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Why Is The Genesis Right And Other Creation Stories Not?


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#1 Guest_Monty_Lovering_*

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Posted 21 March 2010 - 08:44 AM

<edited to add, sorry, I mucked up the title cutting it down to 50 characters>

Hi,

I am new to the forum and quite fascinated by some of the discussions here.

I come from a very religious background where evolution was anathema. Bear with me - I know this is a Biblical Q&A section.

Unlike many of you from a Christian background, or who have adopted a Christian faith, I did not have ANY freedom to follow my own conscience. Eventually I broke away from my parent's cultic belief system. Please realise I in no way suggest Christianity as a whole is a cult, only some extreme forms are cultic, just as any belief system can become intolerant and totalitarian, be it based around Jesus, Mohammed, or whoever.

I became an atheist, went to University, and got myself an education in my 30's. I accepted after much study the evidence for evolution. Initially I was very dismissive of Christian's with non-literal belief systems, as I was blinded to the possibility of metaphor or allegory. Their beliefs HAD to be literal interpretations of scripture, or they "weren't right".

Eventually I realised I was actually repeating the errors that had been imprinted on me in my upbringing; I was being totalitarian and intolerant of beliefs systems I had no belief in myself, thinking I was able to determine if they were "doing it properly" by my literalistic view of whatever scriptures they held to (be in Bible, Qu'ran, or whatever).

I think as a result of my study of secular literature I realised that for any corpus of text there is a virtually infinite number of interpretations. I applied the same knowledge - that any belief in the possibility of a fixed meaning of a body of text was at best unwise to religious scripture.

I mean, how can one say with certainty that there were 24 hour creative days, but that locusts with sulphur breast-plates and multi-headed monsters are not? It would seem the evidence around us dictate both are allegorical

I accepted that it is perfectly possible to believe in modern science's best interpretation of the evidence AND have a belief that may have no independently verifiable evidence.

To me, well, my beliefs are not contained in black ink on pulped trees. I refuse to deny the possibility that a creative entity can guide the development of life in any way they might wish. Insisting that it HAS to be the way envisaged by the writers of Genesis is akin to limiting the power of god, however you see this.

It is like saying that if god wants to get dice to come up with a four and a five, he needs to place them with those numbers face up. If god is god, all it need do is blow on them and throw; they'll come up any way it desires.

This whole literalism seems to be part of a long history wherein a person’s personal experience of the divine is devalued by externally imposed, institutional, dogmatic belief, and where divergence from this is punishable with adverse consequences. It would seem that many of the errors of any belief system stem from an insistence that man or woman CAN have certain knowledge of spiritual things

So, rather than debate about evolution, I would like to ask what evidence there is that the Creation story in the Bible is true, and that creation stories of other belief systems are not.

#2 Scanman

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Posted 21 March 2010 - 09:40 AM

<edited to add, sorry, I mucked up the title cutting it down to 50 characters>

Hi,

I am new to the forum and quite fascinated by some of the discussions here.

I come from a very religious background where evolution was anathema. Bear with me - I know this is a Biblical Q&A section.

Unlike many of you from a Christian background, or who have adopted a Christian faith, I did not have ANY freedom to follow my own conscience. Eventually I broke away from my parent's cultic belief system. Please realise I in no way suggest Christianity as a whole is a cult, only some extreme forms are cultic, just as any belief system can become intolerant and totalitarian, be it based around Jesus, Mohammed, or whoever.

I became an atheist, went to University, and got myself an education in my 30's. I accepted after much study the evidence for evolution. Initially I was very dismissive of Christian's with non-literal belief systems, as I was blinded to the possibility of metaphor or allegory. Their beliefs HAD to be literal interpretations of scripture, or they "weren't right".

Eventually I realised I was actually repeating the errors that had been imprinted on me in my upbringing; I was being totalitarian and intolerant of beliefs systems I had no belief in myself, thinking I was able to determine if they were "doing it properly" by my literalistic view of whatever scriptures they held to (be in Bible, Qu'ran, or whatever).

I think as a result of my study of secular literature I realised that for any corpus of text there is a virtually infinite number of interpretations. I applied the same knowledge - that any belief in the possibility of a fixed meaning of a body of text was at best unwise to religious scripture.

I mean, how can one say with certainty that there were 24 hour creative days, but that locusts with sulphur breast-plates and multi-headed monsters are not? It would seem the evidence around us dictate both are allegorical

I accepted that it is perfectly possible to believe in modern science's best interpretation of the evidence AND have a belief that may have no independently verifiable evidence.

To me, well, my beliefs are not contained in black ink on pulped trees. I refuse to deny the possibility that a creative entity can guide the development of life in any way they might wish. Insisting that it HAS to be the way envisaged by the writers of Genesis is akin to limiting the power of god, however you see this.

It is like saying that if god wants to get dice to come up with a four and a five, he needs to place them with those numbers face up. If god is god, all it need do is blow on them and throw; they'll come up any way it desires.

This whole literalism seems to be part of a long history wherein a person’s personal experience of the divine is devalued by externally imposed, institutional, dogmatic belief, and where divergence from this is punishable with adverse consequences. It would seem that many of the errors of any belief system stem from an insistence that man or woman CAN have certain knowledge of spiritual things

So, rather than debate about evolution, I would like to ask what evidence there is that the Creation story in the Bible is true, and that creation stories of other belief systems are not.

View Post


Monty,

Welcome!

Why not change your worldview to Agnostic?

Maybe someday you can join me on the Theistic Evolutionary side of things.

In spite of the joke that modern religion makes of true Christianity...I think that you know (based on your background and obvious study) deep down inside, who Jesus was, what he taught and the sacrifice he made.

Love God...
Love your neighbor as yourself.

Peace

#3 Guest_Monty_Lovering_*

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Posted 21 March 2010 - 11:42 AM

Monty,

Welcome!

Why not change your worldview to Agnostic?

Maybe someday you can join me on the Theistic Evolutionary side of things.

In spite of the joke that modern religion makes of true Christianity...I think that you know (based on your background and obvious study) deep down inside, who Jesus was, what he taught and the sacrifice he made.

Love God...
Love your neighbor as yourself.

Peace

View Post


Hi Scanman,

Hmmm, well, as it seems labels are important here, atheist is just fine by me.

I am certain (not agnostoc) about the absence of what I would call satifactory evidence of the typical conception of god as held by many in the Judaeo-Christo-Islamic tradition. This is something different to denying the possibility that something like that could exist; how can I do that? I am sure we call know the impossibility of proving something that doesn't exist doesn't exist.

I know lots of different concepts regarding Jesus as well, from myth through enlightened (non-supernaturally) man all the way to god incarnate. However, my thoughts about Jesus can wait until another thread. Funnily enough I was at my girlfriend's rehersal for her part in "Jesus Christ Superstar" today, and whatever one's beliefs are, it has some great songs in it.

Thanks for your welcome; what is your answer to the question I asked? I don;t know if you have ever compared different creation stories. There are creationists of Muslim, Mormon, and Hindu beliefs, as well as Christian ones (of the two or three predominant schools of Creationism). None agree with each other and none can provide proof of their creative hypothesis.

How can someone genuinely seeking truth know, in absence of personal revelation, which is right? How can one be sure that personal revelation is accurate, given that believers in different creative stories all sincerely claim such revelation? Surely if we take the Bible's council regarding being careful we are not mislead seriously, being 100% certain we are right is the easiest way to be mislead?

I think you recognise the problem, judging by your theistic evolutionist label. But your comment regarding Jesus seems to move a step back from the true non-specific nature of 'theist'. Are you in fact more accurately a Christian evolutionist? I know some might argue whether that is possible but I certainly don't!

#4 Dave

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Posted 21 March 2010 - 12:51 PM

Monty,

The reason why Genesis is "true," and the creation myths of other religions (and evolution) are not is because of God's Word.

The Bible is 66 books, penned under God's inspiration by 40 authors, over thousands of years of time. It is an integrated message system that works together to tell us God's plan for mankind.

As such, Genesis is the foundation for God's Word. Anyone who professes to be a Christian (and we've seen it happen time after time after time on this forum) who has a problem with the first 10 words of the Bible (KJV) will be bound to have problems with the rest of God's Word.

Without the literal understanding of Genesis one cannot understand why Jesus had to die, or might not even believe that He did die for us. Jesus and His apostles quoted from Genesis and the Old Testament hundreds of times. They took all the "stories" of the OT literally. For us to do otherwise would be to make a mockery of their faith and literal walk with the Lord.

About those other religions, particularly the cults like you mentioned, one sure sign of their cult status is how they view Jesus. If Jesus to them is anything other than God who was born a man, died for our sins and rose again, and is presently sitting at the right hand of God waiting for the right time for his Second Coming, then they are not a true Christian religion.

And, to them, the foundational disbelief that prevents them from knowing Jesus in that way, is they deny the foundation of God's Word -- Genesis.

It's really as simple as that.

I hope this helps.

Dave

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Posted 21 March 2010 - 02:45 PM

Monty,

The reason why Genesis is "true," and the creation myths of other religions (and evolution) are not is because of God's Word.

The Bible is 66 books, penned under God's inspiration by 40 authors, over thousands of years of time. It is an integrated message system that works together to tell us God's plan for mankind.

As such, Genesis is the foundation for God's Word. Anyone who professes to be a Christian (and we've seen it happen time after time after time on this forum) who has a problem with the first 10 words of the Bible (KJV) will be bound to have problems with the rest of God's Word.

Without the literal understanding of Genesis one cannot understand why Jesus had to die, or might not even believe that He did die for us. Jesus and His apostles quoted from Genesis and the Old Testament hundreds of times. They took all the "stories" of the OT literally. For us to do otherwise would be to make a mockery of their faith and literal walk with the Lord.

About those other religions, particularly the cults like you mentioned, one sure sign of their cult status is how they view Jesus. If Jesus to them is anything other than God who was born a man, died for our sins and rose again, and is presently sitting at the right hand of God waiting for the right time for his Second Coming, then they are not a true Christian religion.

And, to them, the foundational disbelief that prevents them from knowing Jesus in that way, is they deny the foundation of God's Word -- Genesis.

It's really as simple as that.

I hope this helps.

Dave

View Post


Hi Dave,

Well, I understand this is what you might believe, but it doesn't really address my question.

I fully respect that this argument might be good enough for you, but to me to argue that Genesis is true is because the Bible is 'inspired of god and beneficial' is circular reasoning.

I assume you would object to me saying a scientific paper was true on the basis that it said it was. I don't accept the Bible is true because it says it is.

On that basis I would have to accept other religious books too, and they all contadict each other. It's not like the Qu'ran or Bhagadvita start off by saying 'this is a bunch of hokey, don't believe it'.

Either implicitly or explicitly all the well known religious texts say they are 'true'.

I'm asking for evidence that the Genesis creation account is true, and that the creation accounts of Muslims, Hindus, Mormons, etc., are not.

If you believe by faith alone, then that is fine for you, but obviously I can't accept that as proof for myself.

I'm just being little Borean (spelling?) here. And very open as to what I see as scripture.

#6 scott

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Posted 21 March 2010 - 08:53 PM

You can only be saved through faith... faith in Jesus Christ, faith that He alone died for your sins. The Genesis account connects itself with all the other books of the Bible, all the way to Jesus, and even to Revelation.

Alas, this is the way our Faith works. Do you understand? You are asking for proof, but just as easily, we can ask for proof of you to show us the proof for evolution, and proof for an no-God/gods universe.

Alot of what we believe is based on faith, and at our core it is faith. You have to humble yourself to believe through faith, and then through that faith in God, He alone will show you.

Of course this mostly likely sounds like a bunch of gibberish, coming from some ancient sheepish lore that for some reason or another... we just can't let go of our fetish for having faith in this man called Jesus Christ, or that the Earth was created in 6 days, and that Noah's flood actually happened. Therefore we just follow what the book says because God says so... basically... yes.

You ask for evidence? We have evidence, but you probably won't see it as such. For as long as you view our faith as just being sheepish/lemming like behaviour, then you will not see our points,nor our reasons. An open mind is needed, but not so much that your brains fall out... understand?

So, your question can be answered throughout this forum, and with your open mind, you will see what the evidence is, and you will see why the other religions can be easily dismissed. Of course that is, if you jump in with a closed mind... then you will not.

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Posted 21 March 2010 - 10:22 PM

You can only be saved through faith... faith in Jesus Christ, faith that He alone died for your sins.  The Genesis account connects itself with all the other books of the Bible, all the way to Jesus, and even to Revelation.

Alas, this is the way our Faith works.  Do you understand?  You are asking for proof, but just as easily, we can ask for proof of you to show us the proof for evolution, and proof for an no-God/gods universe.

Alot of what we believe is based on faith, and at our core it is faith.  You have to humble yourself to believe through faith, and then through that faith in God, He alone will show you.

Of course this mostly likely sounds like a bunch of gibberish, coming from some ancient sheepish lore that for some reason or another... we just can't let go of our fetish for having faith in this man called Jesus Christ, or that the Earth was created in 6 days, and that Noah's flood actually happened.  Therefore we just follow what the book says because God says so... basically... yes.

You ask for evidence?  We have evidence, but you probably won't see it as such.  For as long as you view our faith as just being sheepish/lemming like behaviour, then you will not see our points,nor our reasons.  An open mind is needed, but not so much that your brains fall out... understand?

So, your question can be answered throughout this forum, and with your open mind, you will see what the evidence is, and you will see why the other religions can be easily dismissed.  Of course that is, if you jump in with a closed mind... then you will not.

View Post


Thank you for such an honest and direct answer Scott. I am well aware of the belief you describe - and of why if you hold this belief maintaining a strict literal interpretation of the Bible may seem important.

I suppose with my background it is hardly surprising that being expected to believe other people's opinions essentially because they say so (excluding personal revelation) is a 'big ask'.

Been there, done that, can see why it was a very bad idea. My reading of holy scriptureS (i.e. not the Bible alone) and understanding of the evidence around me comes up with a very different personal opinion.

I can't prove it, but then those with diametric religious beliefs cannot prove theirs either. This alone opens huge questions as regards whether 'the way' is indeed as narrow and exclusive as some claim.

Logically a god worthy of praise and worship would not 'fix the game' so that someone could sincerely and after a thorough investigation arrive at wrong opinion due to lack of clear evidence, and suffer adverse concequences for it. Let's call it the 'Hindu' problem. Lots of Hindu's, generally peaceful kind people, very little interest in the Christian belief system but also very concerned with their spiritual life. If they had evidence they were on a false path, I think they would change. But they don't, and see their tradition as being of equivalent value of ours.

Some people's interpretation of the Bible condems large portions of the Earth' popultion to damnation because of lack of cler evidence. I find such a view of god inconsistent with the core of the message about the divine, indeed at odds with any
non-partisan concept of 'grace'.

Of course, some may indeed believe such things as the doctrine of the elect, and I respect their right to do this, but it is not fo me internally consistent with the god I see in the words of Jesus.

My own experience of 'organised religion' is that it is essentially not the sanctification of the divine and of mankind's relationship with it, but rather the elevation of human opinions to the point of idolatry.

And the fact you may feel there is no proof for evolution if not pertinent to my question. I have been round the block many many times with that discussion. Maybe another day.

If indeed "other religions can be easily dismissed", then please give me the smoking gun evidence of this. I have not found any that differentiates Chrsitianity or any particular school of Christianity from other religions, or I would not be asking this question.

#8 ikester7579

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Posted 21 March 2010 - 10:30 PM

<edited to add, sorry, I mucked up the title cutting it down to 50 characters>

Hi,

I am new to the forum and quite fascinated by some of the discussions here.

I come from a very religious background where evolution was anathema. Bear with me - I know this is a Biblical Q&A section.

Unlike many of you from a Christian background, or who have adopted a Christian faith, I did not have ANY freedom to follow my own conscience. Eventually I broke away from my parent's cultic belief system. Please realise I in no way suggest Christianity as a whole is a cult, only some extreme forms are cultic, just as any belief system can become intolerant and totalitarian, be it based around Jesus, Mohammed, or whoever.

I became an atheist, went to University, and got myself an education in my 30's. I accepted after much study the evidence for evolution. Initially I was very dismissive of Christian's with non-literal belief systems, as I was blinded to the possibility of metaphor or allegory. Their beliefs HAD to be literal interpretations of scripture, or they "weren't right".

Eventually I realised I was actually repeating the errors that had been imprinted on me in my upbringing; I was being totalitarian and intolerant of beliefs systems I had no belief in myself, thinking I was able to determine if they were "doing it properly" by my literalistic view of whatever scriptures they held to (be in Bible, Qu'ran, or whatever).

I think as a result of my study of secular literature I realised that for any corpus of text there is a virtually infinite number of interpretations. I applied the same knowledge - that any belief in the possibility of a fixed meaning of a body of text was at best unwise to religious scripture.

I mean, how can one say with certainty that there were 24 hour creative days, but that locusts with sulphur breast-plates and multi-headed monsters are not? It would seem the evidence around us dictate both are allegorical

I accepted that it is perfectly possible to believe in modern science's best interpretation of the evidence AND have a belief that may have no independently verifiable evidence.

To me, well, my beliefs are not contained in black ink on pulped trees. I refuse to deny the possibility that a creative entity can guide the development of life in any way they might wish. Insisting that it HAS to be the way envisaged by the writers of Genesis is akin to limiting the power of god, however you see this.

It is like saying that if god wants to get dice to come up with a four and a five, he needs to place them with those numbers face up. If god is god, all it need do is blow on them and throw; they'll come up any way it desires.

This whole literalism seems to be part of a long history wherein a person’s personal experience of the divine is devalued by externally imposed, institutional, dogmatic belief, and where divergence from this is punishable with adverse consequences. It would seem that many of the errors of any belief system stem from an insistence that man or woman CAN have certain knowledge of spiritual things

So, rather than debate about evolution, I would like to ask what evidence there is that the Creation story in the Bible is true, and that creation stories of other belief systems are not.

View Post


Why does one need to have faith?
What is faith?
Why does the Bible require us to have faith?

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.
3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

Faith is a choice. If you choose to want to believe in God, but reject faith. Then you will never find God.

Evolution teaches that faith is taboo and therefore not required to find truth (a doctrine). So when the two are mixed, one has to be rejected as to not conflict with the other.

So if faith is not your choice, then neither is God. And nobody here can help you with that until you change your mind. So if evidence is what you want for everything in order to believe, then you reject the very bases of why anyone believes anything,

So let's test what you claim you want, against what you are ready to believe or accept.

Attached File  print_2.jpg   13.35KB   3 downloads

Now what's wrong with this picture?
Now what's right with this picture?

And if you were to look at it without prejudice, what would it tell you?
And if you look at it with prejudice, what would it tell you?

#9 Guest_Monty_Lovering_*

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Posted 21 March 2010 - 11:11 PM

Why does one need to have faith?
What is faith?
Why does the Bible require us to have faith?

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.
3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

Faith is a choice. If you choose to want to believe in God, but reject faith. Then you will never find God.

Evolution teaches that faith is taboo and therefore not required to find truth (a doctrine). So when the two are mixed, one has to be rejected as to not conflict with the other.

So if faith is not your choice, then neither is God. And nobody here can help you with that until you change your mind. So if evidence is what you want for everything in order to believe, then you reject the very bases of why anyone believes anything,

So let's test what you claim you want, against what you are ready to believe or accept.

Attached File  print_2.jpg   13.35KB   3 downloads

Now what's wrong with this picture?
Now what's right with this picture?

And if you were to look at it without prejudice, what would it tell you?
And if you look at it with prejudice, what would it tell you?

View Post



Hi there. So, you're not answering my question, as indeed is your right.

As far as your off-topic sally goes, just as you would ask for the origin of something I produced as evidence against your beliefs (a new version of Revelation which ended with some comment about the quality of mushrooms on Patmos, for example), could you please provide the provenance of the photo?

As far as I can determine it could be a prank. Where are these footprints? What investigation has been done of them?

#10 ikester7579

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Posted 21 March 2010 - 11:29 PM

Hi there. So, you're not answering my question, as indeed is your right.

As far as your off-topic sally goes, just as you would ask for the origin of something I produced as evidence against your beliefs (a new version of Revelation which ended with some comment about the quality of mushrooms on Patmos, for example), could you please provide the provenance of the photo?

As far as I can determine it could be a prank. Where are these footprints? What investigation has been done of them?

View Post


You failed the test of having faith. You already determined these are fakes which means you would never accept the evidence you ask for. Which makes this whole thread a waste of time.

The reason you conclude, with no evidence either way, that it's fake. Is because the evidence does not "conform" to what you currently accept.

Creationists always lie and make fake evidence, right?

That is what a prejudice person is.

Now why did I go to the trouble to do this? I find that when someone goes to a lot of trouble to convince people thay are neutral some what, they have an agenda with the thread.

You are playing the game "convince if you can". Show me the evidence. But when tested you reject it with no information on it. You made the comment: it's fake, because it does not matter because you have made up your mind. So to answer your questions at this point would be a waste of time. Why? What could anyone say or show you that would convince you when you have already shown you are going to be prejudice against anything brought up?

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Posted 22 March 2010 - 01:13 AM

You failed the test of having faith. You already determined these are fakes which means you would never accept the evidence you ask for. Which makes this whole thread a waste of time.

The reason you conclude, with no evidence either way, that it's fake. Is because the evidence does not "conform" to what you currently accept.

Creationists always lie and make fake evidence, right?

That is what a prejudice person is.

Now why did I go to the trouble to do this? I find that when someone goes to a lot of trouble to convince people thay are neutral some what, they have an agenda with the thread.

You are playing the game "convince if you can". Show me the evidence. But when tested you reject it with no information on it. You made the comment: it's fake, because it does not matter because you have made up your mind. So to answer your questions at this point would be a waste of time. Why? What could anyone say or show you that would convince you when you have already shown you are going to be prejudice against anything brought up?

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Deary me. I think god, whatever form god takes, will determine whether I fail any test regarding faith. I suggest you heed the council contained in the Bible before you judge me. Start with the book of James, it's quite interesting.

I really regret that you take this tone but I will try to keep it civil, as per the stated purpose of this board.

First of all there are fakes, both of secular things (be it bank notes or fossil evidence), and of supposedly religious things (there were probably enough relics of the true cross to build an ark, and are you saying you think the Book of Mormon is genuine, or a fake inspired document?).

So, rather than believing anything a person might tell you it is wise to make an accurate determination whether it is wise to do so; just as the Boreans (sp?) did when exposed to the Gospel for the first time. Someone can be wrong or misinformed and be entirely sincere in their beliefs.

There is a difference between faith and creduility. The Bible says "This mean everlasting life, having a vauge unsubstansiated knowldege of me and he who sent me"? No, of course not; it is ACCURATE KNOWLEDGE that is praised.

Me asking for details about an unattributed photo is, as I pointed out, no more unreasonable than you asking for details of an unattributed Biblical manuscript.

To try and attribute to me an opinion I did not express ("Creationists always lie and make fake evidence, right?") is a straw man argument and I would like you to apologise.

You are playing the game "convince if you can". Show me the evidence. But when tested you reject it with no information on it.


I play no game, unless any discussion between people of different opinions is no more than a game of chess which both will claim victory in, no matter the disposition of pieces at the conclusion.

What is unreasonable about rejecting supposed evidence when the one providing it refuses to provide information on it? If you don't know, say so, don't hide behind bluster and false accusations.

As far as I know you could sincerely believe this is real evidence, when it was faked by someone with, as you describe it, an agenda. Have you never made a mistake? Are you ithout fault or error? Of course not, you are as liable to human error as I am.

You made the comment: it's fake, because it does not matter because you have made up your mind.


I said it might be a prank. Please don't make misleading statements about me. That's two in one post; not a good start.

This board supposedly is for civil, honest dialogue about origins. Note the etymology of the word dialogue; it implies two way discussion, not a refusal to engage with someone asking reasonable questions.

I am simply asking what evidence you have your hypothesis of origins is more relaible than other religious hypotheses of origins.

Faith is all very well, but what you seem to ignore is that Hindus have FAITH, Mormons have FAITH, Muslims have FAITH. Gentlemen in jungles with loincloths who worship trees and rocks have FAITH.

What makes your faith stand out in a way that would make me adopt it? If I am to adopt beliefs based on faith alone, I would have six different religions before lunchtime.

If you refuse to answer reasonable questions about your faith, so be it, at least there are other people on this board who seem willing to enage in dialogue in a civil fashion.

Truth need not hide. If you wish to say you believe by faith alone and CANNOT differentiate to a third party why your faith is better than others, fair enough. Being honest should not reduce your faith by one iota, and I will respect your right to an opinion and candour.

I will await your apology for falsely atributing statements to me before I respond further to you as I don't wish this thread to become uncivil.

<<edited to add; you are moderator? Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?>>

#12 ikester7579

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Posted 22 March 2010 - 01:39 AM

You don't have to worry about it becoming uncivil because it's clear you are going to waste our time here. Bye.

#13 dwillis

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Posted 22 March 2010 - 06:14 AM

<edited to add, sorry, I mucked up the title cutting it down to 50 characters>

Hi,

I am new to the forum and quite fascinated by some of the discussions here.

I come from a very religious background where evolution was anathema. Bear with me - I know this is a Biblical Q&A section.

Unlike many of you from a Christian background, or who have adopted a Christian faith, I did not have ANY freedom to follow my own conscience. Eventually I broke away from my parent's cultic belief system. Please realise I in no way suggest Christianity as a whole is a cult, only some extreme forms are cultic, just as any belief system can become intolerant and totalitarian, be it based around Jesus, Mohammed, or whoever.

I became an atheist, went to University, and got myself an education in my 30's. I accepted after much study the evidence for evolution. Initially I was very dismissive of Christian's with non-literal belief systems, as I was blinded to the possibility of metaphor or allegory. Their beliefs HAD to be literal interpretations of scripture, or they "weren't right".

Eventually I realised I was actually repeating the errors that had been imprinted on me in my upbringing; I was being totalitarian and intolerant of beliefs systems I had no belief in myself, thinking I was able to determine if they were "doing it properly" by my literalistic view of whatever scriptures they held to (be in Bible, Qu'ran, or whatever).

I think as a result of my study of secular literature I realised that for any corpus of text there is a virtually infinite number of interpretations. I applied the same knowledge - that any belief in the possibility of a fixed meaning of a body of text was at best unwise to religious scripture.

I mean, how can one say with certainty that there were 24 hour creative days, but that locusts with sulphur breast-plates and multi-headed monsters are not? It would seem the evidence around us dictate both are allegorical

I accepted that it is perfectly possible to believe in modern science's best interpretation of the evidence AND have a belief that may have no independently verifiable evidence.

To me, well, my beliefs are not contained in black ink on pulped trees. I refuse to deny the possibility that a creative entity can guide the development of life in any way they might wish. Insisting that it HAS to be the way envisaged by the writers of Genesis is akin to limiting the power of god, however you see this.

It is like saying that if god wants to get dice to come up with a four and a five, he needs to place them with those numbers face up. If god is god, all it need do is blow on them and throw; they'll come up any way it desires.

This whole literalism seems to be part of a long history wherein a person’s personal experience of the divine is devalued by externally imposed, institutional, dogmatic belief, and where divergence from this is punishable with adverse consequences. It would seem that many of the errors of any belief system stem from an insistence that man or woman CAN have certain knowledge of spiritual things

So, rather than debate about evolution, I would like to ask what evidence there is that the Creation story in the Bible is true, and that creation stories of other belief systems are not.

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I just want to throw in something here. It has nothing to do really with the question you are asking.

I was not raised in a Christian home. My parents never took me to Church or tried to instill any kind of religion on me. I grew up an Agnostic. Went to college, believed in evolution, etc.

When I was 32, I heard the Gospel. After I heard & believed the Gospel, my initial thoughts were how can others be so blind about this? Its so CLEAR. Everything else was just rubbish.

I just wanted you to see that it works both ways.

#14 Hawkins

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Posted 23 March 2010 - 09:21 PM

Logically  a god worthy of praise and worship would not 'fix the game' so that someone could sincerely and after a thorough investigation arrive at wrong opinion due to lack of clear evidence, and suffer adverse concequences for it. Let's call it the 'Hindu' problem. Lots of Hindu's, generally peaceful kind people, very little interest in the Christian belief system but also very concerned with their spiritual life. If they had evidence they were on a false path, I think they would change. But they don't, and see their tradition as being of equivalent value of ours.

Some people's interpretation of the Bible condems large portions of the Earth' popultion to damnation because of lack of cler evidence. I find such a view of god inconsistent with the core of the message about the divine, indeed at odds with any
non-partisan concept of 'grace'.


It is because you don't need evidence to understand the reason behind. You are against His Law on earth and thus will be judged. God estimates/knows that you won't survive the trial/final judgment so He provides an alternative for you to escape legally such a trial.

Moreover, what is evidence? and what evidence do you expect from God. According to the New Covenant (the alternative I mentioned above), we need faith in order to be saved. If things become 'very evident', what faith do you have in order to be saved.

Now evidence, evidence is just something capable to tricking a human belief system such that he beliefs in something. While a truth can exist out of any evidence. For example when humans are premitive and have not much knowledge accumulated, there is no clear evidence that the black holes exist. And perhaps we are now just as 'premitive' as those ancient humans to know the truth of God.

#15 Hawkins

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Posted 23 March 2010 - 09:29 PM

So, rather than debate about evolution, I would like to ask what evidence there is that the Creation story in the Bible is true, and that creation stories of other belief systems are not.


There are no other sources of the stories are claimed to be from divine other than Christianity or perhaps islam. So they can be ignored. So perhaps you need a comparison between Christianity and islam to see who owns who. :D

#16 rico

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Posted 24 March 2010 - 03:47 PM

So, rather than debate about evolution, I would like to ask what evidence there is that the Creation story in the Bible is true, and that creation stories of other belief systems are not. ...I'm just being  little Borean (spelling?) here. And very open as to what I see as scripture.

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http://kidsranch.org...ies/bereans.htm
The bible is true because the bible is true - is a form of circular reasoning, I think thats what you were saying http://www.logicalfallacies.info/ Are you asking what makes the bible the authority?

#17 AFJ

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Posted 10 April 2010 - 08:52 AM

Been there, done that, can see why it was a very bad idea. My reading of holy scriptureS (i.e. not the Bible alone) and understanding of the evidence around me comes up with a very different personal opinion.

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Hi Monty,
So then the bottom line is what you accept as evidence for evolution is what brought to your personal opinion--not scripture. So now you are in the realm of the interpretations brought out by men--be they educated--as to what is observed indicates.

So if you see chorella form colonies of eight cells in response to a predator it gives an evidence of transition to multicellarity. I just answered this in another thread on the issue. These algae are revertant, which lends support to original kind, not evolution. Of course the rebuttal is selective pressure and/or lack of it guides the reversion. But I will counter that if selective pressure is the reason then scientist in the en vitro research should be able to add another selective pressure along with the predator in order to cause the evolution of seperate interdependent systems which in turn should be able to be selectively pressured into organs.

No time was needed for the eight cell adaptation--only selective pressure. So time is irrelavent here. The only thing that is relevant is pressure or lack thereof for reversion. So then it follows that added pressure should cause more evolution.

The fact is that there is no pressure that will cause the formation of organs in the colonies of chorella. If there was, our finest minds should be able to think up something in the natural world that would do this. But they have not, and they never will--because this kind of evolution is not possible, or able to be even imagined.

So then is this case, the so-called evidence by which you justify your belief in evolution is invalid. It is not strong at all.

Lo

gically  a god worthy of praise and worship would not 'fix the game' so that someone could sincerely and after a thorough investigation arrive at wrong opinion due to lack of clear evidence,

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Be aware that you should not blame God for man's errors. We are warned in scripture to beware of men's doctrines, which are based on men's traditions and opinions.

The word of God has been confirmed by many things. First and foremost is it's intrinsic power to change lives. It is sharper than a two edged sword and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart (Hebrews). Without it you can produce nothing--Iam the the vine and you are the brances...without me you can do nothing...If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and men gather them and they are burned...If you abide in me and ...Herein is my fater glorified, that you bear much fruit...(Jesus in John).

It is also confirmed by many signs and wonders, both past and present. All you have to do is research it in the lives of those that have experienced such.

So i encourage you to not be moved away from the gospel so easily, until you really take a look at the situation as a whole. Most importantly, ask God to lead you to truth and HE will.

#18 Steve Johnson

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Posted 30 May 2010 - 09:22 PM

Hi Monty,

I am not very familiar with the creation stories of other religions. I know the Muslims believe the Bible for the most part. Or at least the Old Testament.

To try to answer your question as directly as I can... I believe the Bible account of creation is true because everything I see in nature and Science is in full agreement with the Bible. In order to back that claim, I would obviously have to expound on many Scientific views. Here are a few examples of what I'm talking about.

The layers of sediment all over the earth are evidence of the flood.
The millions of fossils are evidence of the same thing as is the coal and oil we find.
The numerous evidences that the earth and the universe are indeed young back up the Bible in my view.

On a different note in favor of the Bible in general. The Bible has proven itself to be historically accurate.
We know with certainty where the Hebrews crossed the red sea.
The Hittites were thought for a long time to be a mythical nation in the Bible until an entire library was found written either by them or about them. I forget.
We have sufficient evidence to believe that Jesus of Nazareth not only was a man of history, but that He died and rose from the dead.

That's getting away from your question. The bottom line is that I believe the Bible because all my study has proven the Bible accurate and evolution impossible.

I have spoken to many Theistic Evolutionists. I would love to hear your take on these phases of Evolution. In order to believe that there is no God, you must believe that all these took place.

Cosmic. The origin of matter. Either the first or the second law of thermodynamics has to be broken in Atheistic evolution.

Stellar. The formation of stars. Regardless of what they say... no star star has been seen forming. The gas laws make this impossible.

Chemical. This one could have easily happened. The stars (once formed) would form the elements up to atomic weight 26. Then the heavier elements could have formed in supernovas.

Planetary. From a supernova our solar system supposedly formed. I have looked into this theory. It doesn't look possible. Three of the nine planets are rotating around the sun opposite from the others. Plus there are the gas laws. You just can't have matter come together and stick in a complete void.

Organic. The development of life from nonliving material. They have all kinds of theories, zero evidence. Was it an animal cell that evolved first? or a plant cell?

Macro-Evolution. The change of an animal into a different kind of animal. There is huge debate over the word "kind". Don't miss the point over a detail like that.

Micro-Evolution. This is the part that happens. Dogs produce a variety of dogs.

In my opinion, God's reality is a fact because the contrary is impossible. And since the Bible has not been disproven yet, I find complete reason to believe it is true.

God loves you and wants to be reconciled to you. Or should I say, He wants you to be reconciled to Him. For your own good, please reconsider your world view.




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