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#1 nortonthe2nd

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Posted 22 August 2010 - 11:53 PM

Hello all, I'm nortonthe2nd. As you've no doubt observed, I am in fact one of those EVILutionists, but I promise to keep my horns and pointy tail hidden. Anyway, I'd like to see what some actual Creationists and ID-ers have to say about some problems I have with your guy's theory. Before I get started, I'd like to say that my main purpose here is learning. In my opinion, the only way to keep a truly open mind is to test your beliefs against opposing ones, so that's what I hope to do. I dont expect to change any minds here, and I'm somewhat doubtful that anyone will change mine, but we wont know until we try, will we? Anyway, see you over in the argument section ;)

#2 Ron

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Posted 23 August 2010 - 03:55 AM

Hello all, I'm nortonthe2nd. As you've no doubt observed, I am in fact one of those EVILutionists, but I promise to keep my horns and pointy tail hidden. Anyway, I'd like to see what some actual Creationists and ID-ers have to say about some problems I have with your guy's theory. Before I get started, I'd like to say that my main purpose here is learning. In my opinion, the only way to keep a truly open mind is to test your beliefs against opposing ones, so that's what I hope to do. I dont expect to change any minds here, and I'm somewhat doubtful that anyone will change mine, but we wont know until we try, will we? Anyway, see you over in the argument section ;)

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Hello Norton… And welcome to the forum. I do hope you learn here, no matter the out come. Aand as long as you read and adhere to the forum rules, I doubt you even have to worry about your horns and tail. ;)

One point though; How can one keep an “open mind” and not have at least a modicum of mind changing experiences? To deny such, means you either are not keeping an open mind, or indeed already know everything there is to know, and therefore are already right about everything, and need not change the perfect mind.

Just curious…

#3 Flying Monkey

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Posted 23 August 2010 - 09:10 AM

Hi nortonthe2nd! Welcome from another Oregon atheist! ;)

#4 Ron

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Posted 23 August 2010 - 09:19 AM

Yeah, I forgot about that! FM's from Portland, what part of Oregon are you from Norton? I'm originally from Redding, CA. And have spent quite a bit of time around Crater Lake, Ashland, Bend and Medford in my youth.

#5 ikester7579

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Posted 23 August 2010 - 11:11 AM

Hello all, I'm nortonthe2nd. As you've no doubt observed, I am in fact one of those EVILutionists, but I promise to keep my horns and pointy tail hidden. Anyway, I'd like to see what some actual Creationists and ID-ers have to say about some problems I have with your guy's theory. Before I get started, I'd like to say that my main purpose here is learning. In my opinion, the only way to keep a truly open mind is to test your beliefs against opposing ones, so that's what I hope to do. I dont expect to change any minds here, and I'm somewhat doubtful that anyone will change mine, but we wont know until we try, will we? Anyway, see you over in the argument section ;)

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If you think about it norton, and be honest, you would realize that the debate is not really winnable from either side. And here's why.

1) One side claims truth, fact, and empirical evidence. While they also claim that truth is relative, absolutes don't exist, and less than 5% of the 100s of claimed processes are actually observable (meeting a criteria of being empirical). And they believe in naturalism only.

2) While the other side believes in a supreme supernatural being that has supernatural powers. And that all things not explainable naturally is explainable supernaturally.

3) And the disagreement is naturalism vs supernaturalism. Each denies the other to some degree. And one side thinks that if anyone would dare to even believe in an intelligent supreme being. They are mentally disturbed.

4) While the other side believes that anyone whom denies their God is working for the Devil.

And basically, if you are to truly believe in either side. It requires you to be at odds with anyone whom opposes it.

Is there equal ground? Nope. Because in order to meet halfway, both sides have to compromise somewhat to do it.

So what would you say should be the goal in debating an un-winnable argument?

#6 nortonthe2nd

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Posted 23 August 2010 - 02:49 PM

Hello Norton… And welcome to the forum. I do hope you learn here, no matter the out come. Aand as long as you read and adhere to the forum rules, I doubt you even have to worry about your horns and tail. :)

One point though; How can one keep an “open mind” and not have at least a modicum of mind changing experiences? To deny such, means you either are not keeping an open mind, or indeed already know everything there is to know, and therefore are already right about everything, and need not change the perfect mind.

Just curious…

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Hey Ron. What do you mean by mind changing experience? Generally, if I cant defend a belief in an argument, I reevaluate that belief. That's the whole point of debate, imo. Is that what you meant?

Hi nortonthe2nd! Welcome from another Oregon atheist!  B)

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Hi :) . I'm down around the Eugene area. I was glancing through the intro threads, and it looks like there's a surprising number of people from Oregon here.

If you think about it norton, and be honest, you would realize that the debate is not really winnable from either side. And here's why.

1) One side claims truth, fact, and empirical evidence. While they also claim that truth is relative, absolutes don't exist, and less than 5% of the 100s of claimed processes are actually observable (meeting a criteria of being empirical). And they believe in naturalism only.

2) While the other side believes in a supreme supernatural being that has supernatural powers. And that all things not explainable naturally is explainable supernaturally.

3) And the disagreement is naturalism vs supernaturalism. Each denies the other to some degree. And one side thinks that if anyone would dare to even believe in an intelligent supreme being. They are mentally disturbed.

4) While the other side believes that anyone whom denies their God is working for the Devil.

And basically, if you are to truly believe in either side. It requires you to be at odds with anyone whom opposes it.

Is there equal ground? Nope. Because in order to meet halfway, both sides have to compromise somewhat to do it.

So what would you say should be the goal in debating an un-winnable argument?

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Well, it's not really un-winnable, it's just hard (or impossible) to find a compromise. Since reality is inherently objective, only one position can be right, so a compromise is pretty much meaningless anyway. I can actually see a sort of middle ground in deism, since one of the only things science doesnt and may never have an explanation for is the beginning of the universe. That definitely doesnt agree with the Bible, though, so it wouldnt be acceptable to a lot of people.

#7 Ron

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Posted 23 August 2010 - 03:41 PM

Hey Ron. What do you mean by mind changing experience? Generally, if I cant defend a belief in an argument, I reevaluate that belief. That's the whole point of debate, imo. Is that what you meant?

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Your statement was basically self defeating… That was what I meant… I understand what you were trying to say, and pretty much agree. But, the way you said it was basically oxymoronic in the way it was strung togeather.

Before I get started, I'd like to say that my main purpose here is learning.

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In my opinion, the only way to keep a truly open mind is to test your beliefs against opposing ones, so that's what I hope to do.

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I dont expect to change any minds here, and I'm somewhat doubtful that anyone will change mine, but we wont know until we try, will we?

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Basically, what you’re saying is “I want to learn”, “I have an open mind”, but “No one will change my mind”…

Again, I don’t think that’s what you meant, but that’s how it’s written.

Hi :) . I'm down around the Eugene area. I was glancing through the intro threads, and it looks like there's a surprising number of people from Oregon here.

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Eugene is a beautiful area, as is most of Oregon; green and mountainous. It’s like Redding, only greener.

#8 nortonthe2nd

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Posted 23 August 2010 - 03:47 PM

Basically, what you’re saying is “I want to learn”, “I have an open mind”, but “No one will change my mind”…

Again, I don’t think that’s what you meant, but that’s how it’s written.


Ah, I see. I didnt mean for sure no one will change my mind, I just doubt that anyone will change my mind. I'm not an expert on evolution or anything, but I have a pretty good layperson's understanding of it, and it seems pretty solid. Like I said, though, you never know.

#9 Ron

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Posted 23 August 2010 - 04:14 PM

Ah, I see. I didnt mean for sure no one will change my mind, I just doubt that anyone will change my mind. I'm not an expert on evolution or anything, but I have a pretty good layperson's understanding of it, and it seems pretty solid. Like I said, though, you never know.

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As I said, that's what I thought you meant. :)

#10 ikester7579

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Posted 23 August 2010 - 09:55 PM

Well, it's not really un-winnable, it's just hard (or impossible) to find a compromise. Since reality is inherently objective, only one position can be right, so a compromise is pretty much meaningless anyway. I can actually see a sort of middle ground in deism, since one of the only things science doesnt and may never have an explanation for is the beginning of the universe. That definitely doesnt agree with the Bible, though, so it wouldnt be acceptable to a lot of people.

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Why compromise? Are you not on a quest for truth? Conformity is not science.

#11 nortonthe2nd

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Posted 23 August 2010 - 10:23 PM

Why compromise? Are you not on a quest for truth? Conformity is not science.

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That's what I said. I accept the possibility of a deistic god, because at the moment we cant say how the universe began, although I dont view it as likely. Therefore, I could compromise with someone who did view it likely, as long as we agree that after the universe began, the creator didnt interfere with it at all.

#12 Ron

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Posted 24 August 2010 - 03:42 AM

That's what I said. I accept the possibility of a deistic god, because at the moment we cant say how the universe began, although I dont view it as likely. Therefore, I could compromise with someone who did view it likely, as long as we agree that after the universe began, the creator didnt interfere with it at all.

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Using that “logic” as a jumping off point, I would have to point out that “Jesus Christ” is a major interference (using your word) by the (Non)deistic (i.e. "Deist" definition) God. Therefore we would have to disagree. And I didn’t even have to point to historical, current or personal answered prayer to refute your claim.

And before you attempt to easily discount Jesus as Historical, or as the Christ, you may want to read:

http://www.evolution...topic=1957&st=0




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