as of a problem no longer of concern because of the solution provided to remove it.

#3 lionheart209

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Posted 13 March 2005 - 01:48 PM

Admin 3 made a statement about Sin not being in Heaven.

I think that sin is in heaven for a few reasons.

Satan himself was allowed into heaven:

JOB 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them.

Hebrews says that heaven is cleansed through the blood of Christ:

HEB 9:23 ¶ Therefore it was necessary for the copies of the things in the heavens to be cleansed with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

A parallel to this verse, and one of my favorites is col 1-20:

COL 1:20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

Things in heaven needed to be reconciled by the blood of Christ.

Terry

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Satan was not a sinner when he was in heaven, he did commit sin while he was there by attemting to over throw God from the throne due to foolish pride and jealousy, But as soon as sin was detected in heaven, God had satan tossed out by the angel Michael.

The scripture your talking about the sons of God, refer to fallen angels, the ones who were cast out of heaven along with satan, it says he took a 3rd of heavens angels with him, fallen angels/demons



Louie

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Posted 15 March 2005 - 02:03 PM

Satan was not a sinner when he was in heaven, he did commit sin while he was there by attemting to over throw God from the throne due to foolish pride and jealousy, But as soon as sin was detected in heaven, God had satan tossed out by the angel Michael.


In Job, we see Satan, not Lucifer in heaven.

JOB 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them.

I admit that I'm assuming this is in heaven, but I know of no better way to interpret it.

Terry

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Posted 17 March 2005 - 09:50 PM

Admin 3 made a statement about Sin not being in Heaven.

I think that sin is in heaven for a few reasons.

Satan himself was allowed into heaven:

JOB 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them.

Hebrews says that heaven is cleansed through the blood of Christ:

HEB 9:23 ¶ Therefore it was necessary for the copies of the things in the heavens to be cleansed with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

A parallel to this verse, and one of my favorites is col 1-20:

COL 1:20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

Things in heaven needed to be reconciled by the blood of Christ.

Terry

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There is a difference between a sinful person being allowed to visit, but not stay in heaven. Then actual sin being commited there, and stay there. And when satan did such a thing, what happened? And when the angels did the samething as satan, what happened to them? They were all thrown out.

At the end of God's word, when all of sin is thrown into the lake of fire. Is there any time commented?

Rev. 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

In Job, satan was allowed to see God, but was the king of sin allowed to sin in front of God? I think not. I believe that there was a condition to satan's visits with God. That he not sin. And if you also notice, the visits were only long enough to let satan say what was needed. There was no long drawn out dialog here.

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Posted 19 March 2005 - 04:51 AM

In Job, satan was allowed to see God, but was the king of sin allowed to sin in front of God? I think not. I believe that there was a condition to satan's visits with God. That he not sin. And if you also notice, the visits were only long enough to let satan say what was needed. There was no long drawn out dialog here.


I guess I should clarify that I'm not saying that sin is acceptable to God. To me its clear that heaven, or heaven's, was defiled by Satan's sin, and the fallen angles' as well. It was cleansed by the Blood of Christ, just as everything else is.

I agree that since Christ's resurection and ascention, that sin is probably not there any more.

Terry

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Posted 19 March 2005 - 10:33 PM

When Christ died for sin, was it in heaven, or here on earth? You see sin is allowed here. And the reason satan and his fallen angels were thrown out of heaven is because sin is not allowed there.

Heaven is made holy just by God being there. And when sin was removed, everything was right again. But when we sin here on earth, where could we be thrown but in the pit of hell? So Christ came down to stop this and save us from ourselves, from the sins we commit.

Death was not until Adam and Eve committed the first sin. We die on earth because of sin, but in heaven we live eternally. And since sin brings death, how can we be eternal in heaven and be allowed to commit sin?

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Posted 20 March 2005 - 06:16 AM

When Christ died for sin, was it in heaven, or here on earth?


He died here because he had to be a man to pay for our sins, but scripture clearly states that he died "to reconcile all things to Himself", both on earth and in heaven.

Heaven is made holy just by God being there.


I don't know.... I understand what your saying, but is that really what the Bible teaches?

Paul told us that God is everywhere.

ACT 17:24 "The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands;
ACT 17:25 neither is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all life and breath and all things;
ACT 17:26 and He made from one, every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times, and the boundaries of their habitation,
ACT 17:27 that they should seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;
ACT 17:28 for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said,' For we also are His offspring.'


EPH 4:6 one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.


Is everything holy because God is present?

COL 1:20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.


What in heaven, or elsewhere as it says "all things", ta panta in the greek, which I believe literally means the everthing, needed to be reconciled to God?

How did Adam's sin defile anything outside of the earth that was under his authority?

Death was not until Adam and Eve committed the first sin.


Agreed, spiritual death came to Adam and what he was in charge of came when he sinned.

And since sin brings death, how can we be eternal in heaven and be allowed to commit sin?


I'm not saying we will commit sin in heaven. I'm saying that Christ paid for the sins of angelic creatures that were in heaven when they sinned, and heaven being defiled by that sin is also cleansed by the Blood of Christ.

The imperfection of heaven is also demonstrated by the fact that it will be destroyed, and replaced with a new heaven where we will spend eternity with him.

HEB 1:10 And, "Thou, Lord, in the beginning didst lay the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the works of Thy hands;
HEB 1:11 They will perish, but Thou remainest; And they all will become old as a garment,
HEB 1:12 And as a mantle Thou wilt roll them up; As a garment they will also be changed.
But Thou art the same, And Thy years will not come to an end. "


REV 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea.


Terry

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Posted 20 March 2005 - 06:11 PM

He died here because he had to be a man to pay for our sins, but scripture clearly states that he died "to reconcile all things to Himself", both on earth and in heaven.

Are there not three heavens? Is the spiritual realm the same as the physical one? And if things are the same, why can we not see God? And why were not the fallen angels and satan given a choice to sacrafice for atonement for sin, But yet before Christ died and rose again. we were given that option. But yet we were created a little lower than the angels, and we had that option.

I don't know....  I understand what your saying, but is that really what the Bible teaches?

When Moses went up the mountain, because of the burning bush. What was it that was told him when he Got there?
Exodus 3:5 And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.
What made it holy ground? Was it God's presence? It was because it was God's dwelling place.
Definition of holy:
1 : exalted or worthy of complete devotion as one perfect in goodness and righteousness (without sin).
2 : divine for the Lord our God is holy— Psalms 99:9 (Authorized Version)
3 : devoted entirely to the deity or the work of the deity a holy temple holy 4 a : having a divine quality holy love b : venerated as or as if sacred holy scripture a holy relic
Synonyms: blessed, consecrated, hallowed, sacred, sanctified, unprofane;

Paul told us that God is everywhere.
Is everything holy because God is present?
What in heaven, or elsewhere as it says "all things", ta panta in the greek, which I believe literally means the everthing, needed to be reconciled to God?

There is a difference between being present, and actually dwelling there. Because there is a different set of laws that apply to the spiritual realm. Laws that make that realm eternal, which does not apply to our realm. Why do you think there was such a preparing before a priest could enter into the holy of holies? The priest would have to be without sin in his heart and mind to enter where God dwelled. The other priests were so scared, they would tie a rope around the foot of the priest that entered, so that if he were struck dead, they would not have to enter and possibly recieve the same fate ( because God was mad, or they were with sin also). They would just pull him out by the rope.

How did Adam's sin defile anything outside of the earth that was under his authority?
Agreed, spiritual death came to Adam and what he was in charge of came when he sinned.

Genesis 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

The first sin was committed in a garden, the first shed blood, by Christ was also shed in a garden when he prayed.
In verse 18, the thorns and thistles the ground was cursed of, were what Christ's crown was made of. And blood flowed onto this crown, shed for that curse. In verse 19, it speaks of the sweat of thy face. I have read another KJV that says: sweat of thy brow. Either way, Christ's blood also flowed across his brow and face. Also, verse 19 speaks of what's called the first death. A physical death: till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

The second death is mentioned 4 times in God's word:
Revelation 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

The reason there are two deaths for us is that we are flesh, which is seperate from our soul while we are like this. But, when we reach heaven, we will be given glorified bodies that our soul becomes part of. For our flesh is not eternal because of sin. But our soul is eternal, but can suffer the second death.

I'm not saying we will commit sin in heaven.  I'm saying that Christ paid for the sins of angelic creatures that were in heaven when they sinned, and heaven being defiled by that sin is also cleansed by the Blood of Christ.

If so, then why does not satan, and his fallen angels, have a choice to accept Christ, or repent of their sin?

The imperfection of heaven is also demonstrated by the fact that it will be destroyed, and replaced with a new heaven where we will spend eternity with him.
Terry

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Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Notice the word heaven is singular. There are three heavens: II Corinthians 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

Being that only the first heaven, and the first earth is mentioned. It would mean that the earth, and the place considered the first heaven (which contained earth), would be replaced. For why even mention the word first unless it was pretaining to both being the same, and in the same place?

Even in creation, heaven and earth are created together. But if God already lives in heaven, why create it? Because heaven is a reference to what we refer to as a realm. Something that is different from what is already there.

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Notice that the heaven is created before the earth. Why not create the earth first? Because you have to have a realm, or place for earth before you put it there. So the first heaven is created for earth.

So what was the second heaven?
Genesis 1:9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
Genesis 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
Genesis 1:15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
Genesis 1:17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,

In every one of those verses, it is all refering to something above the earth. So the second heaven is a reference to space.

Next verse is a reference to the first heaven:
Genesis 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.


The third heaven already exists. So it not need to be created. But where is it?
Isaiah 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14. I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

Even satan knew where heaven was, and that he would have to create a new one to be above God. But satan does not have the power to create.

And the word heavens (plural) is not used until all heavens have been created and finished.

Genesis 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

So from reading all this, would you not say that the spiritual realm is different from the physical? And that not all things apply to both?

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Posted 21 March 2005 - 03:13 PM

This is slightly off-topic, so if there is no reply I understand.

Why was it seemingly necessary for Jesus to be Baptized?
He was supposed to be sinless, so why did Jesus say:

Matt 3:15 Jesus replied, “Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness.” Then John consented.

He never explains (at least here) why it is proper for a sinless being, God himself no less, to be baptized by a man to fulfill all righteousness.

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Posted 21 March 2005 - 03:27 PM

This is slightly off-topic, so if there is no reply I understand.

Why was it seemingly necessary for Jesus to be Baptized?
He was supposed to be sinless, so why did Jesus say:

Matt 3:15 Jesus replied, “Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness.” Then John consented.

He never explains (at least here) why it is proper for a sinless being, God himself no less, to be baptized by a man to fulfill all righteousness.

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It was a confirmation of what he was fixing to do. And also show that Jesus accepted this act as an act of getting rid of the old self, and becoming new (reborn and renewed through salvation).

Why? If Christ would not have done this, there would always be a debate on whether it was the right thing to do. And this could have caused another split in the church.

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Posted 27 March 2005 - 05:59 AM

What was it that was told him when he Got there?
Exodus 3:5 And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.
What made it holy ground? Was it God's presence? It was because it was God's dwelling place.


God the Holy Spirit dwells in us.

1CO 6:19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?


We are commanded to refrain from S@xual immorality becuase we are defiling God's temple when we do it. So, I agree that God's presence makes that place Holy, but it doesn't mean that place is without sin. Is your body without a sin nature? Not yet.....


Even in creation, heaven and earth are created together. But if God already lives in heaven, why create it?


God must also exist outside of the physical universe.

So from reading all this, would you not say that the spiritual realm is different from the physical? And that not all things apply to both?


Yes I would, and do, but there is still a very important unanswered question.

How did Adam's sin defile heaven? Only the earth was under his authority. Some other sin must have defiled heaven. I think we find that sin in Isaiah 14

ISA 14:12 "How you have fallen from heaven, O star of the morning, son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the earth, You who have weakened the nations!
ISA 14:13 "But you said in your heart, 'I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God, And I will sit on the mount of assembly In the recesses of the north.
ISA 14:14 'I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.
'


Notice that Satan was cast from heaven. I believe he was there when he sinned.

Terry

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Posted 27 March 2005 - 07:48 AM

Sin is any transgression of, or lack of conformity to, the Law of God.

Who supposes that there is any of that in heaven?

Long ago there was a separation of the angels who would obey from the angels who would not. Since that time sin is an earthly thing inherent in the fallen nature of man and there is no escape from it until death. Those who belong to Christ are at death perfected to "be like Him", i.e. without sin.

There is at this present time no sin in Heaven, nor will there ever be sin in heaven again.

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Posted 27 March 2005 - 11:09 PM

God the Holy Spirit dwells in us.

It is the Holy Spirit of God that dwells within us.

We are commanded to refrain from S@xual immorality becuase we are defiling God's temple when we do it.  So, I agree that God's presence makes that place Holy, but it doesn't mean that place is without sin.  Is your body without a sin nature?  Not yet.....


Agreed.

God must also exist outside of the physical universe.


God can be anywhere he needs to be. But His dwelling place is in Heaven. God has actually had two dwelling places on earth. One was Mt. Sinia. And the other was the Ark which kept the ten commandments

Yes I would, and do, but there is still a very important unanswered question.


How did Adam's sin defile heaven?  Only the earth was under his authority.  Some other sin must have defiled heaven.  I think we find that sin in Isaiah 14
Notice that Satan was cast from heaven.  I believe he was there when he sinned.

Terry

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Can heaven truly be defiled and still be God's dwelling place? And I don't remember ever saying that it was Adam who sinned in heaven, or defiled it. His sin defiled God's perfect creation of earth. And was the reason several curses were placed upon it and man.

Example: When Moses was getting the Ten Commandments, and the people below were sinning. What do you think would have happened if they had ran up the moutain, full of sin? The same thing that happened when Moses came down. They would have been struck dead. But, would their sin have defiled the mountain, which was God's dwelling place?

I did word searches to try and find where it said: heaven was defiled, and could find none. But from reading all the places it was used, and how it was used. I got the impression that being defiled is more of a state of being than an actual act of sin. Though a sin can cause you to be defiled, not every sin was listed as defiling. Only certain acts of sin.

Example: Leviticus 19:31 Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the LORD your God.
Numbers 5:14 And the spirit of jealousy come upon him, and he be jealous of his wife, and she be defiled: or if the spirit of jealousy come upon him, and he be jealous of his wife, and she be not defiled:

Notice the word spirit being used in each verse. The allowing of you to have familiar relations with these evil spirits makes you defiled.

Here we have an actual act that defiles someone: Number 5:20 But if thou hast gone aside to another instead of thy husband, and if thou be DEFILED, and some man have lain with thee beside thine husband:

If all sin defiles things, then why is the word defile not included with every sin? So in other words, there most be sins of defilement, and sins of another nature. And because God lives in heaven, which is eternal and holy, it may not be defilable. Because that would make God himself defilable. For when a land, or a realm becomes defiled. does not everything that it contains become defiled also? So I ask, is God defilable?

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Posted 28 March 2005 - 08:17 AM

92g said:

God the Holy Spirit dwells in us.


And Admin3 replied:

It is the Holy Spirit of God that dwells within us.


This might seem like a nit-pick, but it isn't. 92g is correct. It is God the Holy Spirit that dwells in us. Let me explain why it isn't 'the Holy Spirit of God'. There are Three Persons in the Godhead: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Each of these Persons is fully, 100%, God Almighty. To phrase it as 'the Holy Spirit of God' is to say that although the Spirit is of God He is lesser than God because He is only 'of God', just as we as children of God are not gods, but 'of God'. And (this is the clincher) God does not have a Spirit, He is a Spirit (John 4:24).


Lets also look at this:

God can be anywhere he needs to be. But His dwelling place is in Heaven. God has actually had two dwelling places on earth. One was Mt. Sinia. And the other was the Ark which kept the ten commandments


God is omnipresent. That is to say He is everywhere at all times. The Bible does say that Heaven is God's dwelling place (1 Kings 8:43, 2 Chronicles 6:30,33 et al), but it isn't a dwelling place in the same sense that we men think of it. In Exodous 29:45 God says "I will dwell among the children of Israel", but because He dwells among them does not mean that it is His (so to speak) home. And since He is everywhere at all times neither can heaven be considered His home in the human sense. The principle here is the law of non-contradiction which says that something can not both be, and not be, at the same time and in the same relationship. So, since God is omnipresent, there can be no single location superior to any other. Someone will surely say, 'but heaven is where God's throne is'. Indeed, but the throne is not omnipresent, there is only one, and it's location is fixed.

I make these distinctions not to find fault, but in the interest of accurate understanding of the nature and (known) characteristics of God.

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Posted 28 March 2005 - 11:15 PM

This might seem like a nit-pick, but it isn't. 92g is correct. It is God the Holy Spirit that dwells in us. Let me explain why it isn't 'the Holy Spirit of God'. There are Three Persons in the Godhead: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Each of these Persons is fully, 100%, God Almighty. To phrase it as 'the Holy Spirit of God' is to say that although the Spirit is of God He is lesser than God because He is only 'of God', just as we as children of God are not gods, but 'of God'. And (this is the clincher) God does not have a Spirit, He is a Spirit (John 4:24).


Guess this verse must be worded wrong. Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

The rest I won't address because of what happened before.

It would be best if Deacon continues this. I give up the thread, nothing I say beyond this point will have no meaning. Because anything I say will be wrong.

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Posted 29 March 2005 - 07:59 AM

,
Guess this verse must be worded wrong. Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.


The cited passage is a reference to the Third Person of the Trinity, not a subsidiary reference to a conditional or subordinate entity. The previously presented problem with the law of non contradiction, and the direct quote form Scripture stating that God does not have a spirit because He is a spirit apparently cut no ice.

The rest I won't address because of what happened before.


Cop out.

It would be best if Deacon continues this. I give up the thread, nothing I say beyond this point will have no meaning. Because anything I say will be wrong.


"Nothing I say will have no meaning". That is a clear statement that everything you say does have meaning. That isn't what you meant to say, but it is exactly what you said. If you do not handle common English with caution why would anyone suppose that you handle Scripture with caution?

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Posted 29 March 2005 - 10:22 AM

To all interested parties:

Do a word study of this text from Ephesians chapter 4, (v30) και μη λυπειτε το πνευμα το αγιον του θεου εν ω εσφραγισθητε εις ημεραν απολυτρωσεως

There is no way whatever to extract the idea that God has a spirit that is separate from Himself.

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Posted 29 March 2005 - 12:07 PM

Your right. Absolutely right.




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