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#1 Cassiterides

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Posted 27 June 2010 - 11:48 AM

Thread for a discussion on Two House Theology.

Why Jews are not Israelites

We know that Saul was the first king of Israel and that John was the first man called Baptist, but who was the first Jew?

Neither Adam, Seth or Noah are called Jew. Nor were Abraham, Isaac or Jacob. Moses was not called a Jew and neither were Saul, David or Solomon called Jew. In fact you will not find the word Jew in the first eleven books of the Bible. The first time Jews are mentioned in the Bible, is in II Kings 16:6 (and then only in translations revised in the eighteenth century) where we find Israel was at war with the Jews and drave the Jews from Elath.

Isn't it interesting that we can read over five hundred pages of the Bible before we find a Jew anywhere, yet those who call themselves Jew today claim the first five books of the bible and call it their Torah. Do you not find it rather strange that those who claim to have written the first five books of the Bible and call themselves Jew, can't find the word Jew written anywhere in the book they call their own bible, and claim to have written?

In the days of Abraham, the term "Jew" was not used. Instead, you see the term "Hebrew" ("Israelite" only appears after Jacob changed his name to Israel). The term "Jew" didn't arise until after the Syro-Ephraimite wars of 735-721 BCE, when the tribe of Judah became the dominant tribe.

So to clarify: The first "Jewish" reference comes no sooner than with its appearance at 2nd Kings, 16:6.

Who are the Jews?

Where does the word "Jew" come from? It is simply an abbreviation for the word "Judah" in English. The Hebrew pronunciation and transliteration of Judah is "Yehudah" and individuals of Yehudah are sometimes called "Yehud''.

Jews vs. Israelites

After the fall of the united monarchy of Israel, Judah was at was with northern Israel. The two kingdoms were constantly engaged in war with each other and were never reconciled (1 Kings 14:30). Eventually the Northern Kingdom was defeated by Assyria (2 Kings 15:29) and a few decades later the Southern Kingdom fell to Babylonia. Therefore there were 10 lost tribes after the collapse of united monarchy of israel who were deported by the Assyrian Empire during several invasions starting in 740 BCE and culminating in 722 BCE with the sacking of the capital Samaria (II Kings 17:3-6).

We are told: ''The Lord was very angry with Israel and removed them out of His sight; there was none left but the Tribe of Judah only"- II Kings 17:18. It is clear the Israelites moved outside of Assyria and Asia, as confirmed by Assyrian tablets and historians such as Flavius Josephus.

The tribe of Judah however returned to their land after the Babylonian Captivity (597BC). After the Persians conquered Babylonia, Cyrus granted the Jews (Judah) permission to return to their native land. But the Israelites never returned to Israel, this is a vital point to understand.

CONTRAST BETWEEN ISRAEL AND JEWS

ISRAEL were to becalled by a new name (Isa. 62:2). The Jews have retained their oldname unchanged.

ISRAEL were to be a multitudinous people (Hos. 1:10). The Jews were to be bereft of children (Jer. 15:7).

ISRAEL were to become known as the righteous Nation that keepeth the truth (Isa. 26:2). The Jews were to be a reproach and a proverb, a taunt and a curse (Jer. 24:9).

ISRAEL were to become a Nation and a Company of Nations (Gen. 35:11). The Jews were to be scattered in all the ''kingdoms of the earth for their hurt"(Jer. 24:9).

ISRAEL were to make a new home in the Appointed Place - the Isles of the Sea (II Sam. 7:10 ; Isa. 24:15; Isa. 49:1; Jer. 31: 10, etc.). The Jews have been strangers in all lands (Jer. 15:4).

ISRAEL were to be a Nation for ever (Jer. 31:36). The Jewish nation was broken beyond repair in A.D. 70 (Dan. 9:24; Jer. 1 9: 11).

ISRAEL were to have a perpetual monarchy (Jer. 33:17). The Jews have no king on earth.

#2 ikester7579

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Posted 27 June 2010 - 01:20 PM

I have heard that it was Abraham because he was the first that God called friend. And God blessed his seed and said he would make a great nation of his descendants. Also called Abraham father of nations (God only considers His children a nation). Then went on to change Abraham's wife's name to a name that means princess. Giving Abraham the Father of nations title, and his wife a name that exalts her to a royal blood line was to ensure no one would question it.

#3 Hawkins

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Posted 27 June 2010 - 09:16 PM

Who are the Jews?


An identity is a two-way wording, that is, how you recognise yourself and how others recognise you. The children of Israel is refered to by others (as well as themselves perhaps) as the Hebrews.

Exodus 1:1-5

These are the names of the sons of Israel who went to Egypt with Jacob, each with his family: Reuben, Simeon, Levi and Judah; Issachar, Zebulun and Benjamin; Dan and Naphtali; Gad and Asher. The descendants of Jacob numbered seventy in all; Joseph was already in Egypt.

Exodus 2:11
One day, after Moses had grown up, he went out to where his own people were and watched them at their hard labor. He saw an Egyptian beating a Hebrew, one of his own people.

As a result, the line of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is referred to as the sons of Israel.

#4 Cassiterides

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Posted 28 June 2010 - 12:49 PM

My stress was on the fact, Jews are only a small portion of Israel. The 10 lost tribes were not Jews, nor are their descendants today.

There are two Houses, the House of Judah (the Jews) and the House of Israel (the 10 tribes). Both will be united at end times, that means today they are seperate.

#5 Hawkins

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Posted 28 June 2010 - 07:16 PM

My stress was on the fact, Jews are only a small portion of Israel. The 10 lost tribes were not Jews, nor are their descendants today.

There are two Houses, the House of Judah (the Jews) and the House of Israel (the 10 tribes). Both will be united at end times, that means today they are seperate.

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I think that it's ok to say so in a stricter sense and on a historical basis. But on the other hand, it's no wrong to call those in Exodus the Jews. <_< To me it is just a term for people to have a common ground for discussion.

#6 Seth

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Posted 31 July 2010 - 08:44 PM

Cass I agree that all Jews (from the tribe of Judah) are Israelites however not all Israelites are Jews.

I think your bolded statement "Why Jews are not Israelites" you meant "Why Israelites are not Jews"?

Israelites are all sons of Jacob, whos name God changed to Israel. This subject alone is a very fascinating study and discussion.

There's an interesting passage in Genesis 48 where Jacob (Israel) blesses Josephs two sons and criss-crosses his hands on their heads. Israel says some very interesting things about the two young boys. He even claims them as his own and tells Joseph that the rest of Joseph's children will be his but Ephraim and Manasseh will be "Mine" (Israel's) So Jacob here identifies the two boys as Israelites.

I've often wondered about that passage and the only nation I can think of that fits the description of becoming a multitude of nations is Great Britain. From Great Britain came forth many nations which include the United States, Australia, Canada, India, South Africa, Jamaica etc.

Now I don't claim this as "truth" I'm simply making the observation and in fact I've heard others make the same suggestion. I've heard others suggest that France may be descendants of Reuben, Ireland from the tribe of Dan, etc.

I've yet to find anything to really confirm this but what I do believe is that the Israelites have to include more than "just" the Jewish people (who are primarily from the tribe of Judah but includes Benjamin and Levites). I don't believe the other 10 tribes are "lost". We've just failed in identifying who they are today.

#7 AFJ

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 12:05 AM

My stress was on the fact, Jews are only a small portion of Israel. The 10 lost tribes were not Jews, nor are their descendants today.

There are two Houses, the House of Judah (the Jews) and the House of Israel (the 10 tribes). Both will be united at end times, that means today they are seperate.

View Post


You wouldn't be listening to Arnold Murray would you? You'd be getting off. This is a minimal point unless there is an underlying reason for this post. If there is, I ask you to be straight out with it.

It is true that the Jews were considered to be those from the southern kingdom as Jesus stated in John 4:22, when speaking to the Samaritan woman in Sychar

"You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews."


But in another passage, he recognizes the "nation" or "house" of Israel. Only not as Cassiterides would argue.

But he answered and said, I am not sent but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.  Matthew 15:24


Now it is obvious went to both "houses." But these houses were the work of man, as I state later, not the work of God. Jesus recognizes Israel as he intended it to be--one nation.

We need to be careful of our attitude and beliefs toward the physical seed of Abraham, as there is error being propogated today about the Jews which is contrary to scripture. Romans 11 should be our guide in this issue.

Paul was a Benjamite (Judah) and calls himself an "Israelite." This is opposite of what Cassiterides is arguing.

Romans 11:1  I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.


It is also evident in Acts that God called the apostles to Samaria after Jerusalem, because they were the physical seed of Abraham, then to the gentiles. Acts 1:8

Jesus also teaches about the good Samaritan when asked the question "Who is my neighbor?" Luke 10:25-37

It was not God's perfect will for them to separate. You can read the account when Jereboam and Rheoboam split the kingdom. It was the work of men and not God--it has nothing to do with the promises made to Abraham. Judah and Benjamin stayed in the south with Jerusalem the capital. Samaria became the capital of the northern kingdom, and the ten tribes split off.

This whole concept only leads into more error, with every wind of doctrine being introduced. Stay with Romans 11 and the book of Galatians. God promised Abraham that in Issac his seed would be called ( Genesis 21:12, Romans 9:7; Hebrews 11:18). So everyone that is a descendent of Issac is a Jew, and a Hebrew. A Ruebenite had the same promises and law as a Benjamite, and a Levite had the same word of God as someone from Judah.

They are all Jews. If you read the gospels, you get a distinction, but after John, the rest of Acts and the epistles call all Hebrews "Jews." And it is clear the greek speaking gentiles called Israelites "Jews."

Romans 3:29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:

But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

Sorry to be a party pooper. But there are some like Arnold Murray, who want to get our attention off the teaching of true salvation, by introducing a homogeneous definition of Israel contrary to Romans 11, the teaching that America is part of the lost tribes, the preexistence of humanity, and refraining from certain foods. This stuff is error and a distraction from Christ.

#8 Cassiterides

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 07:26 AM

This is a minimal point unless there is an underlying reason for this post.  If there is, I ask you to be straight out with it.


Two-House Theology is a major part of prophecy and historical fact.

A brief history recap:

The Kingdom of Israel, the northern ten tribes, were taken into Assyrian captivity starting in the 8th century BC, culminating in 721 BCE with the seizure of Samaria (2 Kings 15:29; 1 Chronicles 5: 26; 2 Kings 17: 3-6). While the Israelites were deported from their land to Assyria and settled in the Medes, the House of Judah nearly entirely remained (2 King 17: 18; 18: 11). The Kingdom of Judah was not captured by the Israelites, only a tiny portion was according to 2 Kings 18: 13 and their fate is not known. A monument at the British Museum of Sennacherib records that 46 small towns of Judah were ransacked and captured by the Assyrians, this is in contrast to the whole of the Kingdom of Israel.

The Israelites are said to have been moved into Assyria and the Medes, so the Kingdom of Israel vanished in the 8th century BC (2 Kings 18: 11). Judah however remained until the Babylonian Captivity.

Unlike the Kingdom of Judah, which was able to return from its Babylonian Captivity after Cyrus granted them permission, the tribes of Israel never had a permission to return and rebuild their homeland in the 8th century BC. We are told they were removed as noted to Assyria and the Medes, but 2 Esras 13: 40-45 states they moved into a place called Arzareth or Arsareth beyond the Euphrates:

Note verses 40-45:

[40]Those are the ten tribes, which were carried away prisoners out of their own land in the time of Osea the king, whom Salmanasar the king of Assyria led away captive, and he carried them over the waters, and so came they into another land.
[41] But they took this counsel among themselves, that they would leave the multitude of the heathen, and go forth into a further country, where never mankind dwelt,
[42] That they might there keep their statutes, which they never kept in their own land.
[43] And they entered into Euphrates by the narrow places of the river.
[44] For the most High then shewed signs for them, and held still the flood, till they were passed over.
[45] For through that country there was a great way to go, namely, of a year and a half: and the same region is called Arsareth.

More info on Arsareth:

http://bibleencyclop...om/arzareth.htm
http://www.jewishenc...er=A&artid=1867

Now why is this important for prophecy? The distinction between the House of Israel and the House of Judah is vital because at end-times both Houses shall be re-united. They are not united now, but are seperate people. Israel are not the Jews! Note what the Bible says:

Jeremiah 3: 18 -

''In those days the house of Judah shall join the house of Israel, and together they shall come from the land of the north to the land that I gave your fathers for a heritage.''

Isaiah 12: 13 -

''In that day the LORD will thresh from the flowing Euphratesc to the Wadi of Egypt, and you, O Israelites, will be gathered up one by one. And in that day a great trumpet will sound. Those who were perishing in Assyria and those who were exiled in Egypt will come and worship the LORD on the holy mountain in Jerusalem.''

Eziekiel 27: 22 -

''And I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. And one king shall be king over them all, and they shall be no longer two nations, and no longer divided into two kingdoms''

The Jews (House of Judah) and the Israelites are two seperate people, two seperate nations. Only at end times will they be re-united.

All this is in the Bible, it is not a 'cult' teaching, nothing is being added or twisted, this is what the Bible says. Jeremiah 33: 24 could not be more clear:

''Considerest thou not what this people have spoken, saying, The two families which the LORD hath chosen, he hath even cast them off? thus they have despised my people, that they should be no more a nation before them.''

Jews and Israelites are two different Houses/nations/families but one day they will be re-united. Right now however they are a seperate people.

Hope that helps.

#9 Cassiterides

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 08:03 AM

Cass I agree that all Jews (from the tribe of Judah) are Israelites however not all Israelites are Jews.


Also though you would have to take into consideration converts who are not blood descendants of Judah, and there are many. Historically speaking many Turkic-Khazars converted to Judaism, and they are not blood descended from Judah. This is detailed by author Arthur Koestler in his book The Thirteenth Tribe. For the most part though, Jews as we know them today are descended from the House of Judah. The scripture however tells us to be cautious of those claiming to be Jews as their are many imposters, Revelation 3: 9 boldy declares: ''Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold...''. There must be no misidentification because the prophecy says that at ends times the House of Judah (the real Jews, not converts to Judaism) will be re-united with the House of Israel.

I've often wondered about that passage and the only nation I can think of that fits the description of becoming a multitude of nations is Great Britain. From Great Britain came forth many nations which include the United States, Australia, Canada, India, South Africa, Jamaica etc.


Note Genesis 12: 2:

''And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing...''

A literal reading of what i have bolded actually means that the name in prophecy would have 'Great' in it - Great Britain.

I've yet to find anything to really confirm this but what I do believe is that the Israelites have to include more than "just" the Jewish people (who are primarily from the tribe of Judah but includes Benjamin and Levites). I don't believe the other 10 tribes are "lost". We've just failed in identifying who they are today.


We just have to uncover our roots. :P

#10 AFJ

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 11:08 AM

Two-House Theology is a major part of prophecy and historical fact.

A brief history recap:

The Kingdom of Israel, the northern ten tribes, were taken into Assyrian captivity starting in the 8th century BC, culminating in 721 BCE with the seizure of Samaria (2 Kings 15:29; 1 Chronicles 5: 26; 2 Kings 17: 3-6). While the Israelites were deported from their land to Assyria and settled in the Medes, the House of Judah nearly entirely remained (2 King 17: 18; 18: 11). The Kingdom of Judah was not captured by the Israelites, only a tiny portion was according to 2 Kings 18: 13 and their fate is not known. A monument at the British Museum of Sennacherib records that 46 small towns of Judah were ransacked and captured by the Assyrians, this is in contrast to the whole of the Kingdom of Israel.

The Israelites are said to have been moved into Assyria and the Medes, so the Kingdom of Israel vanished in the 8th century BC (2 Kings 18: 11). Judah however remained until the Babylonian Captivity.

Unlike the Kingdom of Judah, which was able to return from its Babylonian Captivity after Cyrus granted them permission, the tribes of Israel never had a  permission to return and rebuild their homeland in the 8th century BC. We are told they were removed as noted to Assyria and the Medes, but 2 Esras 13: 40-45 states they moved into a place called Arzareth or Arsareth beyond the Euphrates:

Note verses 40-45:

[40]Those are the ten tribes, which were carried away prisoners out of their own land in the time of Osea the king, whom Salmanasar the king of Assyria led away captive, and he carried them over the waters, and so came they into another land.
[41] But they took this counsel among themselves, that they would leave the multitude of the heathen, and go forth into a further country, where never mankind dwelt,
[42] That they might there keep their statutes, which they never kept in their own land.
[43] And they entered into Euphrates by the narrow places of the river.
[44] For the most High then shewed signs for them, and held still the flood, till they were passed over.
[45] For through that country there was a great way to go, namely, of a year and a half: and the same region is called Arsareth.

More info on Arsareth:

http://bibleencyclop...om/arzareth.htm
http://www.jewishenc...er=A&artid=1867

Now why is this important for prophecy? The distinction between the House of Israel and the House of Judah is vital because at end-times both Houses shall be re-united. They are not united now, but are seperate people. Israel are not the Jews! Note what the Bible says:

Jeremiah 3: 18 -

''In those days the house of Judah shall join the house of Israel, and together they shall come from the land of the north to the land that I gave your fathers for a heritage.''

Isaiah 12: 13 -

''In that day the LORD will thresh from the flowing Euphratesc to the Wadi of Egypt, and you, O Israelites, will be gathered up one by one. And in that day a great trumpet will sound. Those who were perishing in Assyria and those who were exiled in Egypt will come and worship the LORD on the holy mountain in Jerusalem.''

Eziekiel 27: 22 -

''And I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. And one king shall be king over them all, and they shall be no longer two nations, and no longer divided into two kingdoms''

The Jews (House of Judah) and the Israelites are two seperate people, two seperate nations. Only at end times will they be re-united.

All this is in the Bible, it is not a 'cult' teaching, nothing is being added or twisted, this is what the Bible says. Jeremiah 33: 24 could not be more clear:

''Considerest thou not what this people have spoken, saying, The two families which the LORD hath chosen, he hath even cast them off? thus they have despised my people, that they should be no more a nation before them.''

Jews and Israelites are two different Houses/nations/families but one day they will be re-united. Right now however they are a seperate people.

Hope that helps.

View Post


No one who reads the Bible disputes the history of Israel, nor would most evangelicals dispute that God's plan is restore Israel--that's why I pointed to Romans 11. But I was a bit concerned as to where you were coming from--your post says two house theology.

Where do you stand with Arnold Murray? He spiritualizes Israel which leads into other erroneous doctrine.

#11 Cassiterides

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 01:42 PM

No one who reads the Bible disputes the history of Israel, nor would most evangelicals dispute that God's plan is restore Israel--that's why I pointed to Romans 11.


No the history of Israel is disputed in relation to where the 10 tribes migrated. This has been discussed and debated since atleast 70AD, the Babylonian Talmud Mishnah (Sanhedrin 110b) and other Rabbinic sources for example detail debates amongst the Rabbis about the location of the 10 tribes, now better known as the 'lost tribes of Israel'.

Former Chief Rabbi - Dr. H. Adler:
"You are quite right to assume that the Ten Tribes did not return to the Holy Land."

Most Jews believe the descendants of the 10 tribes are not the Jews, but are a seperate people yet to be identified. This is why we have a whole load of ethnic-groups claiming to be the lost tribes, from Kurds, to Chinese, to various Europeans.

Where do you stand with Arnold Murray?  He spiritualizes Israel which leads into other erroneous doctrine.


I don't know who Arnold Murray is, i do however follow a lot of teachings from Herbert W. Armstrong - though certianly not all. I don't agree with mainstream 'replacement theology', i believe many Old Laws of the OT still apply to the Israelites including the food laws. These laws however don't apply to non-Israelites. I guess it depends who you believe Israel are, and if you descend from them. I personally consider myself an Israelite, but i'm not Jewish by faith or race. As i tried to explain Israelites are not Jewish and never have been. My position is that Israelites founded certain Northern European nations.

#12 Seth

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 06:23 PM

I don't know who Arnold Murray is, i do however follow a lot of teachings from Herbert W. Armstrong - though certianly not all. I don't agree with mainstream 'replacement theology', i believe many Old Laws of the OT still apply to the Israelites including the food laws. These laws however don't apply to non-Israelites. I guess it depends who you believe Israel are, and if you descend from them. I personally consider myself an Israelite, but i'm not Jewish by faith or race. As i tried to explain Israelites are not Jewish and never have been. My position is that Israelites founded certain Northern European nations.

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Herbert W. Armstrong? Much of his teachings combined Old Testament and New Testament or rather Old Covenant and New Covenant teachings which brought on a lot of confusion about the Gospel. However there were some things I do agree with him on and believe the scriptures clearly confirm.

#13 AFJ

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Posted 07 August 2010 - 07:28 AM

No the history of Israel is disputed in relation to where the 10 tribes migrated. This has been discussed and debated since atleast 70AD, the Babylonian Talmud Mishnah (Sanhedrin 110b) and other Rabbinic sources for example detail debates amongst the Rabbis about the location of the 10 tribes, now better known as the 'lost tribes of Israel'.

Former Chief Rabbi - Dr. H. Adler:
"You are quite right to assume that the Ten Tribes did not return to the Holy Land."

Most Jews believe the descendants of the 10 tribes are not the Jews, but are a seperate people yet to be identified. This is why we have a whole load of ethnic-groups claiming to be the lost tribes, from Kurds, to Chinese, to various Europeans.
I don't know who Arnold Murray is, i do however follow a lot of teachings from Herbert W. Armstrong - though certianly not all. I don't agree with mainstream 'replacement theology', i believe many Old Laws of the OT still apply to the Israelites including the food laws. These laws however don't apply to non-Israelites. I guess it depends who you believe Israel are, and if you descend from them. I personally consider myself an Israelite, but i'm not Jewish by faith or race. As i tried to explain Israelites are not Jewish and never have been. My position is that Israelites founded certain Northern European nations.

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My degree is in theology, but I never got into "systematic theology" except the basic doctrines that are necessary for discipleship. I look at alot of these things as the quibbling of man. If it's not emphasized in scripture, I don't emphasize it.

The Spirit tends to connect the dots, scripture upon scripture. Notice that Paul never taught anything on the ten tribes.

BRIEF BACKGROUND COMMENT
I want to comment briefly on the history of Samaria. I know you remember in the book of John, Jesus met the Samaritan women at the well. She was amazed that Jesus, a Jew, would even talk to her. It says in the passage that the "Jews have no dealings" with the Samaritans.

This scene took place several hundred years after the captivity. Assyria took the northern kingdom Israel--Samaria being the capital, and Babylon took Judah, Jerusalem being the capital. The remnant of Jews returned under Nehemiah and then Ezra later. These two migrations rebuilt Jerusalem and the temple respectively. If you read Ezra, he addresses an intermarriage problem even then.

So the woman at the well could have well had some of this blood in her. After the return, as people moved away from Jerusalem, they began to intermarry with the people of the land. Many of these people were poor people of the former northern kingdom that were already the offspring of intermarriage.

THE ISRAEL OF JESUS, JUDEA, SAMARIA, AND GALILEE
I said all that to say that in the Israel of Jesus, the people of especially in Samaria and probably in Galilee (the northern province under Rome) were of mixed linage, and that is why geneologies were so important to the Jews.

But people from Galilee and Samaria (proselytes) could become Jewish by religion. That's why many went to the feasts from all over--they were dispersed not only to Galilee, but to other lands. In fact on the day of Pentecost, the people were from all different lands.

5Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. 6When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard them speaking in his own language. 7Utterly amazed, they asked: "Are not all these men who are speaking Galileans? 8Then how is it that each of us hears them in his own native language? 9Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome 11 (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs-we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!" 


So the point is that is not blood as much as it is heart. The ten tribes have intermixed with the worlds blood. God knows who are his people, and has begun to bring them back to the land that was promised to Abraham.

I do not doubt the prophecies you have given us. That there will be one Israel, and I believe that Christ himself shall rule in the HOUSE OF DAVID on earth.

A throne will even be established in lovingkindness, And a judge will sit on it in faithfulness in the tent of David; Moreover, he will seek justice And be prompt in righteousness.  ISAIAH 16:5

On that day I will set up David's fallen tent. I will repair the holes in it. I will restore its ruined places. I will rebuild them as they were a long time ago. AMOS 9:11

But my love will never be taken away from him (David), as I took it away from Saul, whom I removed from before you.  Your house and your kingdom will endure forever before me  ; your throne will be established forever. I SAMUEL 7:15,16



#14 Cassiterides

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Posted 07 August 2010 - 10:25 AM

Notice that Paul never taught anything on the ten tribes.


Have you ever heard or read the Sonnini Manuscript?

Note verse 2: ''For he had heard in Phoenicia that certain of the children of Israel, about the time of the Assyrian captivity, had escaped by sea to "the isles afar off," as spoken by the prophet, and called by the Romans Britain.''

I understand not many Christians accept it as genuine, like the Archko Volume. However it's still a very interesting historical source, even if it is considered as apocrypha.


This scene took place several hundred years after the captivity.  Assyria took the northern kingdom Israel--Samaria being the capital, and Babylon took Judah, Jerusalem being the capital.  The remnant of Jews returned under Nehemiah and then Ezra later. These two migrations rebuilt Jerusalem and the temple respectively.  If you read Ezra, he addresses an intermarriage problem even then.


The Jews returned, not the Israelites. The Jews were freed, and granted permission to return. The 10 tribes however never did and migrated outside of the Middle-east, hence they became known as the 'lost tribes'. If you want me to show you more Biblical and historical evidence i can present it, 2 Esras 13: 40-45 states the Israelites moved to a land called 'Arsareth', this was a year's and a half journey from the Eurphates - so the Israelites moved far, far away from the Middle-east. There is specific prophecy stating where they migrated, you can find most of this on Britam (i don't agree with all their identifications), see below:

http://www.britam.or...stofProofs.html

#15 AFJ

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Posted 07 August 2010 - 08:45 PM

Have you ever heard or read the Sonnini Manuscript?

Note verse 2: ''For he had heard in Phoenicia that certain of the children of Israel, about the time of the Assyrian captivity, had escaped by sea to "the isles afar off," as spoken by the prophet, and called by the Romans Britain.''

I understand not many Christians accept it as genuine, like the Archko Volume. However it's still a very interesting historical source, even if it is considered as apocrypha.
The Jews returned, not the Israelites. The Jews were freed, and granted permission to return. The 10 tribes however never did and migrated outside of the Middle-east, hence they became known as the 'lost tribes'. If you want me to show you more Biblical and historical evidence i can present it, 2 Esras 13: 40-45 states the Israelites moved to a land called 'Arsareth', this was a year's and a half journey from the Eurphates - so the Israelites moved far, far away from the Middle-east. There is specific prophecy stating where they migrated, you can find most of this on Britam (i don't agree with all their identifications), see below:

http://www.britam.or...stofProofs.html

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So I'm trying to understand the point of this. Are you trying to say the US and Britain are part of the lost ten tribes?

I went over some of the scriptures in the video, which are argued to be evidence of the above proposal. Here is just one example of how we can overemphasize things and get off into error--any of us.

The man on the video used Isaiah 49:6.

And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

One fulfillment--or spiritual connection. Luke 2:32

Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said, Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word: For mine eyes have seen thy salvation, Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people; A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.

Three points. First, this is using a connecting prophetic utterance--Isaiah to Simeon but the same Spirit speaking through them. Second, the "light" is Jesus, not Israel, and he will be a light to the Gentiles. Third, the Jews are not mentioned, so if we use your reasoning, only Israelites and gentiles can be saved, not Jews. I don't think that is the case, because Paul was a Benjamite and a JEW. Israel in this context speaks of Israel as whole--those who were both Israelites by blood and by faith! When it says Israel, it refers to the descendants of Israel--Jacob.

Second Fulfillment--another spiritual connection. Acts 13:44-48

On the next Sabbath almost the whole city gathered to hear the word of the Lord. 45When the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy and talked abusively against what Paul was saying. 46Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: "We had to speak the word of God to you first. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles. 47For this is what the Lord has commanded us:

" 'I have made you[g] a light for the Gentiles,
that you[h] may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.'[i]"


48When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.


As the writer of most of the New Testament and apostle to the gentiles (Romans 11:10) I think Paul would qualify as a light to the gentiles. This is yet another fulfillment to the prophecy in Is. 49:6

So far, we can find no teaching that the lost ten tribes of Israel are going to be a light to the gentiles.

#16 Cassiterides

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Posted 08 August 2010 - 07:42 AM

So I'm trying to understand the point of this.  Are you trying to say the US and Britain are part of the lost ten tribes?


Not America, but Britain, Iceland and a few other Nordic countries. That's just my personal beliefs, others make different identifications. America from my understanding is not in prophecy in relation to Israel.

I did start a Table of Nations thread, to start discussing who is who.

I went over some of the scriptures in the video, which are argued to be evidence of the above proposal.


I never watched the video, i just linked to the Bible identifications especially the ''Isles''.

Biblical references appear to indicate that the Lost Tribes, are in the "Isles":

(Isaiah 24;15)
"The name of the Lord God of Israel in the ISLES of the sea" .

(Isaiah 42;4)
"The ISLES shall wait for his law".

(Isaiah 51;4 5)
"Hearken unto me, MY PEOPLE...O my nation...mine arms shall judge the people, the ISLES shall wait upon me".

(Isaiah 60;9)
"Surely the ISLES shall wait for me, and the ships of Tarshish first, to bring thy sons from far" .

God's Word speaks of the areas from where He will gather Israel in the last days:

God says He will gather Israel from "the isles afar off." (Jeremiah 31: 10)

Jeremiah 23:8: God prophesies that the time will come when people will look back and remember how He "led the descendants of the house of Israel from the north country."

So the Islands are said to be in the 'far north'. This can only be Britain and the northern Islands of the North Sea i.e Iceland.

#17 AFJ

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Posted 08 August 2010 - 09:46 AM

Not America, but Britain, Iceland and a few other Nordic countries. That's just my personal beliefs, others make different identifications. America from my understanding is not in prophecy in relation to Israel.

I did start a Table of Nations thread, to start discussing who is who.
I never watched the video, i just linked to the Bible identifications especially the ''Isles''.

Biblical references appear to indicate that the Lost Tribes, are in the "Isles":

(Isaiah 24;15)
"The name of the Lord God of Israel in the ISLES of the sea" .

(Isaiah 42;4)
"The ISLES shall wait for his law".

(Isaiah 51;4 5)
"Hearken unto me, MY PEOPLE...O my nation...mine arms shall judge the people, the ISLES shall wait upon me".

(Isaiah 60;9)
"Surely the ISLES shall wait for me, and the ships of Tarshish first, to bring thy sons from far" .

God's Word speaks of the areas from where He will gather Israel in the last days:

God says He will gather Israel from "the isles afar off." (Jeremiah 31: 10)

Jeremiah 23:8: God prophesies that the time will come when people will look back and remember how He "led the descendants of the house of Israel from the north country."

So the Islands are said to be in the 'far north'. This can only be Britain and the northern Islands of the North Sea i.e Iceland.

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I have not done a study on this. If Britain has Jacob's blood that's good. But where does that take you. Are you planning on migrating to Israel?

I personally believe we can't neglect the fact that we are still in "the times of the Gentiles." That is--God is inviting the entire world to accept His Son. Therefore we are the church, both Jews and Gentiles. And Israelites, if you want to make that distinction.

One question--doesn't Herbert W. Armstrong emphasize the keeping of the law by the "help of the Holy Spirit?" If so, he is rejecting Pauline teaching of the cross of Christ.




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