Jump to content


Photo

For Atheists


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
104 replies to this topic

#1 AFJ

AFJ

    AFJ

  • Veteran Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1625 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Baton Rouge, LA
  • Interests:Bible, molecular biology, chemistry, mineralogy, geology, eschatology, history, family
  • Age: 51
  • Christian
  • Young Earth Creationist
  • Baton Rouge, LA

Posted 16 August 2010 - 07:56 PM

Just wanted to know, what is the main reason you don't believe in God. And I have heard there are different classifications of atheists. I am not familiar with this.

Is the main reason because:

1. No one can see God.

2. He can not be defined physically.

3. You had a bad experience with religious people, and see no demonstration of God in people's lives.

4. You don't want to, because faith is too inhibiting.

5. It would hinder your passions.

6. You think maybe, but you hope there isn't, so you can do your thing.

7. You just think it's stupid that a being would create us.

8. Evolution and geology.

9. You see all the evil in the world and can't believe a god would allow this.

10. Other

#2 Guest_Tommy_*

Guest_Tommy_*
  • Guests

Posted 16 August 2010 - 09:06 PM

A thought-provoking argument I encountered the other day:

1) A conceivable true God should know that it was the true God.
2) None of us know for sure how much control we have over ourselves - might we be the puppets of some greater power?
3) Following on, it would be impossible for any entity to know for certain that it was in control of itself. Even a creator deity may have been unwittingly controlled by some greater deity for all eternity.
4) Therefore a true God cannot exist.

#3 rico

rico

    Member

  • Veteran Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 612 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:Jesus, computers, physics, video games, philosophy, epistomology
  • Age: 34
  • Christian
  • Young Earth Creationist
  • USA

Posted 17 August 2010 - 02:08 PM

A thought-provoking argument I encountered the other day:

1)  A conceivable true God should know that it was the true God.
2) None of us know for sure how much control we have over ourselves - might we be the puppets of some greater power?
3)  Following on, it would be impossible for any entity to know for certain that it was in control of itself.  Even a creator deity may have been unwittingly controlled by some greater deity for all eternity.
4) Therefore a true God cannot exist.

View Post

Number 3 is an absolute statement. You went from statement 2 with finite knowledge, to statement 3... For 1 your also assuming that God cannot know himself because we can't?
Perhaps you could explain your reasoning more? This reasoning also depends on your definition of God. So how can we know God?

From the bible we belieive 1 John 3:20 KJV: “...God is greater than our heart, and knows all things.” (paraphrased)
So for 1, we (bible believers) can change that 1st statement to knows everything. (statement 1 then untrue)
God has the following characteristics: Omniscience, Omnipotence, Omnipresence, transcendence.

The bible tells about him (Jesus). Do you know from history who Jesus was? There is the testimony of Josephus, a historian, and others...

References:
Logical Fallacies: http://www.logicalfallacies.info/
What does it mean that God is infinite: http://www.gotquesti...finite-God.html
Bible Gateway; 1st John 3:20: http://www.biblegate...n 3&version=NIV

#4 bobabelever

bobabelever

    Member

  • Veteran Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 392 posts
  • Age: 43
  • Christian
  • Young Earth Creationist
  • Arizona

Posted 17 August 2010 - 02:18 PM

A thought-provoking argument I encountered the other day:

1)  A conceivable true God should know that it was the true God.
2) None of us know for sure how much control we have over ourselves - might we be the puppets of some greater power?
3)  Following on, it would be impossible for any entity to know for certain that it was in control of itself.  Even a creator deity may have been unwittingly controlled by some greater deity for all eternity.
4) Therefore a true God cannot exist.

View Post

This is not thought provoking at all! <_<

The true God stops at #1; He does know He is the true God.
Therefore #s 2-4 do not apply to the true God.

#5 AFJ

AFJ

    AFJ

  • Veteran Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1625 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Baton Rouge, LA
  • Interests:Bible, molecular biology, chemistry, mineralogy, geology, eschatology, history, family
  • Age: 51
  • Christian
  • Young Earth Creationist
  • Baton Rouge, LA

Posted 17 August 2010 - 03:02 PM

A thought-provoking argument I encountered the other day:

1)  A conceivable true God should know that it was the true God.
2) None of us know for sure how much control we have over ourselves - might we be the puppets of some greater power?
3)  Following on, it would be impossible for any entity to know for certain that it was in control of itself.  Even a creator deity may have been unwittingly controlled by some greater deity for all eternity.
4) Therefore a true God cannot exist.

View Post


Tommy, is there somewhere you got the information for number 1? How would you know whether or God knew something, unless it was told you by someone who had been in touch with him or He himself told you?

#6 Guest_Tommy_*

Guest_Tommy_*
  • Guests

Posted 17 August 2010 - 09:52 PM

Number 3 is an absolute statement.  You went from statement 2 with finite knowledge, to statement 3... For 1 your also assuming that God cannot know himself because we can't?


Geoffrey Berg, who I believe concocted the argument, would probably have summarized it far more tightly than me. I don't think a God who wasn't quite sure he was God would meet our criteria for being a God. We have to believe that the concept of a God is open to human reasoning or why bother speculating at all? I think the point is that with greater knowledge comes greater skepticism and thus a reduced "Godness".

The bible tells about him (Jesus).  Do you know from history who Jesus was?  There is the testimony of Josephus, a historian, and others... 

View Post


Josephus wasn't born until after the Jesus of the Gospels had died. The only testimonies of the life of Jesus are the Gospels and these have their drawbacks: Luke (friend of Paul) and Mark (friend of Peter) never met Jesus. Acts tells us that John probably couldn't read/write. This leaves us with Matthew whose testimony incorporates large portions of Mark's.

#7 rico

rico

    Member

  • Veteran Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 612 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:Jesus, computers, physics, video games, philosophy, epistomology
  • Age: 34
  • Christian
  • Young Earth Creationist
  • USA

Posted 18 August 2010 - 09:19 AM

Geoffrey Berg, who I believe concocted the argument, would probably have summarized it far more tightly than me.  I don't think a God who wasn't quite sure he was God would meet our criteria for being a God.  We have to believe that the concept of a God is open to human reasoning or why bother speculating at all?  I think the point is that with greater knowledge comes greater skepticism and thus a reduced "Godness".


Is the John the same one who had his head cut off, because you can't write with your head cut off, unless by a supernatural power... :rolleyes: so maybe some else wrote it.

The other statement you said about God reminded me of a statement someone else said, ...if God was an alien... We have the bible testifying to who God is, and we know that from experience laws come from a law giver... a building is evidence for a builder... a creation a creator... Creation bears witness to a creator (also see Romans 1:20). When you write a blog or web post in a forum that is evidence for you, and that you exist.

It would probably help this post/our understanding to directly answer the OPs question if you would?... Thanks.

Peace.

#8 Cassiterides

Cassiterides

    Banned

  • Banned
  • PipPipPip
  • 631 posts
  • Age: 20
  • Christian
  • Young Earth Creationist
  • uk

Posted 18 August 2010 - 09:29 AM

Josephus wasn't born until after the Jesus of the Gospels had died.  The only testimonies of the life of Jesus are the Gospels and these have their drawbacks: Luke (friend of Paul) and Mark (friend of Peter) never met Jesus.  Acts tells us that John probably couldn't read/write.  This leaves us with Matthew whose testimony incorporates large portions of Mark's.


If you employ this sort of logic, then most famous people from ancient history never existed.

For example Boudicca died in 60AD, but the earliest literary mention of her comes from Tacitus in 98AD. A gap of 38 years.

Atheists though don't apply their flawed logic to Boudicca or any other historical figure. Odd that.

#9 Guest_Tommy_*

Guest_Tommy_*
  • Guests

Posted 18 August 2010 - 03:03 PM

Is the John the same one who had his head cut off, because you can't write with your head cut off, unless by a supernatural power... :rolleyes: so maybe some else wrote it.

View Post


That was John the Baptist. John the Evangelist supposedly died on Patmos.

#10 Guest_Tommy_*

Guest_Tommy_*
  • Guests

Posted 18 August 2010 - 03:05 PM

If you employ this sort of logic, then most famous people from ancient history never existed.

For example Boudicca died in 60AD, but the earliest literary mention of her comes from Tacitus in 98AD. A gap of 38 years.

Atheists though don't apply their flawed logic to Boudicca or any other historical figure. Odd that.

View Post


I don't doubt that someone corresponding to the figure of Jesus existed.

#11 Ron

Ron

    Advanced Member

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 6530 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Age: 50
  • Christian
  • Creationist
  • Johnstown, PA

Posted 19 August 2010 - 04:31 AM

Josephus wasn't born until after the Jesus of the Gospels had died. 

View Post

Josephus was a well renowned historian from the period. And he did what historians do; he investigated via interviews and official documentation of the time. It doesn’t matter if he was a direct contemporary of Jesus or not, what does matter is that he can account and therefore verify that Jesus was a real person. And, by the way, he also verified the life of John the Baptist, and the borther of Jesus as well.

The only testimonies of the life of Jesus are the Gospels and these have their drawbacks: Luke (friend of Paul) and Mark (friend of Peter) never met Jesus.

View Post

These are not drawbacks, nor are they altogether accurate:

Luke, like Josephus, was an educated man (a physician by trade) and a renowned historian in his own right. He did the investigations, and interviewed the very people who knew Jesus the best (the Apostles etcetera…).

John-Mark recounted the testimony of Peter (a first hand eye-witness of Jesus) in the gospel he wrote. He didn’t have to meet Jesus to do this, but to say he didn’t meet Jesus is a presupposition on your part. John-Mark was also the Nephew of Barnabas and traveling companion of Paul, Peter and Barnabas. He was a first hand eye-witness of the ministries and miracles of these men.

Acts tells us that John probably couldn't read/write.  This leaves us with Matthew whose testimony incorporates large portions of Mark's.

View Post


I would be interested in the particular scripture in Acts that says John couldn’t read or write. And, the incorporation inference of yours is presupposed as well. Although, there is no problem with the supposed “incorporated” information, as both of these testimonies are from first hand eye witnesses. As is the testimony of John.

I would also suggest you read up on the letters of James and Jude (both siblings and witnesses of Jesus). As their writings are parts of the New Testament as well.

Also, you’ll find a wealth of information here:
http://www.evolution...topic=1957&st=0

#12 Ron

Ron

    Advanced Member

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 6530 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Age: 50
  • Christian
  • Creationist
  • Johnstown, PA

Posted 19 August 2010 - 04:55 AM

Atheists though don't apply their flawed logic to Boudicca or any other historical figure. Odd that.

View Post


Historical revisionists don’t like to face the mirror into their own practices Cass. But, what’s sauce for the Goose is sauce for the Gander.

#13 Ron

Ron

    Advanced Member

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 6530 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Age: 50
  • Christian
  • Creationist
  • Johnstown, PA

Posted 19 August 2010 - 04:57 AM

I don't doubt that someone corresponding to the figure of Jesus existed.

View Post


There is absolutely no historical doubt that Jesus existed.

#14 jason78

jason78

    Veteran Member

  • Banned
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1349 posts
  • Age: 30
  • no affiliation
  • Atheist
  • Birmingham, UK

Posted 20 August 2010 - 02:25 AM

Just wanted to know, what is the main reason you don't believe in God.  And I have heard there are different classifications of atheists.  I am not familiar with this.

Is the main reason because:

1.  No one can see God.

2.  He can not be defined physically.

3.  You had a bad experience with religious people, and see no demonstration of God in people's lives.

4. You don't want to, because faith is too inhibiting.

5.  It would hinder your passions.

6.  You think maybe, but you hope there isn't, so you  can do your thing.

7.  You just think it's stupid that a being would create us.

8.  Evolution and geology.

9.  You see all the evil in the world and can't believe a god would allow this.

10.  Other

View Post


I'd go with "10. Other", I just can't believe in something like a god. Not just your God, any god. It is simply unbelievable. I don't find your god or any one elses plausible.

#15 philosophik

philosophik

    Member

  • Veteran Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 106 posts
  • Age: 30
  • no affiliation
  • Atheist
  • ca

Posted 20 August 2010 - 04:05 AM

Just wanted to know, what is the main reason you don't believe in God.  And I have heard there are different classifications of atheists.  I am not familiar with this.

Is the main reason because:

1.  No one can see God.

2.  He can not be defined physically.

3.  You had a bad experience with religious people, and see no demonstration of God in people's lives.

4. You don't want to, because faith is too inhibiting.

5.  It would hinder your passions.

6.  You think maybe, but you hope there isn't, so you  can do your thing.

7.  You just think it's stupid that a being would create us.

8.  Evolution and geology.

9.  You see all the evil in the world and can't believe a god would allow this.

10.  Other

View Post


I don't see the point of worshiping a being that is the product of the human psyche. A personal savior god is an idea that man has created to overcome his fear of death-- to avoid the non-being of his ego. A way to escape the reality of today into the expectation of an imaginary everlasting future. That is why I don't believe in the idea of a personal creator god who promises eternal life, because in actuality, doing so is a defense mechanism people use to fool our temporary egos into believing that they can really exist forever in some paradise. I guess I don't believe in your god because I see myself for what I truly am--a finite being whose true nature transcends his ego and all it's ideas. I don't need to live in heaven for all eternity because I am living today, and one can't really expect much more than that.

#16 scott

scott

    Veteran Member

  • Veteran Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1749 posts
  • Age: 21
  • Christian
  • Young Earth Creationist
  • mississippi

Posted 20 August 2010 - 11:48 AM

I don't see the point of worshiping a being that is the product of the human psyche. A personal savior god is an idea that man has created to overcome his fear of death-- to avoid the non-being of his ego. A way to escape the reality of today into the expectation of an imaginary everlasting future. That is why I don't believe in the idea of a personal creator god who promises eternal life, because in actuality, doing so is a defense mechanism people use to fool our temporary egos into believing that they can really exist forever in some paradise. I guess I don't believe in your god because I see myself for what I truly am--a finite being whose true nature transcends his ego and all it's ideas. I don't need to live in heaven for all eternity because I am living today, and one can't really expect much more than that.

View Post


Well actually your whole post is a faith statement. Why?

1. You do not know that there is or isn't an afterlife... you just follow what Liberal/
Atheist Naturalist Ideology tells you.

2. Jesus was a real person.

So, since Jesus was a real person, then it would be better to know Jesus than to die not knowing the one who could save your soul, and give you eternal life.

This is significant given the fact that you have absolutely no clue that there isn't an afterlife. Also, the first clue to you is the Human Psyche.

The Human Mind... that's exactly what should tell you that you do have a soul, and that God exists.

Why? Because that voice inside of you, that you type, and read with... that is your soul.

#17 Flying Monkey

Flying Monkey

    Junior Member

  • Advanced member
  • PipPip
  • 68 posts
  • Age: 33
  • no affiliation
  • Atheist
  • Portland, OR

Posted 21 August 2010 - 06:34 AM

There are a lot of reasons not to believe, and different atheists will give you different reasons. Often it is a combination of factors. One of the more interesting atheist related things on the web are "de-conversion" stories. If you have a genuine interest in how atheists get where they are I suggest checking some out. One of the most entertaining is Julia Sweeney's Letting Go of God. I recommend it.

Personally I think the primary reason that I am an atheist is simply the lack of any evidence suggesting the existence of the supernatural. The only reasons I tend to see that people actually believe is generally their desire for an afterlife, for ultimate justice and for an easy to grasp explanation for the things that we can't explain. I feel I have come to accept those things as they are, and recognize that most supernatural beliefs are just a way humans try to gain control and make sense of a chaotic and indifferent world.

#18 ikester7579

ikester7579

    Member

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 12500 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Florida
  • Interests:God, creation, etc...
  • Age: 48
  • Christian
  • Young Earth Creationist
  • I'm non-denominational

Posted 21 August 2010 - 06:49 AM

There are a lot of reasons not to believe, and different atheists will give you different reasons. Often it is a combination of factors. One of the more interesting atheist related things on the web are "de-conversion" stories. If you have a genuine interest in how atheists get where they are I suggest checking some out. One of the most entertaining is Julia Sweeney's Letting Go of God. I recommend it.

Personally I think the primary reason that I am an atheist is simply the lack of any evidence suggesting the existence of the supernatural. The only reasons I tend to see that people actually believe is generally their desire for an afterlife, for ultimate justice and for an easy to grasp explanation for the things that we can't explain. I feel I have come to accept those things as they are, and recognize that most supernatural beliefs are just a way humans try to gain control and make sense of a chaotic and indifferent world.

View Post


Yet you cannot show us a natural illustration of life coming from the soup of abiogenesis, yet you still "believe" that it just happens regardless?

I see nothing here to make me question God when you cannot even prove to me life comes from non-life in a empirical illustration. But if you can, we would all be watching.

#19 Flying Monkey

Flying Monkey

    Junior Member

  • Advanced member
  • PipPip
  • 68 posts
  • Age: 33
  • no affiliation
  • Atheist
  • Portland, OR

Posted 21 August 2010 - 07:01 AM

Yet you cannot show us a natural illustration of life coming from the soup of abiogenesis, yet you still "believe" that it just happens regardless?

No, I can't. We don't know the details of how life originated on Earth. We know some things, but we certainly have some bits wrong and some bits we may never know. I don't think that is a good reason to presume that some supernatural being is responsible. Not knowing something is not evidence that a supernatural explanation is correct. The history of science has a lot of examples of new science pushing back the role of the supernatural to explain the universe.

I see nothing here to make me question God when you cannot even prove to me life comes from non-life in a empirical illustration. But if you can, we would all be watching.

View Post

I'm not trying to make you question god. I was just trying to answer the question. Though I was under the impression that we both believed that life came from non-life at some point. In fact, if you are a creationist I think you must believe that life came from non-life more than once. Correct?

#20 ikester7579

ikester7579

    Member

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 12500 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Florida
  • Interests:God, creation, etc...
  • Age: 48
  • Christian
  • Young Earth Creationist
  • I'm non-denominational

Posted 21 August 2010 - 07:05 AM

No, I can't. We don't know the details of how life originated on Earth. We know some things, but we certainly have some bits wrong and some bits we may never know. I don't think that is a good reason to presume that some supernatural being is responsible. Not knowing something is not evidence that a supernatural explanation is correct. The history of science has a lot of examples of new science pushing back the role of the supernatural to explain the universe.


Then to believe and reject everything else on non-empirical claims, means that you do believe by faith only. Because faith is the belief in things you cannot see (observe).

I'm not trying to make you question god. I was just trying to answer the question. Though I was under the impression that we both believed that life came from non-life at some point. In fact, if you are a creationist I think you must believe that life came from non-life more than once. Correct?

View Post


It funny, but if you ponder it. Abiogenesis is science's version of the virgin birth.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users