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How Old Is The Earth?


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#1 John Paul

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Posted 09 June 2005 - 08:24 AM

Wouldn't any method used to determine the age of the Earth require knowledge on how the Earth was formed? And seeing we don't know that then any speculation as to the Earth's age is just that, speculation.

We know that decay rates can be sped up. We also know that this causes a release of heat. We also know that heat is a source of energy, albeit an inefficient source (a lot of waste). We know this energy can be used or bled off (via a heat-sink).

If we use meteorites to calibrate Earth rocks that opens up new issues- What were the meteors subject to before they reached Earth?

So how can we tell how old the Earth really is?

#2 Fred Williams

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Posted 09 June 2005 - 11:22 AM

So how can we tell how old the Earth really is?

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By the genealogies in the Bible, we know it is approximately 6K years old. Some say up to 10K years, but they are compromising too much. :blink:

BTW, long time no see, welcome back JP. :)

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#3 Fred Williams

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Posted 09 June 2005 - 11:31 AM

We know that decay rates can be sped up. We also know that this causes a release of heat.

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Humphreys does address the heat problem in the first RATE book, in a plausible but fashion but by no means a slam dunk. I'm curious to see if he spends more time on this in his 2nd edition since this problem is often raised by both evos and creationists.

But the helium diffusion problem may also be just 6K years of decay, not rapid decay if daughter Pb was already present from the start. Whatever the case, it is very difficult for the evolutionist to explain this problem. It doesn't fit their model at all, their "explanations" seem much less credible than the creationist model, where accepting initial daughter Pb, or rapid decay seems much more reasonable to explain the helium diffusion in zircon anomoly. You ahve to admit the graph and following predictions lining up remarkably well is some very provocative stuff!

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#4 John Paul

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Posted 09 June 2005 - 02:21 PM

Thanks Fred, it's good to see the forum up & running again.

Some thoughts on the heat issue:

1. Heat transfer from the surface to the core (stoke the furnace so you can "set it & forget it")
2. The heat was the energy used to create the living organisms
3. The heat was the energy used to create other required compounds
4. Heat loss pre atmosphere
5. Heat loss to the atmosphere

#5 Mariner Fan

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Posted 13 June 2005 - 10:14 AM

Wouldn't any method used to determine the age of the Earth require knowledge on how the Earth was formed? And seeing we don't know that then any speculation as to the Earth's age is just that, speculation.


All that is assumed is that the laws of physics and chemistry were the same in the past as they are now. The chemical makeup of the rock and it's physical characteristics tell you how it was formed. Geologists can do this because the formation of these rock types can be observed both in the field and in the lab.

We know that decay rates can be sped up. We also know that this causes a release of heat. We also know that heat is a source of energy, albeit an inefficient source (a lot of waste). We know this energy can be used or bled off (via a heat-sink).


The decay rates used in the dating of rocks can not be sped up by anything found in or on Earth. Potassium 40 decay, for example, is only sped up by 6% at pressures found 75 km below the surface of the earth. For the earth to be as young as YEC's claim this rate would have to sped up by factors of a 1,000 or 1,000,000.

And yes, this heat can be bled off, bled off into the atmosphere. However, this has dire consequences for life on earth. The atmosphere is a much more effecient heat sink than radiating heat into the vacuum of space, therefore heat would necessarily have to build up in the atmosphere.

If we use meteorites to calibrate Earth rocks that opens up new issues- What were the meteors subject to before they reached Earth?


They were subjected to the vacuum of space. Meteors are a record of the time when liquid rock solidified into solid masses. The earth is thought to have solidified at around the same tiime, give or take a few million years. I think this is a pretty solid assumption, if both meteors and the Earth were both present when the solar system first formed. The rocks on earth are subject to solidification and remelting due to the active nature of earth's mantle and crust. Therefore it is very difficult to find rock that was formed during the Earth's initial solidification. If memory serves, the oldest rock dated on Earth is approximately 3.5 billion years old.

So how can we tell how old the Earth really is?

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As an absolute fact it is unknowable. However, given the evidence at hand, it is approximately 4.55 billion years old beyond any scientifically reasonable doubt. Science does not deal in absolute facts, only supported theories. Absolute facts are the outputs of philosophy, not science.

#6 Dan Jefferson

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Posted 25 June 2005 - 01:37 AM

I had an argue with my non-christian fellow worker a couple of days ago, he claims that the Earth is about 4.6 billion year old. Of course that is a ridiculous claim, but he believes that. He stated that 'radiometric dating' proofs his argument, and he showed me couple of links that tell something about it, http://www.gate.net/...s/AgeEarth.html and http://pubs.usgs.gov...eotime/age.html . I'm not really scientific person, so could you help me to proof that his 'radiometric dating' is false?

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Posted 25 June 2005 - 02:13 AM

Actually, I believe it's true. The earth is over 4 billions years old, but yet creation is 6000 years ago. How?

Since God can create life fully formed, and with age, what could He do with planets, and the universe? But why would He do such a thing?

1) To prove His power over time through eternity.
2) To show His glory through creation. So that when man looked at it, it would be unexplainable.

Example:
1. Let's take a earth that is only 6000 years old. Why would not life be sustainable on it? It would be to hot.
Let's take a earth that is over 4 billion years old, and guess what? Just perfect.

2. Lets take a sun that is 6000 years old. What about it that would make life not sustainable on earth? It would be unstable.
Let's take a sun that is ten billion years old. Again, just perfect.

And if he does not believe you. Ask him why all things in the universe date differently, even though they all came from the samething? Should not all things date back to the original?

So I don't think the dating methods are off, science just does not like where they lead. Because when you start asking about the different ages, they'll come up with an scientific dating excuse which actually shows more flaws in the dating process.

Ever wonder why science has to explain things through theories? This is why?
Ever wonder why science says there are no absolutes?
Ever wonder why science has turned away from looking at the odds of something happening and just say it did?

You can't find truth in something that was never designed to find it in the first place. And if someone wants to debate this, I would ask: why is there not a step, in the levels of theories, for one becoming truth?

#8 John Paul

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Posted 26 June 2005 - 09:45 AM

Mariner Fan:
And yes, this heat can be bled off, bled off into the atmosphere. However, this has dire consequences for life on earth. The atmosphere is a much more effecient heat sink than radiating heat into the vacuum of space, therefore heat would necessarily have to build up in the atmosphere.


But there isn't any "vacuum of space", and if the heat was bled off pre-atmosphere, into the cold of space, as I posted, what then?

QUOTE
If we use meteorites to calibrate Earth rocks that opens up new issues- What were the meteors subject to before they reached Earth?

Mariner Fan:
They were subjected to the vacuum of space.


But there isn't any "vacuum of space"...

BTW, the nebula hypothesis is still a hypothesis for a reason.

#9 Fred Williams

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Posted 26 June 2005 - 01:06 PM

:blink: Hello Dan,

In a nutshell, there are three problems with radiometric dating: 1) it is based on improvable assumptions (amount of parent/daughter at start, closed system, constant decay rate), 2) blind testing is rarely used, 3) there are far more chronometers that contradict radiometric dates.

Most evidences for a young earth are really evidences against an old earth (in other words, evidence that puts an upper limit on the age of the earth that is far under the assumed age of 4.6 billion years). There are some evidences that do point to an earth under 10K years, such as the decay of earth’s magnetic field, and the recent and very compelling example of helium in zircons (see this thread).

Since this is such a big topic, I’m just going to point you to a good place to start regarding radiometric dating and the problems with it, from a Biblical creationist perspective, of course: :D

http://www.answersin.../faq/dating.asp

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#10 RockerforChrist14

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Posted 27 June 2005 - 10:12 PM

"yet the evidence that a big bang happened is all around, does not knowing the cause discount the fact?"

What evidence? The evidence of all of this order and intelligence somehow giving proof that it all came together by chance?

"Or to put it a somewhat different perspective: If I don’t know the precise cause of a headache, yet taking aspirin cures the headache, does not knowing how aspirin works prove that headaches are impossible?"

First off, aspirins don't cure headaches. I got this from h*vind by the way. If you're driving down the highway and your oil light comes on, you have two options. A: You can fix the problem, or B: You can unplug the light. Aspirins just unplug the light, not fix the problem. :)

"We can see and measure the expansion, plug that into computer, wind the clock back and you get 3.5 billion years!"

Wow, so the big bang happened 3.5 billion years ago, and the earth is 4.6 billion years old. The earth was around before the big bang?

"Same sort of principle as discovering the orbital parameters of a comet, watch what is doing in the present by plotting it’s course, then just reverse the equation in time to see where it came from."

First of all, WHAT? Lol. And second, I think I already see a big assumption there even though I don't really understand what you meant. The assumption is that A: Time is a constant, B: the comet has always been moving at the same speed.

"(Note gravitation can also cause redshift, but this is not being addressed in this chapter)."

You assume that light is affected by gravity. The same assumption is in the black hole idea. Yet nobody really has any idea what light is.

"Group: Members
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Creationist
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Uh, that's a bit confusing to me. You're NOT a Christian, but you're a creationist? Maybe I'll find out later what that means after I read some more of your posts John Paul.

"However, given the evidence at hand, it is approximately 4.55 billion years old beyond any scientifically reasonable doubt."

Really.... I could put up some good scientific doubts. I'd even start with your very own radiometric dating methods to show the anomalies. I think the best explanation for radiometric dating is that the daughter element was already present. However, Admin3 puts up a VERY good explanation as well.

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Posted 28 June 2005 - 12:25 AM

My question about Big Bang: If it all came from one object that exploded, should it not all date back to it? And should not all bits of matter be related to the original as well? But yet each planet is different in it's make. As if they all did not come from the samething. Whay is that?

How things are:

matter= bang------sun-----------------earth
-------13 billion--10 billion-----------4.3 billion

Should it not be this instead?

Matter= bang--------sun----------------earth
------13 billion-----13 billion----------13 billion

All because it came from matter that exploded 13 billion years ago. It should all date the same. This actually shows another flaw in dating.

#12 John Paul

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Posted 28 June 2005 - 05:01 AM

crystal:
Uh, that's a bit confusing to me. You're NOT a Christian, but you're a creationist? Maybe I'll find out later what that means after I read some more of your posts John Paul.


Creationists come in many denominations. I happen to be a Muslim who is not a follower of the Nation of Islam. I know of Hindu Creationists. Islam, Judaism, and Christiantity all share Abraham and they all share Genesis.

Creation is not a Christian thing. I also know of IDists that are agnostic...



To Admin 3:

Rad dating depends upon when that isotope was formed. If every isotope was formed at the big-bang, you would have a point. But that is not how it is hypothesized to have happened. Stars are the ultimate alchemists. When stars go nova or supernova that is when most isotopes are formed. Then they are scattered via the subsequent explosion. (that's the naturalistic scenario). So that means the Rad decay can only start then- when the isotope forms.

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Posted 28 June 2005 - 11:22 AM

Creationists come in many denominations. I happen to be a Muslim who is not a follower of the Nation of Islam. I know of Hindu Creationists. Islam, Judaism, and Christiantity all share Abraham and they all share Genesis.

Creation is not a Christian thing. I also know of IDists that are agnostic...
To Admin 3:

Rad dating depends upon when that isotope was formed. If every isotope was formed at the big-bang, you would have a point. But that is not how it is hypothesized to have happened. Stars are the ultimate alchemists. When stars go nova or supernova that is when most isotopes are formed. Then they are scattered via the subsequent explosion. (that's the naturalistic scenario). So that means the Rad decay can only start then- when the isotope forms.

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Then this shows another flaw. And we really don't know how old our origins really are, or how old our planet really is if all dating of this kind relies on isotopes to form.

Example:

matter= bang------------------------------sun-------------------------earth
We really don't know when-----------How can we really tell the age?
big bang happen.

#14 chance

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Posted 28 June 2005 - 07:21 PM

I suppose part of the problem is just how an accurate answer you want?
Much has been said of the big bang and if it happened, and much of the opposition is based on Scientist inability to give a definitive model (which is not really a problem). For example - imagine you are standing in a field with a blind fold on, a explosion occurs some distance away, you a left with no doubt about the fact that there was an explosion, you hear it, feel the pressure wave, but do you know what chemicals were use? TNT, cordite, petroleum gas etc.

The age of the universe is in part a calculation on the temperature of the cosmic background radiation and the rate of expansion, in addition to measuring the age of various types of stars, however these give lower limits to a age and are not a definitive calendar. But basically the answerer has fluctuated between 11 and 20 billion years ago depending on what hypothesis is used (although there is stronger evidence to the 13-15 mark). It still a hotly contested area of research that has change quite a few times in our lifetime.

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Posted 28 June 2005 - 09:28 PM

I suppose part of the problem is just how an accurate answer you want? 
Much has been said of the big bang and if it happened, and much of the opposition is based on Scientist inability to give a definitive model (which is not really a problem).   For example - imagine you are standing in a field with a blind fold on, a explosion occurs some distance away, you a left with no doubt about the fact that there was an explosion, you hear it, feel the pressure wave, but do you know what chemicals were use? TNT, cordite, petroleum gas etc. 

The age of the universe is in part a calculation on the temperature of the cosmic background radiation and the rate of expansion, in addition to measuring the age of various types of stars, however these give lower limits to a age and are not a definitive calendar.  But basically the answerer has fluctuated between 11 and 20 billion years ago depending on what hypothesis is used (although there is stronger evidence to the 13-15 mark).  It still a hotly contested area of research that has change quite a few times in our lifetime.

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Which could also mean a new way could be on the horizon that would show why things date older than what they are. Because one material could date less than 10,000 years old, while the other dates much older. Showing two time frames.

1) The material used was blank years old.
2) But the age marker material only dates less than 10,000 years old.

Proving two things.

1) God used aged material during creation.
2) And created less than 10,000 years ago.

Why? Why go around what God used to show what was done, and how it was done? God being the creator, and making living creatures and beings already aged and fully formed, why not also use the same method in creating physical objects?

The problem I see is that because science does not understand this, it would be thrown off as a fluke. And they would stick with the dating method that dates things much older.

#16 RockerforChrist14

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Posted 28 June 2005 - 10:26 PM

"When stars go nova or supernova that is when most isotopes are formed."

And how do you suppose stars formed after the big bang? Stellar evolution, like all of the other types of evolution except MICRO, have never been observed anywhere, and are simply assumed to have happened.

#17 John Paul

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Posted 29 June 2005 - 05:44 AM

To crystaleaglesprings:

Stars first formed because the design required stars. IOW stars were the intention of the designer. A naturalistic mechanism to make, spread and recycle the elements.

To Admin 3:

That is correct. We do not really know. However we can infer by investigating the evidence. And yes inferences are usually biased.

Dr. Humphreys has a solution- Starlight & Time. It has to do with event horizons and what happens to time at the event horizons compared to what happens to time many miles away. According to Hawking time slows, almost to a stop, at the EH but if one looked back, say at the Earth, time would be moving forward very rapidly. So if the universe was created from a white hole, when the EH was passing through Earth, billions of years of processes would have occurred outside of the EH.

#18 chance

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Posted 29 June 2005 - 02:17 PM

Which could also mean a new way could be on the horizon that would show why things date older than what they are.

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Indeed, but I seriously doubt any new evidence will give wildly differing results from what we have already, hmmmm is 11 to 20 billion wildly different :)


Proving two things.

1) God used aged material during creation.
2) And created less than 10,000 years ago.

Why? Why go around what God used to show what was done, and how it was done? God being the creator, and making living creatures and beings already aged and fully formed, why not also use the same method in creating physical  objects?

The problem I see is that because science does not understand this, it would be thrown off as a fluke. And they would stick with the dating method that dates things much older.

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What you are proposing is not science in the true sense of the word, the unknown remains unknown there is no need to give a definitive answer, one can postulate for sure, but if one categorically says “God did this or that” and subsequent findings later on actually find a materialist explanation, what then?

#19 chance

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Posted 29 June 2005 - 02:24 PM

"When stars go nova or supernova that is when most isotopes are formed."

And how do you suppose stars formed after the big bang? Stellar evolution, like all of the other types of evolution except MICRO, have never been observed anywhere, and are simply assumed to have happened.

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Gravity is the prime cause for stellar evolution, in a random universe when matter come together the combined affect of gravity increases exponentially. Once started it's unstoppable.

There are many stellar nurseries under observation, google on the eagle nebula the Hubbell has taken some spectacular images.

#20 chance

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Posted 29 June 2005 - 02:30 PM

Dr. Humphreys has a solution- Starlight & Time. It has to do with event horizons and what happens to time at the event horizons compared to what happens to time many miles away. According to Hawking time slows, almost to a stop, at the EH but if one looked back, say at the Earth, time would be moving forward very rapidly. So if the universe was created from a white hole, when the EH was passing through Earth, billions of years of processes would have occurred outside of the EH.

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relativity re EH is for the observer, time marches on for the rest of the universe, someone passing through an EH will be crushed in very short order (even if it does not appear so).

No evidence for White holes that I’m aware off (these being philosophic solutions for the steady state model if memory serves).

“Starlight and Time” has some serious flaws, and is more to do with postulation not investigation.




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