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#1 the totton linnet

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Posted 03 February 2010 - 08:36 AM

I love God, I love the way He says things, when He wants to show forth His choice of us in the great doctrine of Election He sets us forward as SHEEP :lol: Anybody on EFT want to boast about being a sheep?

Jesus said "you have not chosen me, I have chosen you" I get grief because I am stupid enough to believe Him, I am [how co-incidental] in this same debate on another forum, or at least I WAS the thread [not one I started] got shut don because of the sheer spite and wrath of the free-will camp, it ended with them getting their voodoo out and cursing [in Jesu's name of course] because I challenged them to find a scripture saying that we at anytime have chosen the Lord.

The idea goes against every chapter and verse of the NT

If the English cricket board when they want to select a side with a good chance of giving the Aussies a good hiding in the test choose Freddy Flintoff nobody is in the least bit surprised, he is the best. He can bowl out the whole Aussie side out in one days play, it has been known that one player when he saw mighty Freddy charging toward him down the wicket before letting the heavy cork ball fly at 90 miles per hour had a little accident in his pants, that's the kind of fear Freddy as a pace bowler inspires.

When he comes into bat, if he's on form, he is a joy to watch, whacking he ball around all corners and into the crowd and even out of the grounds, one of his slogs ended up in a no 9. bus to Victoria.

But if they were to choose ME to face the fearsome Downunders a great gasp of surprise would go up.
I can't even get my fingers around the seam of the ball, one of those leg pads they wear would fit around the whole of me and I can scarce lift a big willow cricket bat. They are not going to choose me to play cricket for the local primary school let alone England.

But God chose ME glory hallelujah, what in heavens name would He want to do THAT for?
I'll tell you why predestination and election makes sense, because if God had not for His own name's sake decided and planned it all in eternity, if He had waited until we were born and grew up to be the evil people we are, He would have saved NOBODY. He swore in eternity that He would have a people, before e'er a star twinkled in the sky or a robin sang. That's when he made His covenants and He's been working on those covenants ever since, not because He ever saw or foresaw anything good in us but simply because He would.

You wanna boast of something? boast that God chose you because you were foolish, have a brag about how weak you are, how poor, boast about how NOTHING you are.

"For consider your call brethren, not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, not many powerful, no many of noble birth. But God chose what is foolish to shame the wise, God chose what was weak in the world to shame the strong, God chose what was low and desised in the world even things that are not to bring to nothing the things that are. So that no human being might boast in the presence of God."

You talk about Pharisees, they were the free willers, oh yes, they of their own free will tithed even down to the dill, they fasted twice a week and praye long prayers.
Paul was the chief of them, When he saw the grace of God shining in Stephen it made him grit his teeth.

God will have men and women accept His salvation as a free gift, nothing to be earned, just humbly accept, there was nothing you did to merit it and there is sure nothing you can do to continue in it, only abide in Him, believe. But the moment you add a conditions to it, it ceases to be grace, now it is wages.

If you started out by faith but now are continuing by works then you are not abiding in Him you ar in danger of falling away from grace, this is the very thing Heb.6:4 warns about. You are holding up the cross to contempt, it is no longer sufficient to save you, YOU must supplement it by whatever it is you suppose enables you to persevere. You are saying He began a good work in me but He is not able to carry it through to completion on thet day.

#2 scott

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Posted 03 February 2010 - 11:16 AM

Yes but believeing that God ordains murder, rape, theft, and all other evil things under the sun is completely UNBIBLICAL.

You will claim that you didn't state such things, no you didn't in a way, but by DEFAULT you claim the above.

You cannot have love without Free Will, God gave Adam and Eve the decision. Free Will is completely Biblical.

The Matrix ( what your implying)... well that's science fiction, and is not Biblical, as is easily read in the Bible. It's also easily read that God gave man Free Will, and the Angels too.

No Totten, the Pharisees were of the Old Law, which requires a person to NOT have Free Will. Jesus healed on the Sabbath, that disturbed the Pharisees because they didn't have the Free Will to do that according to their Idiology.

Jesus showed them the correct way. Their would be absolutely no point to life, if there was no Free Will.

#3 the totton linnet

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Posted 03 February 2010 - 02:46 PM

Yes but believeing that God ordains murder, rape, theft, and all other evil things under the sun is completely UNBIBLICAL.

You will claim that you didn't state such things, no you didn't in a way, but by DEFAULT you claim the above.

You cannot have love without Free Will, God gave Adam and Eve the decision.  Free Will is completely Biblical.

The Matrix ( what your implying)... well that's science fiction, and is not Biblical, as is easily read in the Bible.  It's also easily read that God gave man Free Will, and the Angels too.

No Totten, the Pharisees were of the Old Law, which requires a person to NOT have Free Will.  Jesus healed on the Sabbath, that disturbed the Pharisees because they didn't have the Free Will to do that according to their Idiology.

Jesus showed them the correct way.  Their would be absolutely no point to life, if there was no Free Will.

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And I say it is free will that points the finger at God, if God ever gave man free will then sin is His fault, nobody answered Designist satisfactorily.

God does not give people free will to sin, He forbids it, He says we may have life but He warns that the wages of sin is death. Whether man chooses life, that is God's will, but if man chooses sin then he must die according to God's will concerning the soul that sinneth, it shall die. If you can see free will somewhere there dear bro then you have remarkable eyesight.

God KNEW that man would sin, He knew the sorrow and agony that must come through sin and in foreseeing it for each and everyone of us He fore planned the remedy, He made the way possible for each one to recieve forgiveness, healing, and peace MIRACULOUSLY by the cross.

You will find healing for every hurt if you will recieve it as a divine exchange, "the chastisement for our peace was upon Him." you will only find it at the cross, not by human reason. It makes no moe sense than the fact that He bore our sins away miraculously by a divine exchange, so He bore our sorrows away.

The pharisees went over and above the law, they did far more than the law required but all the wrong stuff, [and actually what they did, they did only when in public view it was utter hypocrisy of the kind that is a stench in God's nostrils because it overlooked mercy. They made it hard for people to come to God especially the poor.

How simple God makes His salvation, only believe, anybody can do that, the more anybody adds to that the harder they make it for a very large slice of humanity, the VERY ONES who God wants to save. The poor, the weak, the unprudent, the unwise, people that have nothing to bring and are nothing .

How does rotten free will help the feeble in mind? I mean truly handicapped, are they able to listen and weigh it all up and "make a decision?" THAT'S why free willers do not like to approach people in their desperation, when people are desperate in mind and body, what hope do the free will brigade offer?

I've seen what they do, they start wagging the finger, they start castigating and lecturing, "believe or be damned." All they ever needed to do is point to Jesus, point to the cross, "cry to Him, believe in Him, He'll help you." then leave the Holy Ghost to do the work and He will. The free willers will give a five point lecture laying down all kinds of conditions.

I doesn't want free will, I want God's will. Not that free will is anything but a rotten lie in the first place.

What make's the gospel a laughing stock as Fred says is not predestination, that is in the bible, you would have to tear whole pages and chapters out to get rid of it. What makes people laugh is this "God loves you but He will send you to hell."

#4 scott

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Posted 03 February 2010 - 04:31 PM

It's by choice that people choose to sin, it's not God that makes people sin. If God ordained people to sin, then God is responsible for that sin.

God predestined Jesus, and every other prophecy, by the WILL OF GOD all of that was accomplished, because God made it happen in due time. Not because it already happened, before it happened... but God said it would be done, and God did it. It's more of God keeping His Word, than being predestined.

If God ordained sin, then there would be no judgement, because God would be responsible for all sin if man did not have the free will to sin.

You yourself would have discard almost the ENTIRE Bible to take Free Will out of it.

Please answer this: Do you love someone by your own free will, or does someone make you love them? Do you forgive someone by your own free will, or does someone else make you forgive them?

How could God judge you, or anyone... if He pre-programed everyone to do what He wanted to do before anything ever happens.

How could God be angry... EVER... if He pre-programed everyone to do bad things, and how could you call that good?

#5 Scanman

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Posted 03 February 2010 - 04:44 PM

Yes but believeing that God ordains murder, rape, theft, and all other evil things under the sun is completely UNBIBLICAL.

You will claim that you didn't state such things, no you didn't in a way, but by DEFAULT you claim the above.

You cannot have love without Free Will, God gave Adam and Eve the decision.  Free Will is completely Biblical.

The Matrix ( what your implying)... well that's science fiction, and is not Biblical, as is easily read in the Bible.  It's also easily read that God gave man Free Will, and the Angels too.

No Totten, the Pharisees were of the Old Law, which requires a person to NOT have Free Will.  Jesus healed on the Sabbath, that disturbed the Pharisees because they didn't have the Free Will to do that according to their Idiology.

Jesus showed them the correct way.  Their would be absolutely no point to life, if there was no Free Will.

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There is a difference between 'ordain' and 'allow'.

#6 scott

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Posted 03 February 2010 - 04:48 PM

There is a difference between 'ordain' and 'allow'.

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What are you saying? If God wanted it to happen, then it would happen. If not, then it wouldn't.

It seems to me that ordain and allow are the same thing... can you prove otherwise?

#7 Scanman

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Posted 03 February 2010 - 04:58 PM

Yes but believeing that God ordains murder, rape, theft, and all other evil things under the sun is completely UNBIBLICAL.

You will claim that you didn't state such things, no you didn't in a way, but by DEFAULT you claim the above.

You cannot have love without Free Will, God gave Adam and Eve the decision.  Free Will is completely Biblical.

The Matrix ( what your implying)... well that's science fiction, and is not Biblical, as is easily read in the Bible.  It's also easily read that God gave man Free Will, and the Angels too.

No Totten, the Pharisees were of the Old Law, which requires a person to NOT have Free Will.  Jesus healed on the Sabbath, that disturbed the Pharisees because they didn't have the Free Will to do that according to their Idiology.

Jesus showed them the correct way.  Their would be absolutely no point to life, if there was no Free Will.

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The Garden of Eden was a setup...it was obviously designed for failure.

What parent would put a baby bottle filled with poison in a childs' nursery and then tell the child not to drink of it? Not only that...but allow another playmate to come along and coerce the child to drink it?

Yet that is precisely what God did.

Do you think that God did not see the fall as it happened?

Why weren't Adam and Eve fully trained and prepared for such a temptation event?

Whose negligence was that?

God knew that all of this was going to happen before he ever created man.

Everything comes from God...everything.

Everything serves God's purpose.

Did Adam have a strong character?

How is character developed?...it is developed through struggle and strife.

Our life on this earth is a training ground for eternity...a bootcamp.

God created man to learn from his mistakes...and grow in character.

He could have programmed us like robots...but how would that serve is desire?

God desires our love...God desires our friendship.

God is creating man to be his children and his friends.

If all that God wanted was worshippers and prostrate supplicants, then he would be no better then any other tinpot dictator that has cropped up in our world.

God wants more...

Peace

#8 scott

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Posted 03 February 2010 - 05:23 PM

The Garden of Eden was a setup...it was obviously designed for failure.

What parent would put a baby bottle filled with poison in a childs' nursery and then tell the child not to drink of it? Not only that...but allow another playmate to come along and coerce the child to drink it?

Yet that is precisely what God did.

Do you think that God did not see the fall as it happened?

Why weren't Adam and Eve fully trained and prepared for such a temptation event?

Whose negligence was that?

God knew that all of this was going to happen before he ever created man.

Everything comes from God...everything.

Everything serves God's purpose.

Did Adam have a strong character?

How is character developed?...it is developed through struggle and strife.

Our life on this earth is a training ground for eternity...a bootcamp.

God created man to learn from his mistakes...and grow in character.

He could have programmed us like robots...but how would that serve is desire?

God desires our love...God desires our friendship.

God is creating man to be his children and his friends.

If all that God wanted was worshippers and prostrate supplicants, then he would be no better then any other tinpot dictator that has cropped up in our world.

God wants more...

Peace

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Your asking some of my same questions. How could we love God, or fulfill His desires if He pre-programed us to do it.

How does that honor God? If God's doing everything, then how can He actually be loved, or how could he feel honored even.

I believe God sees what can happen in EVERY situation, but it's our decision that determines what path God already sees that will happen. Not, that the situation has already happened, but God already knows what the outcome would be if we chose to sin, to love, to hate, or any decision... but utlltimately it's our decision, because that way... God is the JUDGE... like He says He is.

Another question: Can love exist without Free Will to chose, or can one love if you are forced to love? Can you force love?

#9 the totton linnet

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Posted 03 February 2010 - 05:27 PM

It's by choice that people choose to sin, it's not God that makes people sin.  If God ordained people to sin, then God is responsible for that sin.

God predestined Jesus, and every other prophecy, by the WILL OF GOD all of that was accomplished, because God made it happen in due time. Not because it already happened, before it happened... but God said it would be done, and God did it.  It's more of God keeping His Word, than being predestined.

If God ordained sin, then there would be no judgement, because God would be responsible for all sin if man did not have the free will to sin.

You yourself would have discard almost the ENTIRE Bible to take Free Will out of it.

Please answer this:  Do you love someone by your own free will, or does someone make you love them?  Do you forgive someone by your own free will, or does someone else make you forgive them?

How could God judge you, or anyone... if He pre-programed everyone to do what He wanted to do before anything ever happens.

How could God be angry... EVER... if He pre-programed everyone to do bad things, and how could you call that good?

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I have not said God ordained sin, He ordains life, to fully discuss that we would have to discuss FEDERAL HEADSHIP which is part and parcel of pedestination, but people can't get their eyes above WHAT THEY SUPPOSE predestination means so it's no good even thinking about discussing it.

God is responsible for sin if He gave man free will, that is just the same as if a parent will allow their children to do just exactly as they please. But God forbade the man, that totally negates any supposed free will, and when Adam disobeyed he was STILL subject to God's will. Free will is the deception that Satan used, it is a cruel delusion "you will be like God, knowing good and evil"

Well brother you make a fine distinction between predestination and God keeping His word, since His purposes were foretold from the day that Adam first sinned what His plan of salvation would be.

I do not take free will out of the bible, it simply is not there, find it predestination is there, God's sovereign will is there election is there but free will is not there.

Fred keeps reading into scripture a free will that is not there. just to take Jeremiah and the nations God says if you sin I will punish you, if you do righteousness I will bless you, that has always been God's word to man, but whether they are blessed, that is God's will or whether they are punished THAT is God's will.

If the man could come back and say I will sin but I reject Your punishment THAT would be free will. So show me who has ever gotten away with that.

Corrie Ten Boom could tell you about forgiveness, she met the cruellest of the Nazi guards after one of her meetings, this guard had beaten Corries sister.

He smiled and put his hand out and Corrie's heart froze, all the hate and bitterness welled up. But God said "take his hand I will do the rest" she did take his hand and the love of God poured through her. You will say she "chose" I will say she obeyed.

Just look at the stuff you people chuck over me, show me where I have said God programned to sin. That's what YOU read when you see predestination, you make the same mistake Calvin made.

#10 Scanman

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Posted 03 February 2010 - 05:44 PM

Your asking some of my same questions.  How could we love God, or fulfill His desires if He pre-programed us to do it.

How does that honor God?  If God's doing everything, then how can He actually be loved, or how could he feel honored even.


There is a difference between 'God doing it' and 'God allowing it'.

...but utlltimately it's our decision...


But what causes our 'decisions'?

If it was a good decision...then why? What influences led up to our decsion?

If it was a bad decision...then why? What influences led up to our decision?

Cause and effect, brother...cause and effect.

Another question:  Can love exist without Free Will to chose, or can one love if you are forced to love?  Can you force love?

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Does a rose have the free will to be beautiful?

In our simple existence, we believe that we have free will.

This belief is all that it takes to generate love or hate...whether the free will is real or not.

A program will run the same way every time, unless the programmer intervenes.

Ahh...but you might say there is an exception...it is called the 'random number generator' (it really isn't random, but based on circumstances that exist at the time that the function is called)...I digress.

Peace

#11 scott

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Posted 03 February 2010 - 05:49 PM

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I have not said God ordained sin, He ordains life, to fully discuss that we would have to discuss FEDERAL HEADSHIP which is part and parcel of pedestination, but people can't get their eyes above WHAT THEY SUPPOSE predestination means so it's no good even thinking about discussing it.

God is responsible for sin if He gave man free will, that is just the same as if a parent will allow their children to do just exactly as they please. But God forbade the man, that totally negates any supposed free will, and when Adam disobeyed he was STILL subject to God's will. Free will is the deception that Satan used, it is a cruel delusion "you will be like God, knowing good and evil"

Well brother you make a fine distinction between predestination and God keeping His word, since His purposes were foretold from the day that Adam first sinned what His plan of salvation would be.

I do not take free will out of the bible, it simply is not there, find it predestination is there, God's sovereign will is there election is there but free will is not there.

Fred keeps reading into scripture a free will that is not there. just to take Jeremiah and the nations God says if you sin I will punish you, if you do righteousness I will bless you, that has always been God's word to man, but whether they are blessed, that is God's will or whether they are punished THAT is God's will.

If the man could come back and say I will sin but I reject Your punishment THAT would be free will. So show me who has ever gotten away with that.

Corrie Ten Boom could tell you about forgiveness, she met the cruellest of the Nazi guards after one of her meetings, this guard had beaten Corries sister.

He smiled and put his hand out and Corrie's heart froze, all the hate and bitterness welled up. But God said "take his hand I will do the rest" she did take his hand and the love of God poured through her. You will say she "chose" I will say she obeyed.

Just look at the stuff you people chuck over me, show me where I have said God programned to sin. That's what YOU read when you see predestination, you make the same mistake Calvin made.

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You imply that God programmed to sin, everytime you speak predestination the way you do. Man chose to sin, because if man cannot chose to sin, then he cannot chose to love. If man cannot chose to love, then there can be no love.

Free Will is all that is in the Bible, the Bible is all about Free Will, no where can you show me that Free Will not is in the Bible. I can show you Free Will all throughout the Bible.

God is not responsible for our sins... unless He pre-programs (predestines) us to sin. Then God is still even more so responsible.

God gave Adam and Eve a choice. God gave you a choice, and He gave me a choice.

So again, I will ask you to answer my questions, instead of avoiding them. You keep saying that God doesn't ordain sin, but then you turn around and say God ordains sin.

By saying God ordains everything, you AUTOMATICALLY by default, put the burden of sin on God's shoulders.

Your analogy of God being responsible for sin if He gave Adam and Eve Free Will goes like this:

I build a car, it has the ability to go really fast, and the ability to drive at normal speeds. Just any other car. So, someone gets the car, breaks the speed limit in that car, wreck's, and then kills someone.... So now I'm responsible for everything, even though technically I didn't do anything except create a car that had capabilities. The person chose to do what they did with that car, NOT ME.

#12 Fred Williams

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Posted 03 February 2010 - 09:28 PM

Jesus said "you have not chosen me, I have chosen you" I get grief because I am stupid enough to believe Him...I challenged them to find a scripture saying that we at anytime have chosen the Lord.

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I'm closing this thread since it began with Suzie's usual strawman argument.

Fred




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