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The New Guy


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#1 Guest_michaelf_*

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Posted 14 July 2010 - 10:31 AM

I always hate these intro threads.. what to say?

OK.. how about this.. what do you want to know?

#2 Adam Nagy

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Posted 14 July 2010 - 07:39 PM

I always hate these intro threads.. what to say?

OK.. how about this.. what do you want to know?

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How does somebody go about being a Christian agnostic?

Welcome to EFT. ;)

#3 Guest_kingreaper_*

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Posted 14 July 2010 - 08:06 PM

How does somebody go about being a Christian agnostic

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Someone who believes in Christ, but doesn't claim to know that God exists, is a Christian agnostic.

Depending on the exact position it would be an example of faith (being a Christian without evidence) and/or humility (being willing to accept that one lacks knowledge)

#4 Guest_Tommy_*

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Posted 14 July 2010 - 09:01 PM

Someone who believes in Christ, but doesn't claim to know that God exists, is a Christian agnostic.

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Aye, but Christ supposedly is God (or the same substance). If you believe the Jesus of the gospels was Christ then you also must believe in a God. Otherwise, anyone who believes there was an historical figure upon which a least part of the gospel account is based is then a Christian. Thought: is this enough to get me into heaven?

#5 Geode

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Posted 14 July 2010 - 10:31 PM

Aye, but Christ supposedly is God (or the same substance).  If you believe the Jesus of the gospels was Christ then you also must believe in a God.  Otherwise, anyone who believes there was an historical figure upon which a least part of the gospel account is based is then a Christian.  Thought: is this enough to get me into heaven?

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I have known some people who had become unclear about there being a God who still called themselves Christians as they still accepted the moral teachings of Christ as being worthy of attention.

#6 Ron

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Posted 15 July 2010 - 04:09 AM

Someone who believes in Christ, but doesn't claim to know that God exists, is a Christian agnostic.

Depending on the exact position it would be an example of faith (being a Christian without evidence) and/or humility (being willing to accept that one lacks knowledge)

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Sorry, that's a misnomer (or oxymoron). Jesus Himself said that you are none of His if you don't believe the words he said. He went on to say He was the Son of God, and that He is God. Therefore, according to Jesus, you cannot believe in Him, and not believe in God.

#7 Ron

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Posted 15 July 2010 - 04:11 AM

Aye, but Christ supposedly is God (or the same substance).  If you believe the Jesus of the gospels was Christ then you also must believe in a God. 

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Abolutely!


Otherwise, anyone who believes there was an historical figure upon which a least part of the gospel account is based is then a Christian. 

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Correct! And, according to Jesus, they are not.


Thought: is this enough to get me into heaven?

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According to the words of Jesus? No.

#8 Ron

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Posted 15 July 2010 - 04:13 AM

I have known some people who had become unclear about there being a God who still called themselves Christians as they still accepted the moral teachings of Christ as being worthy of attention.

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According to "The Word of God" they are not Christians. Just cherry pickers of His words.

#9 Ron

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Posted 15 July 2010 - 04:14 AM


I always hate these intro threads.. what to say?

OK.. how about this.. what do you want to know?

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How does somebody go about being a Christian agnostic?

Welcome to EFT. ;)

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My question would be the same as Adam’s

But, I extend you a hearty welcome!

#10 Guest_michaelf_*

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Posted 15 July 2010 - 04:48 AM

LOL... I am a Christian, but agnostic about YEC/OEC/Theistic evolution. I trend away from the last one, mainly because A&E are described distinctly from how the rest of creation was made.\

(Agnostic literally means I don't know.)

Thanks for the welcome!

#11 Geode

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Posted 15 July 2010 - 06:17 AM

According to "The Word of God" they are not Christians. Just cherry pickers of His words.

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Actually my post did not make any claim whether or not these people that I have known are Christians or not.

But on their behalf I will add that you are giving one one definition that relies upon an interpretation of "The Word of God" not held by all, and I think this is really is entering into the realm of the "No True Scotsman" logical fallacy.

#12 Guest_kingreaper_*

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Posted 15 July 2010 - 06:29 AM

Sorry, that's a misnomer (or oxymoron). Jesus Himself said that you are none of His if you don't believe the words he said. He went on to say He was the Son of God, and that He is God. Therefore, according to Jesus, you cannot believe in Him, and not believe in God.

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A christian agnostic can BELIEVE in God. They just don't claim to KNOW God exists.

#13 PhilC

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Posted 15 July 2010 - 07:07 AM

Ron, I don't mean to hijack the thread, but I would like to know the references to this:

He went on to say He was the Son of God, and that He is God.


I'm not going to debate the point, I'm too ignorant of the subject, it's just for information only.

#14 Ron

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Posted 15 July 2010 - 09:48 AM

Actually my post did not make any claim whether or not these people that I have known are Christians or not.

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My reply was to a specific question(er) or post(er), I understand that it wasn’t your post.

This doesn't mean that you cannot respond to it, it basically means that my resonse was not directed at you.

But on their behalf I will add that you are giving one one definition that relies upon an interpretation of "The Word of God" not held by all, and I think this is really is entering into the realm of the "No True Scotsman" logical fallacy.

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Understand, it doesn’t matter what one’s “interpretation” is, when you are getting the “interpretation” from the mouth of “The Interpreter”, as my post pointed out. In other words, "No True Scotsman" fallacy in not invoked here, because the “Word” Himself gave the definition of what a “follower of His” is. Therefore trotting out the “no true Scotsman” argument is, in fact an “Argumentum ad Ignoratio Elenchi”. A cursory reading of Biblical New Testament scriptures would reveal this mistake.

#15 Ron

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Posted 15 July 2010 - 10:03 AM

A christian agnostic can BELIEVE in God. They just don't claim to KNOW God exists.

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That is incorrect according to the “words” of Jesus. Who, Himself, is the one you are attempting to disagree with here.

A “Christian agnostic” is:

1- An oxymoron
2- Conversion by Definition
3- A self-defeating statement
4- An affront to the Law of Non-contradiction
5- Argumentum Non sequitur
6- A Rhetorical tautology

In other words, it is so wrong, on so many levels, that it is indefensible.


Now, if you wish to equivocate on the subject, I’ll just give your warning up front. If you want to rationally discuss it, be prepared to have something other than mere opinion to back up your assertion.

#16 Guest_kingreaper_*

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Posted 15 July 2010 - 10:42 AM

That is incorrect according to the “words” of Jesus. Who, Himself, is the one you are attempting to disagree with here.

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Where does Jesus claim that one must KNOW that God exists? I know he states that you must accept God, and have faith, but I don't know of a passage that states you must KNOW God exists.

If you do know of such a passage, I would appreciate seeing it.

Now, if you wish to equivocate on the subject, I’ll just give your warning up front. If you want to rationally discuss it, be prepared to have something other than mere opinion to back up your assertion.

You have asserted that it is impossible to be both a christian (a follower of christ) and an agnostic (one who does not claim knowledge on the issue of the existence of God)

I would like to see your biblical support for this position.

My support for my position? The common christian belief that Faith (belief without knowledge) is a virtue.

To have Faith, one must not know. If one doesn't know, then one is an agnostic.

#17 Cassiterides

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Posted 15 July 2010 - 11:37 AM

In other words, it is so wrong, on so many levels, that it is indefensible.


Could not agree with you more, but wait until you discover Christian Atheism. :)

http://www.christianatheism.com/
http://en.wikipedia....ristian_atheism

#18 Ron

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Posted 15 July 2010 - 03:18 PM

Where does Jesus claim that one must KNOW that God exists? I know he states that you must accept God, and have faith, but I don't know of a passage that states you must KNOW God exists.

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You do realize the self defeating and illogical statement you just made don’t you? How can you possibly say you accept God exists without then admitting you know He exists? Unless you are attempting to mistakenly introduce “blind faith” into the equation.

Jesus never requested “blind faith”. In fact He provided, over and over again, evidences for the eye witnesses. And when “Doubting Thomas” had reservations, Jesus provided empirical evidence of who He is. These evidences were the facts that provided knowledge of God.

Anyway, you can start with John 14. The chapter makes it pretty clear that Jesus is requiring knowledge from them about both Him and God. He is telling them to think upon the evidences they were “eyewitnesses” of.

If you do know of such a passage, I would appreciate seeing it.
You have asserted that it is impossible to be both a christian (a follower of christ) and an agnostic (one who does not claim knowledge on the issue of the existence of God)

I would like to see your biblical support for this position.

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There are many passages to draw from. I submitted but one of them above.

My support for my position? The common christian belief that Faith (belief without knowledge) is a virtue.

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Again, since you demand evidence for the Christ’s position (one of which I provided above), I ask you to provide Biblical scriptural support for your assertion above. Can you show me where Jesus required “blind faith” from His followers?

To have Faith, one must not know. If one doesn't know, then one is an agnostic.

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Once again, you are incorrect in your assumption above. Tell me, in the passage I provided, does Jesus require knowledge for faith in His followers, or is He requiring “blind faith” from them?

#19 Guest_kingreaper_*

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Posted 16 July 2010 - 05:09 AM

Anyway, you can start with John 14. The chapter makes it pretty clear that Jesus is requiring knowledge from them about both Him and God. He is telling them to think upon the evidences they were “eyewitnesses” of.

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That bit is not that telling. They were eyewitnesses, but I doubt you consider only eyewitnesses to be Christians

However, I did notice this quote in the chapter you sent me to:

21Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."


It is reasonable to consider only those who love Jesus to be Christians. I will accept that.
And according to this quote, anyone who loves Jesus will have Jesus show himself to them. Which will grant them knowledge of God. Thus, after Jesus has shown himself, it is impossible for them to be agnostic.

Point conceded: if the bible is accurate it is impossible for someone to be both Christian and agnostic
<The use of large emboldened fonts is against the forum rules>


For the sake of completeness, the passage that is generally used in favour of faith:
John 20:29
Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

#20 Ron

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Posted 16 July 2010 - 05:25 AM

That bit is not that telling. They were eyewitnesses, but I doubt you consider only eyewitnesses to be Christians.

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Actually, it is very telling when kept in context with the chapter, the New Testament, and our conversation. And Christians ARE eye witnesses of many evidences, and ear witnesses of the "Word".


However, I did notice this quote in the chapter you sent me to:
It is reasonable to consider only those who love Jesus to be Christians. I will accept that.
And according to this quote, anyone who loves Jesus will have Jesus show himself to them. Which will grant them knowledge of God. Thus, after Jesus has shown himself, it is impossible for them to be agnostic.

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Quite true.



Point conceded: if the bible is accurate it is impossible for someone to be both Christian and agnostic

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YOU didn’t have to shout ;) :)


For the sake of completeness, the passage that is generally used in favour of faith:
John 20:29
Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

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Those who have yet to see, still have to hear the testimony of the eye witnesses before they believe, and they have to come to that belief through vicarious and personal knowledge. And they are not Christians until they obey and follow. And this doesn’t happen until they “Know”. Remember “Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God”. Therefore that knowledge comes by that hearing!




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